[00:54] <Burni> Does anyone know if there is a difference in the installed version of lubuntu when using standard or alternate download options?
[00:55] <wxl> the alternative installer and the desktop installer should give you the same end result
[00:56] <Burni> so the lower ram version / alternate is just for lower ram usage during install.
[00:56] <wxl> exactly
[00:57] <Burni> ok, thanks. gonna try setting up dual boot next to xp and mint
[00:58] <wxl> ew xp?! why? don't connect that to the internet
[00:59] <Burni> yah, i know... still have some really old crap that works fine on xp and the machine is that old...
[00:59] <wxl> you should just run xp in a vm
[00:59] <wxl> or use wine
[00:59] <Burni> machine 's probably not powerful enough for that.
[01:00] <wxl> it's worth a try
[01:00] <wxl> especially with wine
[01:00] <wxl> !wine
[01:00] <wxl> note it's NOT an emulator
[01:00] <wxl> (that's what wine stands for)
[01:01] <Burni> i'll proably try that when i get a more current machine.  the old p4 is rather taxed as it is.
[01:02] <wxl> it's probably because of all the malware running on it XD
[01:02] <Burni> hoped lubuntu would keep it going for a while.
[01:02] <wxl> it will for sure
[01:03] <Burni> k
[01:03] <Burni> thanks
[01:03] <wxl> no prob
[03:24] <EleanorEllis> Would LXDE be a lighter weight faster environment than XFCE? I am running Ubuntu Studio on an old laptop with only 8GB of RAM and it slows down a lot. I am wondering if I could improve things by changing to LXDE. I do some video and audio editing and processing plus recording and photograph editing, plus desktop publishing. Thanks. For example I have a problem when I my partner is watching video on one screen and I and looking up
[03:24] <tsimonq2> EleanorEllis: It would be a bit more lightweight
[03:25] <EleanorEllis> tsimonq2: Thanks
[05:52] <Dominic___> is there any way i can install Lubuntu X86 from Windows10 without using a DVD or USB
[05:53] <Dominic___> i am a noob so i dont know if this is the right place to ask this
[05:53] <tsimonq2> Dominic___: It would be difficult to, and I don't have the time to show you right now (I'm about to go to sleep) but yes, it is possible.
[05:53] <Dominic___> ok
[05:53] <tsimonq2> Dominic___: If you want to send an email to the lubuntu-users mailing list linked in the topic, they will be happy to help you there :)
[05:53] <Dominic___> thanks
[05:54] <tsimonq2> Thanks for choosing Lubuntu
[05:54] <tsimonq2> Have a nice night
[05:54] <Dominic___> you too good night
[08:49] <azizLIGHT> im trying to install lubuntu in a vm. vmware asks me to install vmware tools and then asks about kernel header paths. where are these kernel header paths so i can specify it correctly. here is what im asked: Searching for a valid kernel header path... The path "" appears to be a valid path to the 4.10.0-19-generic kernel headers. Would you like to change it? [no]
[08:55] <leszek> azizLIGHT: you need the kernel headers for this to be installed
[08:56] <azizLIGHT> i dont have kernel headers installed?
[08:57] <azizLIGHT> http://paste.ubuntu.com/24987686/
[08:57] <azizLIGHT> seems that i do
[08:57] <leszek> why are you asking me ?
[08:58] <leszek> ah so you have it installed
[08:58] <azizLIGHT> i shouldnt be asking you?
[08:58] <leszek> then vmware fails to autodetect it
[08:58] <azizLIGHT> maybe so. what is the dir location for hte kernel header path
[08:59] <leszek> the path should be in /usr/src/linux-headers-<YOURVERSION>
[09:06] <azizLIGHT> i see. thank you
[15:08] <Gent71> I can not get on the internet. Says can not find servers
[16:15] <Amalcor> Hey, i can't find anywhere what does the character code "[[20~" correspond to ? It randomly appears in the terminal, i don't know why ...
[16:25] <wxl> Amalcor: does this persist after a reboot?
[16:32] <Amalcor> yes. It's a laptop, and when i boot or open a terminal with the built-in keyboard connected, the lubuntu logo flicker during loading, like when you spam "esc", and many [[20~ appears in the background. When i only plug in another keyboard and disconnect the built-in one, nothing like that happens.
[16:36] <wxl> so what about if you open a virtual terminal (e.g. ctl-alt.f1)?
[16:40] <wxl> you know `infocmp | grep 20` shows a sequence for f9. that may be the problem.
[18:06] <Mattcttn> Hi, i'm well connected to wifi but firefox has no internet
[18:06] <Mattcttn> Any solution?
[18:07] <wxl> restart it. sometimes it gets grumpy if the network connection changes while it's running
[18:14] <Mattcttn> Done but not better
[18:14] <Mattcttn> It seems like a driver problem
[18:14] <wxl> then your wifi shouldn't work at all :)
[18:14] <wxl> how do you know it's working?
[18:15] <Mattcttn> Others pcs work, my phone works...
[18:16] <wxl> ah so you mean to say the wifi access point works, but you DON'T mean that your computer is connected to it
[18:17] <wxl> correct?
[18:17] <Mattcttn> Yes it's connected and usually works away but i'm not home every devices work here but not my pc
[18:18] <wxl> well i must say i'm still not clear on your problem, but let's assume it's the driver
[18:18] <wxl> i need to know some information
[18:18] <Mattcttn> Ask me
[18:18] <wxl> namely, the driver PCI ID and the kernel modules available/in use
[18:20] <wxl> to do this, ideally you would enter the following in a terminal:
[18:20] <wxl> lspci -nnk | grep -A 3 Network
[18:21] <wxl> i don't have a wifi card, so this returns just my ethernet card but you may get both
[18:21] <wxl> here's an example of what i get:
[18:21] <wxl> https://paste.ubuntu.com/24990760/
[18:21] <wxl> were we discussing my ehthernet card, i would want to know the 8086:10bd (that's the PCI id)
[18:21] <wxl> and i would also want to knoe that e1000e is the driver in use
[18:21] <wxl> you MAY see another line that says "Kernel modules available," in which case, i'd want to know all of those
[18:22] <Mattcttn> So i get the kernel rtl8723be
[18:22] <wxl> that's in use or available or both?
[18:22] <Mattcttn> Both
[18:23] <wxl> are there any other available modules?
[18:23] <Mattcttn> Yep the ethernet one which is r8169
[18:24] <wxl> yeah i'm not worried about that
[18:24] <wxl> what's the PCI ID of the wireless card?
[18:25] <Mattcttn> Im looking for, thx
[18:26] <wxl> should be in the first line
[18:26] <wxl> in square brackets
[18:29] <Mattcttn> 0280 ?
[18:29] <Mattcttn> Or 10ec:b723
[18:34] <wxl> it should be [xxxx:xxxx]
[18:34] <wxl> there's often two. i want the first one
[18:35] <Mattcttn> So it's 10ec:b723
[18:37] <wxl> ok and just to be sure, do you get any response if you `ping google.com` in the terminal?
[18:39] <Mattcttn> I've already tried and it doesn't work
[18:39] <wxl> does it ever show wifi connections?
[18:39] <wxl> like perhaps when you first turn it on?
[18:41] <Mattcttn> Yes but it was the connection i used to install lubuntu
[18:41] <wxl> i do see that other people have had issues with the connection dropping
[18:42] <wxl> there's a bunch of solutions here https://askubuntu.com/questions/635625/how-do-i-get-a-realtek-rtl8723be-wireless-card-to-work
[18:42] <wxl> this is common fix echo "options rtl8723be fwlps=N ips=N" | sudo tee /etc/modprobe.d/rtl8723be.conf
[18:44] <wxl> sadly there's not one CLEAR answer to the solution, but that's probably better supported than using a ppa, grabbing the git repo and building the module, etc. if it works.
[18:44] <Mattcttn> Ah you found the tip i was looking for! Thanks my friend
[18:46] <Mattcttn> I have to leave, I really thank you
[21:15] <Guest1__> I have allmost 1GB free disk space and still get an error message when i try to install the updates. It tells me there is not enough disk space even to install only the last updates who need only 7 MB. I allready used apt-get clean. What more can i do with this problem ?
[21:19] <wxl> Guest1__: let's see the full error message. pastebinit up, please.
[21:19] <Guest1__> I use 2 computers here.. will try..
[21:19] <Guest1__> brb
[21:24] <Guest1__> How can i copy the error log ?can not mark it.
[21:27] <wxl> you can do `command | pastebinit` if you have pastebinit installed
[21:27] <wxl> !pastebinit
[21:29] <Guest1__> I have a one way drive sign.
[21:30] <Guest1__> It say my disk is full.
[21:30] <Guest1__> And you want me to install even more ?
[21:30] <wxl> well you can certainly copy/paste
[21:31] <Guest1__> Full disk with 1GB free.I dont understand it.
[21:33] <Guest1__> It tell me i have one broken package.
[21:34] <wxl> i thought you said the disk was full, not that you have a broken package
[21:39] <Guest1__> I have both messages.
[21:39] <Guest1__> When i come here it is rare peoples understand the problem and it is complicated to get help.
[21:40] <Guest1__> I have the same before..
[21:40] <wxl> it's probably because you're not clearly stating the issue
[21:40] <Guest1__> Full disk..
[21:40] <wxl> what EXACTLY is reported when it says the disk is full?
[21:40] <Guest1__> 1GB free.
[21:40] <Guest1__> broken packge.
[21:41] <Guest1__> one way drive sign.
[21:41] <Guest1__> shud be understandable for peoples in here.
[21:41] <wxl> do this:
[21:42] <wxl> df | grep " /$" | awk '{print $5}'
[21:42] <wxl> what does it say?
[21:42] <Guest1__> I think i write that in terminal ?
[21:42] <wxl> yup
[21:43] <Guest1__> 91%
[21:43] <wxl> that means your disk is 91% used
[21:43] <wxl> are you saying you have a 1TB drive?
[21:43] <Guest1__> No..
[21:43] <wxl> well then you can see how much space you have available with:
[21:44] <Guest1__> I have 8GB drive and 1GB free.
[21:44] <wxl> sorry, not true
[21:44] <Guest1__> The porogram disks say 1GB free.
[21:44] <wxl> mathematically that doesn't work out
[21:44] <wxl> 9% of 8GB is not 1GB
[21:44] <Guest1__> I can read.
[21:45] <wxl> i assume you're using synaptic to install packages
[21:45] <wxl> it's not always really clear
[21:45] <wxl> you can try to do your update in terminal with apt
[21:45] <wxl> sudo apt update && sudo apt update
[21:46] <wxl> or sudo apt install <package>
[21:46] <wxl> that might give more clear messages
[21:46] <wxl> but i assure you, you are very low on disk space.
[21:46] <Guest1__> The program disks say this: 7,5 GB — 1,0 GB free (86,3% full)
[21:48] <wxl> the "installed size" reported by the package manager may be the final size and not the size required to actually perform the installation
[21:49] <Guest1__> sudo apt update && sudo apt update.  why two times and the && ?
[21:49] <wxl> the second one should be upgrade
[21:49] <wxl> the && is syntax that says if the previous command succeeds, run the next one
[21:50] <Guest1__> i will try.. I be back.
[21:57] <Guest1__> wx|: It is done.. but i am not sure what is fixed or not.
[22:12] <Guest1__> wx|: i am back.
[22:12] <Guest1__> I have run the command..
[22:13] <Guest1__> Still it install something but still errors here.
[22:14] <Guest1__> The package system is broken  Check if you are using third party repositories. If so disable them, since they are a common source of problems. Furthermore run the following command in a Terminal: apt-get install -f
[22:16] <Guest1__> I guess i can reinstall because it will free some space again.
[22:26] <Guest1__> nobody here.
[22:38] <nistonce> I've been following https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1205397 ("encrypted install fails because unsafe swap (zram) is detected" in Lubuntu for a whlie and it doesn't seem to be making any progress. What are Xubuntu, etc doing differently here installerwise?
[22:39] <wxl> i'm pretty sure they're not using zram
[22:40] <nistonce> Ah, thus ubiquity not addressing this more, I guess, if only more niche distributions are hitting it as a result of needing to combine zram and ubiquity.
[22:41] <wxl> yuup
[22:44] <nistonce> I'm sure this has been thought of, but is it even vaguely reasonable to run without that just for the installer (not the live environment), and/or disable swap somewhere in the installer or before it?
[22:45] <wxl> i know of folks that have done that
[22:45] <nistonce> as a default thing -- e.g., what https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1205397/comments/8 suggests
[22:46] <wxl> getting things implemented in ubiquity can at times be difficult
[22:46] <wxl> since we are not ubuntu proper, we've kind of got the short straw
[22:46] <wxl> they're often disinclined to accept sweeping changes
[22:46] <nistonce> Not surprised, alas
[22:47] <nistonce> What about before launching ubiquity, or is this just a misunderstanding of when/how ubiquity is run? There seems likely to be something the Lubuntu project's in control of between those points.
[22:48] <wxl> well, ubiquity should be the place, really. we'll keep pushing on getting it fixed
[22:48] <nistonce> And, to be clear, I'm happy to try to help make this happen, if that's a feasible thing and it hasn't just run up against a wall of conflicting constraints in other projects
[22:49] <wxl> i think the biggest problem we face is that we're a very small team and mostly busy with lxde things. when it comes to core infrastructure, generally ubuntu ends up taking care of it. this is one of those cases where that's not true
[22:49] <wxl> that said, if you want to take that on as a project, feel free!
[22:51] <nistonce> Sounds reasonable. Is it possible to even before ubuity from the boot medium, e.g., turn swap off? I get that the right fix is, as you say, for ubiquity to fix it, but since they evidently place a very low priority on this...
[22:51] <nistonce> Or for the broad distribution media, is it not considered acceptable to even run the installer sans swap?
[22:51] <wxl> well there's the problem. we don't want to turn it off for all
[22:52] <wxl> especially considering the limiting factor on most lubuntu users will be memory, so swap is pretty crucial
[22:52] <nistonce> Okay, good to know at least.
[22:52] <wxl> we're a special case is what the problem is
[22:52] <wxl> it's our claim to fame and our greatest curse :)
[22:52] <nistonce> Yeah, makes sense. My use case is mostly that I want a 'bare' Ubuntu-ish installer that functions adequately as a live environment to recover, etc with.
[22:53] <nistonce> And Lubuntu, precisely because of what it is, is the best for that except for this one thing
[22:53] <wxl> you want the installer or you want an installation that's bare?
[22:53] <nistonce> So instead I keep Xubuntu boot media around.
[22:54] <nistonce> Both, the ability to either repair or reinstall
[22:54] <wxl> ah
[22:54] <nistonce> But I just remove any default windowing environment, etc and install my own
[22:54] <wxl> you could build your own system up, one that doesn't have zram at all
[22:54] <wxl> base it on ubuntu-core or whatever it is and add what you wnat
[22:55] <nistonce> Yeah, that might end up working best. It can be nice to have some kind of GUI to browse the web with in a live environment to look things up, which is why I've not just done the super-minimal server/more core things, but maybe that's the right approach.
[22:56] <nistonce> Lubuntu's just so close to being exactly what I'm looking for, thus my questions here.
[22:59] <wxl> the problem with doing that is that you have to figure out all the things you want to install
[22:59] <wxl> but that's also a benefit because then you can trim the size way down
[22:59] <wxl> on the other hand there are others who have essentially created their own thing out of lubuntu. you might want to ask Kamilion about what he does
[23:00] <nistonce> Yeah, I basically do tha already. I tend to closely track what packages I have installed, I've gone through and made sure that exactly the ones I want are manually selected vs automatically installed (and thus removed with auto-remove), etc.
[23:00] <wxl> yeah i think starting from scratch would be a good way to go
[23:00] <nistonce> And that's another reason I like to start closer to minimal -- the installation procedures seem to mangle the auto/manual information
[23:00] <nistonce> so I have to retroactively reconstruct it with aptitude etc
[23:01] <wxl> huh interesting
[23:01] <nistonce> Yeah lots of 'manual' packages which I don't really believe were manual in any meaningful way
[23:01] <wxl> tbh i haven't played with it too much personally except on vms that i just wiped out, so i don't really have a lot of experience
[23:02] <nistonce> Which combined with dependency loops (foo-utils depends somehow on foo depends on foo-base depends on foo-utils, some of which are weak deps such as suggests or recommends) means that teasing out what should have auto(-removeable) automatically becomes a bit tedious
[23:03] <wxl> right
[23:03] <wxl> i could certainly imagine the many implications of that one little problem
[23:27] <nistonce> Do you know why https://github.com/Distroshare/distroshare-ubuntu-imager/commit/b01e6540b249c7178f5b57d624d2869d49ecd541 and https://github.com/Distroshare/distroshare-ubuntu-imager/commit/467590c5542ba6a32c3a9c55e1e6c109132a2633 didn't seem to go anywhere in upstream ubiquity? They suggest the patch is pretty local and low-risk.
[23:27] <nistonce> (Also, that people have been actively trying to fix it for at least 2 years now.)
[23:29] <nistonce> (They do just swapoff --all, which maybe ubiquity didn't like, rather than actually fixing ubiquity, which may be the issue, and which you said Lubuntu didn't want to do in general.)
[23:29] <wxl> not sure they tried
[23:31] <Kamilion> yo?
[23:32] <Kamilion> I have zram removed for the liveISOs I generate, yes.
[23:32] <nistonce> Oh, hi Kamilion -- wxl suggested I ask you about that
[23:32] <Kamilion> lubuntu's aimed at lower spec machines, where compressed swap makes more sense.
[23:34] <wxl> that's not necesarily nistonce 's use case, so that might be a good idea
[23:35] <nistonce> Yeah, no zram works fine for me
[23:35] <Kamilion> Also, since I'm building appliance-style images that get replaced after a reboot, ubuiquity isn't generally on my radar. The few times I've tried it, it's sorta worked, but I've done enough in the initramfs so attempting to boot an installed version is probably going to be pretty broken
[23:35] <nistonce> Looking at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/ubiquity/trunk/changes/6536?start_revid=6536 and it's not the most active project
[23:35] <nistonce> (aside from being on a dead DVCS...)
[23:36] <Kamilion> canonical loves going off the beaten path for some reason
[23:36] <Kamilion> never understood that myself.
[23:36] <wxl> me either
[23:36] <nistonce> They dropped Mir and their own DE at least/at last
[23:37] <Kamilion> and upstart.
[23:37] <Kamilion> and just about every other project they've started, gotten bad press about, banged on, and given up on after ~7 years
[23:37] <nistonce> It's too bad in a way. The Ubuntu phone/tablet was a neat idea
[23:37] <wxl> i think they saw red hat innovating and said "we can do that!"
[23:37] <Kamilion> and then demonstrates exactly the behavior we all worry about
[23:38] <Kamilion> "well, mir's toast, chuck it in the bin, we're done here"
[23:38] <wxl> except that their idea of innovating was reinventing the wheel
[23:38] <nistonce> But a lot of things were just pointless copies of other projects, yeah
 Wait, wait, we still think it's useful as a wayland shim!
[23:38] <Kamilion> "Nope, too bad"
[23:38] <Kamilion> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[23:39] <nistonce> And, worse, for some of them they got 3rd parties (Nvidia) to commit to putting resources to their own display solutions and giving Nvidia yet another excuse to ignore wayland
[23:39]  * Kamilion shrugs
[23:39] <nistonce> So looking at ubiquity, I still don't understand why it cares about the installation environment's swap at all?
[23:40] <nistonce> I don't care if that's encrypted
[23:40] <Kamilion> Hm, I've never been able to rely on ubuntu's installer to get encryption right
[23:40] <wxl> some people would not agree with you, nistonce
[23:40] <Kamilion> errybody's got different ideas on "how secure it's gotta be"
[23:40] <wxl> yuup
[23:40] <nistonce> Xubuntu's works okay for me. I don't agree with all its defaults, but it's reasonable in my experience, the full disk encryption at least
[23:41] <Kamilion> my view is "break in all you want, after a reboot, you'll be flushed anyway like everything else"
[23:41] <nistonce> So it just has to make sure to keep key material, etc off swap
[23:41] <Kamilion> pretty much what you see out of container lifetimes these days... Average of about 2-3 days then destroyed
[23:42]  * Kamilion nods
[23:42] <nistonce> And some cloud providers pushing for even more ephemeral, yeah
[23:42] <Kamilion> yeah, I make one of those.
[23:42] <Kamilion> https://github.com/kamilion/kamikazi-core
[23:42] <Kamilion> everything lives in tmpfs, thanks to casper's TORAM=Yes
[23:43] <nistonce> Neat
[23:43] <Kamilion> finds named btrfs volumes and mounts them on it's own under /mnt/btrfs/<volumename>
[23:43] <nistonce> Collapses a lot of the management GUI into something open source, etc
[23:43] <nistonce> And that's still not widely available as your readme notes
[23:44] <Kamilion> I just use lubunto for the management UI, along with X2Go
[23:44] <Kamilion> although I do support grabbing the ajenti-core packages once the system comes online, I can't distribute them due to their dumb licensing
[23:45] <Kamilion> there's not many other reasonably secure panels out there
[23:46] <Kamilion> ajenti's python; so it is automatically out of the PHP-crapware trend
[23:46] <nistonce> Oh, they do one of those almost-free but if-you're-not-evil-it's-FOSS licenses
[23:46] <nistonce> Which yeah are dumb
[23:46] <Kamilion> "Embedding Ajenti Core in a commercial product requires a license."
[23:46] <Kamilion> Bullshit, it's FOSS or it's not.
[23:46] <Kamilion> Requires, my left foot.
[23:47] <nistonce> They do seem to be trying to get the good PR of FOSS disingenuously
[23:47] <Kamilion> and even though I don't charge anything for kamikazi, I'm not going to close the door on that, as I do tend to make some $$$ from supporting it for various installations
[23:48] <Kamilion> I net at least ~$200/mo off support retainers for a couple gameserver providers
[23:48] <wxl> you should add it to the list of type-1 hypervisors on wikipedia :)
[23:48] <Kamilion> who were sick of paying for solusvm
[23:49] <Kamilion> they use kamikazi's "Roles" system to specialize the image on boot.
[23:49] <Kamilion> Sadly, again, I'm stuck with control panels I'm not allowed to redistribute >.<
[23:50] <Kamilion> right now I'm sort of at a loss with what I'm going to do next
[23:50] <nistonce> It's counterintuitive to me at least that kubernetes and similar software; distributed configuration management; etc actually see substantial open source support, but what seems like a conceptually more straightforward problem, managing a bunch of more-or-less opaque-to-hypervisor VMs, seems to have less mature/available FOSS solutions
[23:51] <Kamilion> I still want to stick with 16.04, but with xen 4.9, I don't really know how deep the rabbit hole of shoving newer xen sets into my PPA for 16.04 is going to go
[23:51] <Kamilion> and most of them were for xen3 and never got forward ported to libxl
[23:51] <Kamilion> yeah, I had the same problem. The ones left are all mostly PHP crapware
[23:52] <Kamilion> or some plugins FOR some PHP crapware (like WHM Complete Solution)
[23:54] <nistonce> Why 16.04 specifically? LTS I get, but is there anything wrong with how 17.10 (and thus likely 18.04 LTS) are shaping up for your purposes?
[23:56] <nistonce> Is there a reason http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/mlock.2.html isn't the solution to https://launchpadlibrarian.net/145919591/unsafeswap.png ?
[23:57] <Kamilion> Eh, they've had a lot of issues I've sidestepped by staying on 16.04 LTS
[23:58] <nistonce> I ask partly because from everything I've seen of the reasons behind this so far, it's not some deep technical insight required for the fix, but different people and projects with conflicting priorities
[23:58] <nistonce> Xen or Lubuntu?
[23:58] <Kamilion> like https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/29/systemd_pwned_by_dns_query/
[23:58] <Kamilion> *buntu, in that case.
[23:59] <Kamilion> systemd-resolved isn't used in 16.04