[13:37] <cmaloney> Good morning
[13:47] <notlikethesoup> hi
[14:06] <jrwren> Good Morning, how is everyone today?
[14:06] <notlikethesoup> not too bad, working through an android dev course
[14:07] <notlikethesoup> as has been my life for a week or so
[14:07] <jrwren> kotlin or jabab?
[14:07] <notlikethesoup> uh
[14:08] <notlikethesoup> neither, like an introductory course
[14:08] <notlikethesoup> i know kotlin is some newer thing. or at least i thought
[14:11] <jrwren> I meant java by "jabba".
[14:15] <notlikethesoup> oh, ha
[14:15] <notlikethesoup> java, yeah
[14:16] <notlikethesoup> i was wondering what on earth "jabab" was
[14:16] <notlikethesoup> lol
[14:18] <notlikethesoup> but yeah juts really basic stuff
[14:18] <notlikethesoup> it's a lot to learn at once
[14:23] <jrwren> i can imagine if you don't have much programming experience it can be overwhelming
[14:26] <notlikethesoup> well, i've doing programming of some degree for a couple of years, i just still think of myself as... very new and inexperienced
[14:26] <notlikethesoup> i guess since fall 2014ish
[14:26] <notlikethesoup> is when i started going to school full time
[14:27] <jrwren> not 30yrs like cmaloney and me. :p
[14:28] <notlikethesoup> ha, definitely not
[14:42] <cmaloney> 30?
[14:42] <cmaloney> Gah, more like 35ish
[14:42] <cmaloney> if you count all those BASIC programs
[14:43] <cmaloney> I'm going to go feel old now. Anyone want to join me?
[14:43] <notlikethesoup> oh god
[14:43] <notlikethesoup> in a programming logic class we used basic
[14:43] <notlikethesoup> or maybe it was justbasic
[14:43] <jrwren> cmaloney: same here... well.. 34ish :)
[14:43] <notlikethesoup> that word sticks out
[14:44] <cmaloney> possibly
[14:44] <cmaloney> BASIC was a good point to teach boolean logic and basic algebra concepts
[14:44] <cmaloney> not great for teaching larger programming concepts like functions and local variable scope
[14:46] <cmaloney> Oh, and it was great for teaching that if you wanted any kind of performance you really needed to get to machine code sooner than later. ;)
[14:53] <jrwren> especially on those old 80s machines
[14:53] <jrwren> but then, these days, javascript updating an html dom teaches the same performance lessons :p
[15:00] <rick_h> writes are expensive :)
[15:00] <rick_h> a very different form
[15:01] <jrwren> :)
[15:04] <cmaloney> I fear for folks who learn JavaScript as their first programming language
[15:04] <cmaloney> and I know hundreds of people are in that boat
[15:04] <cmaloney> On the one hand: functional programming
[15:05] <cmaloney> on the other hand: '1' + NaN == '1NaN'
[15:05] <notlikethesoup> it was java for me
[15:05] <notlikethesoup> then that justbasic class, then back to java
[15:05] <Zimdale> lol
[15:05] <notlikethesoup> then c#
[15:05] <Zimdale> #stillbetterthanphp
[15:05] <cmaloney> Java is OK. I don't think anyone has ever finished typing in a Java program
[15:06] <notlikethesoup> i feel like java and c# are like the "standard" languages
[15:06] <notlikethesoup> no curveballs or weird things that i can think of at a beginner level
[15:06] <cmaloney> public static void class FinishedProgramGetter() {
[15:06] <notlikethesoup> just a normal programming language
[15:06] <notlikethesoup> then i discovered the beautify of python and the horrors of c
[15:06] <cmaloney> C is a standard language for me
[15:07] <cmaloney> it's the standard by which other languages should be judged
[15:07] <notlikethesoup> i just can't do the low-level stuff
[15:07] <notlikethesoup> yes it's stupidly fast
[15:07] <cmaloney> If you can be as clear and concise as C then you get a pass
[15:07] <notlikethesoup> but having to worry about allocating memory and freeing it and dealing with arrays of characters as opposed to strings
[15:07] <cmaloney> if you can be as terse as C then you may pass
[15:07] <notlikethesoup> 3 classes of it was enough
[15:07] <notlikethesoup> i learned a lot from it for sure
[15:07] <cmaloney> Yeah, but you learned some valuable skills of how the computer works
[15:07] <notlikethesoup> exactly
[15:08] <cmaloney> because computer don't care. ;)
[15:08] <cmaloney> it's a list? It's an atom? It's a vector? Computer don't care.
[15:08] <cmaloney> It's all locations in memory
[15:09] <notlikethesoup> right
[15:09] <cmaloney> just as long as it doesn't touch protected memory or some arbitrary location that the OS deemed out-of-bounds...
[15:09] <notlikethesoup> it just wants to know how you want to interpret it
[15:09] <cmaloney> ayep
[15:23] <jrwren> java and C# are certainly the standard languages at a corporate level.
[15:24] <jrwren> yeah, C rules like that.
[16:07] <notlikethesoup> python is my one true love though
[16:07] <notlikethesoup> python is what made me *enjoy* programming
[16:11] <jrwren> python still does for me.  And go too.
[16:11] <jrwren> now that I'm not at Canonical :p
[16:12] <notlikethesoup> you were at canonical?
[16:12] <notlikethesoup> neat
[16:13] <notlikethesoup> i always kinda wondered how canonical works as a business since they make free, open source software
[16:13] <notlikethesoup> like how they're funded
[16:14] <jrwren> well, go to canonical.com and see the list of customers.
[16:14] <cmaloney> Python is really where I understood and loved OO programming
[16:14] <jrwren> they do some ubuntu support, but I think most of hte income comes from cloud, whether it is ubuntu instances running on public cloud or a company paying canonical to build and run a private internal cloud.
[16:14] <notlikethesoup> huh, neat
[16:14] <jrwren> lots of canonical and ex-canonical employees in this channel.
[16:15] <jrwren> huh, when did jcastro leave?
[16:15] <jrwren> used to be more of us. :(
[16:18] <notlikethesoup> ooh, gross
[16:18] <notlikethesoup> http://imgur.com/a/F8o2t
[16:18] <notlikethesoup> that is rather hard to read, canonical
[16:19] <notlikethesoup> it formats great up to a certain browser width
[16:50] <cmaloney> jrwren: I think when he went to Heptio he darted off
[16:50] <cmaloney> something something too good for us
[16:50] <cmaloney> or likely wanted to disassociate with Ubuntu
[16:51] <cmaloney> Not that I blame him one iota
[16:52] <jrwren> well, if he really isn't using ubuntu anymore, I guess it makes sense, but if he is, i find it sad that he'd leave the local community.
[16:55] <cmaloney> I'm pretty sure it's part burnout, part disassociation
[16:56] <cmaloney> Sometimes the best you can do is wish someone well
[16:56] <cmaloney> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/
[16:56] <cmaloney> http://loco.ubuntu.com/meetings/
[16:57] <cmaloney> http://loco.ubuntu.com/loco-council/verified/
[17:00] <cmaloney> There's four verified loco teams in the USA
[17:00] <cmaloney> It looks like even Ohio gave up
[17:02] <cmaloney> Christ, it looks like the discourse forums went moribund
[17:02] <cmaloney> and yet ubuntuforums.org still lives
 Sometimes the best you can do is wish someone well
[17:03] <notlikethesoup> good advice
[17:03] <notlikethesoup> sad, but true
[17:04] <cmaloney> Sadly I've been getting a lot of practice in this
[17:04] <cmaloney> O'Reilly books for one.
[17:04] <jrwren> and I do wish him well.
[17:04] <cmaloney> Same.
[17:05] <cmaloney> Unrelated: I think this is the worst time for Canonical to do an IPO
[17:05] <cmaloney> but I wish them well
[17:05] <cmaloney> And considering how well I've been with predicting the future maybe they know something I don't.
[17:06] <cmaloney> I mean, I bought a 3DO and waited patiently for the M2 to manifest itself
[17:07] <cmaloney> if I'm betting on a horse your odds improve greatly by not betting on same horse. ;)
[17:11] <jrwren> they won't be doing it now.
[17:11] <jrwren> it will be at least a year.
[17:11] <jrwren> they have to get profitable. layoffs and cutting phone was the first step to that.
[17:12] <cmaloney> I mean their community mindhsare is in the toilet
[17:12] <cmaloney> best time to do this would have been 2011
[17:13] <jrwren> investors don't care about community mindshare, they care about revenue and growth.
[17:13] <jrwren> canonical hasn't been a community company in a VERY long time AFAICT
[17:13] <cmaloney> So noted.
[17:15] <greg-g> jrwren: agreed with your last statement (I haven't read scrollback, don't know context)
[17:16] <jrwren> I really hope the Ubuntu technical board and Community Council can drive more of ubuntu, but ubuntu isn't structured that way.
[17:16] <jrwren> in fact, I don't believe that ubuntu is operated the way they claim. I don't believe the Technical Board actually functions in decision making.
[17:17] <greg-g> they didn't when I was on the Membership Review Board
[17:17] <greg-g> (same time Mako was on the Community Council)
[17:17] <jrwren> everyone on the board is employed by canonical which means they are all yes men (and yes, they are all men) to sabdfl.
[17:18] <cmaloney> That's handy
[17:18] <jrwren> if it were an honest functioning tech board, you'd never have had initiatives like MIR by default.
[17:18] <jrwren> hell, I dont think you'd have had unity at all.
[17:18] <greg-g> jrwren++
[17:18] <cmaloney> you might have had Unity
[17:18] <cmaloney> Unity was a compelling story
[17:18] <cmaloney> but yeah, MIR was a mistake
[17:18]  * greg-g thinks about parallels with WMF
[17:19] <greg-g> our Tech Committee is all WMF employees (minus one Wikimedia Germany employee) but our CTO: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Technical_Committee
[17:19] <cmaloney> I don't think you could have had an elevator conversation with anyone about MIR and come out of there sold.
[17:19] <greg-g> s/but/and/
[17:24] <cmaloney> Thing is I don't blame companies for stacking their community and governance; it helps keep the vision of the founders alive
[17:24] <jrwren> The really disappointing thing to me is the things that ubuntu really excels at, that one loses if they use debian instead. Things like cloud optimized kernels. Things like cloud-init.
[17:24] <jrwren> I was surprised to find debian doesn't use cloud-init by default.
[17:24] <cmaloney> but if the foundation / community is pretty much beholden to the BDFL then it's not a community
[17:24] <jrwren> its not a huge deal, and was pretty easy to use just a script, but it is still kind of a shame IMO
[17:24] <cmaloney> jrwren: Ubuntu reminds me a lot of Apple
[17:25] <cmaloney> there's a lot of good taste in there
[17:25] <cmaloney> sane defaults
[17:25] <cmaloney> the problem is SABDFL took a few too many pages from Steve Jobs
[17:25] <cmaloney> which is great if you're running Apple, but not great if you're running a transparent org
[17:30] <jrwren> I don't know if I agree with that.
[17:30] <jrwren> I don't know if I disagree either. :)
[17:36] <cmaloney> He's always stuck me as someone who wants to be Steve Jobs
[17:38] <jrwren> ah, not me. He is his own man. I feel like once you get passed 50 or 100million in net worth, not much matters and he is far passed that, so if he wanted to be Jobs he'd be attacking consumer market, because that is to whom Apple has always sold, primarily, but he has never targetted that market.
[17:39] <greg-g> the steve jobs of the business market, I guess ;)
[17:40] <jrwren> sooo.... Bill Gates?
[17:40] <greg-g> heh
[17:40] <greg-g> touche
[17:41] <cmaloney> Well, he's not quite Ellison asshole levels
[17:41] <cmaloney> (at least I don't think so)
[17:42] <cmaloney> Maybe someone could correct me on that. ;)
[17:43] <greg-g> Honestly, I don't know many people who can build businesses of that size and not be assholes
[17:43] <greg-g> I think it's part of being an egotistical CEO (but I repeat myself)
[17:43] <cmaloney> Chiefly Egotistical Operation
[17:47] <cmaloney> God I love intermittent sound issues.
[17:48] <greg-g> alsa/pulse stuff?
[17:48] <cmaloney> worse: pulse + squeezelite
[17:48] <cmaloney> can't pinpoint when it happens
[17:48] <cmaloney> but every now and again it'll just go for a toss
[17:49] <cmaloney> Trying to explain what's going on is also fun
[17:51] <greg-g> sound on linux == dark magic to me
[17:52] <greg-g> pretty much sound on anything other than a record player is dark magic to me
[17:52] <cmaloney> even better: it seems like some interaction between it and Chrome
[17:52] <greg-g> and even that barely passes the "is this magic?" test
[17:53] <cmaloney> so trying to figure out what's happening outside of chicken entrails and a core developer is pretty much impossible
[17:53] <cmaloney> Oh record grooves are magic to me
[17:53] <cmaloney> I know conceptually what's going on and I still find it magical
[17:54] <cmaloney> stereo from a record groove? Magic.
[17:55] <cmaloney> http://www.vinylrecorder.com/stereo.html
[17:56] <cmaloney> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu0zP5s_PSo
[17:57] <jrwren> you think a stereo record grove is magical, try and imagine quadrophonic.
[17:58] <jrwren> I still find quadrophonic records to be unbelievable.
[17:58] <jrwren> Hell, stereo is unbelievable to me.
[17:58] <cmaloney> iirc quadrophonic is just signals at 20K+ phase-shifted
[17:59] <jrwren> don't ruin the magic for me!
[18:00] <cmaloney> Stereo Ortohophonic Victrolas
[18:01] <cmaloney> Orthophonic Hi-Fidelity
[18:13] <greg-g> :)
[18:15] <cmaloney> Funnily enough, if you Google "Orthophonic" you get someone saying "That's bullshit!" ;)
[18:15] <cmaloney> (Actually it's a marketing term for their cutting process)