[13:25] <Guest25187> Hi guys, just looking at the pdf variants of the various docs (eg. Ubuntu Server Guide) and was wondering if there was a latex source or something similar that they were created from?
[13:27] <pleia2> they're stored in bzr in docbook format, I'll get the link
[13:28] <pleia2> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/serverguide/trunk
[13:29] <Guest25187> Thanks thats exactly what I was after :)
[13:29] <pleia2> details about contributing and how to use them: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
[13:32] <Guest25187> Looking through that now. Thanks for the pointer :)
[13:33] <pleia2> you're welcome
[17:50] <dsmythies> GunnarHj : I found the "Meetingology bot crash course" notes that Lyz made one time. So, I can help chair if you want.
[17:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Thanks, but I really think it will go faster without it. (I've already made some preparations.)
[17:53] <dsmythies> GunnarHj : Huh? Do you mean that we will not bother with meetingology?
[17:54] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Well... Yes, that was my thought. Bad idea?
[17:54] <dsmythies> O.K. with me.
[17:55] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: We still have the IRC log as the 'minute', right?
[17:56] <dsmythies> Yes.
[18:00] <dsmythies> O.K. I am here for docs meeting.
[18:00] <jbicha> o/
[18:01] <GunnarHj> Meeting time! (without bot) Welcome all!
[18:01] <GunnarHj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[18:01] <GunnarHj> Who are here for the meeting (besides those who have already waved)?
[18:01] <pmatulis> o/
[18:02] <clissold345> Hi everyone.
[18:02] <GunnarHj> Hi clissold345!
[18:02] <dsmythies> Hi
[18:02] <GunnarHj> Ok, as regards the desktop stuff, I inserted some comments under respective agenda item. Hopefully you all agree with some of the steps taken, and if so there is no idea to talk about it further now. So I thought I'd echo respective item, and then you chime in if you want to add or question something or ask for clarifications. Is that a reasonable way to proceed?
[18:02] <dsmythies> Yes.
[18:03] <GunnarHj> * Overall presentation
[18:05] <GunnarHj> Nothing? Good. Next item:
[18:05] <GunnarHj> * How does ubuntu-docs fit in?
[18:05] <GunnarHj> (There are obviously quite a few things we need to consider further once we know more about the 17.10 desktop.)
[18:07] <dsmythies> agreed
[18:07] <GunnarHj> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trunk/view/head:/ubuntu-help/Makefile.am
[18:07] <GunnarHj> (Shows how small ubuntu-docs has become.)
[18:07] <dsmythies> which is good.
[18:08] <GunnarHj> Yes.
[18:08] <GunnarHj> Well, if nothing further, then next:
[18:08] <GunnarHj> * Workflow / bug tracker
[18:08] <dsmythies> looks good to me.
[18:09] <dsmythies> we will have to update the related "how to" wiki pages.
[18:09] <jbicha> I'd like to talk about gnome-user-docs string freeze, is now a good point to bring that up?
[18:10] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: indeed (the wiki)
[18:10] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Now or under translations. Take it now.
[18:11] <jbicha> GNOME historically has no docs string freeze at all (I guess because 1: it's hard to get people to write docs and 2: docs kind of needs the UI to be frozen first)
[18:12] <jbicha> I'd like to propose to the GNOME Docs team to change that policy so that we can ship better updated upstream translations
[18:12] <jbicha> I'd like to make the proposal with a suggested schedule
[18:12] <jbicha> https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointTwentyfive
[18:12] <jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
[18:13] <jbicha> I was thinking about Docs String Freeze being at the 3.26.0 release and a gnome-user-docs tarball would need to be released at 3.26.1 with the updated translations
[18:14] <jbicha> 3.26.0 is approximately Sep 13, and 3.26.1 is approximately Oct 4, Ubuntu 17.10 is released Oct 19
[18:14] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Sounds as a very good idea to me.
[18:14] <dsmythies> Sounds good to me. Is gnome likely to agree to an Ubunut driven timeline?
[18:14] <jbicha> at string freeze, gnome-3-26 would be branched and further work could continue in the git master branch (in preparation for the next GNOME major release)
[18:15] <jbicha> dsmythies: it would benefit all distros :)
[18:15] <dsmythies> O.K. great.
[18:15] <jbicha> it's particularly beneficial to say, Ubuntu and Fedora which do not ship the .0 release but ship .1 or .2
[18:16] <GunnarHj> On our side we need to call the translators' attention to the fact that the bulk of the desktop guide is to be translated upstream.
[18:17] <jbicha> ok, I'm ready for the next topic unless there are more comments…
[18:17] <dsmythies> lets move along.
[18:18] <GunnarHj> * Translations
[18:18] <jbicha> GunnarHj: have you done any GNOME translation work yet?
[18:18] <jbicha> and do we have any other translators here today?
[18:19] <GunnarHj> jbicha: No, I haven't. But other Swedish translators have, fortunately, so Swedish is well translated already. :)
[18:19] <GunnarHj> (Hannie let me know that she couldn't make it today.)
[18:19] <dsmythies> ... I was just going to write that Hannie usually comes.
[18:20] <GunnarHj> Ok, let's proceed...
[18:20] <GunnarHj> * Stable release updates
[18:21] <jbicha> translators should look into https://l10n.gnome.org/ and https://wiki.gnome.org/TranslationProject
[18:21] <dsmythies> great that you have decoupled.
[18:21] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Right. I'm going to post to the ubuntu-translators list.
[18:22] <clissold345> I have a point to ask about it. It will probably take a few minutes.
[18:22] <GunnarHj> clissold345: Let's give it some time.
[18:24] <clissold345> For the 16.04 help I would have liked to make some corrections to the help. But unfortunately that wasn't possible. Will it be possible now the decoupling has happened?
[18:25] <clissold345> For example if 18.04 is an LTS and I find some errors and want to correct them (after 18.04 has been released)?
[18:25] <jbicha> clissold345: English errors or translation errors?
[18:26] <clissold345> I'll correct the English but translations would need to be made too.
[18:26] <GunnarHj> clissold345: It will be possible to handle it in consultation with the translators.
[18:27] <jbicha> GunnarHj: wouldn't that mean that we would need to unfreeze docs for a time and then freeze again for translators before release?
[18:28] <dsmythies> like we do now for the serverguide.
[18:28] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Hmm... Probably. I have still not switched my thinking 100% to the fact that we now rely on the upstream procedures.
[18:29] <jbicha> well, do y'all want to modify my GNOME Docs proposed schedule to include that?
[18:29] <clissold345> GunnarHj, that would be great. Obviously it's not up to me alone to decide if the documentation is updated. Eg I realise the translators might have a significant amount of work to do.
[18:30] <GunnarHj> jbicha: It's not apparent to me how to include SRUing in a schedule...
[18:30] <jbicha> one issue is that GNOME currently doesn't bother with LTS releases project-wide
[18:30] <jbicha> if someone wants to maintain a module long-term, there's nothing stopping them though
[18:31] <jbicha> so if an Ubuntu contributor cares, they could set a schedule for how the thawing and re-freezing of gnome-user-docs would work
[18:33] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok. Maybe it would be good if you open for the thought to start with, then.
[18:33] <clissold345> It's a long way ahead but if 18.04 is an LTS (maintained for 5 years) we could perhaps consider a documentation update say 3 months after 18.04 has been released?
[18:34] <jbicha> clissold345: it's not that far ahead, Ubuntu 18.04 LTS might ship GNOME 3.26 which will releases in 3.5 months :)
[18:35] <GunnarHj> clissold345: Actually that's exactly what happened with 16.04 (for special reasons).
[18:36] <jbicha> I think I'll just start with proposing the simple schedule and if people step up to maintain gnome-user-docs LTS branches, that can be added on later
[18:37] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, sounds reasonable to me. (For really important changes we can simply decide that content is more important than translations.)
[18:38] <jbicha> so the SRU topic is undecided now, but next topic?
[18:38] <clissold345> GunnarHj, OK well that sounds promising for 18.04. If we can do a documentation release (say) 3 months after 18.04 is released we can fix significant errors (if there were any).
[18:38] <GunnarHj> jbicha: This is the SRU topic. :)
[18:39] <jbicha> GunnarHj: yes, I just didn't want to stall the meeting
[18:39] <GunnarHj> Moving on then:
[18:39] <GunnarHj> * GNOME events
[18:41] <GunnarHj> On the agenda as reminders. Also, having clissold345 in particular in mind for the sprint. Would you be interested, clissold345? (It's possible to apply for community funding.)
[18:41] <jbicha> I encourage y'all to ask Canonical for sponsorship funding if it would help you attend: https://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/funding/
[18:41] <jbicha> but apply early since it may take some time for the applications to be processed
[18:41] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Thanks for the link.
[18:43] <GunnarHj> clissold345: You don't have to answer now, of course. Let's move on.
[18:43] <GunnarHj> * Server
[18:44] <dsmythies> Said what I wanted to in the aengda
[18:44] <dsmythies> agenda
[18:44] <clissold345> GunnarHj, sorry I'm a bit slow. I think it will take me a while to start getting familiar with gnome help. So no I don't want to go the sprint this year.
[18:45] <dsmythies> very happy to be getting subject matter expert contributions.
[18:45] <GunnarHj> clissold345: Ok, that's fine.
[18:45] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Right, it's nice to see the involvement of the server team folks.
[18:46] <dsmythies> not sure I should be gating point release on getting help with update stuff, but have now "kicked" serverteam e-mail list.
[18:46] <clissold345> dsmythies, do you need more input for the server guide? Will the experts give it?
[18:47] <dsmythies> Yes, more, always more. They tend to ignore the serverguide requirments, but it has been on their agenda the last month or two.
[18:48] <dsmythies> including some new serverguide items to add.
[18:49] <dsmythies> should we move on?
[18:49] <clissold345> dsmythies, do you know the chapters/sections that most need attention? Let them know what parts most need revising?
[18:50] <dsmythies> We could review Peter's list on the wiki. The whole thing needs a good going over.
[18:50] <pmatulis> agreed
[18:50] <dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
[18:51] <GunnarHj> Are we ready to move to next topic?
[18:51] <dsmythies> yes.
[18:51] <GunnarHj> * help.ubuntu.com
[18:51] <GunnarHj> I think the publishing issues due to several packages is a homework for dsmythies and myself.
[18:51] <GunnarHj> Publishing "dev" versions? In the case of the desktop guide we'd then publish something different compared to released packages.
[18:53] <dsmythies> Yes. the thought is to publish, and perhaps, be out of sync with the released package and or the offical tranlsated stuff.
[18:53] <dsmythies> However, then there is a spot to find "fix committed" stuff.
[18:53] <clissold345> GunnarHj, publishing a dev version of the desktop help would sometimes be useful for review purposes. Do you remember Pete who checked the printer setup page?
[18:53] <dsmythies> we do it already anyhow, just only about 2 months before release.
[18:54] <dsmythies> now, I'm saying lets just do it all the time.
[18:55] <dsmythies> in the case of 17.10 help docs, it would allow us lots of time to find issues with the html versions.
[18:56] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: You haven't realized how complicated the publishing will be with 3 sources. ;)
[18:56] <dsmythies> Yes, I have, which is why I want to get started.
[18:56] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, that's a point.
[18:56] <dsmythies> it will end up being out of time before we get it to work.
[18:57] <clissold345> I like the idea of a regularly published dev version of the desktop help but it's not worth it if it's time-consuming for Gunnar or Doug.
[18:58] <dsmythies> for the serverguide it might redcue the number of point releases.
[18:58] <dsmythies> once we have it working the overhead is low.
[18:59] <dsmythies> and we wouldn't always do it for every trunk update.
[19:00] <dsmythies> I have a time limit of 15 minutes from now.
[19:01] <dsmythies> I assume Gunnar will return.
[19:03] <GunnarHj> Sorry, net connection problems...
[19:03] <clissold345> Move on to Miscellaneous?
[19:03] <dsmythies> pmatulis : do you have any update from your big thread "Feedback request | Documentation site reorg, switch to Markdown"
[19:04] <dsmythies> by the way, i just an -email from the serverteam. They will look at the update stuff, and help get it sorted out in terms of the serverguide.
[19:07] <dsmythies> I have a max of 7 minutes left.
[19:07] <GunnarHj> While waiting for pmatulis, did you conclude anything as regards the dev publishing?
[19:07] <pmatulis> dsmythies, well... it's hard to bring in new ideas? :)
[19:08] <dsmythies> No. I'll make a proposed version on my test web site and e-mail you all the link. It will just have a place holder for desktop at the moment.
[19:08] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, thanks.
[19:08] <dsmythies> becuase as Gunner mentioned, that will be a challenge.
[19:09] <dsmythies> pmatulis: So that is a no then?
[19:09] <pmatulis> dsmythies, exactly, my proposal was shot down
[19:10] <dsmythies> Well, that wasn't my understanding with respect to the serverguide. It was my understanding with respect to desktop docs.
[19:11] <pmatulis> i accept that the only viable target (to change) was the server guide but i was left demoralized
[19:11] <pmatulis> it would lead to yet another round of critiques. i'm human
[19:12] <dsmythies> Are we done?
[19:12] <clissold345> Decide on another meeting some time?
[19:13] <GunnarHj> pmatulis: Sorry to hear that you took it that way. AFAICT the response you got was factual, and not directed towards you or your good intentions.
[19:14] <GunnarHj> clissold345: Let's take that on the list.
[19:14] <dsmythies> I agree with Gunnar.
[19:14] <dsmythies> I have to go. Thanks all and bye.
[19:14] <pmatulis> there was a lot of unwarranted sniping
[19:14] <clissold345> Thanks everyone.
[19:15] <GunnarHj> Thanks all, and sorry again for the interruption...
[21:12] <jbicha> GunnarHj: maybe gnome-user-docs and gnome-getting-started-docs should have docs teams subscribed to their bugs
[21:16] <GunnarHj> jbicha: It depends on what you mean by "docs team". I see that ~ubuntu-core-doc is already subscribed to gnome-user-docs bugs, which is good, and I think the same should be the case with gnome-getting-started-docs.
[21:18] <jbicha> whatever team you think is fine with me
[21:21] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok. Just added ~ubuntu-core-doc to gnome-getting-started-docs.
[21:24] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Btw, when we talk about those two packages, will all the language specific binaries automatically be included in "main"? I think it's important that they are, or else they won't be pulled via the installer.
[21:25] <jbicha> GunnarHj: they are all in main
[21:25] <jbicha> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=gnome-getting-started-docs
[21:26] <jbicha> you could also use the rmadison CLI tool (from the devscripts package)
[21:28] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Are you sure of that?
[21:28] <GunnarHj> $ rmadison gnome-getting-started-docs-sv
[21:28] <GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.18.2-1ubuntu1 | xenial/universe  | all
[21:28] <GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.22.0-1ubuntu1 | yakkety/universe | all
[21:28] <GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.24.0-1ubuntu1 | zesty/universe   | all
[21:28] <GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.24.1-0ubuntu2 | artful/universe  | all
[21:30] <GunnarHj> jbicha: I have a feeling that since those binaries are neither seeded nor depended upon, they somehow need to be explicitily/manually moved to "main".
[21:32] <jbicha> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=gnome-getting-started-docs&S=on
[21:33] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Precisely. And that's what worries me.
[21:34] <jbicha> GunnarHj: also affects gnome-user-docs, but I just asked in #ubuntu-release for you
[21:35] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, thanks!
[21:45] <GunnarHj> jbicha: This is actually a wider issue. See for instance:
[21:45] <GunnarHj> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=libreoffice-dictionaries&S=on
[21:45] <GunnarHj> lo-dicts builds a lot of binaries which are pulled via language-selector in the same way. Most of them are in main, but apparently not all.
[21:45] <GunnarHj> Up to 17.04 this has been 'compensated' through language-selector-gnome, which has pulled what the installer didn't pull. But I assume that language-selector-gnome won't be in use in 17.10...
[21:51] <jbicha> could you add that to #ubuntu-release or maybe email ubuntu-devel or ubuntu-release about whether all language pkgs for main pkgs should be in main too
[21:57] <GunnarHj> jbicha: I think I'll talk to someone, e.g. L_aney, tomorrow. (I don't see your entry in #ubuntu-release yet.)
[21:58] <jbicha> before you arrived there, I wrote
[21:58] <jbicha> "gnome-user-docs & gnome-getting-started-docs were promoted to main but could we get all of their binary pkgs in main too for the other languages?"
[21:59] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Thanks for letting me know. I'll follow up on it tomorrow.
[21:59] <jbicha> np, nearly everyone has universe enabled anyway
[22:00] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Unfortunately I don't think that helps. But I'll find out.
[22:01] <jbicha> GunnarHj: maybe we just need to add them to
[22:01] <jbicha> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.artful/view/head:/supported
[22:03] <GunnarHj> jbicha: Hmm... That may be it. It's over my head....
[22:03] <jbicha> ok, I think that's part of the ultimate answer :)
[22:05] <jbicha> I think usually for stuff to be in main, it has to be a recommends or depends of something in one of Ubuntu's main seeds
[22:05] <jbicha> supported is a seed that isn't installed by default
[22:05] <jbicha> 'desktop' is where ubuntu-desktop comes from
[22:05] <jbicha> anyway, have a good night!
[22:07] <GunnarHj> jbicha: So there is a distinction between "seeded" and "installed". Thanks for the lesson. If that file is the answer, it's in a need for a general review.