[02:05] <duflu> Hmm, great that Chrome 59's menus are following the Ambiance theme now, but slightly strange
[02:06] <duflu> Being consistent with the OS feels like the app itself has lost self-consistency
[06:00] <koza> morning folks
[06:01] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers!
[06:36] <duflu> Morning koza, oSoMoN
[06:41] <oSoMoN> hey duflu
[07:03] <didrocks> good morning
[07:09] <ricotz> oSoMoN, hey, this might need a retry https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/1:5.3.3-0ubuntu1/+build/12706388
[07:38] <oSoMoN> ricotz, huh, indeed, good
[07:38] <oSoMoN> good catch
[07:39] <oSoMoN> ricotz, ever seen this kind of "waiting for lock" issue when building LO ?
[07:39] <oSoMoN> didrocks, hey, can you help with retrying https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/1:5.3.3-0ubuntu1/+build/12706388 ?
[07:40] <didrocks> oSoMoN: so cancel + retry, correct?
[07:40] <oSoMoN> didrocks, yes please
[07:40] <didrocks> cancelling in progress
[07:41] <Laney> moin
[07:42] <didrocks> hey Laney, on your way?
[07:42] <Laney> hi didrocks
[07:42] <Laney> yeah, on the train
[07:42] <ricotz> oSoMoN, never seen this yet
[07:42] <Laney> how's it going?
[07:42] <oSoMoN> didrocks, ever this that kind of deadlock?
[07:42] <didrocks> oSoMoN: not at the time I was building openoffice
[07:43] <didrocks> (cancelling as well I guess will take time…)
[07:43] <didrocks> Laney: good, yourself?
[07:43] <Laney> decent
[07:43] <Laney> just crossed the Trent
[07:43] <didrocks> oSoMoN: retried
[07:43] <oSoMoN> thanks!
[07:44] <didrocks> yw
[07:44] <ricotz> thanks
[07:48]  * Laney is le warm
[07:49] <didrocks> open the window (if you can)
[07:49] <didrocks> then it's noise vs warm
[07:49] <didrocks> your pick :)
[07:50] <Laney> can't, they need a special key
[07:50] <Laney> :'(
[07:53] <didrocks> so, I guess there are some AC (which is defective)?
[08:00] <jamesh> so I guess today is when the UK reelects Theresa May?
[08:21] <Trevinho> hey guys...
[08:21] <Trevinho> Anyone know what's wrong with fonts-noto-cjk ?
[08:24] <Trevinho> If I keep it installed, all the times I rebuild something (like any gnome app) and I run it  again libfreetypes takes *seconds* (10?) to rebuild its cache (I guess)...
[08:24] <Trevinho> Strace just points at it
[08:24] <Trevinho> uninstalling it makes things better
[08:28] <Laney> fraid not
[08:28] <Trevinho> anyway... keep it in mind... At least when running from a jhbuild... Or my jhbuild .:o
[08:29] <Trevinho> tested in 4 artful machines.
[08:30] <Laney> it's not something that users do all the time
[08:30] <Laney> but I guess if you find time to debug it, go wild :-)
[08:30] <Trevinho> mh, not really :-D
[08:31] <Trevinho> but i guess it's because it needs a new cache for whatever reason...
[08:33] <Laney> not sure what invalidates the cache
[08:33] <Laney> jhbuild has triggers for some stuff, maybe this too
[08:34] <Trevinho> hey willcooke
[08:35] <willcooke> morning
[08:35] <willcooke> how goes Trevinho?
[08:35]  * Trevinho sorounded by monitors.... feels well...
[08:35] <Trevinho> willcooke: can I bring home one of these XPS's? I'll send it back, promise! :-D
[08:35] <Laney> do you have a hidpi machine?
[08:35] <Trevinho> nope...
[08:35] <willcooke> Fine by me, but check with, erm, maybe YC?
[08:35] <Laney> yeah
[08:35] <Laney> hey willcooke
[08:35] <Laney> you there?
[08:35] <Trevinho> I've not, but for debugging I prefer a normal one....
[08:36] <Trevinho> while it's nice for testing real world...
[08:36] <willcooke> Laney, just arrived.  I'll email you a map which might be useful
[08:36] <Laney> O_O
[08:36] <Trevinho> YC?
[08:36] <willcooke> Trevinho, https://directory.canonical.com/orgchart/YC%20Cheng/
[08:37] <willcooke> Sat just outside Blackfriars for 10 mins
[08:37] <Trevinho> ah, ok I know him.
[08:57] <clobrano-> Trevinho, I guess Noto files are just huge (the smaller file is 16MB, while ubuntu-font-family files are ~KBs)
[08:58] <Trevinho> clobrano-: yeah, I noticed...
[08:58] <Trevinho> I uninstalled that for now, I'm just wondering if there's a way to avoid to recache it all the times *something* changes...
[08:58] <Trevinho> (not sure what=
[09:00] <willcooke> hey clobrano- - how are you?
[09:01] <clobrano-> hey willcooke, I'm fine, thanks! You?
[09:01] <willcooke> Not bad!
[09:03] <clobrano-> willcooke, great :)
[10:00] <duflu> Wow, bugfix finished at 6pm
[10:00] <duflu> That never happens
[10:00] <duflu> later
[10:23] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[10:24] <flexiondotorg> seb128 Morning. I saw photos. Where are you?
[10:24] <seb128> hey flexiondotorg, London office
[10:24] <flexiondotorg> :-)
[10:25] <flexiondotorg> You're there tomorrow as well?
[10:26] <seb128> yes
[10:28] <flexiondotorg> I'll see if I can re-organise things and come to the office tomorrow.
[10:30] <seb128> nice
[14:05] <jbicha> https://jeremy.bicha.net/2017/06/07/gnome-tweak-tool-3-25-2/
[14:06] <jbicha> I'd like to discuss whether we'd like to install GNOME Tweak Tool by default, should we discuss that at a weekly meeting or what?
[14:08] <seb128> jbicha, on the mailing list maybe and then conclusion round in the meeting?
[14:10] <jbicha> ok
[14:12] <seb128> it's a bit non-Ubuntu "pick right defaults, make things easy, don't propose too many option that confuse users" in spirit no?
[14:14] <jbicha> yes, maybe
[14:14] <didrocks> IMHO, we should rather have options which makes sense to us migrated to g-c-c (hopefully, talking with upstream first)
[14:15] <Laney> seb128: willcooke: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/hexchat
[14:15] <jbicha> didrocks: I agree…except that it's really difficult to add things there that they don't want
[14:16] <jbicha> for instance, I think they aren't interested in a theme selector or window button configurator
[14:16] <jbicha> one individual told me they didn't want a theme selector because they didn't want to be blamed for bugs in 3rd party themes(!)
[14:16] <seb128> didrocks, +1
[14:17]  * Laney nod
[14:20] <didrocks> jbicha: the g-c-c maintainer is living 2km from my home, I'm sure I can smooth the discussion :)
[14:20] <didrocks> but no promise :)
[14:20] <seb128> Laney, willcooke, http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1705.2/02534.html ?
[14:23] <jbicha> didrocks: it might be useful to find out which features he would be interested in adding to g-c-c before someone writes the patches
[14:23] <didrocks> jbicha: it would be even more useful to list what we think makes sense to expose to our users first :)
[14:24] <seb128> jbicha, I don't think we are interested in things like a window button configurator either, I don't think that's something anyone has been requesting/complaining about for years
[14:24] <jbicha> seb128: lots of people want to be able to flip the buttons to the other side
[14:24] <jbicha> we could do like Ubuntu GNOME and every GNOME distro and Windows and put them on the right
[14:25] <jbicha> or we could do like Unity and put them on the left
[14:25] <gQuigs> btw, did the survey come out yet?  cause that was one of the questions IIRC
[14:25] <jbicha> either way, there are a lot of people who will think we chose wrong and would like to be able to easily change it back
[14:26] <Laney> Even if things are in Tweak Tool, and it's not installed by default, it's easy enough for people to get it
[14:26] <seb128> jbicha, how much is "lots"? I don't think we had any of our partner/oems raising that as an issue for unity
[14:27] <jbicha> oems != users (or at least they are only one specific kind of user)
[14:27] <seb128> well we didn't get any IRC/list/launchpad/forum question about that for years
[14:27] <seb128> i don't think it bothers users much
[14:28] <didrocks> and as Laney said, I think people motivated to move those settings will find how to install tweak tool from the archive
[14:28] <didrocks> we should still think if there is anything that isn't exposed that we want to though
[14:29] <didrocks> (but I agree that windows control side doesn't seem a good fit to me there)
[14:29] <jbicha> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=778677#c11
[14:30] <jbicha> comment 11, the intent is to have GNOME Software point to Tweak Tool to configure GNOME Shell extensions
[14:32] <gQuigs> I was going to say full disabling of trackpad.. but that looks like it's already in the tentative design - https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/SystemSettings/Mouse#Tentative_Design..
[14:34] <seb128> jbicha, weird user experience to drop users to a power user tools tweak with a stack of settings, seems not really GNOMEish
[14:35] <seb128> we never installed ccsm by default either
[14:35] <jbicha> seb128: I know, right? it might even be part of core GNOME in the near future, which is different from what I had been hearing from GNOME for years about it
[14:35] <seb128> though quite some users liked to tweak their compiz
[14:35] <jbicha> I also think it would be ok to not show Desktop icons by default, but without a toggle switch to re-enable that old feature, it's a harder "sell"
[14:38] <seb128> another tricky topic
[14:39] <seb128> desktop icons is something lot of users are used to
[14:39] <Laney> why is an old feature?
[14:39] <Laney> it
[14:39] <jbicha> Laney: well it wasn't in Unity8 which was the future ;)
[14:39] <jbicha> the Nautilus maintainer doesn't like the feature
[14:42] <chrisccoulson> oSoMoN, have you tried running the latest chromium in a kvm guest? I get a blank initial tab nearly every time (the page loads but nothing is rendered in it)
[14:42] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, no, I’ve done all my testing in virtualbox VMs
[14:42] <seb128> jbicha, unity is because they were putting something else on the desktop
[14:42] <seb128> and that conflicted
[14:42] <seb128> which GNOME is not doing
[14:43] <jbicha> GNOME puts full-screen apps on the desktop
[14:44] <jbicha> remember GNOME doesn't have a minimize button so it's kind of difficult to see the desktop after you've been using the computer for a few minutes
[14:45] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, are you seeing that with all ubuntu releases as guests?
[14:46] <seb128> jbicha, GNOME let you configure what buttons you have, I expect us to keep the 3 we have on the left
[14:46] <jbicha> seb128: why on the left?
[14:46] <seb128> because it's what Ubuntu is doing for like 7 years?
[14:46] <chrisccoulson> oSoMoN, the ones I've tried, yes (xenial / zesty)
[14:46] <seb128> and what our users are used to
[14:47] <jbicha> that's only what Unity users are used to; most potential new users are not used to buttons on the left
[14:47] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, I’ll set up some KVM guests and will see if I can see that
[14:47] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[14:48] <didrocks> buttons on the left was pre-unity
[14:48] <mdeslaur> jbicha: sure they are, os x has buttons on the left too
[14:48] <didrocks> (10.04)
[14:48] <jbicha> mdeslaur: you don't mean to say that most potential new Ubuntu users use OS X? ;)
[14:49] <jbicha> some of those potential users are coming from other Linux distros too
[14:49] <mdeslaur> wait, do people still use windows? :)
[14:49] <seb128> jbicha, you seem to expect that switch desktop shell is going to bring us a ton of new users magically over night? ;-)
[14:49] <jbicha> kenvandine: which windows button side was preferred in the poll?
[14:49] <seb128> jbicha, I think Ubuntu userbase is not going to change overnight
[14:50] <jbicha> seb128: I expect we will gain some users that switched to other GNOME distros
[14:50] <jbicha> and lose some users to other Ubuntu flavors
[14:51] <jbicha> some have threatened to move to other GNOME distros but I'm not sure there's solid reasoning for that…
[14:52] <gQuigs> buttons the left and top left hot corner in GNOME don't work well in my testing
[14:52] <ogra> better drop the top left hot corner then ;)
[14:52] <mdeslaur> oh I hope we're disabling the hot corner
[14:52] <ogra> +1
[14:52] <mdeslaur> :)
[14:52] <gQuigs> again, isn't there a survey being done on this?
[14:52] <jbicha> why do y'all hat the hot corner?
[14:52] <ogra> its unintuitive and often in my way
[14:53] <seb128> because it's frustrating to use
[14:53] <chrisccoulson> I've got a simple answer to this - put the buttons on both sides
[14:53] <chrisccoulson> sorry
[14:53] <mdeslaur> heh
[14:53] <oSoMoN> :)
[14:53] <ogra> chrisccoulson, nah ... center them!
[14:53] <chrisccoulson> lol
[14:53] <jbicha> seb128: the maximize button doesn't really make sense except for tradition
[14:53] <ogra> "we went for the best compromise we could find"
[14:53] <gQuigs> I got it.. just get rid of all the buttons!   who needs them anyway!
[14:54] <seb128> jbicha, why? how do you put gedit maximized without it?
[14:54] <jbicha> seb128: did you read my blog post?
[14:54] <seb128> no, and most our users problably didn't either :p
[14:55] <seb128> well I had a look over it but I'm in a meeting
[14:55] <seb128> trying to not be too distracted
[14:55] <gQuigs> you just move gedit to the top of the screen and it maximes
[14:55] <seb128> if you know about that
[14:55] <ogra> how is m mom supposed to grok that ?
[14:55] <ogra> *my mom
[14:56] <chrisccoulson> I use the maximize button a lot. It's significantly more discoverable than either of the other 2 options
[14:56] <ogra> yeah
[14:56] <mdeslaur> wow, I never knew dragging a window to the top would maximize it
[14:56] <jbicha> mdeslaur: works the same way on Windows :)
[14:57] <jbicha> you can even right click on the title bar to maximize
[14:57] <mdeslaur> why bother when you have a cool maximize button? :)
[14:57] <seb128> I only trigger that maximize-on-top by error when I don't want to use it in fact
[14:57] <jbicha> so there are a lot of ways to do it
[14:57] <mdeslaur> and the maximize button works great with a touch screen :)
[14:57] <jbicha> mdeslaur: so do 2 of the 3 options we've mentioned
[14:57] <seb128> jbicha, windows has the button still no?
[14:58] <jbicha> (the 3rd option is double-clicking the titlebar)
[15:02] <jbicha> in my opinion, the dedicated maximize button is the slowest way to maximize a window so I end up never using it
[15:02] <seb128> I only use that
[15:03] <seb128> I can't get used to the dnd to top and right click on decoration is not something I use
[15:03] <seb128> anyway it doesn't use much space
[15:03] <seb128> and windows has it
[15:05] <seb128> well my opinion anyway, we should probably discuss that on the list as well
[15:05] <jbicha> with current Ambiance, it's a very small button to click Maximize
[15:05] <jbicha> I kinda want to see what the poll numbers say about preferred placement first…
[15:06] <jbicha> 7 years ago, left buttons weren't popular: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/ubuntu-window-buttons-staying-left-but-will-be-switching-order
[15:06] <mdeslaur> change wasn't very popular
[15:06] <mdeslaur> and you want to change it again
[15:07] <gQuigs> change interfaces is never popular
[15:08] <ogra> yeah ... so just dont do it ;)
[15:09] <gQuigs> lol.. if we followed that we also wouldn't be moving to GNOME...  err.. well we would have never switched so I guess we would still be on GNOME..
[15:10] <jbicha> gQuigs: and the window buttons would have stayed on the right! :)
[15:13] <pisi0> Did Ubuntu developers discuss GNOME 3.26? Which is coming with ubuntu 17.10, 3.24 or 3.26?
[15:13] <jbicha> here's some bugs with the redesigned gnome-control-center (targeted for 3.26): https://bicha.net/i/gnome-control-center-alt-ambiance-left.png
[15:13] <seb128> pisi0, not yet
[16:40] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, I’m seeing the blank page in a xenial guest indeed, looks like it’s doing that only on chrome://welcome, other chrome:// pages are fine
[16:42] <chrisccoulson> oSoMoN, it does it everywhere with me - eg, if I launch it with a URL on the commandline
[16:45] <oSoMoN> mmm, indeed
[16:45] <oSoMoN> same here
[16:46] <oSoMoN> but it’s only the first tab that’s affected, others are fine
[16:47] <oSoMoN> in fact the first page render in the first tab, because then if I browse to a different URL in that same tab the page renders fine
[16:49] <oSoMoN> this is annoying
[17:14] <oSoMoN> chrisccoulson, latest release of chrome is not affected
[17:53] <xnox> is there an example of a bug with gnome bugtracker linked to launchpad/
[17:53] <xnox> ?
[17:55] <sarnold> xnox: when I try to associate one I get an error message "Launchpad does not recognize the bug tracker at this URL"
[17:55] <jbicha> xnox: I'm not sure I understand your question, but maybe https://bugzilla.gnome.org/764029
[17:56] <xnox> ooh ooh i found one
[17:56] <xnox> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140751#c27
[17:56] <xnox> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/494067
[17:58] <sarnold> that's mozilla.org not gnome.org
[17:58] <sarnold> are you sure you found what you wanted? :)
[18:51] <Beret> is there a list of the proposed default extensions anywhere?
[18:51] <Beret> I've seen the omgubuntu article
[18:51] <Beret> but I'm not aware of a definitive list if there is one yet
[19:06] <kenvandine> Beret, the poll results will be published real soon
[19:07] <Beret> ok
[19:49] <sunweaver> hi everyone
[19:50] <sunweaver> can anyone tell me how the greeter frontend is launched when the user locks his/her session?
[19:52] <sunweaver> I know that there must be some comm on com.canonical.Unity via DBus.
[19:52] <sunweaver> However, I don't see clearly how the switch to the greeter (for locking the screen) happens.
[19:53] <sunweaver> does that lockscreen greeter process run as the logged-in user? Or under the lightdm account?
[19:54] <mdeslaur> sunweaver: the user's lock screen is drawn by unity itself inside the session, it doesn't use the greeter
[19:54] <sarnold> sunweaver: maybe this discussion is helpful? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1663157
[19:55] <sunweaver> mdeslaur: what code portion do I find the lock screen drawing in?
[19:55] <sunweaver> the point is...
[19:56] <mdeslaur> sunweaver: the unity source package:
[19:56] <mdeslaur> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity
[19:56] <sunweaver> I wonder how the indicator-session indicator could launch a lock screen in non-Unity without the greeter.
[19:56] <sunweaver> currently I get a "This screen is locked" lock screen. You should be redirected to the unlock page.
[19:57] <sunweaver> note, I have a variant of the unity-greeter running on Debian and use patched indicators in a MATE session
[19:57] <mdeslaur> what screensaver does MATE use?
[19:57] <sunweaver> mate-screensaver
[19:58] <sunweaver> but I thought it would be nice having a lockscreen that resemble the look'n'feel of the greeter.
[19:58] <sunweaver> I'll study the above URLs tomorrow.
[19:58] <sunweaver> Thanks you!!!
[21:06] <jbicha> robert_ancell: good morning, it looks like ken pushed your gnome-shell ubuntu5 change to bzr, do you want to rebase and push your ubuntu6 there?
[21:07] <jbicha> we should update the Vcs field
[21:07] <robert_ancell> jbicha, oh, I wasn't aware it was in bzr
[21:08] <jbicha> maybe it will be in git later this year… :)
[21:11] <robert_ancell> jbicha, both fixed
[21:11] <robert_ancell> Yeah, I think we're going to have to consider packaging branches at some point
[21:25] <jbicha> hmm, I've gotten very used to the hotcorner, it will take some time for me to get used to it disabled
[21:33] <ricotz> jbicha, robert_ancell, heya
[21:33] <ricotz> what is the state of https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vala/0.36.3-1~git1
[21:35] <robert_ancell> jdstrand, ^
[21:35] <robert_ancell> Stuck in NEW queue
[21:35] <robert_ancell> ricotz, hey
[21:35] <jbicha> ricotz: someone from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-archive/+members needs to let it through the new queue
[21:36] <jbicha> I asked in #ubuntu-release yesterday but no response
[21:36] <ricotz> heh, yeah, that is clear to me ;)
[21:36] <ricotz> was more aiming for the reason why
[21:36] <jbicha> I'd also like to start the evolution transition
[21:37] <ricotz> alright
[21:37] <jbicha> some people (who?) are at a sprint this week
[21:37] <robert_ancell> ricotz, yeah, It generally is just people getting busy. There's really no reason why Vala should be a complex change
[21:40] <robert_ancell> jbicha, where is the best place to find the list of official GNOME apps?
[21:40] <robert_ancell> I'm writing a mailing list post to propose GNOME Maps
[21:40] <ricotz> robert_ancell, yeah, that is fine, in this case the story is a bit longer even ;)
[23:37] <jbicha> robert_ancell: the jhbuild modulesets are the official list from GNOME's Release Team
[23:37] <jbicha> https://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets/gnome-suites-core-3.26.modules
[23:38] <jbicha> https://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets
[23:38] <robert_ancell> jbicha, thanks, I though that was the case
[23:38] <jbicha> see also this post from a year ago: https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2016/09/21/gnome-3-22-core-apps/
[23:39] <jbicha> some of the statements in that post are controversial but it's still useful in a way
[23:39] <jbicha> I was thinking about changing the ubuntu-desktop seed to more closely relate to the jhbuild modulesets
[23:40] <jbicha> I had done that to some degree with ubuntu-gnome's seed
[23:41] <robert_ancell> jbicha, I think that's the trend we should follow, but I guess we have to consider the workload of maintaining that many apps in an official capacity.
[23:42] <robert_ancell> I think since the core apps have very good design they're generally uncontrovercial to provide to users by default.
[23:44] <robert_ancell> What are the main ones we're missing? Photos (replace Shotwell?), Weather, Clocks, Boxes (I think this is not essential)
[23:44] <jbicha> several of the missing GNOME Core apps are because Ubuntu currently has a replacement (Shotwell, rhythmbox, gucharmap, gnome-system-log)
[23:44] <jbicha> Boxes is an odd app that I'd rather not ship unless someone does more maintenance of it on Ubuntu
[23:45] <robert_ancell> That's too much of a power-user app
[23:45] <robert_ancell> Let them install it manually
[23:45] <jbicha> yes
[23:45] <robert_ancell> As long as the replacements for gucharmap and gnome-system-log are better they should be easy to switch to
[23:45] <jbicha> Ubuntu GNOME did not include gnome-clocks because I thought bug 1583660 was bad for that kind of app
[23:46] <robert_ancell> That shouldn't be too hard to fix
[23:46] <jbicha> robert_ancell: that would be great! I think gnome-todo has a background service now that you could borrow from if needed
[23:46] <robert_ancell> That wasn't me volunteering :)
[23:47] <jbicha> suddenly, I can't hear you any more ;)
[23:47] <robert_ancell> But we should raise it as a Trello task on the backlog/proposed
[23:47] <jbicha> I'm going to propose Weather on the desktop list
[23:49] <jbicha> otherwise, clocks is pretty useful too