[04:54] Somehow I have deleted my volume slider and I can not for the life of me figure out how to add it back === Spass_ is now known as Spass === WildSoft_ is now known as WildSoft === bazhang_ is now known as bazhang [14:02] hello. is there a new white border around Terminal when more than one tabs are open ? [14:04] sorinello_: approx 1px thick? [14:04] if so I see it with one tab [14:05] flocculant, exactly, yes [14:05] I also see some new menus and functionality, which is cool. But the 1px border is annoying [14:07] actually I see a lot of mew preferences there [14:09] sorinello_: not sure if you are talking about the same thing then - white 1px border around terminal is the same in 16.04, 16.10 and 17.04 [14:10] then no. I am talking when I open terminal, and I open an additional tab. [14:10] so a terminal with 2 tabs. I 1px white orber [14:10] *border [14:10] looks exactly the same to me as it does in 16.04 - screenshot it maybe [14:11] oh - I see - likely thicker than 1px and grey not white :) [14:11] yes [14:12] well 16.10 is using version 0.6.3, whereas 17.04 is using 0.84 .. that's quite a jump [14:12] *0.8.4 [14:13] 0.6.3 seems to be 3 years old if I see correctly [14:15] odd that Xubuntu was shipping such an old version [14:15] sorinello_: we would ship what was current [14:16] like we have now - which has seen plenty changes https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/zesty/+source/xfce4-terminal/+changelog [14:16] not positive - but likely a gtk3 thing causing that [14:17] this is exactly why I wish that people who use Xubuntu spent 30 minutes checking out the beta and mentioning things before we release - not 5 days too late :) [14:17] flocculant, yes, but as in the link you gave me, xubuntu jumped from 0.6.3 to 0.8.4. There are several version between them [14:18] flocculant, indeed, I'm a heavy user of Ubuntu, I could have tried the beta version on one of the PC's [14:18] where ? obviously not when the syncs happened - we don't deliberately miss out versions ... [14:19] sorinello_: well beta's always happen every cycle ;) [14:19] flocculant, So how to you explain this big version jump ? I see xfce is still 4.12 on 17.04 [14:20] I can't explain it other than telling you we use what gets synced from debian [14:20] https://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/ I see a lot of released versions between 0.6.3 and 0.8.4 [14:20] okay. See ? this is the things that are very poorly documented and that people from the community don't know them, making it hard to contribute [14:21] (at least this is my case) [14:24] also the wallpaper is TOO blue-ish :P [14:24] like an old school Fedora :) [14:31] sorinello_: looking at all those changes , they have mostly happened between the release dates of 16.10 and 17.04 especially the last 5 and 0.6.3 would have been the last stable release available when any freeze would have been made.. [14:32] akxwi-dave, yes, that makes sense. Because indeed, after 2 years of total silence, xfce-terminal started getting love 3 months ago [14:33] :-) seems a lot more of the Xfce stuff is starting to get some more love.. [14:33] my biggest frustration is that I don't know how, for example, Xubuntu is assembled, and I feel very noobish to ask questions here, because I don't quite fully know the dev/release cycle [14:34] but yes, the freeze for 16.10 might have happen before terminal started getting love :) [14:35] 16.10 release schedule - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule has the freezes on them [14:36] we follow the same cycle as Ubuntu does.. [14:36] flocculant: beat me to it [14:36] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule [14:54] thanks :) [14:57] flocculant, and if this is an xfce bug, after it is solved, will it be pushed in 17.04 repos ? or it will be available only in 17.10 ? [14:57] I always get confused with these things [14:58] generally regular releases do not have SRU/backports unless the bugs are really critical [14:58] regardless if it was an xfce bug or a theming bug [14:58] or anything else for that matter [14:58] I see [15:03] knome, is there any resource on the internet that explains all this process ? because I only know parts of it, but I never understood how software comes into ubuntu/xubuntu [15:04] i don't think in a laid out format that describes it thorough and clearly [15:06] what part of the process is unclear to you though? [15:06] there are small bits and parts of processes described here and there, they might help understanding some particular areas [15:08] mostly how this syncing works, and the flow software goes on, for example from vanilla xfce -> debian -> ubuntu -> xubuntu. there are so many layers in which an entity could chose to provide a patched version from upstream [15:08] you can pretty much merge the ubuntu and xubuntu in that list; there's no difference between those regarding xfce packages [15:09] (or any packages ftm) [15:09] for example in this case, regarding the border issue, you guys will provide a fix until it is fixed in xfce, or contribute directly to xfce and wait for the next cycle to get the fix ? [15:09] it depends on the bug [15:10] if it's critical, we might apply a ubuntu patch ASAP [15:10] but generally, all new code including fixes go through upstream xfce [15:10] also it's preferred to use the version available in debian [15:11] but that too has exceptions [15:11] so at core Xubuntu is basically a DM-less Ubuntu + XFCE ? [15:11] that's a very strong generalization, but yes [15:12] so basically what you guys do, a very strong generalization is to package software from different sources ? [15:12] practically there's a lot of customization, configuration changes, different set of default applications, integration etc. [15:12] I see [15:12] that sounds wrong. [15:12] so you are not shipping quite the vanilla version of the upstream xfce [15:12] more likely the xubuntu team makes sure the xfce packages in the ubuntu repositories work as well in the xubuntu environment as possible [15:13] not quite, but in an ideal world, why not [15:13] you got to separate configuration from code patches [15:13] I am trying to understand who makes which customizations from upstream to final xfce [15:13] if you're talking about code ONLY, then the ideal situation for xubuntu would be that all code was in upstream xfce and debian, and we would only sync the code [15:14] if you consider customization (like configuration, theming, etc.), then it's the operating system that works on that side [15:14] whether it was xubuntu or any other OS that used xfce [15:14] ok, so most of you (the officials from the community) are contributors/developers to the vanilla software that is included in xubuntu [15:15] that's wrong as well :P [15:15] again, a big part of xubuntu is the "customization layer" [15:15] ideally that wouldn't involve any code, but realistically speaking it has to [15:16] so there can be bugs because of the customization, but also bugs coming from the upstream software you are using [15:16] the right version would be that any code changes the xubuntu team makes to xfce is also driven to be pushed to upstream xfce [15:16] yes [15:17] and again, the customization mostly consist of things that are not code [15:18] so the normal way is that you push the code to upstream and then wait until it is released by the upstream maintainer and then comes downstream ? [15:18] normally, yes [15:18] and normally downstream via debian [15:19] yes.. [15:19] and if you don't push it upstream, if you want a "local" fix, mean you'll create you own version of the package, which you have to maintain, right ? Something similar with the bugs Thunar suffers from ? [15:20] in a way, yes (technically it's most often the same source package with patches) [15:20] but there's no reason not to push code fixes upstream [15:20] sometimes it's just too slow, so patches are applied right away [15:21] in an ideal world no, but maybe the upstream project is no longer maintained ... and you have to step up and maintain at a functional level [15:21] there's also some cases where other ubuntu packages and their versions affect xfce components in a way that ubuntu-specific patches need to be maintained [15:21] if an upstream project is abandoned, then xubuntu might "adopt" the project and start maintaining it, yes [15:21] or potentially switch to another alternative [15:22] and ATM, does xubuntu have any adopted projects that is maintaining ? [15:23] i can't think of anything specific, though xubuntu is maintaining some projects that are started by xubuntu [15:24] I see [15:24] to serve our purpose, but that are also used by other distributions/flavors [15:24] and for example if the upstream maintainers want to take a package/project in a direction, and the OS community doesn't agree, what happens ? [15:24] bluesabre, ochosi and Unit193 have a better idea about specific projects that xubuntu is maintaining [15:25] then we'd either change to another alternative or keep maintaining the version that does what we want [15:25] or in some cases, create our own alternative [15:25] that depends a lot on the situation [15:26] I see. I guess these are rather rare cases, but theis scenario comes in my mind :) [15:26] thanks for answerring these questons knome, I have a clearer view now .. not 100% clear of course :) [15:26] in the long run, xubuntu doesn't want to maintain too many packages as that takes a lot of effort and means we's have less time working on other things like the customization [15:27] but isn't it tricky to figure out if a bug comes from a customization or from upstream ? [15:27] sometimes yes [15:27] but again, the customization doesn't include a lot of code, so it's often easy to spot the source of the bug [15:28] so the customization is a bunch of conf files, or xml files ? [15:28] bug triaging isn't generally always easy [15:28] ofc, this depends on the package, application, etc [15:28] and theming, and the default package selection, etc... [15:28] that as a whole makes the xubuntu product, not "ubuntu+xfce" [15:29] even if that's the easy way to describe what xubuntu is... [15:29] yeah... seems I kinda underestimated this customization layer [15:29] so this means t hat somewhere xubuntu does have a git repo with all its specific custom defaults + files + config + images, wallpapers, etc [15:29] that includes amongst other things the documentation for xubuntu [15:29] bzr repositories, but yes [15:30] bzr ? [15:30] bazaaar, another version control system [15:30] the one used by launchpad [15:30] ah, yes [15:31] not too familiar with launchpad and with the platform as a whole [15:31] https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+maintained-packages [15:31] there's the list of packages xubuntu "maintains" in ubuntu [15:31] actually that doesn't look right [15:31] nvm that :P [15:32] https://xubuntu.org/dev/derivatives/ [15:33] the bottom of that page lists packages with the xubuntu branding [15:33] that isn't a complete list of customization packages, but it's something [15:33] basically any package that starts with xubuntu- is part of the customization layer [15:34] so the things that make xubuntu are ubuntu + xfce + xubuntu-* packages [15:34] it's not that easy, but by looking what the xubuntu-desktop metapackage pulls in you'll get an idea [15:35] of course not all of this is maintained by xubuntu [15:35] sorinello: so back to the beginning quickly - the change you noted on terminal appears to be a gtk3 change I am told [15:36] and i also have to go [15:36] bbl, and hope some questions were answered... [15:36] -> [15:36] so since thi is not a critical bug, if it will be fixed in upstream BEFORE the freeze for 17.10, then we;ll have the fix in 17.10. If not, in 18.04 maybe [15:37] knome, thanks for answering my questions ! [15:37] fix? [15:37] flocculant, yes, isn't this a bug ? [15:37] not sure there'll be a 'fix' - not sure there is something to fix [15:37] ok, I see [15:38] so it's a feature :D [15:38] sorinello: :) [15:43] thanks flocculant for the info [15:43] sorinello: seems other themes aren't affected [15:44] I'm no eyecandy guru ... I'd never noticed this :) [15:46] indeed, other themes are not affected [15:47] so it is a customization thing, not a bug in xfce/gtk3 ? [15:48] no - if it's a bug it will be in Greybird, reporting it now - I'll give you the link [15:51] so greybid is a custom xubuntu theme or it's a theme that comes with vanilla xfce ? [15:51] you'll have to excuse my noobness :( [15:54] sorinello: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/greybird-gtk-theme/+bug/1683857/+affectsmetoo [15:54] Launchpad bug 1683857 in greybird-gtk-theme (Ubuntu) "Terminal border doubles when more than 1 tab" [Undecided,New] [15:55] greybird is maintained by the shimmer project - which includes some of the xubuntu team :) [16:01] I see [16:02] well I see that all the 4 members are also in xubuntu :) [16:02] 4 of the 6 are yea [16:02] 1 of the other 2 used to be :) [16:03] :)