[05:22] morning boys and girls. [08:08] diddledan: 9098 emails from fail2ban in 24hours who knew my little home server was so popular in China :D [08:08] Morning all [11:39] anyone know a good source of 8 bit arcade/geek style gifs and pngs? [11:40] rather than HD stylised versions which google seems full of [11:42] just doing google image search for 16x16 pics atm [11:51] there's a website dedicated to ripping graphics from old 8 and 16 bit games, and then making gifs out of them [11:51] @search feynman [11:51] i can't remember what it is called but let me see if i can find it [11:55] foobarry: http://spritedatabase.net/ [12:42] cool thanks ali1234 [13:00] trying out the new solus release [13:03] the max brightness doesn't seem as bright as other OS :| [15:32] that ubuntu gnome shell stuff is looking really really good [17:09] hi is there anyone who can help on log files [17:09] 18:03 18:01 my question is this if I have a webcam or imaging device connected to a computer which can control the device can I see all log information that takes place in relation to time stamped/communications and access and storing images using a log file? [17:09] 18:03 18:02 i.e. all process and transactions that take place between the computer and the device? [17:09] 18:03 Please register an account « /msg nickserv help register » then try joining #ubuntu again with « /join #ubuntu » [17:10] hi is there anyone who can help on log files [17:10] 18:03 18:01 my question is this if I have a webcam or imaging device connected to a computer which can control the device can I see all log information that takes place in relation to time stamped/communications and access and storing images using a log file? [17:10] 18:03 18:02 i.e. all process and transactions that take place between the computer and the device? [17:10] 18:03 Please register an account « /msg nickserv help register » then try joining #ubuntu again with « /join #ubuntu » [17:14] time to reg and ask in #ubuntu which is the main support channel [17:14] your request doesn't sound particularly kosher... [17:18] klystron: you want an audit log for webcam usage? [17:19] must.. resist.. suggesting.. concerns.. over.. sexting [17:19] or do you want to sniff the raw protocol information? [17:20] the latter can be done with https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/usb/usbmon.txt [17:20] hi is there anyone who can help on log files [17:20] 18:03 18:01 my question is this if I have a webcam or imaging device connected to a computer which can control the device can I see all log information that takes place in relation to time stamped/communications and access and storing images using a log file? [17:20] 18:03 18:02 i.e. all process and transactions that take place between the computer and the device [17:20] if you need stuff like audit logs then ubuntu might not be for you. maybe RHEL can do that [17:21] this is a general question about logs [17:21] (18:18:49) ali1234: klystron: you want an audit log for webcam usage? [17:21] (18:19:28) ali1234: or do you want to sniff the raw protocol information? [17:22] yes or any imaging device that is connect [17:22] which? [17:23] what i am trying to establish if you connect and control a device to any linux or window based system there will be a log file time stamped and audit showning all that takes place between the device and computer - yes or no? [17:24] not by default no [17:24] why [17:24] because it would fill up your hard drive quite quickly [17:24] in the case of a webcam at least [17:24] some things are logged, such as connecting devices [17:24] i was not awar i was in here three times [17:27] yes, you seem to be new to IRC? [17:27] if we are talking about a CT image scanner surely there would be an audit trail as to who logged on when the system was idle and in use [17:27] yes, almost certainly [17:27] but you specified "any" system [17:27] most are not connected to CT scanners [17:27] a toshiba [17:27] phew i thought i was in a hospital then, thank Tux for that [17:28] as i said, if you need that kind security and auditability, then RHEL is your best bet [17:28] really? mine is connected to one... [17:28] diddledan: clearly it's all about ATMs for home connection right now [17:28] possibley connected to a mac [17:28] not all operating system work the same. not even all version of linux [17:28] brian_: you're not making a lot of sense. [17:29] it makes sense to me [17:29] daftykins: you mean an asymmetric teletype modem? [17:29] :-p [17:29] i dont think you understand what i am talking about [17:29] diddledan: nah not today [17:29] i'm on about being on IRC multiple times, hah [17:30] if you went into hospital and had a xray or ct scan the scanners would have an audit trial as to its use and by whom [17:30] yes [17:30] that is correct, at least one would hope [17:31] that audit trail would be the log files [17:31] the audit trail would be in the CT scanner software [17:31] on the controlling computer system or O/S [17:31] the operating system itself does not provide it, unless you program it to do so [17:31] hint, not many people in here are likely familiar with CT scanners [17:31] you odn't need to be familiar with CT scanners to answer this question [17:32] if you're not familiar with CT scanners then you can only answer hypotheticals was what I was suggesting [17:33] yeah, leaves a bit of room for accuracy [17:33] or inaccuracy, rather [17:33] so that log file be it OEM of the CT scanner computer system or any computer controlling the scanner would have log files as a means of an audit trail [17:33] NYANDOWS! https://twitter.com/ctrl_alt_steph/status/901135244400574464 [17:34] I still love the orange version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XrRwruU8DE [17:35] brian_: maybe, but who knows? [17:36] i would think so for as the files are medical records and a audit trail to se who loged on and when the machine was in use [17:36] yes, regulations probably require it [17:36] in case there was any dispute [17:38] ok assuming that was the case of the log files providing an audit trail - then next question is can any log files be manually edited? [17:38] depends on your definition of "any" [17:38] it is possible to design a logging system which cannot be edited without leaving evidence that it has been edited [17:38] ^ that [17:38] but that does not mean that no log file can be edited [17:39] so if we take the case of a network and the logs would someone be able to change or edit log files [17:39] is this homework we're doing for you perchance? [17:39] just a network [17:40] -_- [17:40] no, merely using network logging is not enough to prevent logs from being modified [17:40] honestly just get to the point [17:41] so if a logging system was designed so as not be edited what evidence would it leave if it had been edited? [17:42] or hacked? [17:43] would it use a blockchain? [17:43] that is one possibility [17:44] what are the other possibilities? [17:44] it depends what type of attacker you want to defend against [17:45] ALL the attackers [17:45] that is impossible [17:45] :-p [17:45] are they any PEN test that can determine if a lof file has been edited? [17:45] log... [17:45] it depends on the log file [17:46] name some? [17:46] no [17:46] this really sounds more and more like homework [17:46] also, that's not what a pen test is [17:46] if you have a secure logging system then it will have the capability to detect changes right in the software [17:47] frensic software tools [17:47] how would or could you determine if a file has been edited which is part of an audit trail? [17:48] https://twitter.com/GeekandSundry/status/901139019794333696 [17:48] RUUUUNNNN [17:49] you store a hash of the file somewhere immutable like in a public blockchain, or just on write-only media [17:49] then you compare the document to the hash later [17:49] if the hash does not match, it has been modified [17:49] yeah but that requires you to have both # [17:49] yes [17:50] cryptography isnt magic [17:50] but a blockchain will show if its been edited further up the transaction - like bitcoins [17:51] that statement does not make any sense [17:51] a blockchain can only be validated from end-to-end - you can't take a single transaction and say "that's modified" without checking the rest of the chain [17:52] blockchain modifications just cause a fork [17:52] ok blockchains transaction have # from a previous transaction if a transcation is edited or changed the # will be different and will ripple up to all other transaction [17:53] you mean blocks [17:53] and yes, that is special form of a merkle tree [17:53] * diddledan swoons at the mention of her almighty [17:53] # from one file or transaction will be combine with another # [17:53] yes [17:54] the way you implement that in a log file is you put the hash of the previous line into the current line, and then hash the current line [17:54] so if a file transcation is edited that will generate another different # [17:55] this is not a new idea by any means. it pre-dates blockchains by a very long time [17:55] git also does this [17:55] every commit contains the hash of the parent [17:55] so you can't modify a commit deep in the history without modifying every following commit [17:56] so the blockchain further up would show where a transaction or file was edited [17:56] something like that [17:58] ok so in answer to the log file if a blockchain system was employed then any editing of a file would be shown on other such log files yes/no? [17:58] a hash chain [17:58] is that a yes or no? [17:58] the hash of all log entries after the edited one would change [17:59] ok [17:59] but you have to be able to tell that they changed [17:59] otherwise it is useless [18:00] and could not be changed back unless the origional transcation or file was replaced by the edited one [18:00] the only way to change it back is to put the log back to how it was before you edited it [18:00] OR find a hash collision, which is very difficult [18:00] i.e the edited file was replaced with the origional unedted file [18:00] yes [18:01] ok [18:01] the key to making it work in practice is with commitments [18:01] ie you release only the hashes, not the log [18:01] the hashes alone do not give any information but can be used to prove the log is unmodified later [18:02] eg this is used in provably fair gambling [18:02] so you would have to compaire #then [18:02] yes [18:03] is there a point coming soon? [18:03] what do you mean point? [18:04] hey does anyone remember ages ago when i asked: [18:04] if two people have secret numbers, can they compute the bitwise AND of their numbers, without revealing the numbers to each other? [18:04] well it turns out the answer is yes [18:04] o0 [18:04] is that not the basis of RSA? [18:04] no, not at all [18:05] so if a logging system that had to be secure against any editing of personal data i.e. CT scanning would have to have the basis of the provably faim gamming # system [18:05] RSA is encryption [18:05] it isnt the basis of DH key exchange either, which is what this channel said last time :) [18:06] brian_: no, that is an over-simplification [18:06] anyway it turns out the problem i stated can actually be solved for any boolean logic circuit built from AND and OR gates [18:07] but what i found interesting about this is AND/OR gates are not universal [18:07] what would be a system that could protect the audit trail [18:08] big dude with a gun [18:08] yep definitely sounds like homework [18:08] yes i agree [18:08] I called that ages ago [18:08] brian_: you're an idiot [18:08] really [18:08] yep [18:08] speak for yourself [18:09] nah it's fine. i'm not going to just give you things you can copy paste into your paper [18:09] you'll have to rewrite it in your own words [18:09] i think i do speak for myself :> [18:09] this channel is logged anyway, so we can always prove that it happened [18:09] but the logs are not hashed [18:09] maybe its in your first nick name daft [18:09] of course we'd need to ensure it ^ that [18:10] dafty* [18:10] anyway you should go and look up "non-repudiation" on google. and "hash chains". [18:10] this is no homework or paper excerise [18:10] and maybe how to study [18:11] well you did not even undestand my origional question only one person did [18:12] you assumed a bit there, i mostly had issue with the multiple clients and crossposting [18:13] and im no idiot! [18:13] speak for yourself. I'm definitely an idiot [18:14] :D [18:14] and have not come into chat for a slanging match either or name calling which must be against the rules of freeserve and IRC [18:14] I take umbridge over the suggestion that I'm "normal" [18:14] we have this same argument like one a week [18:15] ali1234: is that because people insist on thinking I'm sensible? [18:15] i think freeserve sould have a button to report abuse and ban those people [18:16] i don't think anyones used freeserve in years [18:16] I used to be on freeserve [18:16] me too [18:16] it was free [18:16] then orange [18:16] i remember magazine discs [18:16] so why not? [18:16] i had an autodialer to reconnect after the 59 minutes or whatever it was [18:16] I've probably still got a freeserve disk somewhere [18:17] I believe it was 1hour 59 minutes for the cutoff [18:17] well the ubuntu-uk should have a abuse button then [18:17] yep abuse from homework requesters :) [18:17] it does, but if you press it, a human comes and looks at the channel and decides what to do [18:17] * diddledan prods the button [18:17] its not omework what makes you that? [18:17] kind of like the emergency brake on a train [18:17] if you pull it when you shouldn't have, people get annoyed [18:18] I need to watch guardians of the galaxy 2 [18:18] ah that's still on my to-do list [18:18] I also need to eat dinner [18:18] brian_: prime reason we think it is homework is because you are asking questions but you don't seem to understand the terms in the questions, like you didn't come up with those questions yourself [18:19] so any technical question then according to you is homework then [18:19] plus irrelevant channel for it [18:19] that's not even close to what i said [18:19] no. long question chains which have no discernable destination are indicative of homework [18:20] well then it cant be homework then if its an irrelevant channel [18:20] why did you pick this channel to ask, btw? [18:20] just wondering [18:21] there are plenty of channels on freenode devoted to crypto and security [18:21] i just wanted someone who as knowled of log files and whhat they record and if they can be edited and what measures can be implemented to check [18:22] so what are you studying and where? [18:22] well the general answer is that no consumer computer systems have this level of protection [18:22] if you recal i was not specific about the O/S or the equipment [18:23] we're in #ubuntu-uk so we assume a linux of some kind [18:23] yes, and in general, nothing stops you editing the logs on most computers, if logging is even turned on, which it often is not [18:23] but would a medical computer system have this level of protection [18:23] it is more likely, but nobody here has ever used one, so we don't know [18:24] ok i accept that response [18:24] aah, sweet affirmation. I shall rest easy now [18:24] heh [18:25] lets say their was a dispute as to whether such a medical system carried out a scan [18:26] maybe you can see the level of questioning [18:26] well there's two possible outcomes [18:26] I vote to destroy the evidence [18:26] preferably with fire [18:26] either they produce the scans, proving that the scan took place, and then they can scan you again and show that the new scan is the same as the old one [18:26] which are [18:27] or tey produce the logs [18:27] either that or they can just destroy the logs and then say they never existed, because they have not publicly commited to the existence of logs [18:27] are but that would impact upon credibility [18:27] fraud is awesome. I vote fraud! [18:28] it might impact their credibility a bit [18:28] daftykins: will you keep watch while I burn the lab down? [18:28] but not enough to matter [18:28] that maybe difficult if logs were requested to determine if they did or did not run a scan [18:28] diddledan: ok, let's get some cheap walkie talkies [18:29] okay so not homework but now i am wondering if you are a conspiracy nut [18:29] are you trying to get the government to admit they did a CT scan on an alien or something? [18:29] XD [18:29] I swear my alter ego is Harley Quinn [18:30] i think it would be did they do a scan on daftykins [18:30] bottom line is you can't prove this either way after the fact unless systems were put in place beforehand to allow it [18:30] which there aren't, because i don't know any NHS website where they publish the hashes of their audit logs so that anyone can later verify them [18:30] i always like how quick the nuts are to attack me back [18:30] and anyway, if they wanted to scan an alien they could just trn the logging off [18:30] or use an unregistered CT scanner somewhere [18:31] wat? unregistered medical equipment?! [18:31] backstreet dentists [18:31] how is that even a thing?! [18:31] well its because of all the lose bolts that fit the left handed threads [18:31] P.S. I'll buy your liver for 200£ [18:32] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC4ROmnsL0o [18:32] I miss brass eye [18:33] he's got a hammer! [18:34] this may not be NHS related! [18:39] i guess they will after BREIXT dont need any regulation [19:02] i think the last time they did a scan on daftykins they got the error 'non human lifeform' :-P [19:03] "Have I Got News For You" facebooks: "Plans announced to test self-driving lorries on English roads next year after the successful trial of a rudderless ship by the Tory Party" [19:07] zmoylan-pi: confidential records my posterior... [19:07] well most thumb drives you find in back seat of a taxi are posterior based... [19:10] https://t.co/muJ4DDoTOg [19:11] that from today's telegraph? [19:12] its a bit lefty for matt [19:13] maybe photoshopped [19:15] no i just checked its real :) [19:16] i haven't been following the news much recently but it must be going really bad if that's on the front page of the telegraph [19:17] irish passport office has been super busy with applications from uk [19:17] :> [19:18] 100,000 in 2017, 65,000 in 2016... [19:19] how many in 2015 and 2014 though? [19:21] doesn't list those numbers, just a 44% increase over pre brexit levels... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/19/irish-passport-rush-demand-jumps-50-per-cent-since-brexit-vote [19:21] but the vote was in 2016 [19:22] half of the 2016 figure is post brexit too [19:23] the vote was june 2016 which means that only 3 months were in those figures [19:23] hmmmm [19:24] the whole article is really confusing with the way it presents the figures [19:24] 2017 means april 2016 to april 2017 [19:25] otherwise those figures would be even worse, 10000 in just 8 months [19:25] but wait [19:25] 100,000** [19:25] "More than 100,000 Irish passports were issued in the UK in the first six months of 2017, up from 65,000 last year" [19:25] so 2017 means jan 2017 to date [19:26] in that case jan 2016 thru june 2016 vs jan 2017 thru june 2017 [19:26] for a small island, it's a lot [19:26] but then it says "just over halfway through 2017 the passport service had already issued more than 500,000 passports" [19:27] that's most likely renewals [19:27] "In the four years to 2016, the service issued between 632,000 and 670,000 in an entire year." [19:27] so they are issuing nearly twice as many as usual [19:27] and only 20% of them are in the UK [19:27] and applications from outside the UK have also doubled [19:27] so what does it mean? [19:28] might be a lot of uk folk in eu with an option for an irish passport exercising that option [19:29] or british living in ireland [19:29] very possible [19:29] yes, we are part of the eu :-) [19:30] british in ireland would be more likely to have irish ancestry, and also more use for an irish passport [19:30] it means Brexit is Brexit the UK is leaving the EU the Maybot has say so! [19:30] so that makes sense [19:30] for a long time using a uk passport was considered least hassle passport for working abroad [19:30] yeah, we ducked that up, didn't we [19:30] zmoylan-pi: relative to what though? [19:31] everyone [19:31] american passports were once gold standard till terrorism in 80s meanst they were victim #1 [19:31] yeah but you don't have the option of any passport you want... [19:31] if you are wealthy there are ways [19:31] get an illegal one [19:31] most countries have ways of buying a passport legally [19:32] is Boris J now whistling for the divorce bill? [19:32] not as if it'll get you in trouble [19:32] just invest $$$ [19:32] lol: https://t.co/4rUdKwHfQF [19:33] I cant hear any whistling only the EU clock ticking away - the cliff edge is getting closer [19:33] that'll be sold to the chinese for their uk theme park... [19:35] but with self driving cars it will morph into a plane so wont crash over the cliff edge - oh it will not be able to fly in the EU free air space since we will no longer be members - all flights from the UK will be grounded LOL [19:36] i dont think that is how it works [19:36] we'll get the scots to finish hadrians wall so it encloses england... :-P [19:36] my home work lol [19:36] i think so have a look [19:37] SES hasnt been implemented yet because they can't agree the details [19:38] pretty much any solution will be cocked up by northern ireland border [19:38] people are deluding themselves about Brexit the true effects have not kicked in yet [19:38] yes, we know [19:39] well the MayBot and here government dont seem to know [19:39] if they wait long enough it becomes someone elses problem [19:40] just in charge of steering the ship onto the iceberg [19:40] and rats jumping overboard dressed as penguins... [19:40] noo, not pingu!?! [19:40] can they swim [19:41] the rats dressed as penguins? [19:41] rats or penguins? both are yes afaik [19:43] well 350 million a week can be fed back into the NHS according to the chief whistler Boris J [19:44] who now concedes that we legally have to pay the divorce bilL [19:45] give Boris J the red button - aimed locked and loaded [19:46] in contrast the dm is excited about 29,000 eu citizens applying for uk citizenship up from 16,000 [19:46] all dummies cant afford the real things [19:47] aircraft carries without no aircraft for 5 year or more [19:48] they should fill it with vintage wwii aircarft carrier planes till then... :-) [19:48] mind you its a nice big aircraft carrier [19:49] sampson radar system [19:49] use it as a 3rd runway for heathrow... :-) [19:49] if they can get it up the Thames [19:50] a bit of dredging and move a few bridges... :-P [19:50] just hope the yanks dont crash into it [19:50] or shoot it... [19:51] or ram it... [19:51] well admirals are two a penny or cent in the us navy [19:52] when will the launch the Donald L Trump class of ship [19:53] depends when the russians build it... [19:53] lol [19:55] well maybe that the trade deal the us will have with the uk after brexit [19:56] or maybe they will want a lot of irish and brits to build the great wall of Mexico [19:56] their chlorinated chicken sounds yum... [19:57] we will end up looking like yanks eating that stuff [19:57] all bloat and bullshit [19:58] or drop down dead with heart attacks [19:58] pretty sure there's no divide now on the fat front between the UK and US [19:58] i think there's still a differnce as a lot more folk in uk use public transport and walk more [19:59] but catching up [20:01] of course with the special relations between the us and uk will tis make the uk more of a target in respect of NK? [20:02] hahaha [20:02] mind you we do a good range of NK haircuts in London [20:04] so could be Boris J and the Maybot have a secret plan after Brexit - make every one have a NK hhaircut [20:05] soylent green is made of lefties... \o/ [20:06] oh if Brexit was not Brexit [20:07] all our problems would be solved [20:08] not all, but most of the self inflicted problems of last year... [20:08] and to come [20:10]