[00:00] <Pharaoh_Atem> ABI changes are inevitable, the question is, is your infra prepared to deal with it
[00:00] <niemeyer> Pharaoh_Atem: A bit of a "we do things differently and you don't understand because you're not in the cool kids group" sentiment, and the design ends up not paying enough respect to human factors which are relevant for reading and understanding written code over time
[00:00] <Pharaoh_Atem> for a lot of people, the answer is no, because they don't think it's a thing that happens
[00:00] <Pharaoh_Atem> niemeyer: ah, that
[00:00] <Pharaoh_Atem> I guess my experience with C++ was different from yours, because I didn't get that feeling
[00:01] <Pharaoh_Atem> that's the feeling I get from the golang people, actually
[00:01] <niemeyer> Pharaoh_Atem: See the thread below this, for example: https://twitter.com/gniemeyer/status/857655335309500416
[00:02] <niemeyer> Pharaoh_Atem: Sure, there's some of that in every knowledge group, true.. but the problem is when you stop considering some of the consequences of choices that will hurt even the people that are well aware of the language because you think people are just not used to it yet
[00:02] <niemeyer> Pharaoh_Atem: There's a lot of that in Haskell too, for example
[00:03] <Pharaoh_Atem> definitely in most of the functional language communities
[00:03] <niemeyer> With Monads being the prime exmaple
[00:03] <niemeyer> The case I mentioned above is pretty obviously a terrible decision, for instance..
[00:04] <niemeyer> They're basically changing the ownership logic of a typical a+b statement
[00:04] <niemeyer> Sure, you can get used to it.. but what misses from the analysis is that this will _remain_ a cost, forever, even to experienced developers
[00:04] <niemeyer> It's brain space which is now occupied by a flag saying "Watch out for it!"
[00:04] <Pharaoh_Atem> the inability to directly concatenate strings by adding them together is weird
[00:05] <Pharaoh_Atem> it's not even hard syntatic sugar to support
[00:05] <niemeyer> Yeah, and that's pretty representative of the design choices in Rust
[00:05] <Pharaoh_Atem> syntactic sugar, even
[00:05] <Pharaoh_Atem> there are things to like about Rust, but *shrugs*
[00:05] <Chipaca> that a+b modifies a is surprising to me, even without the ownership thing
[00:05] <Pharaoh_Atem> it implies =+
[00:05] <Pharaoh_Atem> which is weird
[00:06] <Pharaoh_Atem> C++ has a similar concept, but that's glossed over with how overloaded operators work
[00:06] <Pharaoh_Atem> so you don't notice it (thankfully)
[00:06] <niemeyer> Right, exactly.. but again, the excuse is that you get used to it, and they are right. The problem is that it will _remain_ a cognitive cost, forever..
[00:07] <niemeyer> Because as children and for dozens of years we've learned that a+b does not modify a..
[00:07] <Pharaoh_Atem> as humans for centuries, we've learned that
[00:07] <Pharaoh_Atem> eons even
[00:08] <Chipaca> your pharaohness is leaking
[00:08] <Pharaoh_Atem> By the Hand of God
[00:09] <Chipaca> o... k?
[00:09]  * Chipaca backs away slowly
[00:09] <Chipaca> srsly i should sleep :-)
[00:09] <Chipaca> o/
[00:09] <Pharaoh_Atem> but yeah, the ownership principle doesn't mean you can't have nice things
[00:12] <Pharaoh_Atem> hey JamieBennett
[05:24] <kunal> Hello Community
[05:25] <kunal> I have a problem . I am using ubuntu core 16.04 . I want to copy some data from my pendrive to /home folder. Please help me... How to do it?
[05:36] <kunal> hello everyone.... please help
[18:15] <Hilikus> i'm using snap try to mount an exploded snap. that snap has a command in the snapcraft.yaml file but it's not working because it can't find the file i'm referencing. what is the relative path in a "command:" argument?