[02:00] <bluesabre> Unit193: if we want to tag along with ayatana this cycle, not opposed
[02:00] <Unit193> bluesabre: It doesn't really matter, so in that case I'd just like fewer deps.  Personally, I'd like to sync from Debian and drop the systemd init stuff.
[02:01] <bluesabre> Yeah, that sounds like a good thing to me
[02:02] <Unit193> Tried to convince andr zejr or nine tls to fix ind-plug upstream, but thus far no luck. :P
[02:02] <bluesabre> Happy to help move that along too
[02:03] <bluesabre> (but not tonight)
[10:49] <bluesabre> Good morning
[10:50] <bluesabre> Unit193: I see a conversation on the -desktop mailing list that you'll probably not be a fan of
[10:51] <bluesabre> "Keep, modify or drop Ubuntu's headerbar patches"
[10:57] <bluesabre> And now the conversation has moved to the community hub, https://community.ubuntu.com/t/removal-of-headerbar-patches-and-impact-on-unity/1456
[10:59] <bluesabre> As far as we go, I think the patches should be dropped. CSDs work in Xfce. If we want the non-CSD versions of apps, we can pick up the MATE versions instead of the GNOME ones
[11:00] <knome> for consistency, i think we should go all CSD or all non-CSD
[11:00] <knome> or at least as much as possible
[14:23] <Unit193> bluesabre: I am not so much, yes.  I'm also in CC.
[14:24] <knome> (:
[15:33] <ochosi> i'm rather on bluesabre's side of the argument, i don't like the patches very much. some of them look and feel ok, many don't. i'd prefer to leave it to application developers how their apps shall look and ubuntu carrying lots of gtk+ patches is the source of much evil (or used to be in the past)
[15:42] <Unit193> I was careful to never indicate my stance was that of Xubuntu.
[15:46] <ochosi> yeah, that's fine
[15:46] <ochosi> i would do the same, we're still having a discussion here i guess
[15:47] <Unit193> I don't think it's ideal by any means, but the alternative is worse.
[15:47] <ochosi> jbicha reached out to me and i told him i would discuss with you, i would also never sell my personal stance as that of our community. i know it's a (slightly over-)heated topic for many
[15:48] <Unit193> "Discuss with you" sounds ominous.
[15:50] <ochosi> hah, it's not ominous at all
[15:50] <ochosi> he just asked me for my opinion and for that of the community
[15:50] <ochosi> i told him my personal opinion plus said i would try to start a discussion in the community
[15:50] <ochosi> but you already started without me :p
[15:50] <Unit193> Wasn't meeee.
[15:51] <ochosi> welcome jbicha, we already started without you ;)
[15:51] <jbicha> hi
[15:51] <ochosi> (you can read the backlog somewhere on the ubuntu irc servers, you didn't miss much)
[15:54] <jbicha> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/11/06/%23xubuntu-devel.html
[15:55] <jbicha> so like engrampa instead of file-roller
[15:55] <ochosi> yeah, that's one possible route
[15:56] <jbicha> one nice part about doing that is that some people do like CSD apps so by dropping the patches, it allows users to choose file-roller if they like csd
[15:57] <jbicha> uh, file-roller was already using csd on Xubuntu 17.10
[15:58] <jbicha> responding to Unit193's comment on LP: #1719322
[15:59] <Unit193> jbicha: Yes, file-roller does.  evince appears not to.  That's a generic bug report against multiple packages.
[16:00] <Unit193> Now I remember, atril has nasty depends.
[16:01] <jbicha> there are some other apps that y'all were already shipping that have csd that don't have mate alternatives (yet?): Mines, Sudoku, Fonts
[16:02] <ochosi> i remembered there is *one* xfce app with headerbars, that's catfish
[16:02] <ochosi> (which we also ship by default)
[16:03] <jbicha> ah, I thought there was one!
[16:03] <jbicha> how much hate mail have y'all gotten for that?
[16:04] <jbicha> what are those nasty depends?
[16:05] <jbicha> sunweaver (from Debian MATE) appears to be really receptive to packaging changes that make things easier for others
[16:06] <jbicha> like I see engrampa Recommends mate-icon-theme
[16:06] <Unit193> I believe I talked to him once on it, as unfortunate as they were, needed for MATE.  I think if one went entirely mate, it wouldn't be quite so bad.  Yeah, not too fond of that. :3
[16:06] <Unit193> (And yeah, sunweaver si great.)
[16:07] <jbicha> besides mate-icon-theme, what dependencies are uncomfortable?
[16:11] <Unit193> Looking back, seems libjs-mathjax and if we ship both gnome and mate, having both *-desktop-common, you pointed out the icon theme, and at-spi2-core as a hard dep is interesting.
[16:12] <Unit193> (FWIW, just installed mate-calc, nice.  Except the history thing in gnome-calc is pretty snazzy.  The headerbar is transparent for me in the latter though. :D)
[16:13] <jbicha> why is libjs-mathjax a problem?
[16:18] <Unit193> I was trying not to propose changes (or maybe someone else was? atril was mentioned on the ml) that'd take up 50+M needlesssly as at the time we were trying to keep the ISOs at a more sane size.  (I think everyone gave up that fight.)
[16:19] <Unit193> (It's been a while, tbh.)
[16:24] <Unit193> 1.18.2-2ubuntu0, heh, interesting version number.
[16:30] <Unit193> jbicha: Thanks for telling me about engrampa, didn't know the name and hadn't looked.
[16:32] <jbicha> we need a chart to compare original app names and their forks
[16:32] <jbicha> it's taken me a while to get caja and nemo straight (nemo is the Cinnamon fork of an early Nautilus 3)
[16:32] <Unit193> Heh, yeah.  Also need to finish the transition away from gnome-icon-theme.
[16:32] <Unit193> jbicha: I hear that!
[16:33] <Unit193> I think one of the GNOME tools changed name, to further confuse things.