[07:38] Good morning everyone [07:38] I hope you had some nice Easter holidays [07:44] hey pitti, how are you? [07:45] how was your w.e? [07:50] seb128: it was great, thanks! four day visit to Dresden again [07:50] had some nice bday celebrations on Friday, and our traditional big family hike on Sunday was mostly sunny too [07:50] ah nice [07:51] you too I hope, all things considered? [07:51] no trip to France for us this time that was not very pratical this year [07:51] but oh well, next year :-) [07:51] yeah, everything fine [07:51] we mostly had a relaxing w.e, we went to watch a movie, a friend invited us for dinner on sunday, otherwise mostly relaxing [07:51] and some tennis playing in between since we didn't have much of the forecasted rain ;-) [07:54] morning seb128 pitti [07:56] hey willcooke, how are you? [07:56] meh, ya know [07:58] hey willcooke! === xnox_ is now known as xnox [08:02] morning [08:12] hey Laney, how are you? enjoyed the Easter holidays? [08:14] hey guys (sorry, was deep into some travis machinery) [08:14] morning all [08:16] hey pitti [08:16] pitti: not bad, was in london on friday after the release so we took some time to be tourists [08:16] galleries, parks, coffee shops, book shops [08:16] then just mainly relaxed and did gardening for the other 3 days [08:16] happy birthday for friday :-) [08:17] hey didrocks hey davmor2 [08:17] you ok? [08:17] Laney: thanks [08:17] Laney: I'm in a better place [08:17] quite lonely on Friday here, the rest of the week-end was ok, thanks [08:17] Laney: had a nice weekend [08:19] davmor2: better like... telford? [08:20] didrocks: :( [08:20] sorry there was no 4 day weekend for you! [08:21] well, that's the way to remember Seb's house isn't really in France :) [08:21] Laney: yeah yeah something like that I was in shrewsbury in a caravan park for four days [08:21] Laney: it was heaven [08:21] hey Laney! [08:22] oh, I forgot about pitti's birthday? :-( [08:22] pitti, sorry, happy birthday a bit late then! [08:29] hey seb128 [08:31] seb128: merci beaucoup ! [08:37] Hey EU folks. :) [08:38] hey TheMuso, how are you? [08:39] seb128: Hey there, I'm pretty well thanks. Yourself? [08:40] I'm good thanks! [08:40] had a nice long w.e [08:51] hey TheMuso [08:52] looks like gtk themes are messed up in firefox 52 [08:52] at least on zesty [08:52] at least with ambiance ;-) [08:52] at least on my machine, ok! [09:10] Laney: you're the bug, you know :-) [09:13] * Laney attaches debugger to self [09:44] hmm, on another thought, I think I was here even before 2012 so no particular reason why I wouldn't stay here :) [09:56] moin [09:56] Sweetshark: "good" morning [09:57] "snap election" in the UK announced in 20 minutes? I guess thats why the GBP is in free fall. I already wondered ... [09:57] pitti: heya ;) [10:01] Morning desktopers [10:07] morning [10:12] Mirv: that's the spirit! ;) [10:13] hey Sweetshark [10:57] k, it's broken in a vm too [10:57] adwaita mostly works tho [11:18] seb128, i want to discuss gnome desktop too =) [11:19] Sweetshark, you say free fall.... and I see it jumping +0.85% against USD and +0.64% against EUR [11:20] still down compared with like a year and two years ago, but daily is looking good. === JanC_ is now known as JanC [11:44] good morning [11:52] Sweetshark, well, it first tanked before 11am and then surged up. Go figure. [11:54] hi jbicha === Topic unset by motie on #ubuntu-desktop [11:59] xnox: yeah. the drop was about the 'surprise' no10 announce when the contents where still unknown. [12:00] s/where/were/ [12:13] jbicha Morning [12:39] does anyone here have a keyboard with a calculator key with Ubuntu Unity 17.04? [12:39] https://code.launchpad.net/~jbicha/unity-settings-daemon/fix-calculator-key/+merge/322673 [12:39] https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/2721 [13:01] jbicha: I should have one... [13:01] but well, it's just about fake it otherwise [13:16] Laney: if i'd like to try landing something how it works now? Since we don't have A yet? [13:20] hi willcooke [13:20] hey Trevinho [13:20] seb128, I'm back from the passport office already \o/ [13:23] The new NetworkManager has a "MAC address spoofing" feature to protect the privacy when connecting to public WiFis (https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/). Ubuntu 17.04 has this new NetworkManager. However, some USB WiFi adapters fail to work (cannot have their MAC addr changed), and affects users. [13:24] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1681513 [13:24] Ubuntu bug 1681513 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 17.04: New privacy feature in NetworkManager stops some USB WiFi adapters from working (mac address randomization)" [Undecided,Confirmed] [13:26] Upstream just changed the default recently, "Update-2017-01-25: with 1.6 release and newer, the default value changed from “permanent” to “preserve” [commit],[bug]" but this needs to pass to the Ubuntu 17.04 NetworkManager package. [13:31] willcooke, wb! [13:32] simosx, hey, thanks for the info [13:32] happyaron, ^ [13:36] Trevinho: thanks, otherwise, we can just have one of the guys affected verify it when it's accepted into -proposed [13:39] thanks! [13:49] Why not just set the launch calculator shortcut to a different keybinding? [13:49] Renaming desktop files is totally awesome and risk free. [13:57] Trevinho: Upload it to zesty [13:58] or if it's not for SRU, then wait [13:58] Laney: he already pushed it to zesty/unapproved [13:58] That's fine. [13:58] I was responding to the question. [14:01] Laney: ok, I've SRU material... then it's fine. [14:01] Yeah, it should get copied over once the next release exists [14:50] brb, going back from coffee place [14:58] are we going to get the pre-meeting? [15:00] * Laney is [15:02] 30 min to meeting, right willcooke ? [15:02] ryanleesipes, yeah [15:03] Good deal. [15:09] my firefox froze [15:09] the whole browser [15:10] MOZILLAAAAAAAAAA [15:10] now I think compiz is crashing when force quitting it [15:10] TREVINHOOOOOOOOOOO [15:11] oh no, the whole machine is down [15:11] wtf [15:11] Laney: I'm betting on systemd-udevd [15:11] Laney: if you get tired of Unity crashing, you could switch to GNOME to get some variety in your crashes :| [15:12] I'm guessing it was OOMing or something [15:13] Apr 18 16:09:36 raleigh.local kernel: kernel BUG at /build/linux-dfiP6t/linux-4.10.0/include/linux/swapops.h:129! [15:13] Apr 18 16:09:36 raleigh.local kernel: invalid opcode: 0000 [#1] SMP === Lamesauce is now known as firedsam [15:20] Laney: oh, you have that fun bug to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1674838 [15:20] Ubuntu bug 1674838 in linux (Ubuntu) "kernel BUG at /build/linux-7LGLH_/linux-4.10.0/include/linux/swapops.h:129" [Medium,Confirmed] [15:28] willcooke: I'm here watching if you need me [15:28] hey mhall119 [15:28] * isantop waves hi to mhall119 [15:28] o/ [15:29] o/ [15:29] gQuigs: yeah, thx, I heard some other people talking about that one too [15:30] hey jbicha [15:30] Let's use the meeting bot to keep notes... [15:30] ok, it's meeting time! [15:30] how do we handle that one? ;-) [15:30] #startmeeting GNOME as the desktop [15:30] Meeting started Tue Apr 18 15:30:42 2017 UTC. The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [15:30] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: [15:31] Who is interesting in getting involved in the meeting? [15:31] hey [15:31] o/ [15:31] o/ [15:31] Hola [15:31] * kenvandine waves [15:31] willcooke: There are a bunch of System76 people who are interested [15:31] yeah, let's maybe that with a round of "raise your hand" for those who have things they want to say/discuss [15:31] ? [15:31] * Laney is here [15:31] that feels like the sort of meeting that is going to get out of hands :p [15:31] o/ [15:31] Hehe [15:32] _o/ [15:32] SYSTEM76 sound off! [15:32] o/ [15:32] o/ [15:32] shrug [15:32] that's a lot of people :p === alex__ is now known as alex285 [15:32] everybody get a one line summary of what topic you want to discuss? [15:32] o/ [15:32] I'll be brief :) [15:32] let's give us 3 min to write that [15:32] then we go round pasting those [15:32] then we can find out common points [15:32] or organize [15:33] wdyt? [15:33] +1 [15:33] is the meeting done, or starting? [15:33] alex285, starting [15:33] awesome thanks! [15:34] o/ [15:35] seb128: ready for us to paste them? [15:35] if you want [15:35] With both my Community Council and Community Manager hats on, I just wanted to let everybody know that they can contact me directly at mhall119@ubuntu.com if they have any questions or concerns (non-technical ones, for technical talk to the desktop team) during the transition from Unity. [15:35] Do we have an Etherpad or something? [15:35] thanks [15:35] no, we have a bot that record [15:36] That would be better for collecting questions/comments [15:36] but feel free to start one [15:36] ryanleesipes: the meetingology bot will record stuff and generate meeting minutes [15:36] Etherpad done: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA [15:36] cimi hi guys [15:36] hi [15:36] jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, feel free to paste your summary when you have it [15:36] https://etherpad.gnome.org/p/ubuntu-desktop-meeting [15:36] Oh nevermind [15:37] lol Trevinho [15:37] w3m is the only way forward anyway :) everything else is bloat (SCNR) [15:37] Use the top one, not mind [15:37] err [15:37] s&/w3m/wmx/ (damn) [15:37] seb128: can you tell meetingology about hte etherpad link? [15:37] * mhall119 has forgotten meetingology syntax already [15:38] I'm personally concerned about the out-of-box experience GNOME delivers by default. [15:38] Albeit I can't get into the Ubuntu etherpad [15:38] mhall119, no, willcooke is the one who started the meeting/control the bot [15:38] also no idea how to do that? [15:38] link ...? [15:38] #link maybe [15:38] willcooke, ^ [15:38] #link http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA [15:38] or LINK: [15:39] LINK: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA [15:39] jbicha, andyrock, isantop, ryanleesipes, ahayzen, no topics from you then? [15:39] * Trevinho fails [15:39] Either you have not been granted access to this resource or your entitlement has timed out. Please try again. [15:39] maybe.... [15:39] #topic Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: Etherpad here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/n08SOl5xiA [15:39] well, I'd like to follow up on isantop's topic [15:39] isantop, sorry, just saw your line from earlier [15:39] willcooke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology for reference [15:39] seb128, are we putting in the etherpad or here ... ? [15:39] also I assume it's ok now to drop Unity-specific patches that hold GNOME back? My specific example is Shotwell which is held at a git snapshot for a year because no one has stepped up to rewrite its UOA code. [15:39] ryanleesipes: looks like a timeout, login and log back in to Ubuntu SSO (login.ubuntu.com) [15:39] ahayzen, either work [15:39] just pick one [15:39] so we can get moving [15:39] :-) [15:40] so mine [15:40] want to discuss goals/how we move z+1 to GNOME and re-active the channel/sync up the work between us; don't want to discuss today the technical details/choices of components/etc [15:40] +1 on avoiding technical topics for now [15:40] My topics: [15:40] How should the Ubuntu GNOME team and the Ubuntu Desktop team resolve conflicts? [15:40] Expected timescales to see GNOME become the default shell [15:40] the details should be done in a meeting properly scheduled where we have the people we need, etc [15:40] I still can't get in [15:40] where will technical topics be discussed? later IRC meetings or mailinglist? [15:40] I'll just ask my questions in here, and perhaps someone else can plug them into Etherpad [15:41] ryanleesipes: PM me your LP nick [15:41] we are going to have another meeting [15:41] but mailing list is always fine for questions if anyone has some [15:41] It's just ryanleesipes mhall119 [15:41] or for raising topics [15:42] mhall119: jackpot51 on the pad pls [15:42] ryanleesipes: you should have etherpad access now, might need to log out and back in [15:42] I got in [15:42] jackpot51: also added, if anyone else needs access to the etherpad please PM me your launchpad nick [15:43] k, let's see we have enough topics to touch a few of those [15:43] willcooke, how do you want to process? [15:43] Alright, I'm in [15:43] I'll go through the pad one by one and set the topic, starting at the top... [15:43] hum [15:44] My questions: Will AppMenu and Indicator continue to be supported? [15:44] actually, let's start with... [15:44] what is the goal of the "new" gnome desktop: ship a vanilla gnome-shell or keep the workflow/look at the old unity way (with extensions or maybe patches for globalmenu)? [15:44] #topic Dropping Unity specific patches === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: Dropping Unity specific patches [15:44] jbicha, want to kick that off? [15:45] let's start with this one because it leads to how we set up collaboration I think [15:45] How are we handling Unity-specific patches? [15:45] or organize the work [15:45] do we just keep them if they aren't holding us back? [15:45] yes please [15:45] well no [15:46] my stand would be that we should go through the packages and remove patches that we feel like are not needed anymore [15:46] but we shouldn't do that as individuals [15:46] like I would try to suggest we set up a per-review rule [15:46] and use the channel to request reviews [15:46] is there a definitive list of these packages/patches? [15:46] so nobody takes an unilateral decision [15:47] and we resume team work/channel activity [15:47] jbicha, wdyt? [15:47] it's probably fine to drop patches for uoa/menubars/csd etc, but maybe not some others like typeahead in nautilus [15:47] if we just go "open gate mode" it's going to be cahotic at best [15:47] so, what I hear you saying is case-by-case but let's discuss when we do it to make sure there's concensus [15:47] what do others thing? [15:48] think [15:48] ironically, typeahead is probably the first to go as we've already discussed :| [15:48] yeah, maybe not the best example [15:48] nautilus isn't a good example because we already separately discussed dropping that [15:48] finne [15:48] don't know what would be atm [15:48] maybe something [15:48] are we ok with breakage on Unity to get Gnome working better? [15:48] please don't nitpick on stupid examples [15:48] seb128: would it be easier to start with "no patches" and go through them to add back in ones you want to keep, or start with "all patches" and go through them to see which ones to drop? [15:48] hey [15:48] it's just the first one I had coming [15:49] Agree with mhall119 [15:49] on starting with no patches [15:49] I'm sure there will be some things to keep [15:49] ryanleesipes: that was a question, you can't agree with it :-P [15:49] looking at gtk there are some [15:49] I can [15:49] It's my right [15:49] keeping unity working in universe is a good point [15:49] we are not going to keep intrusive UI patches for apps I think [15:50] there are some unity patches though, that might be convenient to keep (if not causing too much hassle) for people who wants to stick to unity7 on 18.04 I think [15:50] but we should probably keep the patches that don't cost much like if we have gtk changes to make appmenu work [15:50] hmm [15:50] don't know about that [15:50] Keeping patches has the advantage that it helps identify what we might desire to upstream. [15:50] we might end up creating a crappy experience [15:50] k [15:50] maybe let's stay our of technical details today? [15:50] Will anyone be maintaining Unity7? [15:50] like there are patches for headerbar to make them to work well when maximized in unity, they shouldn't create problems [15:50] like just agree on big lines [15:50] like need-peer-reviews to drop patches [15:50] ok, so can we get an action item assigned to somebody to start on a list of patches to keep/remove? [15:51] no single person who go and clean/upload by themself [15:51] ryanleesipes: as xenial is there for a while, I think it will need some basic support. [15:51] +1 or -1? [15:51] then everyone else can +/-1 them [15:51] no [15:51] +1 on working together to decide [15:51] do you plan to work on updating packages? [15:51] ryanleesipes: so, mostly high-prio bug fixes... [15:51] just curious [15:51] me? no, you've seen what I do to .deb packages [15:52] nobdoy wants that :) [15:52] k, you just seem to have strong preferences on how we organize ourselves [15:52] so I was wondering :p [15:52] but I'd like to see someone take an action item to start a document or something for tracking that work [15:52] for visibility [15:53] we have versions.html, just file a bug when you update a package and get a review on there? [15:53] +1 [15:53] seb128: I think we're in agreement with your general idea for peer review for dropping Unity-ish patches [15:53] although that might not have proper visibility of what needs doing [15:53] I would vote for normal mps (if vcs) or debdiff [15:53] I think it's too early to list out which specifics we want to work on, we need to agree the right processes today and then the specifics can come later [15:53] and get a peer review [15:53] more so if we go to 3.26 ;-) [15:53] using the channel to request for reviews [15:53] willcooke, +1 [15:53] +1 willcooke [15:54] which is also why I said let's stay out of technical discussions today [15:54] like on wheter we keep supporting unity in universe [15:54] or specifics about patches [15:54] file bug / merge proposal, get review, upload [15:54] +1 [15:54] +1 "using the channel to request for reviews" [15:54] ^ agreement on that? [15:54] next topic? [15:55] Ok [15:55] So we're agreed that we will use LP reviews and the IRC channel to request reviews and discuss it there. [15:56] So I'd like to move on to.... [15:56] #topic timescales === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-desktop to: None | GNOME as the desktop Meeting | Current topic: timescales [15:56] How does end of April for the seeds to be updated sound? [15:56] I think step 1 is to update the seed to put GNOME on the iso instead of unity [15:56] that sounds a good target to me [15:56] Two things [15:56] seb128: are you talking zesty+1? [15:57] we don't need technical details of leaf packages at first [15:57] willcooke: unless we are ok with the seeds including universe packages, that won't actually be possible that quick [15:57] or maybe just gdm vs lightdm [15:57] 1. I made a PPA https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ubuntu/ubuntu-desktop-gnome [15:57] this lets us 1) break shit and not care that much [15:57] 2) include universe packages [15:57] Laney, do we build an iso using the ppa? [15:57] or what does it do? [15:57] if we upload the seed there and have a look [15:57] you don't (well, you could) [15:57] but I think that it would be good to do some iterations there first [15:58] unless you want to go full on "move fast and break things" [15:58] I wouldn't mind doing that [15:58] but what sort of changes do you expect in the ppa.? [15:58] 1) drop packages that are not going to be updated from CD (unity8, ubuntu web browser), but leave unity mostly intact? [15:58] is that to test the patches drops? [15:58] or the seed changes? [15:58] or...? [15:58] ubuntu-settings, the seeds, packages with dropped patches [16:00] hum [16:00] I don't have a srong opinion either way [16:00] others, wdyt? [16:00] ppa is fine to me [16:00] and we might find random upgrade problems before hitting the archive with them [16:00] what's the proposal again? [16:01] sounds safer to me, since people have gotten used to devel releases not massively breaking on them in recent years [16:01] using ppa vs destabilizing the archive for a bit [16:01] just test updating the ubuntu-meta + minimal set in a ppa before 'the switch' [16:01] how will unity7 in universe still work if the patches are dropped? [16:02] degraded ? [16:02] that's a topic we didn't touch yet [16:02] Laney are you proposing iso build that include this PPA in the short term? [16:02] and probably worth another meeting [16:02] unity7 would still work, but apps won't integrate as well into it [16:02] can't we have both Unity and Gnome on the CD for at least a little bit during development (or am I missing what this conversation is about) [16:02] flexiondotorg: nah, mainly for upgrading [16:02] attente: I guess we can keep the most important ones [16:02] OK [16:02] jbicha, do you have a list of packages that need MIRed? [16:02] attente: but, integration is not much important [16:02] I'd try to keep them unless they don't create troubles for merging though [16:03] just like we had both Unity7 and 8 on Zesty image - I'm not saying we have to ship it, but for iterating to a new package set it makes it easier, right/ [16:03] seb128: not yet, but I can propose a partial list of MIR needs to our mailing list [16:03] jbicha, that would be nice [16:04] guess we'd need to have an initial proposal for leaf packages first [16:04] there are several choices that will need to be discussed there (keeping shotwell for instance) [16:04] let's not discuss apps selection in a first round [16:04] first we get a working GNOME session with our apps [16:04] then we discuss inside the session [16:04] +1/-1? [16:05] that's fine, just saying that it impacts how many MIRs need to be done and when [16:05] +1 [16:05] yes, we can try to get a working GNOME session first then worry about the specific apps after [16:05] +1 [16:05] Laney, yeah, good point [16:05] best to keep it lower at the start [16:05] let's see we do another meeting next week to discuss again [16:05] jbicha, can you do the required-minimal-MIR-set for then? [16:06] and let's use the ppa meanwhile [16:06] since archive is not open yet and we didn't figure out the details [16:06] let's say* [16:06] so it gives us [16:06] seb128: yes you can assign me to propose an initial MIR list this week [16:06] - using peer review&channel to sync work [16:06] thanks jbicha [16:06] - initial MIR list to be built by jbicha [16:07] - use the ppa from Laney to start [16:07] - another meeting next week when we review the MIR list and discuss some first tech details [16:07] yeah feel free to upload there often [16:07]