[04:48] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[04:59] <lotuspsychje> hey EriC^
[06:25] <ducasse> good morning
[06:25] <lotuspsychje> hey ducasse
[06:26] <lotuspsychje> all ok?
[06:27] <ducasse> all good, yes. you?
[06:27] <lotuspsychje> splendid weather again here
[06:27] <ducasse> same here. work today?
[06:28] <lotuspsychje> yep, tomorrow off
[06:32] <lordievader[m]> Good morning
[06:32] <ducasse> hi lordievader[m]
[06:32] <lordievader[m]> Hey ducasse, how are you?
[06:33] <ducasse> all good, and you?
[06:35] <lordievader[m]> Doing good here :)
[06:38] <ducasse> still waking up, but some more tea will clear that up :)
[06:39] <lotuspsychje> :p
[06:54] <lordievader[m]> :)
[06:54] <lordievader[m]> ducasse: Enjoy
[07:16] <lotuspsychje> hey brunch
[07:17] <brunch> good morning, lotuspsychje :)
[07:24] <lotuspsychje> http://www.deviantart.com/customization/screenshots/nix/newest/
[07:24] <lotuspsychje> newest desks
[07:32] <lordievader[m]> In that category, I like browsing https://www.reddit.com/r/battlestations/
[07:33] <lotuspsychje> lordievader[m]: monsters :p
[07:33] <lordievader[m]> ?
[07:34] <lotuspsychje> monster machines to battle
[07:38] <lordievader[m]> Nah, some are friendly ;)
[11:52] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[12:00] <EriC^^> hiya BluesKaj
[12:01] <BluesKaj> Hi EriC^^ , wwhat's happening?
[12:01] <EriC^^> not much, eating some icecream :D you?
[12:02] <BluesKaj> just morning coffee here
[12:02] <EriC^^> cool
[12:02] <EriC^^> where in canada are you from?
[12:03] <BluesKaj> trying to get geared up for the day ahead. I'm about 400KM North of Toronto
[12:04] <EriC^^> ah cool
[12:05] <BluesKaj> small town near Lake Huron /North Channel..very touristy area
[12:06] <EriC^^> that's cool
[12:08] <BluesKaj> yeah , it's nice here...winters are very cold by your mediterranean climate standards tho
[12:09] <EriC^^> yeah, some people i knew from canada used to say you guys got special jackets against the cold
[12:09] <EriC^^> the jackets there are designed some way and are great
[12:11] <EriC^^> i've always wanted to visit canada, i had some friends there i knew from irc and we stayed friends for a long time but never met
[12:13] <EriC^^> seems like a very fun and peaceful country at the same time
[12:14] <EriC^^> you were born there?
[12:18] <BluesKaj> EriC^^, I was born in Finland to swedish speaking parents, sort of like Linux Torvalds. We emigrated to Canada when i was a small child. So I basically grew up here.
[12:20] <BluesKaj> Linus Torvalds :-)
[12:25] <BluesKaj> What about you EriC^^ , lived in Lebanon all your life?
[13:44] <EriC^^> BluesKaj: i was born in the usa, came to lebanon when i was about 6 and was raised here in lebanon
[13:44] <EriC^^> hey pauljw
[13:45] <BluesKaj> EriC^^, interesting and you stayed, still have American citizenship ?
[13:45] <EriC^^> yup
[13:45] <BluesKaj> cool
[13:48] <BluesKaj> I've lived in Canada since I was 4 yrs old ...I'm an old retired guy now ...kids are all grown and I have 5 grandchildren
[13:49] <EriC^^> that's nice :)
[13:52] <BluesKaj> Linux has become my hobby, especially in winter , it's kinda fun :-)
[14:05] <EriC^^> yup
[14:21] <pauljw> hey EriC^^ , BluesKaj, everyone.  how's it going today?
[14:22] <BluesKaj> hi pauljw, fine here, and you ?
[14:30] <pauljw> doing well, BluesKaj.  keep getting called away from the computer... :)
[14:59] <BluesKaj> Dreyk, check your irc cleint/internet connection or turn off auto join
[15:52] <tgm4883> Is there a name for when someone has added so many 'fixes' to something that it doesn't even resemble the original item anymore so you don't want to work on it?
[15:59] <BluesKaj> tgm4883, patched to death ?
[16:00] <tgm4883> BluesKaj: I was hoping for a one word catchy name, like the xy problem
[16:02] <BluesKaj> catchy , ok patchy :-)
[18:01] <lotuspsychje> good evening to all
[18:06] <lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/06/latest-ubuntu-17-10-update-ditches-unity-desktop-installs-gnome
[18:39] <EriC^^> hey all
[18:40] <lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
[18:41] <EriC^^> what's up lotuspsychje ?
[18:41] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: just finished work
[18:42] <EriC^^> cool
[18:42] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: tommorow first laptop delivery for a customer
[18:42] <EriC^^> nice!
[18:42] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: Clevo i3 4gig ram 850 pro samsung ssd
[18:42] <EriC^^> nice :D
[18:43] <EriC^^> it's the dawn of a new time
[18:43] <EriC^^> hehe you know what i mean
[18:43] <lotuspsychje> yeah
[18:43] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: this customer needs windows, so its an exception
[18:44] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: i was thinking to install ubuntu-gnome  16.04 on first ubuntu system i sell
[18:44] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: so the 18.04 unity=>gnome shock will be less
[18:45] <EriC^^> yeah that's an idea
[18:45] <EriC^^> still cant believe unity will go
[18:45] <lotuspsychje> same here
[18:46] <lotuspsychje> i silently hope, that gnome survey will give us a nice workable default gnome
[18:46] <EriC^^> hope so
[18:47] <EriC^^> i never liked gnome much, felt fat
[18:47] <lotuspsychje> gnome2 was nice
[18:47] <EriC^^> never tried that one
[18:47] <EriC^^> i think ill stick with unity
[18:47] <EriC^^> its been my favorite
[18:48] <EriC^^> it's hard to part with it :D
[18:48] <lotuspsychje> i know, but i cant risk to mess with my customers
[18:48] <EriC^^> xubuntu is lacking lubuntu is pale gnome is fat kde is fisiky
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> so i thought, why not training them to gnome right away?
[18:49] <EriC^^> yeah it's a good idea
[18:49] <EriC^^> you know, i wish you could like make an os that has multiple de nicely and they can choose which to keep
[18:50] <EriC^^> everybody puts linux and first thing they think is i wanna try de's
[18:51] <EriC^^> just an idea
[18:51] <lotuspsychje_> yeah
[18:51] <lotuspsychje_> EriC^^: they say unity will still in repos right, but wont it die silently?
[18:52] <EriC^^> i hope so!
[18:52] <EriC^^> i think i'll still run it far into the future
[18:52] <EriC^^> i'm still on xchat to this day!
[18:52] <lotuspsychje_> lol
[18:52] <lotuspsychje_> well it sure is lighter then hex
[18:53] <EriC^^> yeah it looks nicer and just is nice
[18:53] <EriC^^> it's odd unity is great, i wonder what the motivation was to cut it
[18:54] <EriC^^> if anything is just needs a button "always behind" in the window and then its perfect almost (xubuntu has that)
[18:55] <lotuspsychje_> what i find intrusive, is to create something to take away
[18:55] <lotuspsychje_> why not leave it alive and keep it updated and focus to gnome?
[18:55] <EriC^^> what do you mean?
[18:55] <EriC^^> yeah
[18:55] <EriC^^> saving costs i guess
[18:55] <EriC^^> $$
[18:56] <lotuspsychje_> same for the BQ phones, users payed for a phone, now in june updates ends?
[18:56] <EriC^^> it's the flagship though
[18:56] <lotuspsychje_> you cant rip off ppl like that
[18:56] <EriC^^> yeah
[18:57] <lotuspsychje_> im sure BQ would say now, you can still install android image
[18:57] <EriC^^> aha
[18:58] <EriC^^> that's shitty
[18:58] <EriC^^> oh well, c'est la vie!
[18:59] <EriC^^> $ makes the world turn around
[18:59] <lotuspsychje> buy one, throw away one..
[18:59] <EriC^^> it's just so inconsistent
[19:00] <EriC^^> ubuntu is supposed to be something
[19:00] <EriC^^> and it's a company trying to be profitable at the same time
[19:00] <EriC^^> somebody should make an actual ubuntu
[19:00] <EriC^^> lol
[19:00] <lotuspsychje> its ironical
[19:01] <EriC^^> yeah
[19:01] <lotuspsychje> but mark says desktop will keep important so
[19:01] <lotuspsychje> lucky us
[19:01] <nacc> to be clear, ubuntu is not a company
[19:02] <EriC^^> i dont buy it a lot, why's unity going
[19:02] <lotuspsychje> nacc: but devs get payed right?
[19:02] <EriC^^> nacc: how so?
[19:02] <nacc> lotuspsychje: canonical employees get paid
[19:02] <nacc> EriC^^: canonical is a company
[19:02] <lotuspsychje> right
[19:02] <nacc> EriC^^: ubuntu is an open source project
[19:03] <EriC^^> well yeah but it's target is to make the company profitable
[19:03] <nacc> lotuspsychje: and other companies pay their employees to contribute to ubuntu as well (IBM, Intel, etc.)
[19:03] <nacc> EriC^^: whose target?
[19:03] <EriC^^> canonical's
[19:03] <EriC^^> if ubuntu doesn't make money bam it's gone no?
[19:03] <nacc> ubuntu makes $0
[19:03] <nacc> EriC^^: i think you're blurring a line unnecessarily
[19:04] <nacc> In that canonical is a for-profit company, yes, I think canonical's goal is to make a profit
[19:04] <EriC^^> yeah and ubuntu is their project
[19:04] <nacc> That does not, in and of itself, determine ubuntu's direction in all matters
[19:05] <nacc> there is a lot of stuff in ubuntu that has nothing to do with revenue or profit
[19:05] <lotuspsychje> lets say canonical looses money, ubuntu desktop will remain stable?
[19:05] <EriC^^> well that's nice to know
[19:05] <nacc> EriC^^: i mean, most of universe, probably :)
[19:05] <nacc> EriC^^: it's all just normal open source stuff
[19:06] <lotuspsychje> its hard for us to divide canonical & ubuntu
[19:06] <nacc> lotuspsychje: i'm not sure how to answer that
[19:06] <lotuspsychje> but we are users, not insiders
[19:06] <nacc> lotuspsychje: i have to wear both hats, so i divide them all the time :)
[19:06] <lotuspsychje> i see
[19:06] <nacc> lotuspsychje: but i understand that
[19:07] <lotuspsychje> the infrastructure is complex
[19:07] <nacc> lotuspsychje: which infrastructure?
[19:07] <EriC^^> it doesn't feel like canonical cares about the users of ubuntu nor the ideology it presented with ubuntu itself
[19:07] <EriC^^> take the name itself
[19:07] <lotuspsychje> i mean like, IOT, servers, ubuntu core, all branches their going
[19:08] <nacc> EriC^^: what makes you say that? (two statements there, I guess maybe the first one)
[19:09] <EriC^^> nacc: well i read that for instance phones were dropped cause they were deemed unprofitable, and also unity 8 was dropped cause it guess it's related to phones and unity will cost money to maintain
[19:10] <nacc> EriC^^: the canonical investment in both was dropped, yes
[19:10] <EriC^^> and unity was like the flagship easy going easy to use ubuntu "unity" unifying desktop, and it's like no money it's gone
[19:11] <nacc> EriC^^: so you would expect a company to stay invested in a revenue-losing venture (not justifying it, just trying to understand) -- e.g., phone or unity8.
[19:12] <lotuspsychje> well i also understand, times changes
[19:12] <nacc> EriC^^: tbh, unity was a failure
[19:12] <lotuspsychje> if wayland is the future..perhaps we cant stay behind?
[19:12] <nacc> EriC^^: well, 'convergence' was -- via unity8
[19:12] <nacc> no one else went that route
[19:12] <nacc> and it's impossible for one distribution to maintain a fork like that forever, it's just too expensive
[19:12] <EriC^^> i guess either i have it confused or i think its more of a misleading kind of thing, like i read that the guy was a millionaire and wanted to make an open source project thats friendly to users and stuff like that, feels more like a club or idea or so, and then it's like it's some guy who's trying to show he can put nice profit numbers out of an open source project
[19:13] <nacc> (a fork of the entire graphics stack that is)
[19:13] <nacc> EriC^^: I certainly think that's how it started
[19:13] <nacc> EriC^^: but he also started a *company* to do it
[19:13] <EriC^^> the logo, the names of the os etc they all convey a certain idea, but it's far from the actual concept that's going on
[19:13] <nacc> EriC^^: not just paying existing open source developers without any direction
[19:14] <nacc> EriC^^: i think it's perfectly legitimate to not favor the direction ubuntu is going
[19:14] <nacc> EriC^^: but i think it's also irrational to think one person is going to intentionally lose money to keep non-paying users happy
[19:14] <nacc> (just my opinion, to be clear)
[19:14] <nacc> EriC^^: i think phone and unity8 were both huge mistakes, tbh
[19:14] <EriC^^> well he's a millionaire
[19:14] <EriC^^> :P
[19:15] <EriC^^> or billionaire?
[19:15] <nacc> EriC^^: neither should have ever been done
[19:15] <nacc> EriC^^: yes, and probalby he'd like to stay one :)
[19:15] <EriC^^> well yeah
[19:16] <lotuspsychje> are there distro's that keep their systems up to date for free?
[19:16] <EriC^^> so why the whole ubuntu name and logo and and and
[19:16] <nacc> lotuspsychje: how do you mean? ubuntu, fedora and opensuse, among others, are free
[19:16] <nacc> lotuspsychje: debian, arch, etc.
[19:16] <EriC^^> lotuspsychje: i guess arch isn't a company
[19:16] <nacc> lotuspsychje: or do you mean 'for free' as in 'without cost to the distribution' ?
[19:17] <lotuspsychje> yeah without cost to distr
[19:17] <nacc> lotuspsychje: i'm not sure how arch does it, tbh. They might get donations from users, e.g.
[19:18] <nacc> lotuspsychje: but just hosting a distribution takes $$
[19:18] <lotuspsychje> ah yes
[19:19] <nacc> EriC^^: i wasn't around when ubuntu started (at canonical). I've been using ubuntu roughly since then, though. What specifically do you feel like is not following ubuntu's mission or name?
[19:23] <EriC^^> nacc: well the dropping off the phones, unity 8 and unity all together due to profitability issues
[19:23] <nacc> EriC^^: so i think basically, canonical was propping up unity8
[19:24] <nacc> EriC^^: and mark has chosen to stop that
[19:24] <nacc> EriC^^: if unity8 wants to continue because it's the 'right' choice, that's a community decision to make
[19:24] <nacc> EriC^^: tbh, like i said, i think the phone idea was stupid
[19:24] <nacc> EriC^^: and was guaranteed to fail
[19:24] <nacc> EriC^^: i think unity8 is tied to phone/convergence
[19:24] <nacc> EriC^^: once the latter is gone, the former is not really sensible
[19:25] <EriC^^> yeah, why drop unity altogether though
[19:25] <nacc> EriC^^: they are just changing the default
[19:25] <nacc> EriC^^: unity is still in the archives
[19:25] <nacc> unity 7 that is
[19:25] <EriC^^> it wont get any updates past 18.04 though no?
[19:26] <nacc> EriC^^: why not?
[19:26] <nacc> EriC^^: it's not being removed from ubuntu
[19:26] <EriC^^> well that's cool
[19:26] <nacc> EriC^^: at least, afaik
[19:26] <EriC^^> i thought it won't be in the repos or have any changes being made at all
[19:26] <nacc> EriC^^: i mean it'll be in universe and someone has to keep taking care of it
[19:26] <nacc> EriC^^: that is not my understanding, but I could be wrong
[19:27] <nacc> EriC^^: it will be like xfce4 or gnome-shell is now
[19:27] <nacc> EriC^^: although gnome-shell just moved to main in 17.10
[19:28] <nacc> EriC^^: and probably unity will drop to universe in 17.10 as well
[19:28] <EriC^^> oh ok
[19:28] <nacc> EriC^^: i'm not on desktop or really involved, so i'm not sure what the plan is for 18.04 exactly
[19:28] <nacc> EriC^^: but i don't think there's any intention of it being removed
[19:28] <nacc> EriC^^: just a default change (gnome going forward)
[19:28] <lotuspsychje> articles say it will still be on repos
[19:28] <nacc> which puts ubuntu more in line with many other distributions
[19:30] <EriC^^> nice! :D
[19:30] <xangua> Too much chocolate
[19:30] <lotuspsychje> hey xangua & KingsQuest
[19:32] <KingsQuest> hello
[19:32] <KingsQuest> thank you
[19:39] <lotuspsychje> xangua: is there such a thing as too much?
[19:40] <xangua> 10 chocolate bars
[19:40] <xangua> 8 left
[19:40] <lotuspsychje> lol
[19:41] <lotuspsychje> wash it down with a couple of beers :p
[19:41] <lotuspsychje> welcome tamaros
[20:07] <Bashing-om> Chores caught up .. and back on the keyboard :)
[20:07] <lotuspsychje> wb Bashing-om
[20:08] <lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: support slow & steady
[20:10] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: I be watching now .. see what my 2 cents is worth :)
[20:10] <lotuspsychje> :p
[20:18] <lotuspsychje> bbl guys bedtime :p
[20:19] <Bashing-om> Nite nite lotuspsychje o/
[20:19] <lotuspsychje> nite ; )