[14:50] <RalphBa> where is the 17.10 daily build gone?
[14:52] <jbicha> we deleted it
[14:52] <RalphBa> jbicha, why?
[14:53] <jbicha> RalphBa: did you read https://ubuntugnome.org/ubuntu-gnome-17-04-released/ ?
[14:53] <RalphBa> no
[14:54] <RalphBa> I want to have a plain gnome, not that crap I saw in ubuntu 17.10 daily. you even cannot configure shell extensions
[14:54] <jbicha> Ubuntu GNOME has been discontinued and users will be upgraded to Ubuntu when they update to 17.10 or 18.04 LTS
[14:54] <jbicha> what do you mean you can't configure shell extensions?
[14:55] <jbicha> the last line of the Ubuntu Desktop section in the release notes gives you 2 ways to get a more "vanilla" GNOME
[14:55] <jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseNotes/#Ubuntu_Desktop
[14:56] <RalphBa> When I installed ubuntu gnome daily and tried to install my shell extensions the according tweak page was different just configuring the "unity clone dock to dash clone"
[14:57] <RalphBa> yeah, installing gnome-session I did. the result was a messed up gnome
[14:57] <RalphBa> I'd like not to have the not vanilla stuff at all
[14:57] <RalphBa> plain gnome
[14:58] <RalphBa> I would not have welcome cannonical decission if I would have known that the mess up the gnome line with that
[14:58] <jbicha> I don't understand what you mean by messed up gnome after installing gnome-session
[14:59] <RalphBa> gnome twaek could not enable and disable shell extensions
[14:59] <jbicha> did you pick 'GNOME' from the login screen?
[14:59] <RalphBa> I had to click on an extension, then a window poped up where I could enable and disable some extensions but most were just messed up
[14:59] <RalphBa> yes
[15:00] <jbicha> there was a bug a few weeks ago that has been fixed. You should try again
[15:00] <jbicha> fixed in gnome-tweak-tool 3.26.1
[15:00] <RalphBa> then I removed ubuntu 17.10 daily and installed the still existing ubuntu gnome daily which worked perfect
[15:01] <RalphBa> but I still have to load stuff on my system which I do not want, right?
[15:02] <jbicha> I don't think that's a big problem though…
[15:03] <jbicha> Ubuntu GNOME included GNOME Classic for years but I don't think most users used it or cared that it was installed
[15:03] <RalphBa> I think that it will be a problem as long as it won't be vanilla at the initial system
[15:04] <jbicha> why is it a problem?
[15:04] <RalphBa> well, however... today is a really bad day
[15:05] <RalphBa> can I completely remove the cannonical gnome stuff without destroying the system?
[15:05] <jbicha> yes but you're not running a supported Ubuntu system any more
[15:06] <RalphBa> ... well
[15:06] <RalphBa> theres the problem ;)
[15:06] <jbicha> and I don't see how having an Ubuntu session option is a big deal
[15:06] <jbicha> just don't log into it if you don't want it
[15:06] <RalphBa> havin the ubuntu session maybe not, havin the dash to dock clone maybe yes
[15:07] <RalphBa> also it complicates every try to experiment with stuff because the base is not standard
[15:08] <RalphBa> doesn't matter... I'm still with ubuntu because I could avoid that own baked things. now obviously I cant... so debian here I come *facepalm*
[15:11] <jbicha> you don't need to change operating systems because of one issue
[15:13] <RalphBa> I was glad to hear, they repair their first mistake, now I hear they do another... what should I say other than it has to end?
[15:14] <jbicha> what mistake? have you filed a bug?
[15:14] <RalphBa> They obviously didn't make things better because they got the point, but because they simply failed with mir and unity
[15:14] <RalphBa> the mistake to not be vanilla
[15:15] <RalphBa> to not do the things concerning desktops as they has to be done
[15:15] <jbicha> how are you installing Dash to Dock?
[15:15] <RalphBa> via firefox
[15:15] <jbicha> and how doesn't it work? it works fine here
[15:16] <RalphBa> I don't say it doesn't work now, thats not the point
[15:16] <jbicha> (I installed by searching for Dash to Dock in the Activities Overview… which uses gnome-software)
[15:16] <jbicha> !!
[15:16] <RalphBa> the point is that I want and need a clean system
[15:16] <jbicha> you're switching operating systems because a bug that doesn't exist?
[15:16] <RalphBa> no, because it isn't vanilla
[15:17] <jbicha> but it is vanilla in the GNOME session
[15:17] <RalphBa> until now I had a ubuntu base + vanilla gnome without anything which might interact with it
[15:17] <jbicha> Dash to Dock isn't vanilla…
[15:18] <jbicha> GNOME Classic isn't vanilla
[15:18] <RalphBa> now there always would be this shady thing in background which could cause an error. even if it does not, it complicates things
[15:19] <RalphBa> when was gnome classic a part of ubuntu gnome?
[15:19] <RalphBa> in 16.04?
[15:19] <jbicha> since forever, it was installed by default but it wasn't the default session
[15:19] <RalphBa> and even if, isn't it made by gnome?
[15:19] <jbicha> it didn't break anything and I don't see any evidence that having the Ubuntu session installed breaks anything if you use the GNOME session
[15:20] <jbicha> the Ubuntu Dock is made by the same people that make Dash to Dock which you obviously don't have a problem with
[15:20] <jbicha> the Ubuntu session is some theming, a tweaked version of a very popular Dock, and appindicator support
[15:21] <jbicha> it's not crazy or extreme at all in my opinion
[15:21] <RalphBa> it is now, and in future?
[15:21] <jbicha> yes, the whole point of the Ubuntu Dock session is to use the Dash to Dock extension underneath!
[15:21] <RalphBa> will ubuntu gnome resurrect if it gets something messy like unity?
[15:21] <jbicha> *extension
[15:22] <jbicha> I don't think Ubuntu will go very far
[15:22] <RalphBa> well... unless they get again a fancy idea like their own smartphone
[15:22] <RalphBa> until not unless
[15:22] <jbicha> look: if we continued making Ubuntu GNOME releases, then the Ubuntu GNOME team loses our influence on the default Ubuntu desktop
[15:23] <jbicha> we are helping to keep Ubuntu very close to GNOME because there is only one GNOME flavor of Ubuntu
[15:23] <jbicha> otherwise Canonical could say "if you want GNOME, just install Ubuntu GNOME"
[15:24] <RalphBa> I understand that it might be a political wise decision. But you have to understand that some people appreciated your more pure work and might be dissapointed by loosing it
[15:24] <jbicha> it is a very intentional decision for us to *not* release new Ubuntu GNOME iso's
[15:24] <jbicha> but you're not losing it
[15:24] <jbicha> install gnome-session and log in to it and don't worry about what's happening in the Ubuntu session if you don't want to use it
[15:25] <jbicha> or install vanilla-gnome-desktop if you want the extra core GNOME apps too
[15:26] <RalphBa> you see, you might now have more influence on ubuntu, but you lost independence. also what you think will happen? there will come a time for a lot of people where they might say f**k it I do not install vanilla yet.
[15:26] <jbicha> we never had independence
[15:27] <jbicha> the Ubuntu GNOME team has always been a part of the Ubuntu Desktop team
[15:27] <RalphBa> that's the end of vanilla gnome within ubuntu.
[15:27] <RalphBa> the funny thing, the same game starts again
[15:27] <jbicha> part of being a team is compromising to make decisions to get things done
[15:28] <jbicha> I know one leader on the Desktop team that wanted window control buttons to stay on the left but my side (move them back to the right) won that argument
[15:28] <RalphBa> part of beein ubuntu gnome was once to stand up and say we want to have an alternative ;)
[15:28] <jbicha> the old Ubuntu GNOME team wants tracker in the default install but we haven't won that one yet
[15:29] <RalphBa> tracker?
[15:29] <jbicha> I am having a hard time understanding what it is that you have a problem with
[15:30] <RalphBa> My problem is, that I get dragged into the desktop politics I left once. Its also very ideological, so maybe you simply can't understand because you are not me
[15:31] <RalphBa> Ubuntu GNOME was pretty simple. ubuntu base + gnome
[15:31] <RalphBa> now things get complicated again
[15:32] <RalphBa> the funny thing, a separate ubuntu gnome would be easier to release than ever before
[15:32] <jbicha> Ubuntu GNOME has always been complicated. We've just done a good job of hiding the complexity the last few years
[15:33] <RalphBa> just let the ubuntu-session stuff out and install gnome-session and vaniall-gnome-desktop. is also a very good quality check... it fails if things are not separated correctly
[15:33] <RalphBa> for the user it was not complicated
[15:33] <RalphBa> therefor you've done a really good job... you leave now
[15:34] <jbicha> I mean you can uninstall ubuntu-session if you want but you won't have ubuntu-desktop installed which could cause issues on upgrades
[15:34] <jbicha> and that's not supported by Canonical
[15:35] <RalphBa> yes, that would be a problem complicating things on the other side.
[15:35] <RalphBa> you see what I'm missing
[15:35] <RalphBa> ?
[15:35] <jbicha> no
[15:36] <RalphBa> a desktop package for gnome
[15:36] <RalphBa> :-D
[15:36] <jbicha> vanilla-gnome-desktop exists
[15:36] <RalphBa> but it isn't able to live on its own without getting troubles... you just said
[15:37] <jbicha> ubuntu-desktop is supported for 5 years in an LTS, vanilla-gnome-desktop is just something we put together that might be useful but isn't supported by Canonical
[15:38] <RalphBa> well, I don't think it makes sense to continue. I thank you for the last years, it was a fun time. I wish you the best on your new way
[15:38] <jbicha> personally I use ubuntu-desktop (and usually the Ubuntu session), I think d_arkxst might use vanilla-gnome-desktop
[15:44] <jbicha> a lot of the packaging work is shared between Ubuntu and Debian GNOME
[15:45] <jbicha> use whatever distro you like :)
[15:49] <RalphBa> yeah, debian is a big question mark. What I liked about ubuntu was installing and getting to work
[15:49] <RalphBa> in combination with fast release cycles
[15:50] <jbicha> are you using 17.10 now?
[15:50] <RalphBa> yes
[15:51] <RalphBa> at my pc, I just wanted to reinstall my tablet
[15:51] <RalphBa> when I found out that ubuntu gnome is gone
[15:51] <RalphBa> my pc was installed from a daily build of ubuntu gnome
[15:51] <RalphBa> before a few weeks
[15:52] <jbicha> didn't you notice that ubuntu-gnome-desktop pulled in ubuntu-desktop recently?
[15:52] <jbicha> in other words, installing Ubuntu on the tablet and then installing vanilla-gnome-desktop on top of it will give you about the same thing as you already have on your pc
[15:52] <RalphBa> no, but I also didn't pay attention
[15:53] <RalphBa> how said, its not only because of what I get now. Its more because the future politics and what this could end in
[15:53] <RalphBa> the stability of knowing that I have a common gnome desktop is gone
[15:53] <RalphBa> the future is uncertain
[15:54] <jbicha> Ubuntu GNOME has put a lot of work in since we started to allow for a pretty vanilla GNOME on Ubuntu
[15:55] <jbicha> there was even more work during the 17.10 cycle from the Desktop Team to make that even better
[15:55] <RalphBa> unity was the point where ubuntu lost my trust concerning the desktop. ubuntu gnome had it. ubuntu gnome is gone
[15:55] <jbicha> it's now possible to have the default GNOME theme in the GNOME session and the Ubuntu theme in the Ubuntu session. That's *never* been possible before
[15:56] <RalphBa> that doesn't change the mistrust in future politics
[15:56] <jbicha> it's the same people doing the work now though
[15:56] <RalphBa> it was clear, ubuntu gnome stood for the common gnome desktop...
[15:56] <RalphBa> the same people, but other decisions
[15:57] <RalphBa> as you said earlier with the tracker
[15:57] <jbicha> Ubuntu 17.10 is clearly better in my opinion than Ubuntu GNOME 17.04 was
[15:57] <jbicha> do you know what version of nautilus was included in 17.04?
[15:57] <jbicha> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus
[15:58] <RalphBa> no, I do not
[15:58] <RalphBa> yes, 3.20
[15:58] <jbicha> but now we have 3.26!
[15:58] <RalphBa> gnome was 3.22 right?
[15:59] <jbicha> Ubuntu GNOME 17.04 tried to include GNOME 3.24 but we missed a few pieces like nautilus
[15:59] <RalphBa> thats wonderful, but doesn't give me the trust that bad things won't happen
[15:59] <RalphBa> just say amazon, online search, and others
[16:00] <RalphBa> ubuntu desktop never will gain the trust as ubuntu gnome did. because ubuntu will never be "just" a distribution
[16:00] <jbicha> if you're trying to decide what to install on your tablet today, I encourage you to decide based on how things are today
[16:00] <jbicha> Debian has much of GNOME 3.26 but is missing gnome-shell, gnome-control-center and some related pieces: https://www.0d.be/debian/debian-gnome-3.26-status.html
[16:01] <RalphBa> for me the future plays a huge role, nothing worse than have to mess around with such things in a moment you have no time to search another distro. better to know that I have to search for another yet where I have time before bad things happen
[16:19] <RalphBa> maybe I move to manjaro, I like the pure and well controllable flavour of arch and the idea of using an european distro. Just don't like and use arch because it's sometimes pretty unstable, but manjaro offers a stable branch
[23:09] <RalphBa> thats interesting, manjaro architect detected most of my full disk encrypted environment... impressed
[23:10] <RalphBa> like the old debian cli installer just more powerful