[07:38] <pitti> Good morning everyone
[07:38] <pitti> I hope you had some nice Easter holidays
[07:44] <seb128> hey pitti, how are you?
[07:45] <seb128> how was your w.e?
[07:50] <pitti> seb128: it was great, thanks! four day visit to Dresden again
[07:50] <pitti> had some nice bday celebrations on Friday, and our traditional big family hike on Sunday was mostly sunny too
[07:50] <seb128> ah nice
[07:51] <pitti> you too I hope, all things considered?
[07:51] <seb128> no trip to France for us this time that was not very pratical this year
[07:51] <seb128> but oh well, next year :-)
[07:51] <seb128> yeah, everything fine
[07:51] <seb128> we mostly had a relaxing w.e, we went to watch a movie, a friend invited us for dinner on sunday, otherwise mostly relaxing
[07:51] <seb128> and some tennis playing in between since we didn't have much of the forecasted rain ;-)
[07:54] <willcooke> morning seb128 pitti
[07:56] <seb128> hey willcooke, how are you?
[07:56] <willcooke> meh, ya know
[07:58] <pitti> hey willcooke!
[08:02] <Laney> morning
[08:12] <pitti> hey Laney, how are you? enjoyed the Easter holidays?
[08:14] <didrocks> hey guys (sorry, was deep into some travis machinery)
[08:14] <davmor2> morning all
[08:16] <Laney> hey pitti
[08:16] <Laney> pitti: not bad, was in london on friday after the release so we took some time to be tourists
[08:16] <Laney> galleries, parks, coffee shops, book shops
[08:16] <Laney> then just mainly relaxed and did gardening for the other 3 days
[08:16] <Laney> happy birthday for friday :-)
[08:17] <Laney> hey didrocks hey davmor2
[08:17] <Laney> you ok?
[08:17] <pitti> Laney: thanks
[08:17] <davmor2> Laney: I'm in a better place
[08:17] <didrocks> quite lonely on Friday here, the rest of the week-end was ok, thanks
[08:17] <davmor2> Laney: had a nice weekend
[08:19] <Laney> davmor2: better like... telford?
[08:20] <Laney> didrocks: :(
[08:20] <Laney> sorry there was no 4 day weekend for you!
[08:21] <didrocks> well, that's the way to remember Seb's house isn't really in France :)
[08:21] <davmor2> Laney: yeah yeah something like that I was in shrewsbury in a caravan park for four days
[08:21] <davmor2> Laney: it was heaven
[08:21] <seb128> hey Laney!
[08:22] <seb128> oh, I forgot about pitti's birthday? :-(
[08:22] <seb128> pitti, sorry, happy birthday a bit late then!
[08:29] <Laney> hey seb128
[08:31] <pitti> seb128: merci beaucoup !
[08:37] <TheMuso> Hey EU folks. :)
[08:38] <seb128> hey TheMuso, how are you?
[08:39] <TheMuso> seb128: Hey there, I'm pretty well thanks. Yourself?
[08:40] <seb128> I'm good thanks!
[08:40] <seb128> had a nice long w.e
[08:51] <Laney> hey TheMuso
[08:52] <Laney> looks like gtk themes are messed up in firefox 52
[08:52] <Laney> at least on zesty
[08:52] <Laney> at least with ambiance ;-)
[08:52] <Laney> at least on my machine, ok!
[09:10] <Trevinho> Laney: you're the bug, you know :-)
[09:13]  * Laney attaches debugger to self
[09:44] <Mirv> hmm, on another thought, I think I was here even before 2012 so no particular reason why I wouldn't stay here :)
[09:56] <Sweetshark> moin
[09:56] <pitti> Sweetshark: "good" morning
[09:57] <Sweetshark> "snap election" in the UK announced in 20 minutes? I guess thats why the GBP is in free fall. I already wondered ...
[09:57] <Sweetshark> pitti: heya ;)
[10:01] <flexiondotorg> Morning desktopers
[10:07] <andyrock> morning
[10:12] <sil2100> Mirv: that's the spirit! ;)
[10:13] <chrisccoulson> hey Sweetshark
[10:57] <Laney> k, it's broken in a vm too
[10:57] <Laney> adwaita mostly works tho
[11:18] <xnox> seb128, i want to discuss gnome desktop too =)
[11:19] <xnox> Sweetshark, you say free fall.... and I see it jumping +0.85% against USD and +0.64% against EUR
[11:20] <xnox> still down compared with like a year and two years ago, but daily is looking good.
[11:44] <jbicha> good morning
[11:52] <xnox> Sweetshark, well, it first tanked before 11am and then surged up. Go figure.
[11:54] <Laney> hi jbicha
[11:59] <Sweetshark> xnox: yeah. the drop was about the 'surprise' no10 announce when the contents where still unknown.
[12:00] <Sweetshark> s/where/were/
[12:13] <flexiondotorg> jbicha Morning
[12:39] <jbicha> does anyone here have a keyboard with a calculator key with Ubuntu Unity 17.04?
[12:39] <jbicha> https://code.launchpad.net/~jbicha/unity-settings-daemon/fix-calculator-key/+merge/322673
[12:39] <jbicha> https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/2721
[13:01] <Trevinho> jbicha: I should have one...
[13:01] <Trevinho> but well, it's just about fake it otherwise
[13:16] <Trevinho> Laney: if i'd like to try landing something how it works now? Since we don't have A yet?
[13:20] <Trevinho> hi willcooke
[13:20] <willcooke> hey Trevinho
[13:20] <willcooke> seb128, I'm back from the passport office already \o/
[13:23] <simosx> The new NetworkManager has a "MAC address spoofing" feature to protect the privacy when connecting to public WiFis (https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/). Ubuntu 17.04 has this new NetworkManager. However, some USB WiFi adapters fail to work (cannot have their MAC addr changed), and affects users.
[13:24] <simosx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1681513
[13:26] <simosx> Upstream just changed the default recently, "Update-2017-01-25: with 1.6 release and newer, the default value changed from “permanent” to “preserve” [commit],[bug]" but this needs to pass to the Ubuntu 17.04 NetworkManager package.
[13:31] <seb128> willcooke, wb!
[13:32] <seb128> simosx, hey, thanks for the info
[13:32] <seb128> happyaron, ^
[13:36] <jbicha> Trevinho: thanks, otherwise, we can just have one of the guys affected verify it when it's accepted into -proposed
[13:39] <jbicha> thanks!
[13:49] <Laney> Why not just set the launch calculator shortcut to a different keybinding?
[13:49] <Laney> Renaming desktop files is totally awesome and risk free.
[13:57] <Laney> Trevinho: Upload it to zesty
[13:58] <Laney> or if it's not for SRU, then wait
[13:58] <jbicha> Laney: he already pushed it to zesty/unapproved
[13:58] <Laney> That's fine.
[13:58] <Laney> I was responding to the question.
[14:01] <Trevinho> Laney: ok, I've SRU material... then it's fine.
[14:01] <Laney> Yeah, it should get copied over once the next release exists
[14:50] <seb128> brb, going back from coffee place
[14:58] <andyrock> are we going to get the pre-meeting?
[15:00]  * Laney is
[15:02] <ryanleesipes> 30 min to meeting, right willcooke ?
[15:02] <willcooke> ryanleesipes, yeah
[15:03] <ryanleesipes> Good deal.
[15:09] <Laney> my firefox froze
[15:09] <Laney> the whole browser
[15:10] <Laney> MOZILLAAAAAAAAAA
[15:10] <Laney> now I think compiz is crashing when force quitting it
[15:10] <Laney> TREVINHOOOOOOOOOOO
[15:11] <Laney> oh no, the whole machine is down
[15:11] <Laney> wtf
[15:11] <davmor2> Laney: I'm betting on systemd-udevd
[15:11] <jbicha> Laney: if you get tired of Unity crashing, you could switch to GNOME to get some variety in your crashes :|
[15:12] <Laney> I'm guessing it was OOMing or something
[15:13] <Laney> Apr 18 16:09:36 raleigh.local kernel: kernel BUG at /build/linux-dfiP6t/linux-4.10.0/include/linux/swapops.h:129!
[15:13] <Laney> Apr 18 16:09:36 raleigh.local kernel: invalid opcode: 0000 [#1] SMP
[15:20] <gQuigs> Laney: oh, you have that fun bug to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1674838
[15:28] <mhall119> willcooke: I'm here watching if you need me
[15:28] <willcooke> hey mhall119
[15:28]  * isantop waves hi to mhall119 
[15:28] <mhall119> o/
[15:29] <jbicha> o/
[15:29] <Laney> gQuigs: yeah, thx, I heard some other people talking about that one too
[15:30] <willcooke> hey jbicha
[15:30] <willcooke> Let's use the meeting bot to keep notes...
[15:30] <seb128> ok, it's meeting time!
[15:30] <seb128> how do we handle that one? ;-)
[15:30] <willcooke> #startmeeting GNOME as the desktop
[15:30] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Apr 18 15:30:42 2017 UTC.  The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:30] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:31] <willcooke> Who is interesting in getting involved in the meeting?
[15:31] <andyrock> hey
[15:31] <flexiondotorg> o/
[15:31] <jbicha> o/
[15:31] <Trevinho> Hola
[15:31]  * kenvandine waves
[15:31] <isantop> willcooke: There are a bunch of System76 people who are interested
[15:31] <seb128> yeah, let's maybe that with a round of "raise your hand" for those who have things they want to say/discuss
[15:31] <seb128> ?
[15:31]  * Laney is here
[15:31] <seb128> that feels like the sort of meeting that is going to get out of hands :p
[15:31] <andyrock> o/
[15:31] <ryanleesipes> Hehe
[15:32] <seb128> _o/
[15:32] <ryanleesipes> SYSTEM76 sound off!
[15:32] <isantop> o/
[15:32] <mhall119> o/
[15:32] <seb128> shrug
[15:32] <seb128> that's a lot of people :p
[15:32] <seb128> everybody get a one line summary of what topic you want to discuss?
[15:32] <ryanleesipes> o/
[15:32] <mhall119> I'll be brief :)
[15:32] <seb128> let's give us 3 min to write that
[15:32] <seb128> then we go round pasting those
[15:32] <seb128> then we can find out common points
[15:32] <seb128> or organize
[15:33] <seb128> wdyt?
[15:33] <willcooke> +1
[15:33] <alex285> is the meeting done, or starting?
[15:33] <willcooke> alex285, starting
[15:33] <alex285> awesome thanks!
[15:34] <ahayzen> o/
[15:35] <mhall119> seb128: ready for us to paste them?
[15:35] <seb128> if you want
[15:35] <mhall119> With both my Community Council and Community Manager hats on, I just wanted to let everybody know that they can contact me directly at mhall119@ubuntu.com if they have any questions or concerns (non-technical ones, for technical talk to the desktop team) during the transition from Unity.
[15:35] <ryanleesipes> Do we have an Etherpad or something?
[15:35] <seb128> thanks
[15:35] <seb128> no, we have a bot that record
[15:36] <ryanleesipes> That would be better for collecting questions/comments
[15:36] <seb128> but feel free to start one
[15:36] <mhall119> ryanleesipes: the meetingology bot will record stuff and generate meeting minutes
[15:36] <Trevinho> Etherpad done: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA
[15:36] <cimi> cimi hi guys
[15:36] <tkamppeter> hi
[15:36] <seb128> jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, feel free to paste your summary when you have it
[15:36] <ryanleesipes> https://etherpad.gnome.org/p/ubuntu-desktop-meeting
[15:36] <ryanleesipes> Oh nevermind
[15:37] <ryanleesipes> lol Trevinho
[15:37] <ogra_> w3m is the only way forward anyway :) everything else is bloat (SCNR)
[15:37] <ryanleesipes> Use the top one, not mind
[15:37] <ogra_> err
[15:37] <ogra_> s&/w3m/wmx/ (damn)
[15:37] <mhall119> seb128: can you tell meetingology about hte etherpad link?
[15:37]  * mhall119 has forgotten meetingology syntax already
[15:38] <isantop> I'm personally concerned about the out-of-box experience GNOME delivers by default.
[15:38] <ryanleesipes> Albeit I can't get into the Ubuntu etherpad
[15:38] <seb128> mhall119, no, willcooke is the one who started the meeting/control the bot
[15:38] <seb128> also no idea how to do that?
[15:38] <seb128> link ...?
[15:38] <mhall119> #link maybe
[15:38] <seb128> willcooke, ^
[15:38] <willcooke> #link http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA
[15:38] <mhall119> or LINK:
[15:39] <Trevinho> LINK: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA
[15:39] <seb128> jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, no topics from you then?
[15:39]  * Trevinho fails
[15:39] <ryanleesipes> Either you have not been granted access to this resource or your entitlement has timed out. Please try again.
[15:39] <willcooke> maybe....
[15:39] <willcooke> #topic Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA
[15:39] <jbicha> well, I'd like to follow up on isantop's topic
[15:39] <seb128> isantop, sorry, just saw your line from earlier
[15:39] <mhall119> willcooke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology for reference
[15:39] <ahayzen> seb128, are we putting in the etherpad or here ... ?
[15:39] <jbicha> also I assume it's ok now to drop Unity-specific patches that hold GNOME back? My specific example is Shotwell which is held at a git snapshot for a year because no one has stepped up to rewrite its UOA code.
[15:39] <gQuigs> ryanleesipes: looks like a timeout, login and log back in to Ubuntu SSO (login.ubuntu.com)
[15:39] <seb128> ahayzen, either work
[15:39] <seb128> just pick one
[15:39] <seb128> so we can get moving
[15:39] <seb128> :-)
[15:40] <seb128> so mine
[15:40] <seb128> want to discuss goals/how we move z+1 to GNOME and re-active the channel/sync up the work between us; don't want to discuss today the technical details/choices of components/etc
[15:40] <willcooke> +1 on avoiding technical topics for now
[15:40] <willcooke> My topics:
[15:40] <willcooke> How should the Ubuntu GNOME team and the Ubuntu Desktop team resolve conflicts?
[15:40] <willcooke> Expected timescales to see GNOME become the default shell
[15:40] <seb128> the details should be done in a meeting properly scheduled where we have the people we need, etc
[15:40] <ryanleesipes> I still can't get in
[15:40] <mhall119> where will technical topics be discussed? later IRC meetings or mailinglist?
[15:40] <ryanleesipes> I'll just ask my questions in here, and perhaps someone else can plug them into Etherpad
[15:41] <mhall119> ryanleesipes: PM me your LP nick
[15:41] <seb128> we are going to have another meeting
[15:41] <seb128> but mailing list is always fine for questions if anyone has some
[15:41] <ryanleesipes> It's just ryanleesipes mhall119
[15:41] <seb128> or for raising topics
[15:42] <jackpot51> mhall119: jackpot51 on the pad pls
[15:42] <mhall119> ryanleesipes: you should have etherpad access now, might need to log out and back in
[15:42] <ryanleesipes> I got in
[15:42] <mhall119> jackpot51: also added, if anyone else needs access to the etherpad please PM me your launchpad nick
[15:43] <seb128> k, let's see we have enough topics to touch a few of those
[15:43] <seb128> willcooke, how do you want to process?
[15:43] <ryanleesipes> Alright, I'm in
[15:43] <willcooke> I'll go through the pad one by one and set the topic, starting at the top...
[15:43] <seb128> hum
[15:44] <flexiondotorg> My questions: Will AppMenu and Indicator continue to be supported?
[15:44] <willcooke> actually, let's start with...
[15:44] <k1l> what is the goal of the "new" gnome desktop: ship a vanilla gnome-shell or keep the workflow/look at the old unity way (with extensions or maybe patches for globalmenu)?
[15:44] <willcooke> #topic Dropping Unity specific patches
[15:44] <willcooke> jbicha, want to kick that off?
[15:45] <seb128> let's start with this one because it leads to how we set up collaboration I think
[15:45] <jbicha> How are we handling Unity-specific patches?
[15:45] <seb128> or organize the work
[15:45] <jbicha> do we just keep them if they aren't holding us back?
[15:45] <seb128> yes please
[15:45] <seb128> well no
[15:46] <seb128> my stand would be that we should go through the packages and remove patches that we feel like are not needed anymore
[15:46] <seb128> but we shouldn't do that as individuals
[15:46] <seb128> like I would try to suggest we set up a per-review rule
[15:46] <seb128> and use the channel to request reviews
[15:46] <mhall119> is there a definitive list of these packages/patches?
[15:46] <seb128> so nobody takes an unilateral decision
[15:47] <seb128> and we resume team work/channel activity
[15:47] <seb128> jbicha, wdyt?
[15:47] <seb128> it's probably fine to drop patches for uoa/menubars/csd etc, but maybe not some others like typeahead in nautilus
[15:47] <seb128> if we just go "open gate mode" it's going to be cahotic at best
[15:47] <jbicha> so, what I hear you saying is case-by-case but let's discuss when we do it to make sure there's concensus
[15:47] <seb128> what do others thing?
[15:48] <seb128> think
[15:48] <jbicha> ironically, typeahead is probably the first to go as we've already discussed :|
[15:48] <seb128> yeah, maybe not the best example
[15:48] <Laney> nautilus isn't a good example because we already separately discussed dropping that
[15:48] <seb128> finne
[15:48] <Laney> don't know what would be atm
[15:48] <Laney> maybe something
[15:48] <gQuigs> are we ok with breakage on Unity to get Gnome working better?
[15:48] <seb128> please don't nitpick on stupid examples
[15:48] <mhall119> seb128: would it be easier to start with "no patches" and go through them to add back in ones you want to keep, or start with "all patches" and go through them to see which ones to drop?
[15:48] <Laney> hey
[15:48] <seb128> it's just the first one I had coming
[15:49] <ryanleesipes> Agree with mhall119
[15:49] <ryanleesipes> on starting with no patches
[15:49] <Laney> I'm sure there will be some things to keep
[15:49] <mhall119> ryanleesipes: that was a question, you can't agree with it :-P
[15:49] <Laney> looking at gtk there are some
[15:49] <ryanleesipes> I can
[15:49] <ryanleesipes> It's my right
[15:49] <seb128> keeping unity working in universe is a good point
[15:49] <seb128> we are not going to keep intrusive UI patches for apps I think
[15:50] <Trevinho> there are some unity patches though, that might be convenient to keep (if not causing too much hassle) for people who wants to stick to unity7 on 18.04 I think
[15:50] <seb128> but we should probably keep the patches that don't cost much like if we have gtk changes to make appmenu work
[15:50] <Laney> hmm
[15:50] <Laney> don't know about that
[15:50] <flexiondotorg> Keeping patches has the advantage that it helps identify what we might desire to upstream.
[15:50] <Laney> we might end up creating a crappy experience
[15:50] <seb128> k
[15:50] <seb128> maybe let's stay our of technical details today?
[15:50] <ryanleesipes> Will anyone be maintaining Unity7?
[15:50] <Trevinho> like there are patches for headerbar to make them to work well when maximized in unity, they shouldn't create problems
[15:50] <seb128> like just agree on big lines
[15:50] <seb128> like need-peer-reviews to drop patches
[15:50] <mhall119> ok, so can we get an action item assigned to somebody to start on a list of patches to keep/remove?
[15:51] <seb128> no single person who go and clean/upload by themself
[15:51] <Trevinho> ryanleesipes: as xenial is there for a while, I think it will need some basic support.
[15:51] <seb128> +1 or -1?
[15:51] <mhall119> then everyone else can +/-1 them
[15:51] <seb128> no
[15:51] <mhall119> +1 on working together to decide
[15:51] <seb128> do you plan to work on updating packages?
[15:51] <Trevinho> ryanleesipes: so, mostly high-prio bug fixes...
[15:51] <seb128> just curious
[15:51] <mhall119> me? no, you've seen what I do to .deb packages
[15:52] <mhall119> nobdoy wants that :)
[15:52] <seb128> k, you just seem to have strong preferences on how we organize ourselves
[15:52] <seb128> so I was wondering :p
[15:52] <mhall119> but I'd like to see someone take an action item to start a document or something for tracking that work
[15:52] <mhall119> for visibility
[15:53] <Laney> we have versions.html, just file a bug when you update a package and get a review on there?
[15:53] <seb128> +1
[15:53] <jbicha> seb128: I think we're in agreement with your general idea for peer review for dropping Unity-ish patches
[15:53] <Laney> although that might not have proper visibility of what needs doing
[15:53] <seb128> I would vote for normal mps (if vcs) or debdiff
[15:53] <willcooke> I think it's too early to list out which specifics we want to work on, we need to agree the right processes today and then the specifics can come later
[15:53] <seb128> and get a peer review
[15:53] <Laney> more so if we go to 3.26 ;-)
[15:53] <seb128> using the channel to request for reviews
[15:53] <seb128> willcooke, +1
[15:53] <mhall119> +1 willcooke
[15:54] <seb128> which is also why I said let's stay out of technical discussions today
[15:54] <seb128> like on wheter we keep supporting unity in universe
[15:54] <seb128> or specifics about patches
[15:54] <Laney> file bug / merge proposal, get review, upload
[15:54] <seb128> +1
[15:54] <flexiondotorg> +1 "using the channel to request for reviews"
[15:54] <seb128> ^ agreement on that?
[15:54] <jbicha> next topic?
[15:55] <willcooke> Ok
[15:55] <willcooke> So we're agreed that we will use LP reviews and the IRC channel to request reviews and discuss it there.
[15:56] <willcooke> So I'd like to move on to....
[15:56] <willcooke> #topic timescales
[15:56] <willcooke> How does end of April for the seeds to be updated sound?
[15:56] <seb128> I think step 1 is to update the seed to put GNOME on the iso instead of unity
[15:56] <seb128> that sounds a good target to me
[15:56] <Laney> Two things
[15:56] <mhall119> seb128: are you talking zesty+1?
[15:57] <seb128> we don't need technical details of leaf packages at first
[15:57] <jbicha> willcooke: unless we are ok with the seeds including universe packages, that won't actually be possible that quick
[15:57] <seb128> or maybe just gdm vs lightdm
[15:57] <Laney> 1. I made a PPA https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ubuntu/ubuntu-desktop-gnome
[15:57] <Laney> this lets us 1) break shit and not care that much
[15:57] <Laney> 2) include universe packages
[15:57] <seb128> Laney, do we build an iso using the ppa?
[15:57] <seb128> or what does it do?
[15:57] <Laney> if we upload the seed there and have a look
[15:57] <Laney> you don't (well, you could)
[15:57] <Laney> but I think that it would be good to do some iterations there first
[15:58] <Laney> unless you want to go full on "move fast and break things"
[15:58] <seb128> I wouldn't mind doing that
[15:58] <seb128> but what sort of changes do you expect in the ppa.?
[15:58] <gQuigs> 1) drop packages that are not going to be updated from CD (unity8, ubuntu web browser), but leave unity mostly intact?
[15:58] <seb128> is that to test the patches drops?
[15:58] <seb128> or the seed changes?
[15:58] <seb128> or...?
[15:58] <Laney> ubuntu-settings, the seeds, packages with dropped patches
[16:00] <seb128> hum
[16:00] <seb128> I don't have a srong opinion either way
[16:00] <seb128> others, wdyt?
[16:00] <seb128> ppa is fine to me
[16:00] <Laney> and we might find random upgrade problems before hitting the archive with them
[16:00] <jbicha> what's the proposal again?
[16:01] <mhall119> sounds safer to me, since people have gotten used to devel releases not massively breaking on them in recent years
[16:01] <seb128> using ppa vs destabilizing the archive for a bit
[16:01] <Laney> just test updating the ubuntu-meta + minimal set in a ppa before 'the switch'
[16:01] <attente> how will unity7 in universe still work if the patches are dropped?
[16:02] <ogra_> degraded ?
[16:02] <seb128> that's a topic we didn't touch yet
[16:02] <flexiondotorg> Laney are you proposing iso build that include this PPA in the short term?
[16:02] <seb128> and probably worth another meeting
[16:02] <mhall119> unity7 would still work, but apps won't integrate as well into it
[16:02] <gQuigs> can't we have both Unity and Gnome on the CD for at least a little bit during development (or am I missing what this conversation is about)
[16:02] <Laney> flexiondotorg: nah, mainly for upgrading
[16:02] <Trevinho> attente: I guess we can keep the most important ones
[16:02] <flexiondotorg> OK
[16:02] <seb128> jbicha, do you have a list of packages that need MIRed?
[16:02] <Trevinho> attente: but, integration is not much important
[16:02] <Trevinho> I'd try to keep them unless they don't create troubles for merging though
[16:03] <gQuigs> just like we had both Unity7 and 8 on Zesty image - I'm not saying we have to ship it, but for iterating to a new package set it makes it easier, right/
[16:03] <jbicha> seb128: not yet, but I can propose a partial list of MIR needs to our mailing list
[16:03] <seb128> jbicha, that would be nice
[16:04] <Laney> guess we'd need to have an initial proposal for leaf packages first
[16:04] <jbicha> there are several choices that will need to be discussed there (keeping shotwell for instance)
[16:04] <seb128> let's not discuss apps selection in a first round
[16:04] <seb128> first we get a working GNOME session with our apps
[16:04] <seb128> then we discuss inside the session
[16:04] <seb128> +1/-1?
[16:05] <Laney> that's fine, just saying that it impacts how many MIRs need to be done and when
[16:05] <flexiondotorg> +1
[16:05] <jbicha> yes, we can try to get a working GNOME session first then worry about the specific apps after
[16:05] <gQuigs> +1
[16:05] <seb128> Laney, yeah, good point
[16:05] <Laney> best to keep it lower at the start
[16:05] <seb128> let's see we do another meeting next week to discuss again
[16:05] <seb128> jbicha, can you do the required-minimal-MIR-set for then?
[16:06] <seb128> and let's use the ppa meanwhile
[16:06] <seb128> since archive is not open yet and we didn't figure out the details
[16:06] <seb128> let's say*
[16:06] <seb128> so it gives us
[16:06] <jbicha> seb128: yes you can assign me to propose an initial MIR list this week
[16:06] <seb128> - using peer review&channel to sync work
[16:06] <willcooke> thanks jbicha
[16:06] <seb128> - initial MIR list to be built by jbicha
[16:07] <seb128> - use the ppa from Laney to start
[16:07] <seb128> - another meeting next week when we review the MIR list and discuss some first tech details
[16:07] <Laney> yeah feel free to upload there often
[16:07] <seb128> is that a good summary?
[16:07] <willcooke> seb128, +1 and captured in the pad
[16:07] <seb128> anything people disagree with?
[16:07] <seb128> great
[16:07] <Laney> I have a second thing for this topic
[16:07]  * seb128 listens
[16:07] <Laney> what do you think about doing one of the early distro milestones
[16:07] <Laney> like say alpha 2?
[16:08] <flexiondotorg> +1
[16:08] <seb128> what's the point over testing dailys?
[16:08] <Laney> people will actually do it
[16:08] <seb128> they can actually test dailys as well
[16:08] <flexiondotorg> Get community testing around a known release.
[16:08] <Laney> I am aware they can
[16:08] <willcooke> It gives us a nice clear goal to work towards
[16:08] <seb128> but if you think it helps we can do it
[16:08] <Laney> but I've been observing milestones for a while and I know that people test the named ones and don't really test the daily ones
[16:08] <mhall119> we can do a coordinated public push for testing, either around a specific milestone or a specific daily
[16:08] <Laney> and it's a deadline
[16:09] <flocculant> Laney: I would concur - Xubuntu sees exactly that
[16:09] <seb128> when is a2 likely to be?
[16:09] <Laney> and the 'press' might care (if you care about that)
[16:09] <jbicha> last cycle there was only 1 Alpha and that worked well
[16:09] <seb128> do we have a schedule yet?
[16:09] <Laney> nope
[16:09]  * mhall119 volunteers to help spread the call for testing in the community
[16:09] <jbicha> we don't even have a name yet! ;)
[16:09] <Laney> but you can look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule for an idea
[16:09] <willcooke> "end of June" for A1
[16:09] <seb128> k, seems people are mostly in favor of it
[16:10] <Laney> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule might be easier to compare
[16:10] <jbicha> (Zesty Alpha 1 didn't happen)
[16:10] <willcooke> "end of July" for A2
[16:10] <seb128> so let's call that a decision
[16:10] <mhall119> Laney is right, the tech press will pickup and talk about the first milestone release with GNOME as the default
[16:10] <seb128> what's the goal?
[16:10] <seb128> I think we want to give it testing
[16:10] <Laney> jbicha: sure, but it will do if a flavour volunteers to do it
[16:10] <seb128> not press coverage yet at this point
[16:10] <mhall119> lots of eyeballs and bug reports
[16:10] <Laney> the timing for Z A1 sucked royally
[16:10] <seb128> having "it's still a rough experience" press isn't going to help
[16:11] <mhall119> seb128: we can message it as "first access, help us find all the bugs so we can fix them before release"
[16:11] <gQuigs> likely it will be advertised whenever gnome lands as the default in the nighties anyway, right?
[16:11] <seb128> I guess so
[16:11] <mhall119> gQuigs: nightlies don't usually get much attention
[16:12] <gQuigs> but the headline will be, first nightly with Gnome Shell as the default,  we should expect attention then too
[16:12] <mhall119> if you want to get a bunch of people testing and filing bugs, a milestone will help you
[16:12] <gQuigs> not saying to not do the alpha
[16:12] <ryanleesipes> We'll give nightlies attention
[16:12] <ryanleesipes> We already build them on the imaging server everyday
[16:12] <ryanleesipes> We can test them on hardware.
[16:12] <mhall119> ryanleesipes: well I know S76 will, I meant the wider press/community
[16:13] <seb128> k, so decision is to use alpha (2) milestone points to do a call for testing?
[16:13] <seb128> willcooke, Laney, ^
[16:13] <mhall119> +1 from me
[16:13] <jackpot51> I don't think the "wider press/community" is here...
[16:13] <Laney> That's cool for me
[16:13] <willcooke> +1
[16:13] <seb128> k, let's move on then
[16:13] <Laney> actually the main benefit for myself is the deadline :P
[16:13] <flexiondotorg> +1 Alpha 2 milestone
[16:13] <seb128> I believe we are working steadly without those
[16:13] <seb128> but if you guys see value in it that's fine to me
[16:13] <Laney> ok...
[16:14] <seb128> let's see how it goes
[16:14] <seb128> :-)
[16:14] <seb128> next topic?
[16:14] <willcooke> just looking at the questions.....
[16:14] <seb128> one thing we should discuss is the topics we want to put on the agenda for next week's meeting
[16:14] <seb128> and also decide on a slot for that meeting
[16:15] <willcooke> I'm skipping over the technical questions in that list, but happy to discuss after the meeting
[16:15] <seb128> I think one thing we need to discuss earlier is gdm vs lightdm because that''s needed for the iso
[16:15] <ryanleesipes> Just for the record, what is considered technical willcooke?
[16:15] <mhall119> are launchpad blueprints still used to plan and track work each release?
[16:15] <jbicha> seb128: mailing list for gdm discussion?
[16:15] <alex285> can we do questions after the meeting? because to be honest i;m not really following :/
[16:15] <willcooke> Let me speak to Robert re: lightdm and see what he can make next week and I'll put the word round
[16:15] <seb128> jbicha, list for discussions and trying to get to a conclusion during the meeting maybe?
[16:16] <seb128> willcooke, Laney ^ wdyt?
[16:16] <Laney> sure
[16:16] <Laney> I don't really understand what there is to discuss atm so someone who knows the issues should start it
[16:17] <Laney> (re the display manager)
[16:17] <seb128> I'm not sure
[16:17] <seb128> lightdm vs gdm seems one to me
[16:17] <jackpot51> What issues are there with GDM?
[16:17] <Laney> just that one
[16:17] <seb128> not sure how much gnome-shell relies on gdm and if lightdm can provide the same features
[16:17] <Laney> exactly
[16:17] <jbicha> right, we can't make a decision today without Robert's input anyway
[16:17] <seb128> that's probably one for robert_ancell
[16:17] <seb128> jackpot51, it's a complexe codebase and we like lightdm
[16:17] <mhall119> IIRC, lightdm had some work to add features a customer wanted, so it might impact commercial engagements within canonical
[16:17] <willcooke> Can someone kick that off on the mailing list, and I'll speak to Robert and ask him to comment there
[16:17] <gQuigs> ^^
[16:18] <seb128> I can do that
[16:18] <willcooke> thanks seb128
[16:18] <jackpot51> The lock screen is a bit broken in ubuntu-gnome in lightdm, I think
[16:18] <seb128> that could maybe be fixed
[16:18] <seb128> lightdm has guest session as well that we like
[16:18] <jackpot51> That appears to be the only issue
[16:18] <Laney> I would think our default position should be the upstream one (i.e. gdm), but let's see what the issues are
[16:18] <seb128> there is work either way, but we need robert_ancell for that discussion
[16:18] <Laney> we'd want to re-develop the guest session feature there
[16:18] <Laney> ya
[16:18] <gQuigs> just curious, how much does dropping lightdm affect other flavors?
[16:18] <Laney> let's do that
[16:18] <ryanleesipes> Why ship it when that is part of GNOME's effort? It'll only create problems in the future
[16:18] <andyrock> i can take a look to the lokscreen issue in case
[16:19] <jackpot51> Who uses the guest session feature?
[16:19] <gQuigs> will investiage that, and the enterprise changes for the ML
[16:19] <seb128> we created lightdm for a reason and that reason might still be partially true
[16:19] <gQuigs> jackpot51: I love the guest session feature
[16:19] <seb128> anyway that's not a topic of today
[16:19] <seb128> another topic?
[16:19] <Laney> I'm sure it is
[16:20] <Laney> gdm keeps a session running afaik ;-)
[16:20] <jackpot51> We could solve this by having a "guest" user added to the system...
[16:20] <seb128> oh right, o_gra complained about that some days ago
[16:20] <Laney> just referring to the 'light' part
[16:20] <willcooke> Ok, so we'll follow up on the ML for lightdm / gdm discussions
[16:20] <Laney> anyway, that's for the thread
[16:20] <seb128> moving on
[16:20] <willcooke> Next topic...
[16:20] <seb128> next?
[16:21] <willcooke> jbicha would like to talk about...
[16:21] <willcooke> #topic Out Of Box
[16:21] <jbicha> I have read thousands of comments in the past 2 weeks. Some people like GNOME. Some think it could be a lot better if there were a few tweaks (like shipping a left-hand Dock like Unity). Some hate GNOME.
[16:21] <jbicha> I think we could reach some of the 3rd group if we can help out the 2nd group.
[16:21] <seb128> that might be a topic for the better organized meeting when we have robert, tim, etc
[16:21] <jbicha> But the GNOME design and Shell maintainers aren't really interested in adding the option of an always visible dock.
[16:22] <seb128> is there extensions we can point users to for that?
[16:22] <jbicha> …ok, it's a controversial topic but a lot of people wondering what Ubuntu's approach will be
[16:22] <gQuigs> Dash to dock (using it now)
[16:22] <mhall119> multiple
[16:22] <seb128> we don't know yet :p
[16:22] <seb128> afaik, step 1 is to go vanilla GNOME
[16:22] <seb128> step 2 is to read feedback from our users
[16:22] <seb128> step 3 is to see where we go from there
[16:23] <seb128> willcooke, right?
[16:23] <Laney> if we wanted to, is it hard to seed extensions?
[16:23] <willcooke> well....
[16:23] <Laney> is it a gsettings override or what?
[16:23] <seb128> jbicha, ^ do you know?
[16:23] <jbicha> we actually already have feedback from people who have tried Ubuntu GNOME
[16:23] <willcooke> I'm very interested in gathering evidence to support the argument for pre-installed extensions.
[16:23] <flexiondotorg> seb128 What do you think step 1 and 2 will both be in the 17.10 dev cycle?
[16:23] <k1l> there are extensions already packaged to debian/ubuntu
[16:23] <seb128> jbicha, are those people who want GNOME or who want Ubuntu?
[16:23] <mhall119> seb128: well part of that will depend on what Canonical is willing to invest, shipping extensions by default means you're responsible for keeping them working
[16:23] <gQuigs> Laney: I don't think so, it's just a package
[16:23] <Trevinho> And.... Not break the experience for ubuntu gnome users, by injecting extensions there too maybe
[16:23] <Laney> I know you can package them
[16:23] <jackpot51> mhall119: Both
[16:23] <jbicha> hmm, I think it's just an enabled-extensions gsettings key which could work for a new default install but might not work as well for upgrades
[16:24] <seb128> mhall119, do you have an answer to that?
[16:24] <gQuigs> Laney: many are already packaged
[16:24] <Laney> I know
[16:24] <mhall119> seb128: no, that's something Will probably needs to get an official answer on internally
[16:24] <mhall119> if he doesn't already know, he might
[16:24] <gQuigs> oh, sorry
[16:24] <alex285> regarding extensions it would be super great if you could talk with GNOME people and we could had them included inside G-C-C, as plugin at least
[16:24] <Laney> but never mind, jbicha answered
[16:24] <mhall119> seb128: I just don't want to set the expectation that it's an option if it's not
[16:25] <ogra_> well ... you will likely also not go with the default settings of these extensiona
[16:25] <ogra_> *extensions
[16:25] <jbicha> org.gnome.shell enabled-extensions
[16:25] <Laney> k, that's easy enough
[16:25] <ogra_> so there is more
[16:25] <gQuigs> ogra_: very true
[16:25] <Laney> I'm guessing most of them will also be gsettings for configuration
[16:25] <k_alam> @alex285 It has been discussed before.....they don't want anything extra in gcc
[16:25] <meetingology> k_alam: Error: "alex285" is not a valid command.
[16:25] <ogra_> Laney, yeah
[16:25] <Laney> we know how to do that for default / new installs, it's trivial
[16:25] <seb128> jbicha, imho it's too early to know where we go on that
[16:25] <Laney> so not a big worry technically
[16:25] <Laney> more of a policy thing
[16:26] <jbicha> yes, the good extensions use gsettings for their settings
[16:26] <ogra_> and we only want good extensions anyway ;)
[16:26] <jbicha> ok, we can push that decision off to later
[16:26] <Laney> Probably nto that controversial to go vanilla by default
[16:26] <seb128> I would start by that
[16:26] <mhall119> jbicha: does Ubuntu GNOME currently ship any extensions by default?
[16:26] <jackpot51> dash to dock does not use gsettings
[16:26] <Laney> but maybe it's an interesting thing to talk about how we'd make any future decision now
[16:26] <seb128> and adjust if we feel it's needed
[16:26] <mhall119> or is it vanilla GNOME shell?
[16:27] <ogra_> jackpot51, well, thats surely fixable
[16:27] <isantop> mhall119: It's very vanilla
[16:27] <willcooke> As jbicha commented, lots of people have expressed an desire for particular extensions.  So I will gather up all of those comments and try to come to a conclusion about what people want.  Then I will report back here and we can discuss further
[16:27] <Source0f1> Regarding extensions, I think user-friendliness is different than user-familiarity or user-preference, yeah?
[16:27] <jbicha> mhall119: no, Ubuntu GNOME historically was quite close to vanilla GNOME, but we weren't aiming for the millions of Ubuntu users either
[16:27] <Trevinho> in case I guess we can also develop or contribute to extensions... but it's all dependent on how we want Ubuntu desktop to differ from vanilla, as said above.
[16:27] <Trevinho> so the tech point is not really a problem here.
[16:28] <Laney> nod
[16:28] <Laney> ok, so willcooke nicely volunteered to wade into the world of internet comments
[16:28] <mhall119> he'll be missed
[16:28] <mhall119> :)
[16:29] <seb128> thanks willcooke
[16:29] <jbicha> I think one important point is that we have an opportunity to make more a break with the past now; for instance if we add a left Dock for 18.04, users might be unhappy about us removing it later
[16:29] <seb128> imho in any case we need to get the session working first to get a feel how it is to use
[16:29] <Laney> yeh
[16:29] <jbicha> next topic?
[16:29] <Trevinho> jbicha: is also true that.... Users might be unhappy because we remove it...
[16:29] <Laney> and they need to be able to try it to know what they don't like
[16:30] <jbicha> yes, that reasoning works both ways
[16:30] <mhall119> so is the decision to get a working vanilla GNOME shell first, and they decide where to go from there?
[16:30] <jbicha> we can always make changes after 17.10 before 18.04 too
[16:30] <Laney> indeed
[16:30] <mhall119> jbicha: good point
[16:31] <willcooke> #topic Any Other Business
[16:31] <Laney> k, so I just want to mention the gnome-initial-setup thing they have
[16:31] <Laney> I installed ubuntu-gnome-desktop in a VM and got that on first login after rebooting
[16:31] <mhall119> can the desktop team get in touch with the docs team? This change is going to require more than the normal amount of updates for them and they're already understaffed
[16:31] <Laney> we might want to think about how much we want to use that
[16:32] <Laney> and how it interacts with upgrades and the installer
[16:32] <Laney> not necessarily something to discuss now, but worth thinking about for the next time maybe
[16:32]  * willcooke adds it to the "next meeting" section
[16:32]  * Laney put it in there already
[16:32] <seb128> I don't know enough about that topic to have an opinion
[16:33] <Laney> right, that's why I mention it early
[16:33] <seb128> I also don't know much about ubiquity-oem
[16:33] <seb128> can they do the same things?
[16:33] <seb128> like pre-seeding configs
[16:33] <seb128> etc
[16:33] <seb128> ?
[16:33] <flexiondotorg> Given the tight time scales, what theme will be default at this stage?
[16:33] <Laney> I mean historically we've not had a new user welcome thing at all
[16:33] <seb128> also changing might impact oem workflows
[16:33] <seb128> so we should check with our oem team
[16:33] <ogra_> is ubiquity actually still a thing in 18.04 ?
[16:33] <aquarius_> (worth also discussing with the mate team their experiences with first-time-setup stuff as well; historically new user welcome screens were a bit of a no-no, but mate seem to have had quite some success with theirs, so could be re-visit-able)
[16:34] <ogra_> (i thought subiquity will be the replacement ... i'D expect it to grow GUI features within the next year)
[16:34] <seb128> ogra_, what is replacing it you think?
[16:34] <seb128> k
[16:34] <jackpot51> ubiquity should definitely remain
[16:34] <ogra_> but thats a question for foundations
[16:34] <seb128> I didn't read anything about that yet
[16:34] <jackpot51> Why would ubiquity be replaced?
[16:34] <Laney> kkkk, that's not something for now!
[16:35] <seb128> indeed not
[16:35] <gQuigs> I though subiquity was just server's ubiquity..  but no idea what the vision for it actually is
[16:35] <willcooke> ryanleesipes, would be good to get your feedback on that in the near future ^
[16:35] <seb128> not in our hands and not for today
[16:35] <seb128> we are over the hour, should we wrap? we have enough for today
[16:35] <seb128> we can discuss/reply to questions after the meeting still
[16:36] <seb128> if some people want to stick around for a bit
[16:36] <willcooke> Re: Themes.  What do Ambiance and Radiance look like today on GNOME shell?
[16:36] <ryanleesipes> hey willcooke sounds good, jackpot51 works with it more than I do (he is a 76er)
[16:36] <flexiondotorg> There has been talk of dropping aptdaemon for PackageKit on the ML. Is this still achievable in the 17.10 dev cycle given the extra work?
[16:36] <dmj_s76> oem install and firstboot working well for s76 is kinda critical
[16:36] <seb128> willcooke, good question...
[16:36] <Laney> flexiondotorg: I think we should do that
[16:36] <seb128> flexiondotorg, patches are welcome :-)
[16:36] <jbicha> willcooke: the Ubuntu themes don't look that great on GNOME
[16:36] <seb128> :-(
[16:36] <mhall119> willcooke had a question about resolving conflicts between the two teams
[16:36] <Laney> there's a problem with black corners
[16:36] <aquarius_> themes: they don't look great. I had to switch to adwaita because ambience didn't work all that well.
[16:36] <seb128> what conflicts?
[16:37] <seb128> aquarius_, do you have specifics/reported bugs?
[16:37] <mhall119> any potential conflicts, the question was how they would be resolved
[16:37] <seb128> discussion until consensus?
[16:37] <seb128> is there any other way? :p
[16:37] <mhall119> someone has to own decision making at some point
[16:38] <seb128> any team has disagreement
[16:38] <seb128> that's nothing new
[16:38] <Trevinho> It's also to be considered that ambiance/radiance have some stuff that is made for unity... So if we don't want the hassle of keeping the compatibility for both, we should probably rebase new themes on them and update the css to get them working nicely in shell
[16:38] <seb128> I don't think there is a change there
[16:38] <aquarius_> themes: windows didn't have borders, making it impossible to see where one ended and another began, and no drop shadows. However, that may be because I installed just gnome-shell at first, and not ubuntu-gnome-desktop^. (Which is why I didn't report it.)
[16:38] <jbicha> mhall119: I don't think we have trouble making decisions; we just aren't ready to make many decisions today in this meeting
[16:38] <seb128> we had some in the Ubuntu Desktop team
[16:38] <alex285> take into account that if you are going to do a new theme, you will need two themes. one for GTK3 one for GTK4 ..and ofc the GTK2
[16:38] <Trevinho> without touching what we've now (if not breaking unity7 experience for universe users is wanted)
[16:38] <seb128> GTK4 is post next-LTS
[16:39] <mhall119> jbicha: seb128: ok
[16:39] <Source0f1> Theme and brand mark play a part in marketing and product recognition. Would be good if new desktop look could still include Ubuntu logo and theme colors, in some way.
[16:39] <ogra_> it surely will
[16:40] <alex285> seb128:  but there will be apps that use GTK4, even installed as flatpak that lots Ubuntu users will do
[16:40] <Trevinho> Source0f1: agree
[16:40] <jbicha> seb128: nautilus 3.26 might use gtk4, so I'd push that to let's look at gtk4 several months from now
[16:40] <Trevinho> I think also reusing some of the SURU work could be nice..
[16:40] <ryanleesipes> That touches are my question
[16:40] <Source0f1> Still want people to know it's Ubuntu: user-friendly, reliable, etc. :)
[16:40] <Trevinho> If there's resources for some tuning in that sense
[16:40] <seb128> jbicha, can they mix gtk3 and gtk4 libs in a same process?
[16:40] <mhall119> alex285: IIRC the flatpak'd apps will include the theme they use, so that should be out of our hands anyway
[16:40] <seb128> that's going to be fun
[16:40] <ryanleesipes> Is Ubuntu proper going to engage with GNOME's Flatpak effort at all?
[16:40] <seb128> jbicha, imho it's not realistic to tackle before the LTS
[16:41] <seb128> we might need to stay on 3.24 then
[16:41] <alex285> mhall119: that is not correct. Flatpak will have access to /usr/share/themes
[16:41] <mhall119> oh
[16:41] <mhall119> ?
[16:41] <ryanleesipes> ^
[16:41] <ryanleesipes> It's in a patch
[16:41] <jackpot51> Do we even know if GTK4 themes will be incompatible with GTK3?
[16:41] <jbicha> seb128: if we use Adwaita, it's not a problem, but Nautilus doesn't have to be the same version as the rest of GNOME
[16:41] <dednick> @Trevinho: do we have any designers left to maintain suru?
[16:41] <meetingology> dednick: Error: "Trevinho:" is not a valid command.
[16:41] <jbicha> csoriano knows the risk of using gtk4 for Ubuntu
[16:42] <dednick> Trevinho: do we have any designers left to maintain suru?
[16:42] <seb128> jbicha, is that even realistic?
[16:42] <alex285> mhall119:   https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/114
[16:42] <jbicha> seb128: ?
[16:42] <Trevinho> dednick: not sure, but still, the suru guidelines are there, so creating a gtk theme inspired on that, is still feasible
[16:42] <Trevinho> dednick: of course, we'd miss resouces, and... Well, for that it could be  a problem.
[16:42] <seb128> jbicha, are they/we going to have gtk3/4 versions of all libs in the archive next cycle?
[16:42] <seb128> like librsvg
[16:43] <dednick> just dont want a theme looking half like suru, half like another i mean.
[16:43] <seb128> GTK4 is a complexe topic
[16:44] <Trevinho> yeah, sure... but that would be the same for any other theme that is not maintened by someone
[16:44] <seb128> if the GTK3 transition is any indication that's going to take several cycles to go through
[16:44] <jbicha> I don't believe librsvg uses gtk
[16:44] <seb128> not a topic for this cycle or next
[16:44] <willcooke> We have more than enough to be getting on with before the next meeting, so I think we should wrap this meeting.  Carry on the discussions afterwards, but we have enough to do for the next week now
[16:44] <jackpot51> https://blogs.gnome.org/desrt/2016/06/13/gtk-4-0-is-not-gtk-4/
[16:44] <jackpot51> The changes will be slower than you think
[16:44] <jbicha> seb128: all I'm saying is let's wait until later to decide about gtk4 instead of making a decision today
[16:44] <seb128> +1
[16:44] <willcooke> jbicha, +1
[16:44] <flexiondotorg> +1
[16:45] <willcooke> oki, ending here since that is an agreement
[16:45] <willcooke> #endmeeting
[16:45] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Apr 18 16:45:15 2017 UTC.
[16:45] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2017/ubuntu-desktop.2017-04-18-15.30.moin.txt
[16:45] <Laney> It'll be driven by a real world situation anyway
[16:45] <Laney> and that's a better place from which to make a decision
[16:45] <Laney> imho
[16:45] <seb128> jbicha, replace librsvg by libgnome-desktop in my question if you want
[16:45] <seb128> yeah
[16:45] <seb128> but imho we are going to realize that this transition is complexe
[16:46] <seb128> if anybody has doubt about that
[16:46] <jbicha> willcooke: thanks for leading the meeting
[16:47] <seb128> thanks everyone
[16:47] <seb128> good discussions
[16:47] <seb128> and decisions
[16:47] <alex285> so 17.10 will include GNOME by default, is that correct?
[16:47] <willcooke> alex285, yes
[16:47] <alex285> and people can give a test since the alpha?
[16:47] <willcooke> yes
[16:48] <mhall119> usual caveat that plans and reality aren't always on the same schedule
[16:48] <alex285> willcooke: will Ubuntu follow GNOME release schedule? 17.10 wll have 326?
[16:48] <alex285> os not discussed yet?
[16:48] <alex285> or*
[16:48] <jackpot51> Is there a decision on the name of zesty  + 1 ?
[16:48] <isantop> No
[16:49] <seb128> GNOME version is tbd
[16:49] <jbicha> jackpot51: just watch http://markshuttleworth.com/
[16:49] <seb128> step 1 is to go with the current version
[16:49] <seb128> without unity patches
[16:49] <seb128> then we can discuss what we update and not
[16:49] <jackpot51> seb128: +1
[16:49] <jbicha> the last 2 cycles we haven't really made a hard decision about GNOME version until after GNOME Freeze
[16:50] <seb128> we should probably do that
[16:50] <seb128> especially if GTK4 depends might come in the equation mid-cycle
[16:50] <jbicha> because there can be really big changes up until that point!
[16:52] <pipedream> way behind but 18:22 < gQuigs> Dash to dock (using it now)
[16:52] <mhall119> willcooke: seb128: will a summary or minutes of this meeting be send to the mailing list?
[16:52] <pipedream> dash2dock +1
[16:53] <seb128> is that needed?
[16:53] <seb128> that was more a work-sync meeting for people involved
[16:53] <seb128> not one for announcements or news
[16:53] <mhall119> well the announcement went there, so I would assume a summary would too
[16:53] <gQuigs> mhall119: it gets added the desktop team meetings page
[16:53] <seb128> we have logs as every week
[16:53] <ogra_> well, you made a ML announcement ... at least a link to the irc logs
[16:53] <seb128> shrug
[16:53] <willcooke> mhall119, would you take care of that for us?
[16:54] <mhall119> happy to
[16:54] <willcooke> I summarised the main points at the end of the pad (decisions etc)
[16:54] <ryanleesipes> GTK4 is too far to worry about.
[16:54] <mhall119> thanks willcooke
[16:55] <gQuigs> alright, so not super useful in this case - http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2017/ubuntu-desktop.2017-04-18-15.30.html
[16:56] <seb128> ryanleesipes, jbicha suggests that's not true and that nautilus might start using it this cycle, but yeah we should stay out of it until properly figured out
[16:56] <ryanleesipes> Based on my conversations, it seems like some of the questions/concerns would likely be addressed via a conversation with some upstream contributors.
[16:56] <ogra_> gQuigs, yeah, rather:  https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/04/18/%23ubuntu-desktop.html#t15:30
[16:56] <pipedream> willcooke: moar extensions https://paste.ubuntu.com/24408562/
[16:57] <willcooke> thanks pipedream
[16:58] <ogra_> pipedream, bah, no workspace-grid :P
[16:59] <seb128> reading questions from the pad
[16:59] <ogra_> (teh workspace handling of default gnome is rather awful for someone used to unity7 on a laptop with lots of workspaces)
[16:59] <seb128> ryanleesipes, the flatpak topic isn't discussed, our desktop is still based on deb and ubuntu is still pushing for snaps but I guess that's a topic we might have to look at maybe
[17:00] <seb128> ryanleesipes, I don't see us taking on flatpaks before the LTS
[17:00] <jbicha> ogra_: Unity disables the workspace switcher by default, right? if so, it makes sense to punt Better Workspaces to an extension a user can install after
[17:00] <seb128> tkamppeter, re printing, that's your domain, it would be welcome if you could play with the current GNOME settings and see if you think they can replace system-config-printer or if we still need it
[17:01] <seb128> tkamppeter, google cloud print is going to come from gnome-online-account
[17:01] <ogra_> jbicha, totally +1 ... i just dont want to be tied to a long stripe if i enable them :) (though i personally knwo how to change it, but many peole using thenm in rowas might not)
[17:01] <ogra_> *rows
[17:01] <willcooke> Trevinho, re your question about usings snaps for the shell - not at this point.  Lets get it working on debs first.
[17:01] <seb128> andyrock, hidpi, I read on some GNOME blog that non-int scaling factor is coming I think?
[17:02] <jbicha> seb128: my understanding is that non-int scaling is a GNOME 3.26 goal
[17:04] <willcooke> jbicha, re: email client - my 2 cents - yes, I think we should.  I get the impression that lots of people still like to work on email "offline".  Happy to gather evidence to support this argument though.
[17:05]  * Laney thinks so too
[17:07] <willcooke> For people interested in the theme discussions - please log bugs for current problems with Ambiance / Radiance.  (*nudge* aquarius_)
[17:08] <aruiz> jbicha, seb128 non-int scaling is most def going to be there for 3.26
[17:08] <aquarius_> I don't know if I can (now that I've installed ubutnu-gnome-desktop) but I'll try
[17:08] <willcooke> ncie, thanks aruiz.  (Also hi!!)
[17:08] <willcooke> *nice
[17:08] <aruiz> hi!
[17:09] <aruiz> willcooke, we're also trying to solve the screen sharing problem for 3.26 in Wayland, we are working on Pinos+some shell capabilities to solve that this will give us pretty much 0 regressions wrt X, help is welcome there, but we're not 100% sure we're going to make it on that one
[17:10] <aruiz> but fractional scaling and scale factor per display should be there for Wayland by 3.26
[17:10] <willcooke> aruiz, ack.  I'll add it to the list.  I think the first big stone is probably guest session in gdm (or not, as the case maybe), and then see how much time we've got left.
[17:11] <Source0f1> Has it been decided about Xorg/Wayland as default in 17.10 and beyond?
[17:11] <seb128> aruiz, hey, and thanks ;-)
[17:12] <willcooke> Source0f1, it'll be Wayland, and xwayland
[17:12] <jbicha> willcooke: ok well the follow-up is which email client? evo integrates better with GNOME and thunderbird will have a tough time with Mozilla changes next year
[17:12] <aruiz> seb128, you're welcome :-)
[17:13] <seb128> jbicha, is evo well maintained nowadays or still down to 1 rh maintainer?
[17:13] <Source0f1> Cool, thanks for the info willcooke.
[17:16] <jbicha> seb128: more than one person is making commits https://git.gnome.org/browse/evolution/log/
[17:17] <jbicha> it's another question to discuss on the list
[17:18] <willcooke> jbicha, added
[17:19] <andyrock> seb128: nice, didn't know
[17:47] <aruiz> jbicha, seb128 Evo is maintained mostly by Milan Chra, Tomas Popela is mostly working on the WebKit composer, but he does not do general maintenance
[17:47] <tkamppeter> seb128, OK, I will have a look. What do I have to do to fire up the GNOME settings app?
[17:49] <jbicha> tkamppeter: do you have gnome-shell installed? because it's probably best to log in to GNOME
[17:49] <tkamppeter> seb128, will gnome-online-account support both sides of Google Cloud Print, once sharing the local printers into the user's Google account, and second, using the printers in the user's Google account when printing from an application?
[17:50] <tkamppeter> jbicha,
[17:51] <tkamppeter> jbicha, I am installing it now ...
[17:51] <jbicha> you can run gnome-control-center outside of GNOME but it might not be fully functional without gnome-settings-daemon running
[17:53] <tkamppeter> OK.
[17:53] <tkamppeter> jbicha, with gnome-shell installed I can simply log out and log in again with GNOME?
[17:55] <chrisccoulson> rather than asking "which email client?", isn't a better question "do we need an email client in the default install?" ;)
[17:56] <jbicha> tkamppeter: yes
[17:56] <willcooke> chrisccoulson, that's where we started :)
[17:57] <jbicha> chrisccoulson: do you want to bring that up on the ubuntu-desktop list?
[18:06] <jbicha> or I can, and you can comment
[18:11] <willcooke> dinner time, night all
[18:19] <howefield> 3/exit
[19:56] <ovitters> can I be added to http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA user: ovitters  asked in privmsg but no response yet
[20:20] <flocculant> ovitters: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad - Join that team
[20:35] <ovitters> flocculant: thanks! done
[20:57] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Do you know if GNOME intentionally has dropped the GUI for setting a compose key? (bug #1683898)
[21:09] <jbicha> GunnarHj: it's in Tweak Tool>Typing; I don't know if it's "intentional" as much as it didn't fit in to the GNOME 3.24 redesign
[21:09] <jbicha> but you can ping GNOME about it if you're interested
[21:13] <jbicha> #gnome-hackers or #control-center on irc.gnome.org
[21:14] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Thanks for the tips; maybe I will. How could another option in that long list not fit the design? :( GNOME makes typing harder in various ways: Actively hides certain keyboard layouts, only IBus, and now this.)
[21:16] <jbicha> GunnarHj: it might just have been lack of time with the 3.24 release schedule
[21:16] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Let's hope so. ;)
[21:17] <jbicha> and it's also different from all the other lines in the new Keyboard panel so it might need Design attention
[21:18] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, I'm not on Ubuntu GNOME right now, so can't see what you just said.
[21:19] <robert_ancell> jbicha, does ubuntu GNOME handle mailto: links to gmail by default?
[21:19] <robert_ancell> (and other web email providers)
[21:20] <jbicha> robert_ancell: no
[21:27] <jbicha> but you can set Firefox>Preferences>Applications>mailto to Gmail or Yahoo! Mail
[21:28] <jbicha> for chromium, I guess there's an extension for that
[21:32] <ovitters> GunnarHj: gnome-tweak-tool should be installed by default btw
[21:33] <GunnarHj> ovitters: Thanks for letting me know; I'm not so familiar with Ubuntu GNOME yet.