[00:07] I should likely respond to something...But words are hard! [00:23] Word. [02:45] bluesabre: I'll be about tonight - might need a bunch of pings :p [02:45] :) [02:45] :) [02:45] cos it's 3:45 and I'm now awake :( [02:45] That's really dang early [02:46] yup [02:47] woohoo - ppa's at bionic :) [02:53] flocculant: updated the agenda for tomorrow, feel free to add anything else you might be interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [02:53] Will send the announcement in a few [02:54] ok [02:55] bionic updates - all from our ppa's :D [02:57] beginning of cycle is always fun with copying ppa packages [02:57] there's probably an easier way :\ [02:57] I just re-upload, it's pretty easy. [02:58] yeah [02:58] Time consuming though [02:58] Finally fixed the -settings package [02:58] debuild -tc -sa -S && bppackage ../*.dsc -l ppa:xubuntu-dev/xfce4-gtk3 -b and it's done. [02:59] That would be the easier way I didn't know about :D [02:59] I thought you meant literally copying the package forward. [02:59] is there a way to know how many 'people' are downloading from a ppa? [02:59] dget; cd; dch -i; cd ..; dput [03:00] flocculant: Unit193 has some method to get stats [03:01] could be useful to know how many [03:01] might be closer to 'testers' than 'I report on trackers' :D [03:02] because that's apparently 4 ... [03:02] :D [03:05] http://paste.openstack.org/show/z29kjW3pJKkweByGIZrP keep in mind this includes builds installing them. [03:05] ..It also sometimes miscounts. [03:06] Unit193: ta - and ack [03:07] after meeting and I push testing mail - might be useful to check a week or so after [03:07] I'm, uh. likely going to let bluesabre push to PPAs. :3 [03:08] :) [03:08] :) [03:09] Bionic is around for 3 years, I don't really want to commit to keeping them up to date/functional/backporting for that long. :3 [03:09] lol [03:23] Our official PPAs promise no support [03:25] And if they are mostly for our use or testing, not sure it's necessary to keep them up to date unless somebody in the team has a need for them [03:26] Anyhoo, up too late, night all [03:29] night night [06:52] bluesabre: gtk_container_get_children produces a list which I should free. also it implemented using the same gtk_container_foreach. [06:52] it makes empty list and then call foreach, in each callback call it adds child to the list [09:47] ninetls: yup, was just a quick one-liner example [10:20] bluesabre: You see the archive is open? [10:21] Unit193: indeed! [10:21] bluesabre: You going to do the uploads I had pending in my head? I can't remember them. :D [10:21] Unit193: I'll probably get some uploads in tonight [10:21] :3 [10:21] pa-plug [10:21] you mentioned desktop recently [10:21] also going to discuss at the meeting this evening [10:22] Ah right. [10:27] some changes to the default settings may also be worth discussing [10:27] e.g. a shortcut in whiskermenu to report a bug against xfce or something [10:28] https://xfce.org/getinvolved [10:28] and with shortcut i mean something like an action [10:29] search action [10:29] That's a bit harder, unless you know which precise package. Also, that might become more "interesting" with the infra changes upstream, and the fact this release will be 3 years. [10:29] yeah, but we'll need some redirects there anyhow, but you're right... [10:30] anyway, was just a thought, maybe we have other good ideas for additional default actions [10:30] and pleeease, let's discuss the xfwm4 alt-tab default (those huge previews really don't work well imo) [10:31] In the past, distros have pointed at thir own trackers so as not to "spam" upstream with what could be packaging bugs or bugs in old releases long since fixed. [10:31] (Which huge previews?) [10:32] the alt-tab image previews with xfwm [10:33] yeah, a "lp #1234" shortcut may also be helpful [10:33] Launchpad bug 1234 in Launchpad itself "Gina is an unmaintainable mess of command line options, environment variables and shell scripts" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1234 [10:33] ooops :) [10:34] Yeah wasn't sure if I had a non-default setting, or if we defined "huge" differently. I'm presuming "show window preview instead of icon" is selected. [10:36] yeah, that is currently selected [10:37] but tbh based on the feedback from my work colleagues (i've rolled out xubuntu within my company/team) it's not helpful [10:37] \o/ [10:37] And yeah, I either use this, or list mode. [10:38] if the window-preview mode could be bound to a different shortcut that could also be helpful [10:38] not sure it's worth it. [10:41] Yeah, I prefer the icon only mode or list mode [10:42] I have a few folks where I work (including 3/5 of our web team) using xubuntu :) [10:46] * Unit193 is sure bluesabre does https://i.imgur.com/snLplqq.jpg [11:04] Nah, more like "I use this. You use this." [11:05] :) [11:05] we could almost do that meeting now [11:05] almost everyone is here now [11:05] flocculant? [11:05] :) [11:06] :-) he'll be hiding [11:07] yey meeting adjourned \o/ [11:07] Everyone hides from meetings. [11:43] sure. [11:49] the time might be a bit too late for me this time [13:17] ochosi: new job - mon - thursday not available between 7:15 and 5:30, finish early on Friday [21:37] evening all [21:40] hi bluesabre :) [21:42] hey [21:43] hi ochosi [21:44] hope knome turns up so I can corrall you all :p [21:44] :) [21:45] I might be a bit slow - so I will 'but' to slow you all down :D [21:45] :D [21:46] but ... [21:46] a bit like that :p [21:47] !team | Meeting in 13 minutes, swing by if you want to pitch in :) [21:47] Meeting in 13 minutes, swing by if you want to pitch in :): team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193 [21:59] Who put this? "there's a phuny-thing, but could you please log this meeting to the ubuntu wiki ? so other's can go and read about artful aardvark 17.10." [21:59] :D [21:59] could have been slickymaster [22:00] or me :p [22:00] lol [22:00] sean - burt is this guy ... [22:00] his nick is yselnne [22:01] I will obv remember that [22:01] hm [22:01] :D [22:01] #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting [22:01] Meeting started Fri Oct 27 22:01:17 2017 UTC. The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [22:01] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [22:01] bluesabre: got fot it :D [22:01] for :D [22:01] Who's around? [22:01] o/ [22:01] me !!!!!!!!!!! [22:02] o/ [22:02] #chair ochosi flocculant slickymaster Unit193 [22:02] :( [22:02] #chair ochosi flocculant slickymaster Unit193 [22:02] Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant ochosi slickymaster [22:02] can't say I'm not, now [22:02] :D [22:02] Sneaky [22:02] gah [22:02] Anybody else want a chair ;) [22:02] ... [22:03] Let's get started then [22:03] #topic Open action items [22:03] (and there are none) [22:03] #topic Updates and Announcements [22:03] bluesabre: [22:03] #info Blueprints are up: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-development [22:03] #info The archive is open [22:03] #info PPAs are ready [22:03] #info Feature Definition Freeze on November 30th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureDefinitionFreeze [22:04] can I jump in right at the start [22:04] flocculant: go for it [22:04] make a statement and then we can all go 'argue' mode [22:04] ok ... so [22:05] we has bugs [22:05] we has isues [22:05] we has xfce doing stuff [22:05] we has xfce doing stuff for the other year [22:05] and year [22:05] WE have 6 months [22:06] to count for 3 years [22:06] can we PLEASE decide soon [22:06] then we can ALL test [22:07] that is the Xubuntu 18.04 QA statement [22:07] akxwi-dave's not done this 3 year lie [22:07] I have [22:07] not again. [22:07] Full Stop. [22:08] bluesabre: thanks ;) [22:08] Cool, good discussion material :D [22:08] Right, so 4.13 is a *development* release, by the name alone it really shouldn't be in an LTS. [22:08] :D [22:08] yes [22:08] Discussion [22:08] so one sec [22:09] #info Roadmap (all blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-roadmap) [22:09] Anything else we want to #info? [22:10] (for announcements)? [22:10] not from me :D [22:10] me neither [22:10] nothing here also [22:11] Allllrighty, onwards :) [22:11] #topic Discussion [22:11] soory ;) [22:12] We'll move things around a bit [22:12] i vaguely remember we've been there before with 4.12 [22:12] #subtopic Xfce 4.13/4.14 [22:12] I'll wait now - but I have points here [22:12] Agreed that 4.13 is development and we definitely don't want a lot of dev-y things in there [22:13] But I also think there are some things that are more stable now than in the 4.12 branch [22:13] Thunar was *stable* and a nightmare [22:13] We're Ubuntu based, means we have PPAs. Lets use them, then we can have updates all cycle and not be stuck with 4.13.2 when 4.13.6 was released months ago. [22:13] point [22:13] yeah, PPAs make a lot of sense [22:13] yep [22:14] do we have somewhere we can 'point' and call that IT [22:14] Thunar has out of tree plugins, the new version has no capability for them. It's also at this point something that "if it works, don't touch it" in my mind. :D [22:14] Yes, Thunar was the extreme example, I don't want the dev version :D [22:14] i also agree with bluesabre, some things are more stable/maintained in the devel cycle. plus it's quite hard to really fully assess the stability of the components [22:14] can we just now chuck in gtk3 [22:15] At the same time, we also already have some gtk3 components that are dev-level [22:15] Yeeah.. [22:15] what do we have there we can use and force through ppa? [22:15] bluesabre: As a slight reminder, don't touch libxfce4ui. [22:16] Unit193: sure thing [22:16] can I just make an important point - especially from 'out' view [22:16] flocculant: We have our ~xubuntu-dev PPAs which are about as official as we want to get [22:16] -staging can be a safe place to land bug fixes before they land in SRUs [22:16] what are we talking about that we expect tobe gtk3 in 18.04 [22:17] That's what this discussion is about :D [22:17] bluesabre: cabn we ignore ppa ftm [22:17] Yes. [22:17] yea yea - so what? [22:17] So focusing... [22:17] give me a list :D [22:17] Panel plugins are generally low impact. [22:18] And we already have most of them [22:18] xfce4-notifyd is stable now [22:18] pa for the most part is drop in [22:18] yes [22:19] and moreso soon [22:19] :) [22:19] exo is stable [22:20] xfce4-settings is dev, but stable (haven't heard otherwise), but probably going to hold until the rest of xfce core is ready [22:20] xfpm will get another release [22:20] and is also stable [22:20] what I would like to do for testing this stuff is quit4e simple, run artful - add this ppa [22:20] Right [22:21] can we do that? [22:21] Want to nail down what we want before I start uploading to a PPA [22:21] and to the archive [22:21] Might be a discussion that goes for a few days [22:21] that's you're calls [22:21] yeah, i'd say we should first get the list [22:21] nd that's fine [22:21] a [22:22] But definitely glad to start the discussion [22:22] I want to be able to say run artful - add this ppa [22:22] flocculant: yes, and we will have that [22:22] cool [22:22] bluesabre: we could have two "levels" of PPAs for artful [22:22] so we can start with 2 lists [22:22] if qa has that then we can push forward [22:23] I've been pushing everything to xfce4-gtk3. [22:23] one that we're confident about, a second one that we're less confident about [22:23] or we don't push for the things we don't trust [22:23] Unit193: a weeklyish of numbers on that ppa would be helpful [22:23] yeah, but the whole "trust" thing is tricky [22:24] ochosi: +1 [22:24] I don't trust xfpm past 1.4.4 :3 [22:24] why's that? [22:24] so we could possibly have xubuntu-dev/stable and xubuntu-dev/experimental if we want to go that route [22:24] qa position is simple - we'll test - if we have #'s thats great [22:24] point [22:24] yeah, something like that [22:24] Tried it out, didn't exactly go so well, reverted. [22:25] important point [22:25] * flocculant waits [22:26] Unit193: thoughts on the 2-ppa system? [22:26] bluesabre: Eg, I always push to experimental, wait for someone to tell me to copy over? [22:26] #if 'we' have some clue as to something that might land in ppa which could kill everything off - we can use the tracker to point testers to it [22:26] eg [22:26] primary target those who want to test things for us [22:26] DON@T UOGRADE warning :p [22:27] bluesabre: I kind of need something to guide me so I don't go "Oh new $package, uhh...Where the heck does this go? No clue, I'll just pop it in my repo for now." and forget. [22:27] but that takes some communication - whiche even though we're hours apart we're quite good at [22:28] Unit193: yeah, I think that's a good idea. experimental can be a landing place for all those [22:28] i think everything can go to experimental [22:28] my position is a single ppa if poss [22:28] ochosi: ack [22:28] and the things that are on our whitelist for bionic go to staging [22:28] dev'y peeps [22:29] flocculant: the stable ppa would be the way to go for that, and we can have specific calls for testing for items in exp if needed [22:29] another trivial one is xfce4-volume-pulse. i ported it recently [22:29] can we not point people to experimental and stagin? [22:29] bluesabre: surely we need them to do 'breaky' stuff? [22:30] ppa-purge always worked for me [22:30] mmm [22:30] ochosi: I've seen it, but in light of pa-plug does it matter? I'm presuming it doesn't do alsa, so you'd not be able to do volumeicon-alsa+xfce4-volumed anymore? :P [22:30] true [22:30] flocculant: for staging/exp, we can do the same as we do for SRUs, add -proposed, install the package, remove -proposed [22:30] could we not [22:31] If we keep the processes the same, it's easier for contributors coming from anywhere in ubuntu [22:31] stuff we really want = staging, not too sure = exp ? [22:31] yup, that would be my thought [22:31] I'd love to make it simple for testers [22:31] -staging is for updates we plan to land in the archive soon [22:31] and then it's simpler for us [22:31] usually for already released series [22:32] bluesabre: ok - so add a ppa? [22:32] But glad to do what we can to help qa [22:32] dude [22:32] we'll test what you give us :) [22:32] (sorry, everybody is really rapid fire right now) [22:32] ye [22:32] a [22:33] Not used to having meetings with multiple attendees :D [22:33] take 5 [22:33] catch up on consensus [22:33] :) [22:33] should we start a piratepad for the two lists of components though? [22:33] ochosi: sounds good to me, want to start that? [22:33] ochosi: ie staging and defintes? [22:33] i mean we can do that in parallel to this meeting and keep it open [22:33] flocculant: yup [22:33] also [22:34] what xfce possibles do we want to have - and are they stable enough? [22:35] is the other one [22:35] http://pad.ubuntu.com/PyIIYsyIfn [22:35] What I'm reading here: "There will be multiple PPAs, for different things due to different levels of desire and testing needs." and what I'm interpreting that as: "Unit193 will always upload to experimental, people can copy over what's needed" :P [22:35] ochosi: That's not a piratepad, fyi. [22:36] potato potato [22:36] Unit193: yes. experimental where all packages can land [22:37] I can live with that. [22:37] I can also point my package tracker thingy at it. [22:37] and stable where approved (we will ship in bionic/oldstable) packages will be copied to when approved [22:39] Good to have that agreed on [22:40] #action bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs [22:40] ACTION: bluesabre to create "stable" and "experimental" PPAs [22:40] Basically, as long as we don't confuse flocculant or Unit193, we're good! [22:40] What happens with xfce4-gtk3? [22:40] Yup [22:40] I'm not sure yet what we do with our existing PPAs [22:40] Unit193: :) [22:41] I think -gtk3 still has a purpose, staging may no longer with stable [22:41] flocculant: Also, whatever you want from me, please ask. I'm generally accommodating enough, but I can't read minds. :3 [22:42] :) [22:42] bluesabre: -staging was pre-SRU stuff, xfce4-gtk3 is what experimental sounds like. [22:42] bluesabre: can we back set 'fairl unused ppa's to artful' assuming then that someone like me would just sety it to Steve Majors? [22:42] if I wanted to [22:42] flocculant: I really have no idea what that sentence means [22:43] so all our 'we want this stuff tested' was at right version [22:43] bluesabre: Steve Majors was the 6 Million Dollar Man [22:44] flocculant: I know what that is, but nothing more :D [22:44] oic failr - fairly unused [22:45] We'll have the new PPAs only running artful and bionic, and will drop a when c starts [22:45] so - I'd move to bionic cos I update daily - not monthly [22:45] So we have everything running the env we want [22:45] k - I think that's the same thing :D [22:45] Unit193: I think we can drop the -gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental then [22:46] yea [22:46] that's my position [22:46] Unit193: you want the task to decomm that PPA (after copying over)? [22:46] bluesabre: I can do that, if you put it as blocked by yours. [22:47] Unit193: certainly :) [22:47] #action Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental [22:47] ACTION: Unit193 to decommission the xfce4-gtk3 ppa in favor of experimental [22:47] bluesabre Unit193 ochosi - what I would like from qa pov - is anything that's likely 18.04 bound in one place [22:48] if themesis a pain - then I'll make 1 exception :D [22:48] That's where we're heading with this plan :) [22:48] I thought so :D [22:49] I just ned something concretish to tell peopl [22:49] e [22:49] or akxwi-dave does - cos all tasks :p [22:49] flocculant: I'll also add a new template for xfpanel-switch to grab our new panel plugins to make it easier for artful users to get set up [22:49] noice [22:50] bluesabre: you wanto hold fire there [22:50] cos defaults .... [22:50] Yeah, we can't replace panel defaults in an already created session, so that's the next best thing for the panel [22:51] bluesabre: but we can have new defaults? or the whole world is on dos6 :D [22:51] if only [22:52] could ask testers to create new sessions too, if it's not just about panel settings [22:52] yeah [22:52] s/sessions/accounts/ [22:52] xubuntu council - I would like us to loom at defaults [22:52] bah [22:52] s/loom/look [22:53] technically we have new defaults available in the daily ppa and can land them in exp/stable when we make them [22:53] yea but testing [22:53] we've already had 2 weeks of the time we never get :D [22:54] I'm not sure what the question is :D [22:54] Log out, flip to TTY, rm -rf ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml then log back in. [22:54] anyway - point was leave defaults till that discussion [22:54] bluesabre: ^^ [22:54] gotcha [22:54] Right, and here's where the daily PPA is nice, so as not to confuse with experimental. [22:54] yea [22:54] I think we need 2 for sure [22:55] definites/mm reallys [22:55] whichever way we look - we've got freezes to work with [22:56] Yep [22:56] MY point is that - if we've got less ppa's to get people loooking [22:56] tghen we tghen arrow in on issues [22:56] Correct [22:57] And we don't miss things by running things that won't be included in bionic [22:57] like all the -gtk3 bits of xfce [22:57] rather than me seeing something on ppa785 and akxwi-dave seeing the sqame thing on 364 - but same package [22:57] Yup [22:58] yea cool [22:58] So we'll get that straightened out quickly [22:58] 2 ppa's for the whole cycle wou;ld be great for me [22:58] people ppa [22:58] kev ppa [22:58] And we'll work on the list for the next few days [22:58] yup [22:58] type thing [22:58] Anything else we want to discuss? [22:59] bluesabre: this is topic 1 :S [22:59] Concerns, team deadlines, etc? [22:59] from my side that's the main part [22:59] Q: ...Does that mean we'll have to put daily builds in experimental? :/ [22:59] Unit193: I think daily should stay in daily [22:59] goodgood job it's one topic :D [22:59] Good, I don't want those. :3 [22:59] They might be months away from any release [23:00] oh what [23:00] flocculant: The topics I had were Dev/QA Coordination, Artful -> Bionic testing PPAs, Package updates: Xfce 4.14 components, PulseAudio Plugin, StatusNotifier Plugin ... and we've smashed them all together :D [23:00] flocculant: the daily things [23:01] #action bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental [23:01] ACTION: bluesabre, ochosi, and Unit193 to review xfce component list for stable/experimental [23:01] ththatbah [23:02]