[04:54] <John[Lisbeth]> Somehow I have deleted my volume slider and I can not for the life of me figure out how to add it back
[14:02] <sorinello_> hello. is there a new white border around Terminal when more than one tabs are open ?
[14:04] <flocculant> sorinello_: approx 1px thick?
[14:04] <flocculant> if so I see it with one tab
[14:05] <sorinello_> flocculant, exactly, yes
[14:05] <sorinello_> I also see some new menus and functionality, which is cool. But the 1px border is annoying
[14:07] <sorinello_> actually I see a lot of mew preferences there
[14:09] <flocculant> sorinello_: not sure if you are talking about the same thing then - white 1px border around terminal is the same in 16.04, 16.10 and 17.04
[14:10] <sorinello_> then no. I am talking when I open terminal, and I open an additional tab.
[14:10] <sorinello_> so a terminal with 2 tabs. I 1px white orber
[14:10] <sorinello_> *border
[14:10] <flocculant> looks exactly the same to me as it does in 16.04 - screenshot it maybe
[14:11] <flocculant> oh - I see - likely thicker than 1px and grey not white :)
[14:11] <sorinello_> yes
[14:12] <sorinello_> well 16.10 is using version 0.6.3, whereas 17.04 is using 0.84 .. that's quite a jump
[14:12] <sorinello_> *0.8.4
[14:13] <sorinello_> 0.6.3 seems to be 3 years old if I see correctly
[14:15] <sorinello_> odd that Xubuntu was shipping such an old version
[14:15] <flocculant> sorinello_: we would ship what was current
[14:16] <flocculant> like we have now - which has seen plenty changes https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/zesty/+source/xfce4-terminal/+changelog
[14:16] <flocculant> not positive - but likely a gtk3 thing causing that
[14:17] <flocculant> this is exactly why I wish that people who use Xubuntu spent 30 minutes checking out the beta and mentioning things before we release - not 5 days too late :)
[14:17] <sorinello_> flocculant, yes, but as in the link you gave me, xubuntu jumped from 0.6.3 to 0.8.4. There are several version between them
[14:18] <sorinello_> flocculant, indeed, I'm a heavy user of Ubuntu, I could have tried the beta version on one of the PC's
[14:18] <flocculant> where ? obviously not when the syncs happened - we don't deliberately miss out versions ...
[14:19] <flocculant> sorinello_: well beta's always happen every cycle ;)
[14:19] <sorinello_> flocculant, So how to you explain this big version jump ? I see xfce is still 4.12 on 17.04
[14:20] <flocculant> I can't explain it other than telling you we use what gets synced from debian
[14:20] <sorinello_> https://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/ I see a lot of released versions between 0.6.3 and 0.8.4
[14:20] <sorinello_> okay. See ? this is the things that are very poorly documented and that people from the community don't know them, making it hard to contribute
[14:21] <sorinello_> (at least this is my case)
[14:24] <sorinello_> also the wallpaper is TOO blue-ish :P
[14:24] <sorinello_> like an old school Fedora :)
[14:31] <akxwi-dave> sorinello_:  looking at all those changes , they have mostly  happened between the release dates of 16.10 and 17.04 especially the last 5  and 0.6.3 would have been the last stable release available when any freeze would have been made..
[14:32] <sorinello_> akxwi-dave, yes, that makes sense. Because indeed, after 2 years of total silence, xfce-terminal started getting love 3 months ago
[14:33] <akxwi-dave> :-)   seems a lot more of the Xfce stuff is starting to get some more love..
[14:33] <sorinello_> my biggest frustration is that I don't know how, for example, Xubuntu is assembled, and I feel very noobish to ask questions here, because I don't quite fully know the dev/release cycle
[14:34] <sorinello_> but yes, the freeze for 16.10 might have happen before terminal started getting love :)
[14:35] <flocculant> 16.10 release schedule - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule has the freezes on them
[14:36] <akxwi-dave> we follow the same cycle as Ubuntu does..
[14:36] <akxwi-dave> flocculant:  beat me to it
[14:36] <akxwi-dave> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
[14:54] <sorinello> thanks :)
[14:57] <sorinello> flocculant, and if this is an xfce bug, after it is solved, will it be pushed in 17.04 repos ? or it will be available only in 17.10 ?
[14:57] <sorinello> I always get confused with these things
[14:58] <knome> generally regular releases do not have SRU/backports unless the bugs are really critical
[14:58] <knome> regardless if it was an xfce bug or a theming bug
[14:58] <knome> or anything else for that matter
[14:58] <sorinello> I see
[15:03] <sorinello> knome, is there any resource on the internet that explains all this process ? because I only know parts of it, but I never understood how software  comes into ubuntu/xubuntu
[15:04] <knome> i don't think in a laid out format that describes it thorough and clearly
[15:06] <knome> what part of the process is unclear to you though?
[15:06] <knome> there are small bits and parts of processes described here and there, they might help understanding some particular areas
[15:08] <sorinello> mostly how this syncing works, and the flow software goes on, for example from vanilla xfce -> debian -> ubuntu -> xubuntu. there are so many layers in which an entity could chose to provide a patched version from upstream
[15:08] <knome> you can pretty much merge the ubuntu and xubuntu in that list; there's no difference between those regarding xfce packages
[15:09] <knome> (or any packages ftm)
[15:09] <sorinello> for example in this case, regarding the border issue, you guys will provide a fix until it is fixed in xfce, or contribute directly to xfce and wait for the next cycle to get the fix ?
[15:09] <knome> it depends on the bug
[15:10] <knome> if it's critical, we might apply a ubuntu patch ASAP
[15:10] <knome> but generally, all new code including fixes go through upstream xfce
[15:10] <knome> also it's preferred to use the version available in debian
[15:11] <knome> but that too has exceptions
[15:11] <sorinello> so at core Xubuntu is basically a DM-less Ubuntu + XFCE ?
[15:11] <knome> that's a very strong generalization, but yes
[15:12] <sorinello> so basically what you guys do, a very strong generalization is to package software from different sources ?
[15:12] <knome> practically there's a lot of customization, configuration changes, different set of default applications, integration etc.
[15:12] <sorinello> I see
[15:12] <knome> that sounds wrong.
[15:12] <sorinello> so you are not shipping quite the vanilla version of the upstream xfce
[15:12] <knome> more likely the xubuntu team makes sure the xfce packages in the ubuntu repositories work as well in the xubuntu environment as possible
[15:13] <knome> not quite, but in an ideal world, why not
[15:13] <knome> you got to separate configuration from code patches
[15:13] <sorinello> I am trying to understand  who makes which customizations from upstream to final xfce
[15:13] <knome> if you're talking about code ONLY, then the ideal situation for xubuntu would be that all code was in upstream xfce and debian, and we would only sync the code
[15:14] <knome> if you consider customization (like configuration, theming, etc.), then it's the operating system that works on that side
[15:14] <knome> whether it was xubuntu or any other OS that used xfce
[15:14] <sorinello> ok, so most of you (the officials from the community) are contributors/developers to the vanilla software that is included in xubuntu
[15:15] <knome> that's wrong as well :P
[15:15] <knome> again, a big part of xubuntu is the "customization layer"
[15:15] <knome> ideally that wouldn't involve any code, but realistically speaking it has to
[15:16] <sorinello> so there can be bugs because of the customization, but also bugs coming from the upstream software you are using
[15:16] <knome> the right version would be that any code changes the xubuntu team makes to xfce is also driven to be pushed to upstream xfce
[15:16] <knome> yes
[15:17] <knome> and again, the customization mostly consist of things that are not code
[15:18] <sorinello> so the normal way is that you push the code to upstream and then wait until it is released by the upstream maintainer and then comes downstream ?
[15:18] <knome> normally, yes
[15:18] <knome> and normally downstream via debian
[15:19] <sorinello> yes..
[15:19] <sorinello> and if you don't push it upstream, if you want a "local" fix, mean you'll create you own version of the package, which you have to maintain, right ? Something similar with the bugs Thunar suffers from ?
[15:20] <knome> in a way, yes (technically it's most often the same source package with patches)
[15:20] <knome> but there's no reason not to push code fixes upstream
[15:20] <knome> sometimes it's just too slow, so patches are applied right away
[15:21] <sorinello> in an ideal world no, but maybe the upstream project is no longer maintained ... and you have to step up and maintain at a functional level
[15:21] <knome> there's also some cases where other ubuntu packages and their versions affect xfce components in a way that ubuntu-specific patches need to be maintained
[15:21] <knome> if an upstream project is abandoned, then xubuntu might "adopt" the project and start maintaining it, yes
[15:21] <knome> or potentially switch to another alternative
[15:22] <sorinello> and ATM, does xubuntu have any adopted projects that is maintaining ?
[15:23] <knome> i can't think of anything specific, though xubuntu is maintaining some projects that are started by xubuntu
[15:24] <sorinello> I see
[15:24] <knome> to serve our purpose, but that are also used by other distributions/flavors
[15:24] <sorinello> and for example if the upstream maintainers want to take a package/project in a direction, and the OS community doesn't agree, what happens ?
[15:24] <knome> bluesabre, ochosi and Unit193 have a better idea about specific projects that xubuntu is maintaining
[15:25] <knome> then we'd either change to another alternative or keep maintaining the version that does what we want
[15:25] <knome> or in some cases, create our own alternative
[15:25] <knome> that depends a lot on the situation
[15:26] <sorinello> I see. I guess these are rather rare cases, but theis scenario comes in my mind :)
[15:26] <sorinello> thanks for answerring these questons knome, I have a clearer view now .. not 100% clear of course :)
[15:26] <knome> in the long run, xubuntu doesn't want to maintain too many packages as that takes a lot of effort and means we's have less time working on other things like the customization
[15:27] <sorinello> but isn't it tricky to figure out if a bug comes from a customization or from upstream ?
[15:27] <knome> sometimes yes
[15:27] <knome> but again, the customization doesn't include a lot of code, so it's often easy to spot the source of the bug
[15:28] <sorinello> so the customization is a bunch of conf files, or xml files ?
[15:28] <knome> bug triaging isn't generally always easy
[15:28] <sorinello> ofc, this depends on the package, application, etc
[15:28] <knome> and theming, and the default package selection, etc...
[15:28] <knome> that as a whole makes the xubuntu product, not "ubuntu+xfce"
[15:29] <knome> even if that's the easy way to describe what xubuntu is...
[15:29] <sorinello> yeah... seems I kinda underestimated this customization layer
[15:29] <sorinello> so this means t hat somewhere xubuntu does have a git repo with all its specific custom defaults + files + config + images, wallpapers, etc
[15:29] <knome> that includes amongst other things the documentation for xubuntu
[15:29] <knome> bzr repositories, but yes
[15:30] <sorinello> bzr ?
[15:30] <knome> bazaaar, another version control system
[15:30] <knome> the one used by launchpad
[15:30] <sorinello> ah, yes
[15:31] <sorinello> not too familiar with launchpad and with the platform as a whole
[15:31] <knome> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+maintained-packages
[15:31] <knome> there's the list of packages xubuntu "maintains" in ubuntu
[15:31] <knome> actually that doesn't look right
[15:31] <knome> nvm that :P
[15:32] <knome> https://xubuntu.org/dev/derivatives/
[15:33] <knome> the bottom of that page lists packages with the xubuntu branding
[15:33] <knome> that isn't a complete list of customization packages, but it's something
[15:33] <knome> basically any package that starts with xubuntu- is part of the customization layer
[15:34] <sorinello> so the things that make xubuntu are ubuntu + xfce + xubuntu-* packages
[15:34] <knome> it's not that easy, but by looking what the xubuntu-desktop metapackage pulls in you'll get an idea
[15:35] <knome> of course not all of this is maintained by xubuntu
[15:35] <flocculant> sorinello: so back to the beginning quickly - the change you noted on terminal appears to be a gtk3 change I am told
[15:36] <knome> and i also have to go
[15:36] <knome> bbl, and hope some questions were answered...
[15:36] <knome> ->
[15:36] <sorinello> so since thi is not a critical bug, if it will be fixed in upstream BEFORE the freeze for 17.10, then we;ll have the fix in 17.10. If not,  in 18.04 maybe
[15:37] <sorinello> knome, thanks for answering my questions !
[15:37] <flocculant> fix?
[15:37] <sorinello> flocculant, yes, isn't this a bug ?
[15:37] <flocculant> not sure there'll be a 'fix' - not sure there is something to fix
[15:37] <sorinello> ok, I see
[15:38] <sorinello> so it's a feature :D
[15:38] <flocculant> sorinello: :)
[15:43] <sorinello> thanks flocculant for the info
[15:43] <flocculant> sorinello: seems other themes aren't affected
[15:44] <flocculant> I'm no eyecandy guru ... I'd never noticed this :)
[15:46] <sorinello> indeed, other themes are not affected
[15:47] <sorinello> so it is a customization thing, not a bug in xfce/gtk3 ?
[15:48] <flocculant> no - if it's a bug it will be in Greybird, reporting it now - I'll give you the link
[15:51] <sorinello> so greybid is a custom xubuntu theme or it's a theme that comes with vanilla xfce ?
[15:51] <sorinello> you'll have to excuse my noobness :(
[15:54] <flocculant> sorinello: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/greybird-gtk-theme/+bug/1683857/+affectsmetoo
[15:55] <flocculant> greybird is maintained by the shimmer project - which includes some of the xubuntu team :)
[16:01] <sorinello> I see
[16:02] <sorinello> well I see that all the 4 members are also in xubuntu :)
[16:02] <flocculant> 4 of the 6 are yea
[16:02] <flocculant> 1 of the other 2 used to be :)
[16:03] <sorinello> :)