[01:56] <robert_ancell> jbicha, can you confirm for bug 1672424 you were trying with non-absolute paths and you already have g-s running?
[02:01] <sarnold> that's annoying that rather than give an error message like "No such file or directory" which is a fairly clear indicator, it gives "this file type is not supported", which means nearly nothing. :(
[02:02] <robert_ancell> sarnold, agreed, the error message is also terrible.
[02:02] <robert_ancell> Will fix that too
[02:02] <robert_ancell> It's because it passes the filename to all the plugins and none of them handle it. It never actually checks if the file exists.
[02:04] <jbicha> robert_ancell: good morning
[02:04] <robert_ancell> jbicha, hi
[02:04] <sarnold> oh so it's not like there's a simple fopen() call with the results, but a potentially undertemined number of error messages from a pile of modules, all with different errors...
[02:04] <robert_ancell> sarnold, luckily in this case they don't return errors, they just don't make use of the filename
[02:05] <jbicha> uh, it failed for me when I ran with an absolute path or with ./itch_23.4.0_amd64.deb
[02:05] <jbicha> switcheroo-control is in zesty now so I didn't use that as a test case
[02:06] <jbicha> but I get different behavior if I try to open it directly from Firefox like LP: #1682819
[02:07] <jbicha> GNOME Software opens with the package description but the Install button does nothing
[02:08] <robert_ancell> jbicha, ok, so there is at least two bugs here then
[02:08] <jbicha> https://itch.io/app/ was what I was using
[02:08] <robert_ancell> trying that now
[02:08] <jbicha> yes
[02:08] <jbicha> I got several confirmations of both these bugs in the past week
[02:09] <jbicha> this and networking issues were the 2 biggest problems I've heard about from 17.04 so I appreciate you looking into it
[02:11] <jbicha> oh, I read the test case again
[02:12] <jbicha> if I use the absolute file name, I get the package description page with the useless Install button
[02:13] <robert_ancell> jbicha, with itch?
[02:14] <jbicha> yes
[02:14] <robert_ancell> OK, I see that with itch too now
[02:16] <jbicha> oh, it's not morning any more where you are
[02:17] <robert_ancell> jbicha, nope, 14:17 :)
[02:17] <robert_ancell> About the time I end up with a bunch of questions and no-one is online anymore!
[02:20] <jbicha> ok, I finally added a world clock for NZ, let's see if that helps me get the time right
[02:31] <duflu> Is Artful Aardvark for real for a placeholder name?
[02:33] <sarnold> sure looks real http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/artful/
[02:35] <duflu> I've been fooled before. Although that was just in conversation people using false codenames
[08:03] <Laney> hey
[08:03] <davmor2> Morning all
[08:03] <didrocks> morning Laney, davmor2
[08:10] <willcooke> what ho
[08:11] <Laney> hi davmor2 didrocks willcooke
[08:11] <davmor2> tally ho pip pip willcooke
[08:12] <davmor2> morning didrocks Laney how are you guys
[08:15] <seb128> hey there, I'm around but need to change location so back online in 10min or so
[08:16] <davmor2> quick everyone hide and get ready to rah seb128 when he comes back :D
[08:19]  * willcooke puts a lampshade on his head
[08:22] <Laney> davmor2: yeah ok
[08:22] <Laney> went round to a friend for dinner last night and got a puncture on the way /o\
[08:23] <Laney> took a detour through wollaton park to see if there were any fawns kicking about
[08:23] <Laney> there were LOADS!
[08:23] <Laney> but the path is spiky :(
[08:24] <davmor2> Laney: wompwompwomp.com
[08:24] <Laney> is that like the sad trombone
[08:25] <davmor2> Laney: html5 sad trombone no flash required
[08:25] <Laney> :D
[08:25] <Laney> anyway, said friend had a puncture repair kit and i managed to fix it
[08:25] <Laney> then we had enchiladas
[08:25] <Laney> so all was well
[08:40] <seb128> back
[08:44] <Laney> hey seb128
[08:44] <Laney> how's it going
[08:45] <seb128> good, it's friday!
[08:46] <Laney> oh yeah
[08:46] <Laney> I forgot
[08:46] <seb128> I played tennis yesterday early evening, then we went to a nice italian place and watched the last round of political interviews before the elections
[08:46] <seb128> and you?
[08:46] <Trevinho> ah hey guys
[08:46] <seb128> hey Trevinho
[08:47] <Trevinho> seb128: is elections going to be mad like usual nowadays?
[08:48] <Laney> I made a youtube video of a traffic light last night
[08:48] <Laney> peak cycle campaigning
[08:50] <Sweetshark> moin
[08:50] <seb128> what's wrong with the light? never green for bikes?
[08:50] <Sweetshark> seb128: counting on you guys (wrt elections)
[08:50] <seb128> Trevinho, dunno yeah, we have 4 people close enough that they can qualify for the second round (only 2 to remain)
[08:50] <seb128> Sweetshark, hey, how are you?
[08:51] <Trevinho> yeah, I know a little the process
[08:54] <Laney> yeah it didn't change if you were on a bike
[08:54] <Laney> but they fixed it after I complained!
[08:55] <Laney> my video is rotated though and I don't know how to fix that
[08:56] <Laney> guessing I have to use another program to do that
[08:56]  * Laney later on
[09:12] <Sweetshark> seb128: mostly fine ;) -- still defragmenting my life, which actually is getting a much more enjoyable experience than I originally thought ...
[09:13] <seb128> ah, glad to see that you find some positive
[09:13] <seb128> sorry that you got hit by those changes
[09:15] <seb128> Sweetshark, do you already have ideas what you want to do next?
[09:16] <Sweetshark> change isnt bad, the swiftness of it all was a bit of a surprise.
[09:18] <Sweetshark> seb128: ideas: yes. considering lots of options right now. Have not yet locked in on one option over all the others yet as "the one Thing" though.
[09:18] <seb128> Sweetshark, k, good luck in any case and I hope you find something you like!
[09:19] <Sweetshark> seb128: so: still open to suggestions ;)
[09:19] <Sweetshark> seb128: thanks
[11:20] <jbicha> morning :|
[11:21] <seb128> hey jbicha, happy friday
[11:48] <andyrock> hey all
[11:51] <darkxst> hey seb128
[11:51] <seb128> hey andyrock darkxst
[11:52] <darkxst> tracker is pretty integral to the gnome-shell experience
[11:52] <darkxst> and I suspect its going to be really hard to benchmark performance
[11:53] <darkxst> how big is you home folder? kind of thing
[11:53] <jbicha> it doesn't index your home folder recursively by default
[11:54] <jbicha> but if you have a very large music library in Music/ or videos in Videos/
[11:54] <seb128> so how is the nautilus recursive search working?
[11:54] <darkxst> tracker indexes a subset of the folder
[11:55] <seb128> darkxst, I think you overplay how essential tracker is to gnome-shell and that we will find out that things work mostly fine without the indexer being active
[11:55] <seb128> or you are saying that out of the box GNOME experience is crap until tracker has indexed
[11:55] <seb128> does it index on battery?
[11:55] <jbicha> seb128: he's right about those specific apps being absolutely useless without a tracker index
[11:55] <seb128> yeah, but we don't plan to use any of those apps so far
[11:55] <seb128> at least not music/photos
[11:56] <seb128> we have rhythmbox&shotwell
[11:56] <seb128> we said first step is to change desktop and keep our app selection
[11:56] <seb128> we can rediscuss tracker in context of changing apps when we get resources to look at those changes
[11:56] <jbicha> sure, I agree that Music & Photos aren't ideal
[11:56] <seb128> which we are not going to have in a first wave
[11:58] <darkxst> seb128, I supsect it would keep indexing on battery, but your not likely to pull a shitload of new files to index, while on battery?
[11:59] <seb128> well maybe my first login is on battery
[11:59] <darkxst> so its not actually gonna do much in that case
[11:59] <jbicha> for a typical user, the indexing should be very quick and have very little performance impact
[12:00] <darkxst> seb128, isnt there a warning to not upgrade on battery?
[12:00] <seb128> typical users might have more music and videos that you think
[12:00] <seb128> or photos
[12:00] <seb128> darkxst, yes, you upgrade on power, when upgrade is down the system reboot
[12:00] <darkxst> but really a one time hit, to index that content is not a concern?
[12:00] <seb128> so you might just decide to stop and pick up your laptop/first boot next day in the train
[12:01] <seb128> disk content change, it's not a one time hit
[12:01] <seb128> you might use nautilus on battery
[12:01] <darkxst> seb128,  feels like your picking obscure corner cases here!
[12:01] <seb128> is it going to go through indexing the dirs you try to "typeahead" in?
[12:02] <darkxst> nautilus search provider calls in the already indexed files
[12:03] <seb128> so it does go through a full disk index at some point?
[12:03] <seb128> or it just has incomplete results?
[12:03] <darkxst> the type in search box in nautilus at some point will just revert to old school recursive search which is far less efficient than tracker
[12:07] <jbicha> tracker's used by virtually every distro
[12:07] <jbicha> while it has a few bugs and some people strongly don't like it, it doesn't seem to be a problem for most people
[12:08] <seb128> doesn't mean it doesn't have drawbacks
[12:08] <jbicha> reminds me a bit of systemd
[12:08] <seb128> good luck working without an init systemd ;-)
[12:09] <darkxst> seb128, no it doesnt just smash the file system, it uses inotify events to index changed files
[12:09] <seb128> inotify has its limitations
[12:09] <andyrock> do you know if it's possible to download the dell xps13 9360 sputnik iso?
[12:09] <seb128> which is more the issue than tracker
[12:10] <jbicha> inotify is on https://wiki.gnome.org/BastienNocera/KernelWishlist
[12:11] <darkxst> well maybe, but zeitgeist musht be much the same
[12:11] <darkxst> and you were happy to use that?
[12:11] <seb128> it doesn't use inotify
[12:11] <seb128> ?
[12:12] <seb128> we just push infos from apps
[12:12] <seb128> like nautilus or gtk fileselector when you open a file
[12:12] <seb128> which is also a sucking experience since it only knows about things you opened
[12:12] <seb128> or downloaded
[12:12] <seb128> but at least it has no i/o impact
[12:12] <seb128> nor battery
[12:16] <darkxst> if battery is your main concern, Im that can be resolved
[12:16] <darkxst> to not index on battery
[12:17] <seb128> read p_itti's comment on the bug mentioned on the list, it summarize also my opinion
[12:17] <seb128> anyway that discussion went wrong
[12:17] <seb128> it's something we should look at
[12:17] <seb128> we just don't have the resources to commit to look at it or maintain tracker atm
[12:17] <seb128> so that's probably for later and somebody is going to need to commit to do the work
[12:18] <seb128> need to go for lunch, bbiab
[13:27] <seb128> back
[13:28] <seb128> I might have missed some backlog, I dropped from IRC during lunch
[13:28] <kenvandine> hey seb128
[13:28] <kenvandine> wasn't mutter in main before?
[13:28] <kenvandine> from the old unity based on mutter
[13:28] <kenvandine> before precise...
[13:29] <seb128> jbicha, darkxst, don't take what I wrote as a firm no against tracker, we are just not going to change everything at once without proper planning and ressources handling, that's on the backlog of tech discussions to have but dunno what priority it has and when we are going to get to it
[13:29] <seb128> hey kenvandine
[13:30] <darkxst> seb128, have you tried Ubuntu GNOME?
[13:30] <seb128> kenvandine, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/<source>/+publishinghistory is your friend
[13:30] <kenvandine> ah
[13:30] <kenvandine> i've been using rmadison :)
[13:30] <seb128> that lists only active series right?
[13:30] <kenvandine> yeah
[13:30] <seb128> darkxst, trying yes, using no
[13:31] <seb128> darkxst, like on a test machine with a vanilla image to play a bit, not real day use with datas and my normal user profile
[13:31] <darkxst> well use it then!
[13:31] <seb128> and?
[13:31] <kenvandine> ah, indeed maverick and natty had mutter in main :)
[13:31] <seb128> darkxst, what do you expect me to notice/get out of it?
[13:33] <seb128> darkxst, if that's about tracker it probably feels fine on my config
[13:34] <darkxst> seb128, I meant Ubuntu GNOME in general
[13:35] <seb128> doesn't mean power usage isn't going to increase by e.g 7% which wouldn't be easily noticable without proper benchmark, I'm also not using a rotational disk
[13:35] <seb128> darkxst, again why do you ask? just so I get a feel for it?
[13:38] <kenvandine> seb128, We only need 4 MIRs for a basic working gnome-shell in main
[13:38] <seb128> kenvandine, woot
[13:39] <seb128> gjs being on the list though :-/
[13:39] <darkxst> seb128, I ask because regular use would be easier to benchmark
[13:39] <kenvandine> gjs, mozjs38, caribou, and gnome-shell
[13:39] <darkxst> even if its a rough metric
[13:39] <seb128> mozjs
[13:39] <kenvandine> seb128, i didn't say they are simple ones :)
[13:39] <darkxst> I get ~5hrs on my laptop
[13:39] <seb128> I wonder if we should get in touch with the onboard guys
[13:39] <kenvandine> seb128, however... i think a very important one, but not required for basic usage would be chrome-gnome-shell
[13:40] <seb128> darkxst, not sure what we argue over
[13:40] <kenvandine> it doesn't bundle the browser extensions, but provides the host dbus service to install shell extensions after being prompted in the browser to install the browser extension
[13:40] <kenvandine> without it, shell extensions will be a pain for users
[13:40] <kenvandine> but security might not like it...
[13:41] <kenvandine> personally i'd rank it as pretty important, but we can run the shell without it :)
[13:41] <seb128> darkxst, my point is that landing new techs should not be a "let's land unprepared and figure out later (or not if we lack resources)", we need to do a proper job upfront looking at what is needed, the cost&benefit and have plan which includes proper resourcing to deal with the work&maintainance
[13:41] <jbicha> seb128: bug 1672465 is a particular concern for onboard for us
[13:42] <jbicha> also onboard can't fully integrate with the Activities Overview search or the GNOME password prompts I believe; it uses the much more limited caribou in those cases I think
[13:43] <kenvandine> jbicha, i noticed the shell provides it's own OSK, but i think it's only used in the shell's search
[13:43] <jbicha> you'll probably want to install gnome-shell-extension-onboard to give it a try
[13:43] <kenvandine> jbicha, is that right?
[13:43] <seb128> jbicha, k, using caribou is fine, the onboard time just did good work for us for years so I don't want to stab them in the back
[13:43] <jbicha> like to unlock your keyring
[13:43] <seb128> time->team
[13:44] <seb128> I want to give them a chance to make a case for their project
[13:44] <jbicha> I think Caribou is likely not fine; it has far fewer features and keyboard layout support than Onboard
[13:44] <kenvandine> the shell is using libcaribou
[13:44] <darkxst> seb128, but you are creating extra work transitioning from a working Ubuntu GNOME to a Ubuntu with GNOME
[13:46] <seb128> darkxst, we can't replace the desktop and all the apps and techs while dealing with testing&quality with a couple of engineers in one cycle
[13:46] <seb128> just too much work
[13:47] <seb128> what do you propose to do?
[13:47] <seb128> give up on testing&knowing what we ship?
[13:48] <darkxst> seb128, switch to Ubuntu GNOME
[13:48] <darkxst> ]
[13:49] <seb128> yeah, that's basically replacing the whole product and apps without giving us time to get familiar with what we ship
[13:49] <seb128> that doesn't seem like a smart move
[13:49] <seb128> we are going to get there, just not on day 1
[13:50] <seb128> transitions need proper planning
[13:51] <seb128> feel free to keep Ubuntu GNOME for an extra cycle if you think it's better while we work our way out on how to get there
[13:51] <seb128> ?
[13:52] <kenvandine> jbicha, hmmm... gdm3 hasn't been in main before
[13:53] <kenvandine> it's not the same source as gdm
[13:55] <jbicha> kenvandine: what do you mean it's not the same?
[13:56] <seb128> kenvandine, it's the same project, just a source rename in Debian
[13:56] <seb128> doesn't need a new MIR
[13:56] <jbicha> mterry: what process are we going to use for stuff at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GNOME/MIR_List that had been in main before at one point?
[13:57] <darkxst> seb128, yes its a different product, but its all there in both debian and Ubuntu GNOME
[13:57] <kenvandine> ah... great
[13:57] <seb128> darkxst, yeah, it's there and the corresponding teams who built it know what they did, great for them, we (as Ubuntu Desktop) don't as much so we need time to ramp up there ... does that make sense?
[13:58] <seb128> darkxst, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue for
[13:59] <mterry> jbicha: I usually like to give them a quick once over because, I mean, their situation may have changed, we may now have a duplicate feature/library in main, etc.  In theory it's a rubber stamp, so maybe don't fill a full MIR bug out, but it'd be good to file a bare MIR and note that it used to be in
[13:59] <seb128> darkxst, you want us to take a product we don't know and give official support&security updates for it without knowing if we have the resources to honor that commitment?
[13:59] <seb128> darkxst, or if some of the changes are going to create issues for our oem partners
[14:01] <darkxst> seb128, right you might need to hire a couple of extra people ;)
[14:02] <seb128> that's not an option I've control on...
[14:02] <seb128> would be nice though :-)
[14:02] <seb128> we just fired a bunch of people so I'm unsure that's going to work out
[14:03] <jbicha> kenvandine: Debian experimental svn's gnome-shell packaging has demoted gir1.2-telepathylogger-0.2 to Suggests since gnome 3.24 only optionally uses it
[14:03] <kenvandine> cool
[14:03] <jbicha> so I'm going to drop it from the MIR list
[14:04] <kenvandine> i'll drop it from the build depends so we don't link to it
[14:05] <darkxst> that was a partially sarcastic comment, but probably you are moving to a product (gnome-shell) that I am am the only one in the ubuntu world that understands
[14:05] <darkxst> that should be your biggest issue, not nitpicks like tracker
[14:07] <willcooke> jbicha, FYI - I'm following up on your libcolumbus question to devel
[14:09] <kenvandine> willcooke, libcolumbus?  didn't jhodapp do some work on that?
[14:09] <darkxst> willcooke, GPL3 will also be an issue lightdm, assuming the CLA was to be dropped
[14:09] <Menzador> darkxst: Lol, pick me, until recently I spent a good week and a half on Ubuntu GNOME Zesty devel branch :)
[14:09] <jbicha> willcooke: thanks, it's a really nice feature so I'd love to see it used more
[14:09] <jhodapp> kenvandine, I didn't do work on it, but I have used it
[14:10] <darkxst> Menzador, SonikAmerica, how was it?
[14:11] <Menzador> darkxst: Nice and polished. I wish it had *all* of 3.24, but what we had was well done and fairly seamlessly integrated... no real issues at all
[14:11] <Menzador> I even added a gazillion shell extensions... thankful for Google Chrome integration :)
[14:12] <Menzador> Can't wait to see what 17.10 brings
[14:13] <seb128> darkxst, so you sort of backup what I said? it's more important that we get some engineers familiar with the gnome-shell code first which should be the priority before other changes?
[14:14] <Menzador> ^ in addition, I understand the latest GNOME Builder app makes it easier to contribute specifically to GNOME
[14:18] <darkxst> seb128, regardless you will need engineers that can read both C and javascript!)
[14:19] <seb128> darkxst, I think we should be good with those, at least robert/laney/ken and probably others I forgot to list
[14:22] <darkxst> its a somewhat unique JS though
[14:23] <kenvandine> hey jhodapp!
[14:24] <xnox> willcooke, our theme needs a lot of fixing for gnome-shell =/
[14:24] <jhodapp> heya
[14:24] <kenvandine> xnox, it does
[14:25] <kenvandine> i guess we should start filing bugs against our theme
[14:45] <kenvandine> seb128, do we even have anyone to work on our themes?
[14:47] <seb128> kenvandine, thanks for voluntering!
[14:47] <seb128> :-)
[14:47]  * kenvandine runs for cover
[14:47] <seb128> willcooke said he would try to figure out who design-team looks like and if they can help us
[14:47] <kenvandine> i'm not opposed... however not my area of expertise
[14:48] <seb128> Laney and flexiondotorg know their way around
[14:48] <willcooke> I poked design this morning, they're looking in to it
[14:48] <kenvandine> cool
[14:48] <seb128> but I don't think we have anyone who like that enough to want to be official maintainer
[14:48] <kenvandine> i can't imagine fixing it up is a huge thing... just it looks very bad right now
[14:48] <jbicha> seb128: Ken's response sounds like a strong volunteering to me ;)
[14:48] <seb128> :-)
[14:49] <kenvandine> *strong*
[14:49] <kenvandine> lol
[14:49] <kenvandine> more than others i guess
[14:49] <jbicha> well, comparatively :)
[14:49] <seb128> I guess we should file bugs to start
[14:49] <seb128> and maybe a few people can mp some fixes
[14:49] <kenvandine> yeah, i'll start doing that with screenshots
[14:49] <seb128> not perfect but it's a start
[14:49] <kenvandine> the corners are bugging me more than anything
[14:50] <jbicha> +1 to getting Design to handle it since I think they would have more freedom to change things
[14:50] <seb128> there you go, you have one things you can start with :-)
[14:51] <seb128> yeah, if design could do that it would be ideal
[14:51] <kenvandine> it's weird, gnome-terminal doesn't have the problems with the corners up top
[14:51] <kenvandine> but gedit does
[14:52] <willcooke> kenvandine, in the tabs?
[14:52] <willcooke> notebook tabs
[14:52] <seb128> oh, I almost forgot that willcooke was our theme maintainer
[14:53]  * willcooke hides
[14:53] <seb128> :-)
[14:54] <kenvandine> willcooke, i'll file that one too
[14:55] <kenvandine> willcooke, what about the tabs?
[14:55] <willcooke> kenvandine, well, terminal has (or had) it's own notebook implementation, so the theme fixes to make the terminal tabs different colours was specific to Terminal, so that might be why Terminal looks OK and Gedit doesnt
[14:56] <Laney> It's the window border
[14:56] <Laney> and terminal has black corners for me
[14:56] <kenvandine> Laney, not for me... gedit has them though
[14:56] <Laney> ok
[14:56] <Laney> don't know what to say to that :)
[14:57] <kenvandine> willcooke, so what's wrong with the tabs in gedit?  is it that they are hard to tell which is the focused tab?
[14:57] <willcooke> kenvandine, yeah
[14:57] <kenvandine> Laney, indeed... however i will say the corners don't look great in terminal... but they are kind of rounded without the dark back square in it
[14:57] <kenvandine> willcooke, got it
[15:19] <kenvandine> willcooke, do we want to use a specific tag for bugs related to our transition to gnome?
[15:20] <willcooke> sounds wise to me
[15:21] <jbicha> maybe just target stuff to Artful? because I'm guessing there are a lot of bugs we want to fix
[15:21] <kenvandine> jibel, indeed, but i think it would still be good to add a tag
[15:21] <kenvandine> it won't be long and we'll have lots of artful bugs
[15:22] <jibel> jbicha, ^
[15:23] <kenvandine> i'll use gnome-17.10
[16:29] <kenvandine> willcooke, seb128: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-themes/+bugs?field.tag=gnome-17.10
[16:29] <willcooke> thanks kenvandine
[16:34] <Trevinho> ah, I forgot to say... But weekend time here... So have a nice one guys
[16:34] <Trevinho> It will be national holidays Tue here too...
[16:34] <Trevinho> So I might get Monday off too. But not sure yet :-).
[16:35] <Trevinho> Moving few days to seaside though...
[16:35] <Trevinho> willcooke: ^
[16:38] <seb128> Trevinho, have a nice w.e!
[16:38] <Trevinho> seb128: you too!
[16:39] <seb128> Trevinho, take some pictures for us
[16:39] <Trevinho> seb128: yeah, I've too many to share already :-)
[17:03] <Laney> nighty night
[17:11] <willcooke> have a good one Trevinho
[17:17] <oSoMoN> have a good week-end everyone
[17:21] <willcooke> Night all, happy weekend
[23:36] <HappyMan> hey guys, i'm on 16.04 and my pulseaudio can't get high-prio scheduling from rtkit... it says "permission denied". any pointers for where i could start looking?
[23:41] <sarnold> do you see any DENIED messages in dmesg or auditd logs that might point out insufficient apparmor policy?