| John[Lisbeth] | Somehow I have deleted my volume slider and I can not for the life of me figure out how to add it back | 04:54 |
|---|---|---|
| === Spass_ is now known as Spass | ||
| === WildSoft_ is now known as WildSoft | ||
| === bazhang_ is now known as bazhang | ||
| sorinello_ | hello. is there a new white border around Terminal when more than one tabs are open ? | 14:02 |
| flocculant | sorinello_: approx 1px thick? | 14:04 |
| flocculant | if so I see it with one tab | 14:04 |
| sorinello_ | flocculant, exactly, yes | 14:05 |
| sorinello_ | I also see some new menus and functionality, which is cool. But the 1px border is annoying | 14:05 |
| sorinello_ | actually I see a lot of mew preferences there | 14:07 |
| flocculant | sorinello_: not sure if you are talking about the same thing then - white 1px border around terminal is the same in 16.04, 16.10 and 17.04 | 14:09 |
| sorinello_ | then no. I am talking when I open terminal, and I open an additional tab. | 14:10 |
| sorinello_ | so a terminal with 2 tabs. I 1px white orber | 14:10 |
| sorinello_ | *border | 14:10 |
| flocculant | looks exactly the same to me as it does in 16.04 - screenshot it maybe | 14:10 |
| flocculant | oh - I see - likely thicker than 1px and grey not white :) | 14:11 |
| sorinello_ | yes | 14:11 |
| sorinello_ | well 16.10 is using version 0.6.3, whereas 17.04 is using 0.84 .. that's quite a jump | 14:12 |
| sorinello_ | *0.8.4 | 14:12 |
| sorinello_ | 0.6.3 seems to be 3 years old if I see correctly | 14:13 |
| sorinello_ | odd that Xubuntu was shipping such an old version | 14:15 |
| flocculant | sorinello_: we would ship what was current | 14:15 |
| flocculant | like we have now - which has seen plenty changes https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/zesty/+source/xfce4-terminal/+changelog | 14:16 |
| flocculant | not positive - but likely a gtk3 thing causing that | 14:16 |
| flocculant | this is exactly why I wish that people who use Xubuntu spent 30 minutes checking out the beta and mentioning things before we release - not 5 days too late :) | 14:17 |
| sorinello_ | flocculant, yes, but as in the link you gave me, xubuntu jumped from 0.6.3 to 0.8.4. There are several version between them | 14:17 |
| sorinello_ | flocculant, indeed, I'm a heavy user of Ubuntu, I could have tried the beta version on one of the PC's | 14:18 |
| flocculant | where ? obviously not when the syncs happened - we don't deliberately miss out versions ... | 14:18 |
| flocculant | sorinello_: well beta's always happen every cycle ;) | 14:19 |
| sorinello_ | flocculant, So how to you explain this big version jump ? I see xfce is still 4.12 on 17.04 | 14:19 |
| flocculant | I can't explain it other than telling you we use what gets synced from debian | 14:20 |
| sorinello_ | https://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/ I see a lot of released versions between 0.6.3 and 0.8.4 | 14:20 |
| sorinello_ | okay. See ? this is the things that are very poorly documented and that people from the community don't know them, making it hard to contribute | 14:20 |
| sorinello_ | (at least this is my case) | 14:21 |
| sorinello_ | also the wallpaper is TOO blue-ish :P | 14:24 |
| sorinello_ | like an old school Fedora :) | 14:24 |
| akxwi-dave | sorinello_: looking at all those changes , they have mostly happened between the release dates of 16.10 and 17.04 especially the last 5 and 0.6.3 would have been the last stable release available when any freeze would have been made.. | 14:31 |
| sorinello_ | akxwi-dave, yes, that makes sense. Because indeed, after 2 years of total silence, xfce-terminal started getting love 3 months ago | 14:32 |
| akxwi-dave | :-) seems a lot more of the Xfce stuff is starting to get some more love.. | 14:33 |
| sorinello_ | my biggest frustration is that I don't know how, for example, Xubuntu is assembled, and I feel very noobish to ask questions here, because I don't quite fully know the dev/release cycle | 14:33 |
| sorinello_ | but yes, the freeze for 16.10 might have happen before terminal started getting love :) | 14:34 |
| flocculant | 16.10 release schedule - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule has the freezes on them | 14:35 |
| akxwi-dave | we follow the same cycle as Ubuntu does.. | 14:36 |
| akxwi-dave | flocculant: beat me to it | 14:36 |
| akxwi-dave | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule | 14:36 |
| sorinello | thanks :) | 14:54 |
| sorinello | flocculant, and if this is an xfce bug, after it is solved, will it be pushed in 17.04 repos ? or it will be available only in 17.10 ? | 14:57 |
| sorinello | I always get confused with these things | 14:57 |
| knome | generally regular releases do not have SRU/backports unless the bugs are really critical | 14:58 |
| knome | regardless if it was an xfce bug or a theming bug | 14:58 |
| knome | or anything else for that matter | 14:58 |
| sorinello | I see | 14:58 |
| sorinello | knome, is there any resource on the internet that explains all this process ? because I only know parts of it, but I never understood how software comes into ubuntu/xubuntu | 15:03 |
| knome | i don't think in a laid out format that describes it thorough and clearly | 15:04 |
| knome | what part of the process is unclear to you though? | 15:06 |
| knome | there are small bits and parts of processes described here and there, they might help understanding some particular areas | 15:06 |
| sorinello | mostly how this syncing works, and the flow software goes on, for example from vanilla xfce -> debian -> ubuntu -> xubuntu. there are so many layers in which an entity could chose to provide a patched version from upstream | 15:08 |
| knome | you can pretty much merge the ubuntu and xubuntu in that list; there's no difference between those regarding xfce packages | 15:08 |
| knome | (or any packages ftm) | 15:09 |
| sorinello | for example in this case, regarding the border issue, you guys will provide a fix until it is fixed in xfce, or contribute directly to xfce and wait for the next cycle to get the fix ? | 15:09 |
| knome | it depends on the bug | 15:09 |
| knome | if it's critical, we might apply a ubuntu patch ASAP | 15:10 |
| knome | but generally, all new code including fixes go through upstream xfce | 15:10 |
| knome | also it's preferred to use the version available in debian | 15:10 |
| knome | but that too has exceptions | 15:11 |
| sorinello | so at core Xubuntu is basically a DM-less Ubuntu + XFCE ? | 15:11 |
| knome | that's a very strong generalization, but yes | 15:11 |
| sorinello | so basically what you guys do, a very strong generalization is to package software from different sources ? | 15:12 |
| knome | practically there's a lot of customization, configuration changes, different set of default applications, integration etc. | 15:12 |
| sorinello | I see | 15:12 |
| knome | that sounds wrong. | 15:12 |
| sorinello | so you are not shipping quite the vanilla version of the upstream xfce | 15:12 |
| knome | more likely the xubuntu team makes sure the xfce packages in the ubuntu repositories work as well in the xubuntu environment as possible | 15:12 |
| knome | not quite, but in an ideal world, why not | 15:13 |
| knome | you got to separate configuration from code patches | 15:13 |
| sorinello | I am trying to understand who makes which customizations from upstream to final xfce | 15:13 |
| knome | if you're talking about code ONLY, then the ideal situation for xubuntu would be that all code was in upstream xfce and debian, and we would only sync the code | 15:13 |
| knome | if you consider customization (like configuration, theming, etc.), then it's the operating system that works on that side | 15:14 |
| knome | whether it was xubuntu or any other OS that used xfce | 15:14 |
| sorinello | ok, so most of you (the officials from the community) are contributors/developers to the vanilla software that is included in xubuntu | 15:14 |
| knome | that's wrong as well :P | 15:15 |
| knome | again, a big part of xubuntu is the "customization layer" | 15:15 |
| knome | ideally that wouldn't involve any code, but realistically speaking it has to | 15:15 |
| sorinello | so there can be bugs because of the customization, but also bugs coming from the upstream software you are using | 15:16 |
| knome | the right version would be that any code changes the xubuntu team makes to xfce is also driven to be pushed to upstream xfce | 15:16 |
| knome | yes | 15:16 |
| knome | and again, the customization mostly consist of things that are not code | 15:17 |
| sorinello | so the normal way is that you push the code to upstream and then wait until it is released by the upstream maintainer and then comes downstream ? | 15:18 |
| knome | normally, yes | 15:18 |
| knome | and normally downstream via debian | 15:18 |
| sorinello | yes.. | 15:19 |
| sorinello | and if you don't push it upstream, if you want a "local" fix, mean you'll create you own version of the package, which you have to maintain, right ? Something similar with the bugs Thunar suffers from ? | 15:19 |
| knome | in a way, yes (technically it's most often the same source package with patches) | 15:20 |
| knome | but there's no reason not to push code fixes upstream | 15:20 |
| knome | sometimes it's just too slow, so patches are applied right away | 15:20 |
| sorinello | in an ideal world no, but maybe the upstream project is no longer maintained ... and you have to step up and maintain at a functional level | 15:21 |
| knome | there's also some cases where other ubuntu packages and their versions affect xfce components in a way that ubuntu-specific patches need to be maintained | 15:21 |
| knome | if an upstream project is abandoned, then xubuntu might "adopt" the project and start maintaining it, yes | 15:21 |
| knome | or potentially switch to another alternative | 15:21 |
| sorinello | and ATM, does xubuntu have any adopted projects that is maintaining ? | 15:22 |
| knome | i can't think of anything specific, though xubuntu is maintaining some projects that are started by xubuntu | 15:23 |
| sorinello | I see | 15:24 |
| knome | to serve our purpose, but that are also used by other distributions/flavors | 15:24 |
| sorinello | and for example if the upstream maintainers want to take a package/project in a direction, and the OS community doesn't agree, what happens ? | 15:24 |
| knome | bluesabre, ochosi and Unit193 have a better idea about specific projects that xubuntu is maintaining | 15:24 |
| knome | then we'd either change to another alternative or keep maintaining the version that does what we want | 15:25 |
| knome | or in some cases, create our own alternative | 15:25 |
| knome | that depends a lot on the situation | 15:25 |
| sorinello | I see. I guess these are rather rare cases, but theis scenario comes in my mind :) | 15:26 |
| sorinello | thanks for answerring these questons knome, I have a clearer view now .. not 100% clear of course :) | 15:26 |
| knome | in the long run, xubuntu doesn't want to maintain too many packages as that takes a lot of effort and means we's have less time working on other things like the customization | 15:26 |
| sorinello | but isn't it tricky to figure out if a bug comes from a customization or from upstream ? | 15:27 |
| knome | sometimes yes | 15:27 |
| knome | but again, the customization doesn't include a lot of code, so it's often easy to spot the source of the bug | 15:27 |
| sorinello | so the customization is a bunch of conf files, or xml files ? | 15:28 |
| knome | bug triaging isn't generally always easy | 15:28 |
| sorinello | ofc, this depends on the package, application, etc | 15:28 |
| knome | and theming, and the default package selection, etc... | 15:28 |
| knome | that as a whole makes the xubuntu product, not "ubuntu+xfce" | 15:28 |
| knome | even if that's the easy way to describe what xubuntu is... | 15:29 |
| sorinello | yeah... seems I kinda underestimated this customization layer | 15:29 |
| sorinello | so this means t hat somewhere xubuntu does have a git repo with all its specific custom defaults + files + config + images, wallpapers, etc | 15:29 |
| knome | that includes amongst other things the documentation for xubuntu | 15:29 |
| knome | bzr repositories, but yes | 15:29 |
| sorinello | bzr ? | 15:30 |
| knome | bazaaar, another version control system | 15:30 |
| knome | the one used by launchpad | 15:30 |
| sorinello | ah, yes | 15:30 |
| sorinello | not too familiar with launchpad and with the platform as a whole | 15:31 |
| knome | https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+maintained-packages | 15:31 |
| knome | there's the list of packages xubuntu "maintains" in ubuntu | 15:31 |
| knome | actually that doesn't look right | 15:31 |
| knome | nvm that :P | 15:31 |
| knome | https://xubuntu.org/dev/derivatives/ | 15:32 |
| knome | the bottom of that page lists packages with the xubuntu branding | 15:33 |
| knome | that isn't a complete list of customization packages, but it's something | 15:33 |
| knome | basically any package that starts with xubuntu- is part of the customization layer | 15:33 |
| sorinello | so the things that make xubuntu are ubuntu + xfce + xubuntu-* packages | 15:34 |
| knome | it's not that easy, but by looking what the xubuntu-desktop metapackage pulls in you'll get an idea | 15:34 |
| knome | of course not all of this is maintained by xubuntu | 15:35 |
| flocculant | sorinello: so back to the beginning quickly - the change you noted on terminal appears to be a gtk3 change I am told | 15:35 |
| knome | and i also have to go | 15:36 |
| knome | bbl, and hope some questions were answered... | 15:36 |
| knome | -> | 15:36 |
| sorinello | so since thi is not a critical bug, if it will be fixed in upstream BEFORE the freeze for 17.10, then we;ll have the fix in 17.10. If not, in 18.04 maybe | 15:36 |
| sorinello | knome, thanks for answering my questions ! | 15:37 |
| flocculant | fix? | 15:37 |
| sorinello | flocculant, yes, isn't this a bug ? | 15:37 |
| flocculant | not sure there'll be a 'fix' - not sure there is something to fix | 15:37 |
| sorinello | ok, I see | 15:37 |
| sorinello | so it's a feature :D | 15:38 |
| flocculant | sorinello: :) | 15:38 |
| sorinello | thanks flocculant for the info | 15:43 |
| flocculant | sorinello: seems other themes aren't affected | 15:43 |
| flocculant | I'm no eyecandy guru ... I'd never noticed this :) | 15:44 |
| sorinello | indeed, other themes are not affected | 15:46 |
| sorinello | so it is a customization thing, not a bug in xfce/gtk3 ? | 15:47 |
| flocculant | no - if it's a bug it will be in Greybird, reporting it now - I'll give you the link | 15:48 |
| sorinello | so greybid is a custom xubuntu theme or it's a theme that comes with vanilla xfce ? | 15:51 |
| sorinello | you'll have to excuse my noobness :( | 15:51 |
| flocculant | sorinello: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/greybird-gtk-theme/+bug/1683857/+affectsmetoo | 15:54 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 1683857 in greybird-gtk-theme (Ubuntu) "Terminal border doubles when more than 1 tab" [Undecided,New] | 15:54 |
| flocculant | greybird is maintained by the shimmer project - which includes some of the xubuntu team :) | 15:55 |
| sorinello | I see | 16:01 |
| sorinello | well I see that all the 4 members are also in xubuntu :) | 16:02 |
| flocculant | 4 of the 6 are yea | 16:02 |
| flocculant | 1 of the other 2 used to be :) | 16:02 |
| sorinello | :) | 16:03 |
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