[06:35] <Trevinho> flexiondotorg: so https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/615/appindicator-support/ seems to work well for appindicators here, not sure for electron apps though
[06:38] <Trevinho> Mmh, not sure how I will able to live with all this wasted space though... http://imgur.com/eLZO2Rs.png
[06:39] <ochosi> Trevinho: sorry to hijack, but what's the plan with indicators in the post-unity world? will you still maintain/use them? we in xubuntu always found them useful and ship them in our default install, but we probably can't maintain them (no manpower)
[06:40] <Trevinho> ochosi: eh.... good question :-)
[06:40] <Trevinho> ochosi: I think we need to figure that out in next week meeting
[06:40] <ochosi> i see
[06:40] <ochosi> just as my 2 cents, i would love it if they survived
[06:41] <ochosi> or maybe you can generalize them somehow and get them into other distros as well
[06:41] <ochosi> but anyway, i'll try to follow your meeting or ask again in 2 weeks
[06:58] <duflu> $ reboot
[07:17] <flexiondotorg> Morning desktopers
[07:17] <flexiondotorg> Trevinho Morning. Nice find.
[07:17] <flexiondotorg> I'll give it a test.
[07:27] <flexiondotorg> Trevinho also:
[07:27] <flexiondotorg> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/plotinus-hud-menu-search-gtk3-apps
[07:27] <flexiondotorg> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/global-menu-for-gnome-extension-development
[07:27] <Trevinho> ochosi: I guess we need to support app-indicators, though... So an extension like the one above could be in.
[07:27] <flexiondotorg> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/adwaita-theme-smaller-title-bars
[07:29] <Trevinho> flexiondotorg: nice.... I guess we need to define what in and what out... That global menu ext doesn't look to be the nicest, but... We can hack it in case. But still, unless we don't have a proper plan...
[07:29] <flexiondotorg> All ideas right now, but useful references.
[07:30] <duflu_> flexiondotorg, the smaller titlebars would appear to undo Gnome's touch-ability...
[07:30] <duflu_> Depends if that's something you want.
[07:31] <duflu_> Windows 10 is in the same boat - touch friendly (too big) or not
[07:31] <flexiondotorg> duflu_ Adwaita is still there for those with touch displays :-)
[07:31] <duflu_> flexiondotorg: So where's that desktop slider? :)
[07:32] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[07:33] <duflu> Morning seb128
[07:33] <seb128> hey duflu flexiondotorg Trevinho
[07:33] <Trevinho> morning seb128
[07:33] <Trevinho> hei duflu
[07:33] <duflu> Hi Trevinho. I hope you are at least by the pool/beach
[07:34] <Trevinho> duflu: in fact unity8 had  a pretty nice design to support that.... We can push upstream to do something like we were doing, so changing the theme state depending on the UX jurney
[07:34] <flexiondotorg> Morning seb128. How's things?
[07:34] <seb128> flexiondotorg, good! you?
[07:34] <flexiondotorg> Not bad. Up late SRU'ing Ubuntu MATE bugs ;-)
[07:35] <duflu> Trevinho, or volcano, or...
[07:37] <Trevinho> duflu: no... Just normal coworking space today
[07:37] <duflu> Sure, let's call the pool bar "coworking space"
[07:37] <Trevinho> flexiondotorg: I guess we've to SRU that issue too for compiz...
[07:38] <Trevinho> duflu: see... Just some jungle in the back...  https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vxkHqYEi/20170420_153722_HDR.jpg
[07:39] <duflu> oic
[07:47] <flexiondotorg> Trevinho Would be most appreciated.
[07:55] <muktupavels> Trevinho: can you review few compiz merge proposals?
[07:55] <muktupavels> https://code.launchpad.net/~muktupavels/compiz/lp1530277/+merge/321647
[07:55] <muktupavels> https://code.launchpad.net/~muktupavels/compiz/require-libmetacity-3-22/+merge/322370
[07:55] <muktupavels> https://code.launchpad.net/~muktupavels/compiz/fix-initial-server-frame-position/+merge/322817
[08:02] <Laney> morning
[08:06] <seb128> hey Laney, how are you?
[08:07] <Laney> hey seb128
[08:08] <Laney> I'm ok, went climbing for the first time again last night
[08:08] <Laney> after the shoulder injury
[08:08] <Laney> wasn't toooo bad
[08:09] <Laney> then we went to folk club and saw a cool band!
[08:09] <Laney> was a guest night
[08:09] <Laney> what about you?
[08:10] <seb128> sounds like a nice evening
[08:10] <seb128> I'm good, didn't do anything special yesterday evening though, just watched some tv and read
[08:10] <seb128> today is sunny though and I've tennis at 5pm
[08:11] <Laney> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnnQ4Ki0R8 this band
[08:13] <seb128> nice music
[08:17] <Trevinho> hey Laney
[08:19] <Laney> hi Trevinho
[08:19] <Laney> you good?
[08:19] <duflu> Morning Laney
[08:19] <Trevinho> hey Laney yeah... all good. last night went to a couple of bars... Made some new friends :-)
[08:19] <Trevinho> Laney: nice music indeed, tho
[08:20] <Laney> bad head today?
[08:20] <Laney> hey duflu
[08:21] <Laney> what's up?
[08:22] <Laney> Trevinho: this one is nice too https://youtu.be/FpJqv4b398o
[08:22]  * Laney got gnome-shell to build in jhbuild finally /o\
[08:22]  * Laney stabs libtool
[08:22] <Trevinho> Laney: "bad head" was for me me? :-)
[08:22] <Laney> yep
[08:22] <Trevinho> Laney: no, no... alllllright
[08:23] <Trevinho> but last night I also got up to watch Champions League... Which here is at 2:45 :|
[08:23] <flexiondotorg> Morning Laney muktupavels
[08:23] <Trevinho> Almost slept the final part
[08:23] <Laney> /o\
[08:23] <Laney> hi flexiondotorg
[08:33] <muktupavels> hi flexiondotorg
[08:43] <duflu> What is "a Champions League"?
[08:43]  * duflu ducks
[08:43] <ahayzen> Hi, anyone else noticed with Ubuntu GNOME 17.04, after clicking shutdown the dialog that has three options (cancel, restart, power off). It takes *two* clicks to select any of the buttons? And Esc doesn't work until you click somewhere in the dialog, seems focus is not been given to the dialog?  Anyone know which project I should report against ?
[08:46] <flexiondotorg> jbicha ^
[08:47] <Laney> I'd start with gnome-shell. It can be reassigned if necessary.
[08:48] <flexiondotorg> Laney, have you seen that MAC randomisation in Network Manager is creating havoc?
[08:48] <flexiondotorg> Not just Ubuntu.
[08:48] <flexiondotorg> This has been an issue in every distro shipping Network Manager 1.4
[08:48] <flexiondotorg> Here is the LP bug - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1681513
[08:49] <flexiondotorg> I've had loads of reports of wifi being completely broken :-(
[08:52] <flexiondotorg> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=836351
[08:53] <Laney> Nope
[08:53] <Laney> I don't know a single solitary thing about that feature
[08:54] <Laney> The Debian bug is fixed though?
[08:54] <ahayzen> Laney, thanks, i've reported bug 1684510 for now
[08:54] <Laney> ahayzen: cool beans
[08:55] <flexiondotorg> Laney Well is was fixed in nm 1.4 in Debian by cherry picking some commits. But the change logs don't say what.
[08:55] <flexiondotorg> They are now using nm 1.6.
[08:56] <Laney> flexiondotorg: Presumably the diff would
[08:56]  * Laney feeds alioth some more hamsters
[08:58] <Laney> https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-utopia/network-manager.git/commit/?id=0bb216356b69f2df305b921c9e38a0a2bb502c4d
[09:01] <duflu> Boo. The Pinebook specs just got refreshed/finalized and they changed IPS LCD to a TN LCD
[09:02] <Laney> I think we have these patches.
[09:02] <duflu> Or maybe everyone just incorrectly assumed it was IPS when writing about it months ago
[09:08] <Laney> flexiondotorg: If those patches are already in 1.4.4, which it looks like they are, then I guess it didn't fully fix the bug? Try c_yphermox maybe. Not sure who's maintaining NM currently :/
[09:12] <Trevinho> muktupavels: so, if you want SRU them too, we need a bug for those fix branches
[09:12] <Trevinho> muktupavels: if not... well, I need to wait before landing them
[09:13] <muktupavels> Trevinho: I dont want to SRU them, just get review.
[09:15] <Trevinho> muktupavels: well, this at least https://code.launchpad.net/~muktupavels/compiz/fix-initial-server-frame-position/+merge/322817 is going to be SRUed probably, even to Xenial, so...
[09:15] <Trevinho> please open a bug at least for that :-)
[09:17] <muktupavels> Trevinho: I don't like to open/write bug reports... maybe flexiondotorg can do that as that affects also MATE.
[09:18] <flexiondotorg> Sure, I'll take a look a bit later...
[09:21] <flexiondotorg> I'll create an SRU bug for https://code.launchpad.net/~muktupavels/compiz/fix-initial-server-frame-position/+merge/322817
[09:21] <flexiondotorg> muktupavels Question for you.
[09:22] <flexiondotorg> If the upstream MATE team were interested in making Metacity a first class citizen in MATE, would you welcome that?
[09:22] <muktupavels> yes, why not?
[09:22] <flexiondotorg> Something we discussed in the team is updating mate-settings-daemon so it fully supports Metacity.
[09:23] <flexiondotorg> With a potential goal of dropping Marco and using Metacity as the default WM in MATE.
[09:23] <Trevinho> muktupavels: well, I don't like that too... But you know, it's part of being a developer :-D
[09:23] <Trevinho> flexiondotorg: nobody will drop me! 😂
[09:24] <Trevinho> and... I'm not sure if I like or hate the fact that a project has my name... As I get pinged all the time you upload something... xD
[09:25] <flexiondotorg> muktupavels Just wanted to check that you don't see any potential issue with maintaining Metacity if it were to be the default WM in MATE too?
[09:29] <muktupavels> flexiondotorg: what issues? there might be more theme related changes - I want animation support for window decorations with GTK+...
[09:30] <muktupavels> if Metacity works for MATE then use it. :)
[09:30] <flexiondotorg> Excellent. Thanks muktupavels I'll let the team know you've agreed and we'll work on this :-)
[09:31] <muktupavels> gtk+ required version is not problem, right? At some point I will probably try to port it to GTK+ 4...
[09:32] <flexiondotorg> muktupavels Ahh, that might be an issue.
[09:33] <muktupavels> flexiondotorg: currenlty I have 3.19.8 as required version in configure.ac
[09:33] <flexiondotorg> So MATE support GTK 3.14 to GTK 3.22.
[09:33] <flexiondotorg> And, as a project, we're hoping to stay on GTK 3.22 for a good while.
[09:34] <Trevinho> flexiondotorg: if you can make https://bugs.launchpad.net/compiz/+bug/1530277 also SRU friendly would be nice :-)
[09:35] <muktupavels> gtk+ 4 is not ready and probably it will take some time...
[09:35] <flexiondotorg> I don't see why Metacity moving to GTK4+ would be a problem for MATE though.
[09:35] <muktupavels> why 3.14 is supported version?
[09:35] <flexiondotorg> Some distros have it that really want MATE.
[09:36] <muktupavels> they want newest MATE but use old gtk+?
[09:36] <flexiondotorg> Apparently.
[09:36] <muktupavels> that part I will never understand...
[09:37] <flexiondotorg> We review the supported versions every few months and drop support for older releases.
[09:37] <flexiondotorg> I think we will soon require 3.22
[09:37] <muktupavels> ok, then gtk+ should not be problem. :)
[09:38] <muktupavels> metacity going to gtk+ 4 would also require gtk-window-decorator to do same...
[09:41] <Trevinho> When your car insurance company sends you the docs throught a link that points to an owncloud instance.... how's that? :-)
[09:42] <Trevinho> flexiondotorg: anyway, i trust you'll do the bug for that MP and I'm adding it to the SRU silo
[09:42] <duflu> muktupavels: Last time I looked at that it had GTK-2 dependencies still. Did someone get it to 3 at least?
[09:42] <duflu> I vaguely recall reading someone did it
[09:42] <muktupavels> dufu: gtk-window-decorator use gtk+ 3...
[09:42] <duflu> Cool
[09:43] <duflu> But not any more
[09:43] <muktupavels> ?
[09:43] <flexiondotorg> Trevinho Next on my list is those bugs.
[09:43] <flexiondotorg> duflu If you referring to MATE, it is GTK3 only now.
[09:44] <duflu> No, I meant gtk-window-decorator. But I'm recalling the state of the code from 2012
[09:52] <Laney> A golden year
[09:52] <Laney> I keep copies of 2012 code in my code cellar
[09:52] <Laney> 2016... not so much
[09:53] <davmor2> Laney: why would gnome-software tell me vim is installed when running it in terminal says it isn't?
[09:54] <Laney> dunno
[09:54] <Laney> what happens when you press launch?
[09:54] <davmor2> nothing
[09:56] <Laney> is gvim?
[09:56] <davmor2> Laney: imgur.com/a/UBkmH
[09:57] <davmor2> Laney: I'm thinking it is vim-tiny that is install but gnome-software is just lumping them all together
[09:58] <Laney> vim's desktop file is in a different package to vim itself
[09:58] <Laney> presumably that thing is installed
[09:58] <davmor2> Laney: right but if you search for vim that is the only file so far
[09:58] <muktupavels> Trevinho: fix initial server position commit also brings in metacity required version changes... that is most likely not wanted for SRU...
[09:59] <Laney> I'm aware that that is what you are seeing
[09:59] <Laney> what I am saying is an explanation of why that might be.
[10:01] <davmor2> Laney: yeap I'm just saying the thing sucks don't worry ;)  So I see neovim, gvim and that icon for vim itself.  So I'm assuming all terminal apps are hidden unless they have a launcher attached to them
[10:02] <Laney> Only desktop applications are shown
[10:03] <Laney> please just file a bug :-)
[10:11] <seb128> Laney, flexiondotorg, on that n-m issue we maybe need https://cgit.freedesktop.org/NetworkManager/NetworkManager/commit/?h=nm-1-4&id=cb18faf2df6b556cf2837001c62efbb5fbe2066b ?
[10:12] <willcooke> Hello from London
[10:12] <seb128> hey willcooke
[10:12] <willcooke> coming late to the party, is that n-m issue about MAC addresses changing?
[10:12] <willcooke> Seems like a bad default to me if it is.
[10:13] <Laney> Why's that?
[10:13] <Laney> seb128: Don't know. That looks more like a problem with users changing the setting to me, but it could be.
[10:13] <willcooke> Constantly changing MAC address makes for very difficult management on a network where IP addresses are reserved by MAC
[10:13] <willcooke> like at my house ;)
[10:14] <willcooke> and other networks I've managed during my life
[10:15] <Laney> I thought it just did it while scanning.
[10:16] <davmor2> hey willcooke
[10:17] <Laney> that's what the iOS stuff does anyway
[10:17] <Laney> and I thought this was more or less the same thing
[10:22] <Laney> Something on radio 4 about peeling mushrooms
[10:22] <Laney> I've never even heard of such a thing
[10:23] <seb128> https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/51917/why-should-or-shouldnt-i-peel-mushrooms
[10:24] <Laney> amazing
[10:24] <Laney> I didn't even know they could be peeled
[10:24] <Laney> would have thought that it would just make them break up into bits
[10:24] <Laney> what a world we live in today
[10:24] <seb128> I'm always unsure if they should be peeled or not, way they are too muddy I usually do that...
[10:24] <seb128> lol
[10:24] <seb128> way->when
[10:25] <Laney> going to try this next time
[10:25] <seb128> :-)
[10:26] <seb128> Trevinho, some SRU team members re-enforced recently that they would like SRU verification to include the package version/revision you tested and how you tested it, they might not like your "I'm running fixed version for some weeks in my trusty machine."
[10:28] <Trevinho> seb128: oh.... well, it's clear what's the version.. But ok, I was lazy to copy&paste
[10:28] <Trevinho> :-)
[10:28] <Trevinho> seb128: where's that policy though?
[10:29]  * Trevinho checks wiki..
[10:29] <Trevinho> and it has not much infos, like a pattern to follow... At this point having a template would be better
[10:30] <seb128> Trevinho, I think I read that on some ubuntu-devel@ recent discussion
[10:31] <Trevinho> ok, I see the 3rd
[10:31] <Trevinho> 3d
[12:11] <jbicha> the mac randomization is a useful feature but one problem is that there is no easy way to turn it off if it causes problems so I filed https://bugzilla.gnome.org/781295
[12:12] <jbicha> Windows 10 has that feature
[12:12] <jbicha> and good morning
[12:46] <seb128> Trevinho, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-March/039745.html is the email I was thinking about for SRUs details
[12:47] <seb128> "When marking "verification-done", please describe what packages were
[12:47] <seb128> tested and what versions. "
[12:48] <seb128> oh, I see that you replied but your email didn't reach the list
[13:33] <Laney> I think it'd be fair enough to ask rbasak (or someone) to update the wiki and/or messages from the tools if they decided to make that policy
[13:34]  * Laney checks the ubuntu-devel moderation queue
[13:34] <Laney> [1/60] [13:34] <Laney> :(
[13:36] <seb128> Laney, that's sort of what I just asked in my reply :-) (or maybe that was not clear from what I wrote, is that what you say?)
[13:36] <Laney> so much spam
[13:36] <Laney> no I didn't see any reply yet
[13:36] <seb128> I just sent it like 10 minutes ago
[13:37] <Laney> cool
[13:37] <Laney> From:     marco.trevisan@canonical.com
[13:37] <Laney> Subject:  Re: SRU quality and preventing regressions
[13:37] <Laney> found!
[13:38] <Trevinho> You guys ban me?
[13:38]  * Trevinho at dinner... Checking later
[13:39] <Laney> seb128: ok, saw it now, that's what I meant :-)
[13:39] <Laney> Trevinho: go away!
[13:39] <seb128> Laney, :-)
[13:39] <seb128> Trevinho, enjoy dinner
[13:39] <Laney> don't check later, check tmoorrow
[13:39] <seb128> Trevinho, you hit moderation queue, probably because you used @canonical rather than @ubuntu?
[13:40] <kenvandine> jbicha, do you have bzr branches for ubuntu GNOME packages?  Like gnome-shell?
[13:40] <seb128> Laney, k, he just replied saying he's going to jfdi :)
[13:40] <Laney> nice
[13:43] <jbicha> kenvandine: not pushed publicly any more, I was waiting for Debian pkg-gnome to convert from svn to git to use their branches
[13:44] <kenvandine> jbicha, ok, thanks
[13:44] <Laney> bahaha
[13:44] <kenvandine> i'm going to push some branches to ~ubuntu-desktop for now
[13:44] <Laney> that's one of those endless topics
[13:44] <kenvandine> Laney, yes... i heard :)
[13:45] <Laney> we kept trying to organise a pkg-gnome sprint to do this (amongst other things) but it never managed to quite happen yet
[13:45] <Laney> 2017: Year of the pkg-gnome git conversion!
[13:45] <kenvandine> Laney, maybe our next sprint
[13:45] <kenvandine> lol
[13:45] <kenvandine> Laney, we might have the proper motivation now
[13:46] <Laney> if we get some pkg-gnome guys along, then could be
[13:46] <jbicha> I think the pkg-gnome team is getting more interested in doing it this year
[13:47] <seb128> is there different options on how they can do it?
[13:47] <seb128> ik gbp style or not
[13:48] <seb128> I've no idea about git workflows, but we should maybe have somebody from our side who take interest, look at options and what would be best for us and try to participate in the discussions
[13:48] <seb128> unsure who would be interested in anyone
[13:48] <seb128> if
[13:49] <jbicha> well, basic default gbp style is different from dep14 and there's a couple places where dep14 gives options
[13:49] <jbicha> an example dep14 tree is at https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-gnome/gnome-games.git/
[13:50] <seb128> is that what they lean toward atm?
[13:50] <seb128> I wonder if that's a case of "we are just going to have to play by the rules they come with"
[13:50] <jbicha> there's the question of whether it should be as Perfect as possible or if we should Get It Done and adapt things later
[13:50] <seb128> or if we should try to have a say/figure out what works best for us
[13:51] <jbicha> seb128: ask in #debian-gnome what they think about dep14 :)
[13:51] <Laney> I think that we should be a part of they.
[13:51] <Laney> and I already am to some extent :)
[13:51] <jbicha> when it was mentioned several weeks ago, nothing in pkg-gnome git was using dep14 yet really, but I converted my new packages over to it now
[13:52] <seb128> Laney, right, I agree with that, still it might be better to have one person looking at the issue than having a bunch of us joining now to ask stupid question and trying to join the discussion with slightly different opinions
[13:52] <seb128> that might be less constructive
[13:54] <jbicha> there's only a few heavy contributors to pkg-gnome so you just have to get them to agree with the plan, everyone else can adapt
[13:56] <seb128> I guess what I'm saying is "can we try to be pro-active to increase the chances to have a resulting workflow we are happy with"? They might pick something that most of our team find too tedious and which is going to mean less of us might want to work there
[13:57] <jbicha> my opinion is that it can't be worse than svn
[13:57] <seb128> we don't work in svn here
[13:57] <seb128> we have our own debian/ based vcs in bzr
[13:58] <seb128> anyway, not something we are going to sort out today and I need to move location, bbiab
[13:58] <jbicha> the git branches will have the full source but probably not full upstream commit history
[14:01] <Laney> soz, someone came to the door
[14:02] <Laney> I think most of the reasonable options are good and much better than SVN
[14:02] <Laney> and I expect to be helping out, especially if I can get to something like Debcamp/Debconf
[14:52] <ads20000> Would it be possible for Ubuntu Software to have a download link for Snaps which downloads the .snap and .assert for people to install Snaps offline?
[14:52] <ads20000> See https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/install-snap-files-offline/302/
[14:53] <ads20000> One could just use `snap download hello-world` but it would be better if there was a GUI to do this, would be even better if Ubuntu Software could handle installing at the other end (somehow installing the .snap and .assert) Deb-style
[14:56] <Laney> Seems niche and confusing
[15:15] <ads20000> Which is why I would prefer a third-party like uAppExplorer allow for downloading `.assert` files, but @ogra_ said it should be the software center app
[15:27] <dobey> i would expect that such a feature would not be implemented. and even if it were, the assertions have to be added in a non-obvious order
[15:29] <dobey> the snappy/server folks are quite against things other than snapd talking to the server
[16:37] <ryanleesipes> willcooke: Is 18.04 still going to be Snap-based?
[16:47] <willcooke> ryanleesipes, I think you're combining a couple of things there.  Classic Ubuntu desktop will be deb based.  I expect that we will be shipping some apps as snaps though.  But the main distro will still be deb based
[17:29] <Laney> nighty night