[07:09] <pitti> Good morning, you brave Ubuntu desktop hackers!
[07:12] <duflu> Morning pitti. How goes?
[07:12] <pitti> duflu: very well, thanks! how about yourself?
[07:13] <duflu> pitti: Yes, good thanks
[07:18] <didrocks> hey pitti, duflu!
[07:18] <didrocks> pitti: nice blog post yesterday :)
[07:18] <pitti> bonjour didrocks ! ça va ?
[07:19] <pitti> didrocks: ah, tu as le vu sur le planet, très bien :)
[07:19] <duflu> G'day didrocks
[07:19] <didrocks> pitti: ça va, et toi ? Finalement pas de surprise ici pendant les élections
[07:19] <didrocks> (tant mieux ;))
[07:21] <pitti> didrocks: indeed, we were *very* relieved!
[07:21] <pitti> en marche, Europe :)
[07:25] <didrocks> pitti: we still need to have the party being #1 in the legislative elections so that he can do what he promised :p
[07:25] <didrocks> so, 6 more weeks of fun
[07:25] <didrocks> (btw, took some time to realize that "En Marche" was for "Emmanuel Macron")
[07:26] <pitti> didrocks: yeah, I realized a few months ago, very clever
[07:47] <oSoMoN> good morning everyone
[07:51] <didrocks> hey oSoMoN
[07:51] <oSoMoN> salut didrocks!
[08:01] <willcooke> morning all
[08:01] <Laney> hi ho
[08:02] <willcooke> sunshine today
[08:02] <willcooke> still cold though
[08:02] <pitti> hey willcooke, hello Laney, how are you?
[08:02] <willcooke> Hey pitti!
[08:02] <pitti> indeed, spring is back at last
[08:03] <Laney> forget the sun
[08:03] <Laney> We Want Rain!
[08:03] <Laney> hey pitti
[08:03] <Laney> how are you?
[08:03] <willcooke> A bit of rain would be good here, the new grass is looking sad
[08:03] <pitti> Laney: very well, thanks!
[08:04] <pitti> I was looking at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-backporters/+members this morning and realized that there are essentially no active members any more, except Laney
[08:04] <Laney> the allotment takes like 20 watering cans
[08:04] <Laney> pitti: if you want to join to process your own stuff, feel free
[08:04] <pitti> Laney: oh, is it that dry already again?
[08:04] <didrocks> Good morning england!
[08:04] <willcooke> hey didrocks!
[08:05] <Laney> pitti: just hasn't really rained for weeks
[08:05] <Laney> hey didrocks
[08:05] <Laney> you good?
[08:05] <didrocks> I'm great, thanks! Yourself?
[08:05] <Laney> pitti: I think micahg is basically the "leader" of backports atm
[08:05] <pitti> Laney: wow, that sounds backwards; UK dry, DE wet for two weeks
[08:06] <pitti> Laney: ah, thanks; I'll contact him
[08:08] <Laney> (such as there is one)
[08:08] <Laney> didrocks: doing goooooooooooood
[08:12]  * sil2100 wanted to help out the backporters team
[08:13] <sil2100> Had a quick chat with micahg and we'll set up some time next week for me to learn the ropes
[08:17] <Laney> nice
[08:18] <Laney> we've done BSPs on the queues in the past too
[08:18] <Laney> they help in the moment but it was never sustained
[08:18] <Laney> maybe this time it'll stick, but I think the process ought to be fixed really
[08:19] <sil2100> Is it much different from the SRU process? I guess with big backports it's just more code to review
[08:20] <sil2100> Procedure-wise that is
[08:20] <Laney> SRUs don't require someone to test every single reverse dependency explicitly
[08:20] <Laney> So actually they are easier
[08:20] <Laney> For big packages
[08:23] <pitti> but backports of leaf packages shoudl actually be simple
[08:24] <pitti> if the  backporter can demonstrate that they build and work in the target release, it's just a formality, no?
[08:24] <pitti> and leaf packages are the main focus of backports after all
[08:26] <Laney> Not if you need to update a build-dep for the leaf package you want to update.
[08:27] <Laney> And even in the leaf case the backporters team should probably just get out of the way until the thing lands in the queue.
[08:27] <pitti> oh, do our builders enable -backports by default? I thought that had a Priority that made it not getting used by default, and you have to explicitly choose it by either a versioned  build dep or -t foo-backports
[08:28] <Laney> backports builds get all backports
[08:28] <pitti> certainly better for backports to build against -updates only by default, and require -backports build deps to be done explicitly in d/control
[08:28] <pitti> uh, that does complicate the matter a lot indeed
[08:30] <Laney> At least back then the buildds didn't have a good enough resolver to be able to deal with that
[08:30] <Laney> It was just apt-get install [list of packages], ..., check that they are all at the right versions and bail if not
[08:31] <Laney> which broke with NotAutomatic and versioned dependencies
[10:00]  * duflu falls off chair
[10:26] <flexiondotorg> Morning desktopers
[10:27] <flexiondotorg> Laney I was reading LP: #1688627
[10:27] <flexiondotorg> With a little coercing it is possible to run web apps with Firefox.
[10:28] <willcooke> No, Firefox doesnt have a webapp mode
[10:30] <flexiondotorg> No specifically but it is possible to create a specific profile and coerce Firefox to use it, including dropping all the Firefox chrome.
[10:30] <flexiondotorg> So effectively isolating webapps to their own profiles.
[10:31] <willcooke> dunno, using a different profile feels a but clunky to me
[10:31] <willcooke> also, I /think/ I like the idea of having it open the normal browser - since all of your Amazon session would already be available.  But that can equally be seen as a bad thing
[10:32] <willcooke> But, this is a good opportunity to ship it as a snap, in Electron
[10:32] <Laney> 'it'?
[10:33] <Laney> I'm not proposing to do things with profiles
[10:33] <Laney> If someone wants to go and work on some other awesome implementation, go nuts
[10:33] <willcooke> it - Amazon web app
[10:33] <Laney> what kind of web app?
[10:33] <oSoMoN> flexiondotorg, I had the same idea and commented on the bug
[10:34] <Laney> Right, well, lots of people are interested, so go and take this task off my hands.
[10:34] <oSoMoN> willcooke, a snap wouldn’t be able to share existing amazon sessions with the browser though
[10:34] <Laney> I thought it would be okay to just do something simple. But if you want to work on a complicated nice thing, go for it.
[10:35] <willcooke> oSoMoN, that's the same for the old Amazon web app though.  And I dont know if thats good or bad
[10:35] <willcooke> I'm in favour of something simple here as well
[10:36] <oSoMoN> Laney, for the record I’m in favour of a simple solution as well, with minimal maintenance work
[10:36] <oSoMoN> in that regard using the default browser can’t be beaten
[10:37] <Laney> oSoMoN: Cool
[10:38] <Laney> I guess if a webapp mode fell in our laps we'd use it, but I don't think we want to do the work to create one out of what Firefox currently has
[10:38] <chrisccoulson> Please don't use a separate profile in Firefox. This feature has long been likely to disappear, is horribly broken, and a constant source of bugs because people don't really understand it
[10:39]  * oSoMoN goes and deletes his comment on the bug report
[10:39] <Laney> :D
[10:39] <willcooke> Laney, do I need to be on 17.10 for your Python script?
[10:40] <chrisccoulson> If you want to launch a second instance of Firefox with a separate profile, you have to pass the -no-remote option, otherwise it will just open in the running instance
[10:40] <chrisccoulson> -no-remote breaks single instance
[10:40] <chrisccoulson> So please don't do that
[10:40] <willcooke> :)
[10:40] <Laney> willcooke: Shouldn't need to be.
[10:41] <Laney> I only really tested it on my desktop and in a container with no network
[10:41] <Laney> My list of deps could be insufficient
[10:41]  * willcooke installs random libs
[10:41] <willcooke> I think I need gir1.2-geocodeglib-2.0
[10:41] <willcooke> and only 1.0 is in 16.04
[10:42] <Laney> ok
[10:42] <willcooke> time to upgrade
[10:42] <Laney> that could be correct
[10:42] <willcooke> nw
[10:42] <willcooke> I'll update my other machine
[10:42] <Laney> meh
[10:42] <Laney> why is ubiquity.desktop 'untrusted' in the latest daily?
[10:44] <willcooke> Re WebApps stuff generally - I've got a meeting in London on Friday with design, I'll see if they have a strong feeling one way or the other.  If not, I propose with go with using the users $DEFAULT_BROWSER
[10:46] <oSoMoN> seconded, if design is not against it
[11:54] <flexiondotorg> chrisccoulson Thanks for the info about -no-remote. Looks like coercing Firefox to wrap a website is not a good idea after all :-)
[12:03] <Laney> xnox: https://paste.ubuntu.com/24548482/ quick review?
[12:09] <jbicha> Laney: could you file a bug for the ubiquity launcher?
[12:09] <Laney> Why?
[12:09] <jbicha> that's a nautilus 3.24 security feature, it has to be marked as trusted in the user's gvfs database
[12:10] <jbicha> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-hardened/2017-April/000910.html
[12:10] <jbicha> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-hardened/2017-May/
[12:11] <jbicha> so maybe we can fix that in a casper script?
[12:11] <Laney> I just linked a patch which fixes it in the live session
[12:11] <jbicha> oh, cool
[12:12] <jbicha> but that will do it for every launcher in the live user's Desktop/ ? I don't think we want that
[12:13] <Laney> No.
[12:13] <jbicha> ok, I see the context now, sorry about that
[12:13] <Laney> for file in /usr/share/applications/ubiquity.desktop /usr/share/applications/kde4/ubiquity-kdeui.desktop; do
[12:14] <Laney> is it intentional that ubuntu-gnome doesn't show desktop icons?
[12:14] <jbicha> yes, it's intentional for Ubuntu GNOME 17.04 to match the upstream GNOME default with no desktop icons
[12:15] <Laney> ok
[12:15] <Laney> it's not very discoverable to launch Ubiquity IMO
[12:15] <jbicha> yes
[12:23] <jbicha> Fedora uses a welcome screen in the real live session like this: https://bicha.net/i/fedora-live-welcome.png
[12:24] <Laney> if you try, can you then install?
[12:25] <jbicha> yes, the fine print at the bottom of the welcome window says how (basically like Ubuntu GNOME does it)
[12:26] <Laney> k
[12:27] <jbicha> Ubuntu doesn't have the fine print to let you know that you can still Install if you choose Try from the Try/Install screen
[12:28] <Laney> presumably it's considered to be discoverable enough on the desktop
[12:29] <czajkowski> c
[12:30] <Laney> a cockatrice
[12:30]  * Laney screams
[12:31] <xnox> Laney, to be honest, we must ship dock 2 laucher extension thing; make it visible; make it pop in-out across all of the left hand side (not just top left corner)
[12:31] <xnox> replace the 3x3 dot matrix icon, with the ubuntu logo, etc.
[12:31] <xnox> Laney, the patch looks good.
[12:32] <Laney> thx
[12:34] <jbicha> xnox: if you can get concensus from the Desktop Team for something like Dash to Dock by default, then I think we're supposed to try to work with GNOME to get that option officially supported
[12:34] <jbicha> to support Mark's vision of a vanilla GNOME desktop
[12:41] <xnox> jbicha, back in the days of shipping gnome as the default desktop. We did do improvements and changes to defaults to make gnome usable, within what is allowable with pure configs. For example, I think we will need to pick and choose which extensions we want to enable and ship them.
[12:41] <xnox> engaging with upstream, yes. But for many things on how default desktop behaves has been left open-ended with the extensions framework.
[12:41] <Trevinho> Laney: since I got some reviews, would you still check the themes or is it fine if I approve and land that?
[12:41] <Trevinho> oh... reading my mind?
[12:41] <Trevinho> :-D
[12:42] <jbicha> xnox: dash to dock is a major UI change from upstream GNOME's vision
[12:42] <Trevinho> Laney: I've a bileto ppa ready if you mind
[12:42] <Laney> I know
[12:42]  * Laney saw it
[12:42] <xnox> jbicha, my understanding of Mark's comments was "no I am not going to pay to fork and maintain GNOME, or keep my design team to redesign Shell upstream"
[12:42] <Trevinho> ah ok :)
[12:43] <jbicha> xnox: right, which was my next point; if you don't get the dock option into GNOME, then Ubuntu is left scrambling to keep it working if GNOME breaks stuff that our implemenation depended on
[12:43] <xnox> jbicha, my actual problem with "activities" is that it is not discoverable at all for mouse based users. I guess many Shell users use the keyboard shortcut to invoke it, but i am a mouse person. and revealing activites all along the left edge would be a lot nicer than just the corner.
[12:43] <xnox> and there should be some visual clues about it. E.g. it could be sticking out abit / peaking from the side/corner when the desktop is empty.
[12:43] <jbicha> for instance, there's a proposal in GNOME to kill the 'dash' (that's the left sidebar in GNOME's Activities Overview), but Dash to Dock currently depends on that and extends it
[12:44] <xnox> jbicha, yeah, that. i noticed that all of the extensions APIs are marked as untable.
[12:44] <xnox> jbicha, is there any path to stabilise extensions API? or is it the case of "you are either upstream extension" or "you will bit rot"?
[12:44] <jbicha> my understanding is that extensions just monkey patch GNOME Shell's JavaScript
[12:45] <xnox> =/
[12:45] <jbicha> xnox: you don't have to convince me of the value of a left dock by default; I've tried arguing for it; it's the rest of the Desktop Team that you'll need to convince :)
[12:45] <Trevinho> Laney: instead if you want to land the debdiffs I've done, it would be nice.... I guess there's not really much to check in there.
[12:46] <Laney> link?
[12:46] <Laney> maybe after lunch
[12:46] <willcooke> @ extensions - kenvandine is going to be doing some work to reach out to the community and see what they would like, and then we can do a in-depth review of the options, check how well they are supported, how active they are etc.  And then we can all make a data-based decision.  jbicha how does that sit with you?
[12:46] <meetingology> willcooke: Error: "extensions" is not a valid command.
[12:46] <jbicha> personally, I don't necessary need the dock (but it's useful enough I might not disable it), but I think it's a *big* help for other people
[12:47] <jbicha> willcooke: I think we should try to ship as few extensions as possible to get a good user experience
[12:47] <kenvandine> indeed
[12:47] <jbicha> if you start asking everyone for opinions, you'll get a list of a dozen or more before long
[12:48] <kenvandine> a few could improve the experience for new users, but we don't want to go crazy
[12:48] <willcooke> Well, I think we'll start with a shorter list than "everything", and then we can use that as the basis for further research
[12:49] <kenvandine> the key will be getting a score of usefulnness/importance for a few select, well maintained extensions
[12:49] <kenvandine> not ask people to list their favorite extensions
[12:49] <jbicha> for me, it's basically just Dash to Dock…
[12:49] <kenvandine> that is top of my list
[12:49] <kenvandine> and topicons
[12:50] <jbicha> plus upstream's legacy tray in the bottom left is a poor experience, especially for touch but I think GNOME might be convinced about that without needing an extension to tweak that
[12:50] <jbicha> yes, that's topicons ^
[12:50] <kenvandine> jbicha, i also like the better volume extension.  that should just get merged into gnome-shell imo
[12:51] <kenvandine> makes the sound indicator behave like it did in unity with the mouse wheel, etc
[12:51] <kenvandine> i'll probably propose a patch upstream adding that
[12:52] <kenvandine> doubt that'll get resistance
[12:53] <jbicha> yes, I think upstream is a lot happier with patches :)
[13:24] <oSoMoN> dash to dock is also top of my personal list, FWIW
[13:37] <chrisccoulson> willcooke, if you're meeting with design - is it possible to get some design input for the startpage?
[13:44] <gQuigs> chrisccoulson: please add "Restore Previous Session" if you can :)
[14:10] <jbicha> Laney: are we good with landing the patches from LP: #1689239 in artful now?
[14:10] <willcooke> chrisccoulson, ah yes, sorry that had slipped my mind.  I think it will be easy to get agreement to update it per the Firefox standard.  Leave it with me
[14:11] <Laney> jbicha: If they're updating existing patches or upstream already, go for it
[14:24] <chatter29> hey guys
[14:24] <chatter29> allah is doing
[14:24] <chatter29> sun is not doing allah is doing
[14:24] <chatter29> to accept Islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
[14:26] <Laney> srsly
[14:41] <dobey> man i hate that guy
[14:56] <ogra_> FSVO "guy"
[15:01] <dobey> ogra_: acronym?
[15:02] <ogra_> for some value of
[15:04] <dobey> ogra_: well, given the extreme views on rights of women by the kinds of muslims who would go around in random irc channels constantly to promote it, would say it's pretty clear. :)
[15:10] <ogra_> dobey, i was referring to the fact that it is a bot, not a guy ;)
[15:12] <dobey> ogra_: i'm not sure it's a bot, given that it's always using a web gateway like kiwiirc
[15:13] <dobey> could be, sure, but the behavior is a bit un-bot-like
[15:14] <ogra_> one of the staff people once told me they consider it a bot ... just basing my judgement on that
[15:14] <ogra_> also ... the text is always the same across all channels i see it in
[15:21] <dobey> yeah
[15:21] <dobey> i think it's just copy/pasting
[15:22] <mdeslaur> I see this is where all the important discussions happen :)
[15:22] <dobey> it used to stay around longer going on forever, so at least that's not happening any more
[17:58] <willcooke> night all
[19:01] <fossfreedom> jbicha advised I should drop this here... everyone gtk+3.22.13 is causing major issues with ubuntu budgie (crashes) and clipboard issues for other desktops.  Just a heads up if we are thinking of introducing this into artful/zesty anytime soon - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=782453
[19:08] <jbicha> fossfreedom: it looks like that is being fixed in mutter 3.24.2 (which should be released later this week)
[19:09] <fossfreedom> I'm impressed with the turn around time.  All credit to the devs there.
[19:10] <fossfreedom> ah - I'm talking to Solus at the moment - that fix only fixes the clipboard issue  - there is something also in that part of the code that is killing budgie-desktop
[19:14] <jbicha> fossfreedom: maybe someone from Budgie should speak up in #gnome-shell on irc.gnome.org
[19:44] <jbicha> fossfreedom: and there's a gtk 3.22.14 now
[21:09] <jbicha> cyphermox: could you look into LP: #1687474 and LP: #1686726 ?
[21:12] <cyphermox> yeah
[21:41] <jbicha> robert_ancell: good morning, if you upload gnome-software 3.24.2, could you cherry-pick https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-software/commit/?id=31efff for LP: #1689239
[21:41] <robert_ancell> jbicha, sure. It was crashing here for some reason so I haven't uploaded it yet
[22:16] <fossfreedom> is GTK+3.22.11 now frozen in zesty or are we intending to uplift to v3.22.14 ?
[22:19] <jbicha> fossfreedom: we haven't discussed that yet, but what's your opinion?
[22:22] <fossfreedom> jbicha: it crashes budgie-desktop - but just found the commit that causes the crash - so either we move to v3.22.14 but reverse the offending commit or need to devise a patch to budgie-desktop to resolve.
[22:23] <jbicha> zesty might just stay with 3.22.11 since that's what Debian stretch currently has