[00:27] <bluesabre> Added some updates to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings, feel free to add more for tomorrow's meeting
[00:28] <bluesabre> I think flocculant's chairing it, not sure
[05:58] <flocculant> 0_0
[06:03] <flocculant> I'd assumed knome was - he set it up
[09:05] <ochosi> hope i can really make it to the meeting tonight, have some unplanned stuff coming up...
[09:06] <ochosi> otherwise i have two more inputs (more thunar custom actions by default, switch to better alt-tab mode in xfwm4) that i can also add to the dev blueprint
[10:36] <ochosi> also, now that ubuntu is switching to "suru" as new icon theme, i'm wondering if we should consider switching too (maybe to a less orange version of it, but nevertheless). would make xubuntu probably feel more "at home" visually in the ubuntu crowd
[10:37] <ochosi> for thos of you who don't know it: https://snwh.org/suru
[10:38] <ochosi> knome: ^
[10:57] <ochosi> bluesabre: prepped a branch for you for the tabwin change we talked about recently
[10:57] <ochosi> https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/xubuntu-default-settings/xfwm4-tabwin-no-previews/+merge/333869
[11:27] <bluesabre> ochosi: I'm a fan of the suru theme, but I'm not convinced we can get the same coverage we have now with elementary-xfce
[11:28] <ochosi> yeah, probably not
[11:28] <ochosi> at least not immediately
[11:28] <bluesabre> oh
[11:28] <bluesabre> good morning!
[11:28] <bluesabre> :D
[11:28] <ochosi> that's why it could also be a post-LTS topic
[11:28] <ochosi> it's lunchtime here, but good morning to you too ;)
[11:28] <bluesabre> sounds good to me
[11:29] <bluesabre> ochosi: now that firefox 57 is out, was wondering if you might have time to freshen up greybird's firefox support
[11:29] <bluesabre> it doesn't look bad... just flat and boring
[11:29] <ochosi> oh, what can i freshen up?
[11:29] <ochosi> i dunno if i really have influence with plain gtk+ on firefox
[11:29] <ochosi> my guess is that would have to be a userstyle
[11:30] <ochosi> but maybe i'm wrong
[11:30] <ochosi> what are you looking for in particular?
[11:30] <bluesabre> Firefox's theme engine is using gtk3 today, so I think there might be more leverage than in the past
[11:30] <ochosi> do you have a theme that looks particularly good with the new fF?
[11:32]  * ochosi upgrades to v57
[11:32] <ochosi> wow, that looks different indeed
[11:32] <ochosi> sucks that the icons seem to be hardcoded and not theme-dependent anymore
[11:32] <ochosi> (back, fw, home, refresh)
[11:33] <bluesabre> https://i.imgur.com/trCjmvm.png maybe a slightly different color or gradient for the area with the address bar and active tab
[11:33] <bluesabre> Yeah
[11:33] <ochosi> also the tabs...
[11:33] <bluesabre> It looks awesome with a two-tone theme like numix, looking for a good single color theme to see if I can show what I mean
[11:33] <ochosi> yeah, a gradient for the toolbar would be helpful
[11:33] <ochosi> looks a little bland
[11:34] <ochosi> but the tabs are really a bit annoying...
[11:35] <bluesabre> yeah
[11:35] <bluesabre> Just thought I'd get that idea out there
[11:35] <ochosi> yeah
[11:35] <bluesabre> Make it a little nicer to look at :)
[11:35] <ochosi> good idea, just need to see what's feasible
[11:36] <ochosi> the button hover is also completely not themed anymore
[11:36] <ochosi> so hmpf, whatever gtk3 support means there
[11:36] <ochosi> looks more like they render everything themselves and dont give a rats ass anymore about how the gtk theme looks
[11:36] <bluesabre> :D
[11:36] <ochosi> looks ok with adwaita
[11:36] <ochosi> cause the style is similar
[11:37] <ochosi> but with the rest...
[11:37] <knome> meh, i prefer elementary to suru :)
[11:38] <knome> ochosi, want me to add the icon issue to agenda with your nick?
[11:41] <bluesabre> time to get ready for work, see you guys later (hopefully) at the meeting
[11:41] <knome> hf
[11:41] <bluesabre> ochosi: thanks for being interested in tweaking greybird+firefox :D
[11:43] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [xfwm4-tabwin-no-previews] r645 Disable window previews in Xfwm4's alt-tab dialog... (by Simon Steinbeiß)
[11:45] <knome> i should probably upgrade to 17.10
[11:45] <knome> but maybe tomorrow
[11:45] <ochosi> k
[11:45] <ochosi> yeah, that would be nice knome 
[11:45] <ochosi> maybe with "Investigate..."
[11:46] <knome> done
[11:47] <knome> i'm not at all a fan of the curvy/circly icons
[11:47] <knome> it kind of works on small mobile devices when you want to highlight the area that is clickable
[11:47] <knome> but on desktop it feels a bit too busy to fill all that empty space with colored blobs ;)
[11:48] <knome> Unit193, did you want any discussion to be had about that new installer?
[11:56] <ochosi> gotta take care of the little one, bbl
[12:02] <akxwi-dave> to me Suru looks just like the icons I have on my Huawei P9 phone
[12:13] <slickymasterWork> I'm with knome, regarding the change from elementary to Suru
[12:13] <slickymasterWork> uru icons look way similar to some (most) of Android icons
[12:13] <slickymasterWork> +S
[18:17] <Unit193> knome: What new isntaller?  subiquity?  Thought that was more for servers.
[18:18] <Unit193> And I'm with knome, not really a fan of the new icon theme.
[18:19] <flocculant> new installer - I missed that :p
[18:27] <genii> heh, isn'tstaller
[19:01] <Unit193> flocculant: Server installer, to replace debian-installer.
[19:02] <flocculant> oh
[21:17] <ochosi> i'll very likely be there, but maybea little late
[21:19] <knome> ok
[21:20] <knome> !team | Community meeting in 40 minutes!
[21:21] <flocculant> knome: ygm I hope
[21:24] <knome> yup
[21:36] <bluesabre> evening all
[21:36] <flocculant> hi bluesabre :)
[21:37] <bluesabre> hi flocculant 
[21:40] <flocculant> bluesabre: re parole issues - you likely to look at those during this cycle? 
[21:40] <bluesabre> flocculant: yup, and other things
[21:41] <flocculant> okey doke - didn't want to bang on about things and have you facepalming at me behind the interwebs :D
[21:42] <flocculant> the inoperative play button when it starts up is a bit annoying ;)
[21:43] <bluesabre> :)
[21:44] <flocculant> :)
[21:45] <flocculant> 2 main issues with it as far as I'm concerned, whether you think they're bugs is a different thing :D
[21:45] <flocculant> that ^^ and not being able to point mouse at 'some time during the play time' and it to move to then
[21:47]  * flocculant mostly dislikes saying things are a bit odd when he knows we've not got hundreds of people eagerly waiting for issues to fix ;)
[21:48] <flocculant> bluesabre: if I had a 'visual' thing re the pa plugin - where would you want it reporting to?
[21:49] <bluesabre> flocculant: bugzilla please
[21:49] <flocculant> okey doke
[21:56] <flocculant> xfce 14016 then
[21:57] <flocculant> ochosi with his visual hat on might have an opinion there too :p
[21:57] <bluesabre> flocculant: I agree that it looks better with an icon
[21:58] <bluesabre> removed it since ochosi asked me to
[21:58] <flocculant> yup
[21:58] <bluesabre> very tempted to add it back :D
[21:58] <flocculant> vaguely remember the discussions on that
[21:59] <flocculant> bluesabre might be pleased to know that I actually use the plugin
[21:59]  * bluesabre is very pleased
[21:59] <flocculant> \o/
[22:00] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[22:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 17 22:00:04 2017 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[22:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:00] <knome> !chair bluesabre ochosi 
[22:00] <knome> err
[22:00] <knome> #chair bluesabre ochosi 
[22:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi
[22:00] <flocculant> or
[22:00] <bluesabre> hi everyone
[22:00] <akxwi-dave> hi
[22:00] <knome> who's here for the meeting?
[22:00] <flocculant> evening peeps
[22:00] <slickymaster> o/
[22:00] <knome> ochosi said he'd be here, just a bit late
[22:01] <knome> pleia2, want to join the fun?
[22:01] <pleia2> ohi
[22:01] <slickymaster> not sure if I'll manage to make through the all meeting
[22:01] <knome> kryyyyteeeen
[22:01] <krytarik> Yes!
[22:01] <flocculant> hi pleia2 :)
[22:01] <knome> slickymaster, just don't empty the whole rum bottle..
[22:01] <knome> wow, dkessel's idle time is 67 days
[22:01] <flocculant> but don't let the guests do that either
[22:01] <slickymaster> thing is, I also want to have some before it disappears
[22:02] <flocculant> that :p
[22:02] <knome> #topic Open action items
[22:02] <slickymaster> yep
[22:02] <knome> there are none
[22:02] <bluesabre> they're all done :)
[22:02] <knome> #topic Updates and announcements
[22:02] <knome> bluesabre, staging PPA
[22:02] <knome> want to open that up or just announce?
[22:03] <bluesabre> Fine to just announce for now, I think there is/was a mail going out to the ML with more details
[22:03] <knome> oki
[22:03] <flocculant> is
[22:04] <knome> #info QA Staging PPA is now available at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging
[22:04] <knome> #info PulseAudio Plugin and Status Notifier Plugin are now included in Bionic, replacing indicator-application, indicator-sound, and xfce4-volumed 
[22:04] <knome> #info Next milestone, November 30: Feature Definition Freeze 
[22:04] <knome> #topic Discussion
[22:04] <knome> #subtopic Replace GNOME components with MATE components (bluesabre) 
[22:04] <knome> bluesabre, the floor is yours
[22:04] <bluesabre> Alrighty, so a bit of rationale
[22:05] <bluesabre> Our current GNOME components are patched in Ubuntu to replace the headerbars with normal window manager controls and menus
[22:05] <bluesabre> That requires manpower to maintain, and Ubuntu is likely to just drop the patches going forward
[22:06] <bluesabre> MATE is a DE more similar to Xfce, window manager and menus included
[22:06] <flocculant> question
[22:06] <bluesabre> Yes?
[22:06] <flocculant> is the dropping (if) down to moving from unity to gnome and not needing the patches?
[22:07] <bluesabre> Yes, since Unity needed the menus to work correctly with the global menus
[22:07] <flocculant> ok - cool, just wasn't sure
[22:07] <flocculant> sorry for interruption :)
[22:08] <bluesabre> The components I've listed, evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc, are basically drop in replacements
[22:08] <knome> headerbar == CSD?
[22:08] <bluesabre> yes
[22:08] <knome> right, so do we have CSD in other apps
[22:08] <knome> like some apps bluesabre wrote
[22:08] <bluesabre> Yes, where we have more control to make sure they work well in xfce
[22:08] <knome> right
[22:09] <bluesabre> gnome-calculator has a menu that seems to come and go when running in xfce
[22:09] <bluesabre> Currently, it does not show for me
[22:09] <bluesabre> But it would normally show in GNOME shell
[22:09] <knome> do you think this transition will happen during 18.04?
[22:09] <slickymaster> same here, bluesabre 
[22:09] <flocculant> :)
[22:09] <bluesabre> knome, I think it will
[22:09] <bluesabre> And if we are willing to move now, it will probably help their decision
[22:09] <knome> also, you say the replacements are drop in... do they share the same codebase?
[22:10] <flocculant> I'd hope if it does - then it happens soon
[22:10] <bluesabre> MATE components are basically the GNOME 2 variants, ported to GTK3 with bug fixes
[22:10] <bluesabre> So, probably 90% same
[22:10] <knome> right, so instead of using the GNOME3 components that likely get a bit more attention, we're moving to GNOME2 components that are maintained by mate people?
[22:11] <knome> i'm asking this partly because i want to know what the future for these components looks like
[22:11] <bluesabre> MATE is pretty popular and has strong development
[22:11] <knome> eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it
[22:11] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: you about?
[22:11] <bluesabre> It could easily be argued they have more eyes on them than xfce
[22:12] <flexiondotorg> o/
[22:12] <bluesabre> knome: I feel confident they will be maintained for the foreseeable future
[22:12] <flocculant> flexiondotorg will likely be able to answer that for us :)
[22:12] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: we're thinking of using some MATE components instead of GNOME, thoughts?
[22:13] <knome> flexiondotorg, or in other words, how many bottles of rum are you willing to donate to slickymaster if we do?
[22:13] <flexiondotorg> Ok. Applications or components of the DE? 
[22:13] <flocculant> apps
[22:13] <flexiondotorg> Ok
[22:13] <bluesabre> just
[22:13] <bluesabre> evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc
[22:13] <bluesabre> for now
[22:13] <flexiondotorg> Right. 
[22:14]  * slickymaster waits
[22:14] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: the question was
[22:14] <flocculant> < knome> eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it
[22:14] <flexiondotorg> Interesting. Because just today we've been discussing how we might decouple the apps from the core DE release schedule. 
[22:14] <flexiondotorg> So the apps can iterate at their own pace. 
[22:15] <flexiondotorg> We have a small but dedicated team. We've been maintaining them for years and intend to continue to do so. 
[22:15] <flexiondotorg> Might need to review how deep the deps go on some of the apps. 
[22:16] <knome> that'd be nice
[22:16] <flexiondotorg> Wouldn't want you pulling in stuff you don't require. 
[22:16] <knome> sounds great
[22:16] <flexiondotorg> mate-calc is fine. 
[22:16] <bluesabre> Those three seem pretty minimal, might need to recommends to include theme alternatives
[22:16] <bluesabre> Pretty open to packaging patches?
[22:16] <flexiondotorg> I'll check the apps you're interested in and report back in a bit. 
[22:17] <bluesabre> awesome, thanks flexiondotorg 
[22:17] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: you are a gent :)
[22:17] <flexiondotorg> Yes, more than happy to collaborate and help you guys out. 
[22:17] <flocculant> thanks 
[22:17] <knome> i think this is "big enough" that we need a vote just for the sake of it...
[22:17] <knome> so let's start it here
[22:17] <flexiondotorg> Ubuntu Kylin is based on MATE now too. So we've done this before. 
[22:17] <knome> team is 11, so we need 6 votes at minimum
[22:19] <knome> #vote OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?
[22:19] <meetingology> Please vote on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?
[22:19] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:19] <bluesabre> +1
[22:19] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
[22:19] <knome> +1
[22:19] <meetingology> +1 received from knome
[22:19] <krytarik> +1
[22:19] <meetingology> +1 received from krytarik
[22:19] <flocculant> +1
[22:19] <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
[22:19] <akxwi-dave> +1
[22:19] <meetingology> +1 received from akxwi-dave
[22:19]  * flocculant wakes up pleia2 slickymaster and krytarik 
[22:19] <knome> slickymaster, you still waiting for the rum offer or ready to vote?
[22:19] <slickymaster> +1
[22:19] <meetingology> +1 received from slickymaster
[22:19] <slickymaster> just having a sip
[22:20] <flocculant> :)
[22:20] <knome> pleia2, want to cast a vote?
[22:20] <pleia2> +0
[22:20] <meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
[22:20] <flocculant> sorry krytarik - was looking for kryten ... 
[22:20] <krytarik> lol
[22:20] <knome> :)
[22:20] <knome> #endvote
[22:20] <meetingology> Voting ended on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts?
[22:20] <meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
[22:20] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:21] <knome> #info Carrying on with the transition to MATE components
[22:21] <bluesabre> That step was painless
[22:21] <knome> yes
[22:21] <flocculant> can we have a 'if it's March when it happens - QA can say no' vote ...
[22:21] <knome> "but you only won by one vote, lulz"
[22:21] <bluesabre> flocculant: planning to make it happen asap
[22:21] <flocculant> :)
[22:21] <flocculant> bluesabre: I'd assumed so :)
[22:21] <knome> #action bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF
[22:21] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF
[22:22] <flocculant> tongue was firmly in cheek ;)
[22:22] <knome> hopping over power manager for now since ochosi is away
[22:22] <knome> #subtopic Core on tracker? (flocculant) 
[22:22] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: looking forward to working with you more :)
[22:22] <flocculant> oh sigh
[22:22] <knome> flocculant, ta-dah!
[22:22] <bluesabre> dahhhhhhhhhh
[22:22] <flocculant> so this is one simple question - then a not simple question ...
[22:22] <flocculant> first then 
[22:23] <flexiondotorg> So I was about to work on some Ubuntu MATE, but I take a look at the apps you're interested in instead and provide some initial feedback.
[22:23] <flocculant> do we add 'Core' to the tracker for Unit193, slickymaster and me to add a result 2 or 3 times? 
[22:23] <knome> flexiondotorg, great, can you send it to our mailing list? :)
[22:23] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: thanks :)
[22:23] <flexiondotorg> Given you guys are fmailiar with GTK, would you be up for offering patches and such upstream to address issue you encounter?
[22:24] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: definitely
[22:24]  * flocculant hangs on
[22:24] <bluesabre> We like it when things work well
[22:24] <knome> flexiondotorg, just go on... :)
[22:24] <knome> err, flocculant 
[22:24] <knome> silly fl's
[22:24] <flocculant> :D
[22:24]  * flocculant waits a bit longer 
[22:24] <bluesabre> flocculant: I think we should hold on including on the tracker until we can get core patches in
[22:24] <flocculant> secondly
[22:25] <bluesabre> I'm planning on reviewing them next week, and them nudging people a bunch
[22:25] <flocculant> what's the score with a real core - that we can get on tracker that builds daily? 
[22:25] <flocculant> that's the real crux of the matter imo
[22:25] <knome> i'm still +1 for the core/base thing, and i want to give all support for it
[22:25] <flocculant> iirc
[22:25] <slickymaster> same here
[22:25] <knome> bluesabre, ^ so please let me know if you need help with it
[22:25] <bluesabre> That's definitely related
[22:25] <flocculant> this is at least the second LTS we've had this discussion
[22:26] <bluesabre> yup
[22:26] <bluesabre> Going to make these not TODO this cycle
[22:26] <knome> one question is how much Unit193 is still interested in getting this forward?
[22:26] <bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh debian-cd patches: TODO
[22:26] <bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh livecd-rootfs patches: TODO
[22:26] <bluesabre> [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh ubuntu-cdimage patches: TODO
[22:26] <bluesabre> [ubuntu-cdimage] xubuntu-core: Review and merge patches: BLOCKED
[22:26] <slickymaster> :(
[22:26] <knome> i mean, i understand this is frustrating and all and if he's lost the interest
[22:26] <bluesabre> knome: I'm going to try to spearhead this a bit, Unit193 is probably (rightfully) burned out on this
[22:27] <knome> bluesabre, yes, that's a good idea, though the other issue is that soon it will all be on you
[22:27] <flocculant> knome: I think it's entirely possivlt that he's considerably fed up with the whole thing - the doing it 'officially' thing that is
[22:27] <ochosi> o/
[22:27] <flocculant> s/possible
[22:27] <knome> hello ochosi 
[22:27] <ochosi> sry i'm late
[22:27] <flocculant> np
[22:27] <ochosi> i'll try to catch up
[22:27] <knome> flocculant, yes, indeed, which is why i'm bringing up this question
[22:27] <flocculant> ochosi: catch up just before the meeting started ...
[22:28] <flocculant> knome: 
[22:28] <bluesabre> knome: once the patches are in, there should be minimal maintenance required after the fact... hopefully I can return it to krytarik  and Unit193 at that point
[22:28] <knome> and in case we do get progressing, is he willing to pick it back up then
[22:28] <knome> sure
[22:28] <flocculant> last time 'we' spoke he was less politely pissed off 
[22:28] <flocculant> not wanting to put words in someone else's tongue
[22:28] <knome> i'm aware
[22:29] <bluesabre> flocculant: yeah, no need :)
[22:29] <flocculant> and I completely agree with it tbh
[22:29] <flexiondotorg> So mate-calc. From a deps point of view no issues.
[22:29] <flocculant> frankly I think we've just been given the runaround by canonical people
[22:29] <flexiondotorg> However, the .desktop file Name is "MATE Calculator". 
[22:29] <flocculant> we're perhaps too damn polite
[22:30] <knome> i don't know how CC even works nowadays, but maybe we should just contact them if nothing happens
[22:30]  * flocculant winds his neck in a bit 
[22:30] <knome> and get on with it
[22:30] <flexiondotorg> I've not discussed this with the MATE team, but I've been wanting to drop the MATE prefixes on some of the app names. 
[22:30] <flexiondotorg> Perhaps now is the time :-)
[22:30] <knome> from what i gathered, one of the issues is "core" vs. "base"
[22:30] <knome> though i've told them we'll go with "base" if that's really the only issue...
[22:30] <flocculant> flexiondotorg turns out to be really useful tonight :D
[22:30] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: that shouldn't be an issue, but cool if that were to happen
[22:31] <knome> flexiondotorg, +1 for dropping MATE prefixes, me like
[22:31] <bluesabre> flocculant: we're seeing the other benefit of using MATE bits, we're a lot closer to the MATE folks in general
[22:31] <flexiondotorg> knome: I'm on the CC. We're all new this time round. If you have questions feel free to ask.
[22:31] <flocculant> can we give flexiondotorg a brief resume of the core thing - as he's got his CC hat on
[22:31] <knome> probably better leave that to outside the meeting
[22:31] <bluesabre> yeah
[22:31] <flocculant> why?
[22:31] <flocculant> time?
[22:31] <knome> that too
[22:32] <flexiondotorg> I remember the "core thing" I prepared patches for Xubuntu and Ubuntu MATE ages ago.
[22:32] <flocculant> ok - let's shelve it for a bit, but not a very long bit :D
[22:32] <knome> flocculant, indeed not
[22:32] <flocculant> the discussion
[22:32] <slickymaster> yep
[22:32] <knome> anything else on core for the meeting?
[22:33] <flocculant> I'll hold fire on tracker for the moment then
[22:33] <knome> and oh - yes
[22:33] <bluesabre> Just gotta refresh patches and then take another stab at it
[22:33] <flexiondotorg> Pluma looks all fine. No issues IMO.
[22:33] <knome> i don't mind if core is on tracker nevertheless
[22:33] <knome> flexiondotorg, pluma? :P
[22:33] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: yeah, we won't be needing pluma though :)
[22:33] <flocculant> knome: I don't want to confuse it
[22:33] <flexiondotorg> The text editor from MATE.
[22:33] <ochosi> k, if i may add a small comment to the s/gnome/mate/ vote (even though the motion has already passed), i would look at each component separately and check if there are any important features we'd be missing
[22:33] <flocculant> last cycle - it ended up being rebuilt somehow
[22:34] <ochosi> it's not like the gnome components haven't been developed since gtk3 was started
[22:34] <knome> flocculant, i understand
[22:34] <flexiondotorg> Oh, Pluma wasn't on the list :-)
[22:34] <knome> ochosi, right, but tbh what features would there be for those three apps that we needed really?
[22:34] <flocculant> :)
[22:34] <bluesabre> ochosi: indeed, but the apps we're interested in aren't super feature full... calc, pdf, and archive
[22:35] <bluesabre> but noted :)
[22:35] <knome> yes, if their basic functions work, they are perfect
[22:35] <knome> maybe do a mail about it when they've landed
[22:35] <knome> to run some checking
[22:35] <bluesabre> yup
[22:35] <knome> or even do it before if people are willing
[22:35] <bluesabre> Some config and shortcuts to be updated
[22:35] <ochosi> dunno, with evince i'd be taking a closer look (at least to me that's a VIA - very important app)
[22:35] <flocculant> we can do a testing call when they land
[22:36] <knome> but it... reads pdf? :D
[22:36] <bluesabre> ochosi: could I have you test any special features there you depend on?
[22:36] <flexiondotorg> So Engrampa (archive manager) should be fine.
[22:36] <flexiondotorg> Pulls in extension library for Caja (file manager) but that is only 18Kb.
[22:36] <knome> OMZG
[22:36] <knome> :P
[22:37] <knome> does it *really* need it though?
[22:37] <flocculant> bluesabre: could we land them in stages? 
[22:37] <knome> i think if we want "stages", then just first tell people to install them from the repo
[22:37] <knome> and if nothing is wrong for a while, change the seed
[22:37] <flocculant> or would you rather just jfdi?
[22:38] <flexiondotorg> knome: For Xubuntu no. So we could have an or in the Recommends: to reference an something from XFCE :-)
[22:38] <bluesabre> flocculant: we could, what sort of staging schedule would you want?
[22:38] <slickymaster> flocculant, akxwi-dave and can each pick one and test them
[22:38] <bluesabre> I'm more inclined to just do it all at once so I don't go missing for too long :D
[22:38] <flocculant> knome: then we don't know if what people have locally are affecting them?
[22:38] <flexiondotorg> Would be a good idea to install these one at a time in a clean Xubuntu VM and see what gets pulled in.
[22:38] <knome> meh :)
[22:38] <flocculant> bluesabre: jfdi then :)
[22:38] <akxwi-dave> lol
[22:39] <ochosi> flexiondotorg: i think for xfce you don't need any recommends for engrampa (weird gerontophile name btw ;))
[22:39] <flocculant> I can do that in a vm tomorrow
[22:39] <knome> the change in seed is a small one, it's fast to revert too
[22:39] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: Yeah, I'll check it out and see if anything surprising comes in
[22:39] <bluesabre> or flocculant :)
[22:39] <flocculant> :D
[22:39] <knome> anything surprising or flocculant?
[22:39] <bluesabre> flocculant is surprising
[22:39] <knome> i would definitely consider flocculant in my app surprising
[22:39] <flocculant> both ... 
[22:39] <knome> anyway
[22:39] <flocculant> ha ha ha 
[22:39] <ochosi> engrampa also pulls in caja-common
[22:40] <knome> can we move on from the core (clearly) discussion?
[22:40] <ochosi> not just libcaja-extension1
[22:40] <flocculant> yep
[22:40] <ochosi> plus mate-icon-theme...
[22:40] <bluesabre> knome: go for it
[22:40] <knome> #subtopic Xfce Power Manager 1.6.x (bluesabre, ochosi) 
[22:40] <bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, we'd suggest an alt there
[22:40] <bluesabre> xfpm!
[22:40] <bluesabre> :D
[22:40] <ochosi> mkay
[22:40] <ochosi> so i've been cleaning up bugzilla quite a bit for 1.6 lately
[22:40] <knome> bluesabre, ochosi: btw, you're both chairs too... just saying
[22:40] <ochosi> plus ali has started to help out
[22:41] <flexiondotorg> So Atril (doc viewer) and Engrampa (archive manager) both pull in libcaja-extension1
[22:41] <ochosi> i've been using 1.6 for a long time already and i don't see any 1.6/gtk3 specific breakage
[22:41] <bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, I've been using it forever
[22:41] <ochosi> there are no functional differences, apart from a few 1.6 features
[22:41] <flexiondotorg> That is the 18Kb library for exposing their plugins to Caja.
[22:41] <ochosi> e.g. panel-plugin properties dialog
[22:42] <bluesabre> But we've not uploaded it... so I wonder if there is any reason to be wary of 1.6 over 1.4?
[22:42] <flexiondotorg> bluesabre: Are you interested in Eye of MATE (image viewer)?
[22:42] <knome> flexiondotorg, nope
[22:42] <flexiondotorg> Cool.
[22:42] <ochosi> the difference was the UPower version initially
[22:42] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: nope, we have a good option there already
[22:42] <ochosi> and the symbolic icons, but both is a win imo
[22:42] <slickymaster> ristretto
[22:42] <bluesabre> ochosi: I agree
[22:42] <ochosi> one thing that ppl on desktop systems will notice however is the battery-missing icon that is currently showing
[22:42] <knome> bluesabre, ochosi: do you need any feedback from others? :D
[22:43] <flocculant> hard for me to test xfpm - desktop(s) > mains works ... tick
[22:43] <ochosi> but that is something we can fix during this cycle
[22:43] <knome> or could you have discussed this in a non-meeting environment
[22:43] <ochosi> i've already looked a little
[22:43] <flexiondotorg> Well, other than the name of MATE Calculator I see no reason why mate-calc, engrampa and artil can't be seeded in Xubuntu.
[22:43] <ochosi> no, i just wanted to inform everyone of the status quo from my pov
[22:43] <flocculant> ochosi: don't see the icon 
[22:43] <bluesabre> knome: I added it since it was the only thing on our "include maybe" list and I wanted to know if anybody had reasons to avoid it
[22:43] <flexiondotorg> Just a bit of history on Atril, forked from Evince.
[22:43] <ochosi> flocculant: then you likely use 1.4?
[22:44] <flocculant> 1.6.0+git-0~2234~ubu 
[22:44] <flocculant> says dpkg
[22:44] <flexiondotorg> Some years a GSoC student added ePub support to Atril. It was not a good job :-(
[22:44] <ochosi> flocculant: ah, ok. so what icon do you see?
[22:44] <flexiondotorg> We struggled with it ever since, basically getting it stable and working.
[22:44]  * ochosi doesn't have a desktop to test this...
[22:45] <flexiondotorg> We have debated dropping ePub support. 
[22:45] <flocculant> ochosi: none - just looking to see if I lost it 
[22:45] <knome> flexiondotorg, no worries from our side if you drop it, i'd say
[22:45] <flexiondotorg> But any help to strighten out the ePub implementation would be welcome.
[22:45] <flocculant> ochosi: ok - on desktoo I see battery with an X
[22:45] <knome> bluesabre, ochosi: you fancy e-books?
[22:45] <flexiondotorg> knome: OK, good to know that is not a deal breaker.
[22:45] <ochosi> knome: not really
[22:46] <knome> nudge nudge, wink wink
[22:46] <flocculant> I do e-books, not on the pc though :D
[22:46] <ochosi> flocculant: yeah, that is what i would like to improve and the only "regression"
[22:46] <bluesabre> knome: I fancy them, on my nook
[22:46] <bluesabre> Could test it though
[22:46] <flexiondotorg> I discuss the mate-calc name change with the team in the coming days.
[22:46] <knome> well i think they already know it's bad ;)
[22:46] <bluesabre> :D
[22:46] <bluesabre> I'll avoid it then
[22:46] <bluesabre> ;')
[22:46] <knome> so i was kind of wondering if you were fancying a repair work
[22:47] <knome> ochosi, i agree on the icon issue on desktop; that needs to be sorted out
[22:47] <flocculant> ochosi: if nothing an AC instead of a battery would make more sense - though really, an icon showing up if not AC would be btter UI guess
[22:47] <bluesabre> knome, flexiondotorg, I might be willing to take a look at some point
[22:47] <flexiondotorg> Right, I think that is all can do right now.
[22:47] <knome> :)
[22:47] <flexiondotorg> Ping me if you need anything :-)
[22:47] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: thanks for being so responsive and helpful :)
[22:47] <knome> flexiondotorg, we will, thanks a bunch!
[22:47] <flexiondotorg> bluesabre: My pleasure.
[22:48] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: thanks for looking at that :)
[22:48] <slickymaster> thanks flexiondotorg 
[22:48] <knome> so... what's the thing with xfpm?
[22:48] <knome> do we want a vote on it?
[22:48] <knome> or just go forward?
[22:48] <ochosi> knome, flocculant: the difference between 1.4 and 1.6 in that respect is that we now rely on upower to supply the icon (which is nice because it means all icon themes work properly with xfpm), and battery-missing is what upower reports. doesn't mean we can't fix that though
[22:48] <flocculant> mmm
[22:48] <knome> ochosi, i know, i've discussed it with you :)
[22:48] <bluesabre> knome, ochosi, I think we should plan to include it... bug reports to 1.6 are probably going to get more attention than 1.4
[22:49] <flocculant> I mean logically enough I know the battery is missing - I'd be concerned it it wasn't :D
[22:49] <knome> in the worst case we can include a more neutral icon for battery-missing
[22:49] <ochosi> yeah
[22:49] <knome> for our icon theme... whatever that might be... :P
[22:49] <ochosi> i would also say we should include that
[22:49] <ochosi> that being 1.6
[22:49] <knome> ack it with QA :P
[22:49] <ochosi> there are also no 1.6 specific bug reports if i'm honest on bugzilla
[22:50] <knome> then i'll give my +1 with my council hat
[22:50] <bluesabre> flocculant: say "go for it"
[22:50] <ochosi> plus i don't plan on doing 1.4 maintenance
[22:50] <flocculant> I can't in all honestly do that bluesabre 
[22:50] <bluesabre> :D
[22:50] <flocculant> today is a jfdi day
[22:50] <bluesabre> that's fair
[22:50] <bluesabre> I respect that
[22:50] <flocculant> :)
[22:50] <knome> ok, so
[22:50] <akxwi-dave> :-)
[22:50] <ochosi> so a vote or do we just move on?
[22:51] <flocculant> I do check bugzilla as well as lp
[22:51] <knome> #action bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6
[22:51] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre and ochosi to get on with it and include xfpm 1.6
[22:51] <knome> anything else?
[22:51] <flocculant> a point
[22:51] <knome> .
[22:51] <knome> there
[22:51] <ochosi> that's a dot.
[22:51] <knome> 1
[22:51] <knome> ^ that's a point in the eurovision song contest
[22:51] <knome> from australia.
[22:51] <slickymaster> buh
[22:51] <flocculant> if QA find that we're seeing a whole slew of issues - can we revert 
[22:51] <bluesabre> flocculant: we can
[22:51] <ochosi> yup
[22:52] <ochosi> i would say that would be a very logical consequence
[22:52] <ochosi> of any of the changes
[22:52] <knome> well i think if it fails we should hop to xfpm 1.8...
[22:52] <knome> i hope it's at least WIP at that point...
[22:52] <knome> ;)=
[22:52] <flocculant> I'm just remembering my passowrd issue with non-US and the time it took to be listened to ...
[22:52] <knome> so anything else?
[22:52] <flocculant> for xfpm?
[22:52] <slickymaster> nothing here
[22:53] <bluesabre> ochosi: will help with maint there as needed
[22:53] <knome> for xfpm
[22:53] <flocculant> not from me
[22:53] <knome> #subtopic Investigate replacing elementary-xfce with Suru (ochosi) 
[22:53] <bluesabre> knome: think we're done with the xfpm chat, this conversation is what I hoped for
[22:53] <bluesabre> :D
[22:53] <flocculant> ochosi bluesabre - if you want me to git stuff to check AC on xfpm - shout
[22:53] <knome> from the discussion in here and -offtopic today, i'd say this is not going to happen...
[22:53] <ochosi> right, that was just an idea i had when i read that suru was going to be the next ubuntu icon theme
[22:53] <ochosi> flocculant: will definitely do! thanks!
[22:53] <flocculant> np
[22:53] <knome> the basic gist is "it's too android-like"
[22:53] <knome> from several people
[22:54] <ochosi> yeah, i read that too
[22:54] <flocculant> ochosi: seen the 'hub' stuff? 
[22:54] <ochosi> i really just wanted to discuss it
[22:54] <flocculant> https://community.ubuntu.com/t/icon-theme-discussions/1925
[22:54] <knome> i appreciate trying to blend in with ubuntu more, but i think that's a bit drastic :)
[22:54] <ochosi> the idea was mostly to make us more ubuntu-ish again
[22:54] <ochosi> but i don't mind if we stick with the tried and true
[22:55] <bluesabre> I think we should consider it (or something else) post-18.04... not enough time in 1 cycle to get the themes (lo included) synced up
[22:55]  * slickymaster kind of likes the fact that we <ren't ochosi 
[22:55] <ochosi> knome: it would have been a blue-colored version anyway
[22:55] <ochosi> bluesabre: ouch, libreoffice... that would also need some love btw...
[22:55] <flocculant> I'm pretty much an ellipsish sqircle sort of guy - dont mind what we do
[22:55] <knome> ochosi, that doesn't really help with the android-likeyness :)
[22:55] <bluesabre> ochosi: yeah, was planning to send some bug reports your way soon there
[22:55] <flocculant> but it might be useful to check out the hub icon chats
[22:56] <knome> flocculant, ack
[22:56] <bluesabre> yes
[22:56] <bluesabre> definitely some important chats happening on the community hub
[22:56] <knome> so... anything else from this?
[22:56] <knome> on
[22:56] <knome> this
[22:56] <knome> too
[22:56] <flocculant> that snhw peep is there talking
[22:56] <flocculant> snwh
[22:57] <ochosi> snwh is a good designer, i like his gtk+ themes and also most of his icon themes
[22:57] <bluesabre> yeah, cool guy, good stuff
[22:57] <ochosi> and he's contributing to elementary also a lot
[22:57] <ochosi> so we benefit from his doings either way ;)
[22:57] <flocculant> wasn't sure if you'd noticed the hub chat - so thought I'd point you there
[22:57] <knome> i don't hate the stuff, it's just fine, but i don't think it's the fit for xubuntu
[22:57] <flocculant> shrug
[22:57] <flexiondotorg> Just had a thought, will Ubuntu Studio be following your lead with regard to app selection?
[22:58] <ochosi> i guess i could use some help with elementary-xfce too, it needs more upstream-pulling sometimes (if anyone here wants to help out)
[22:58] <knome> flexiondotorg, that's a good question you need to ask the US devs
[22:58] <flocculant> knome: on the other hand - xubuntu 6 years ago looked like old
[22:58] <flocculant> so - progress is good sometimes :)
[22:58] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: possibly, they tend to stay pretty well synced to our changes
[22:58] <knome> flocculant, sure
[22:58] <knome> i'm doing a quick switch...
[22:59] <knome> #subtopic Xubuntu desktop for 18.04
[22:59] <knome> let's talk this a bit more broadly
[22:59] <bluesabre> sure
[22:59] <flexiondotorg> knome: OK, will do when you're futher along with this. I wondered if they just based on your platform decisions.
[22:59] <knome> flexiondotorg, they often have, but it's not automatic
[22:59] <flexiondotorg> OK
[22:59] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: up to now - they take xubuntu and add some stuff
[22:59] <knome> i guess one of the bigger questions is our panel
[23:00] <knome> do we want to keep it where it is?
[23:00] <knome> and how it is?
[23:00] <ochosi> dunno, i haven't heard that many complaints about it
[23:00] <knome> except there was just that thread in the ML
[23:00] <knome> not really a complaint as is, but a suggestion to move it to the bottom
[23:00] <slickymaster> just the one in the m/l
[23:00] <ochosi> every now and then there is such a thread tbh
[23:00] <flocculant> oh panel
[23:01] <flocculant> well
[23:01] <knome> yes, but that kind of suggests something
[23:01] <knome> that it comes up
[23:01] <ochosi> and it probably would also be there if the panel were at the bottom
[23:01] <flocculant> that's where mine is :D
[23:01] <knome> how many here have the panel at the top?
[23:01] <ochosi> o/
[23:01] <bluesabre> o/
[23:01] <krytarik> o/
[23:01] <slickymaster> o/
[23:01] <flocculant> ochosi: indeed - we'd get some move it to the top people
[23:01] <knome> haha, ok
[23:01] <flocculant> woohoo  
[23:01] <knome> fair enough then
[23:01] <flocculant> - odd one out :p
[23:01] <bluesabre> :D
[23:01] <slickymaster> :)
[23:01] <knome> i have the panel at the bottom too
[23:02] <flocculant> you 4 would complain :D
[23:02] <knome> the next question is if we want to keep it as is
[23:02] <flocculant> nope
[23:02] <ochosi> i think we should advertise xfpanel-switch more
[23:02] <ochosi> (in any case)
[23:02] <slickymaster> agree ochosi 
[23:02] <ochosi> or improve it
[23:02] <knome> one suggestion from me is... make it fully transparent
[23:02] <flocculant> one from me is stop expanding the thing
[23:02] <ochosi> that'll likely suck for a11y
[23:02] <knome> not if the wallpaper is designed for that
[23:02] <flocculant> ochosi: ack
[23:02] <slickymaster> mine is fully transparent, knome 
[23:02] <knome> and hey, we can do that
[23:03] <ochosi> knome: wallpaper sure, but icons are not under our control
[23:03] <flocculant> slickymaster: do you needf a11y?
[23:03] <bluesabre> knome: but we won't know if we succeeded until the day before UIF ;)
[23:03] <knome> bluesabre, hah!
[23:03] <ochosi> LOL
[23:03] <knome> spikey
[23:03] <ochosi> well played, sean
[23:03] <flocculant> I've had a transparent panel - and had 2 or 3 things not be
[23:04] <knome> just a thought
[23:04] <knome> we could play with the transparency without making it completely transparent too
[23:04] <slickymaster> yep
[23:04] <knome> another thought is to make it not 100%
[23:04] <knome> and center it
[23:04] <knome> i use the panel this way, and there's one reason for this
[23:05] <knome> when i have maximized windows, i still always have two corners to right-click on the desktop
[23:05] <knome> for me that opens the apps menu
[23:05] <ochosi> you like that it's width changes all the time..?
[23:05]  * flocculant says knome's mouse in middle of screen most
[23:05] <knome> i know that's not the default setting
[23:05] <ochosi> for apps menu i use the kb shortcut
[23:05] <knome> ochosi, it doesn't
[23:05] <knome> ochosi, only that one pixel, but it does it even if it's 100% wide and that bug was fixed :P
[23:06] <knome> i'd also say it looks a bit more modern if the panel isn't 100%
[23:06] <knome> again - just a thought for you to think about
[23:06] <bluesabre> I'm generally not a fan of a non-100% panel
[23:06] <slickymaster> me neither
[23:07] <flocculant> this is just a personal preference
[23:07] <ochosi> hmm, more modern. in what sense?
[23:07] <flocculant> I hate a 100% panle
[23:07] <bluesabre> But I don't know if there's really a good way to determine panel location defaults, it's all very personal in nature
[23:07] <knome> ochosi, just the looks
[23:07] <ochosi> bluesabre: +1
[23:07] <knome> sure
[23:07] <flocculant> irssi is bottom on half screen at the right - so I can see active channels
[23:07] <knome> we just want sane defaults
[23:08] <knome> so anybody else wants to provoke any thoughts?
[23:08] <knome> or do we just keep everything as is?
[23:08] <bluesabre> My personal suggestion would be leave it as is
[23:08] <flocculant> make panle a sidebar
[23:09] <bluesabre> And improve customization discoverability
[23:09] <bluesabre> Somehow
[23:09] <flocculant> I'd maybe think about the window list plugin defaults
[23:09] <knome> bluesabre, pink flashing lights?
[23:10] <bluesabre> flocculant: changes there?
[23:10] <ochosi> i'd agree with flocculant in terms of discussing plugin settings, may end up being more productive
[23:10] <knome> flocculant, right... what are our defaults there anyway?
[23:10] <flocculant> knome: make it enormous - then smaller as apps open
[23:10] <knome> ochosi, is this the "tease knome" evening?
[23:10] <flocculant> maybe use one of the other task plugins? 
[23:11] <flocculant> bluesabre: ^^
[23:11] <flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/xPqWI4K.png
[23:12] <knome> flocculant, would you like to make a more detailed proposal on that for the ML to start the discussion?
[23:12] <flocculant> is what I have - no names, and it's not enormous
[23:12] <bluesabre> flocculant: not really any better options... other than a dock application that has a few other features
[23:12] <ochosi> there's only this unmaintained plugin that tries to be a dock...
[23:13] <ochosi> taskbar-plugin iirc
[23:13] <ochosi> which would be nice, if it worked properly
[23:13] <flocculant> bluesabre: not wanting to go there - what we have is better (imo) than the bigh top panel and ' dock panel' we had ~12.04 ish
[23:13] <bluesabre> flocculant: yeah
[23:13] <flocculant> knome: I can yes
[23:14] <bluesabre> I think what we have is pretty good, and definitely an acceptable default
[23:14] <flocculant> yea - I'm not complaining as such
[23:14] <bluesabre> Folks are always going to prefer top/bottom... usually no other reason than what they've gotten used to
[23:14] <flocculant> :)
[23:15] <bluesabre> Side panel people are different, but we're not going to be judgemental ;)
[23:15] <ochosi> i thought you wanted to replace window-buttons plugin with something else, like something that allows for app pinning
[23:15] <flexiondotorg> Umm, just seen this ;-)
[23:15] <flexiondotorg> https://community.ubuntu.com/t/suggestion-use-mate-applications-in-the-eventual-unity-7-flavor-of-ubuntu-18-04/1949
[23:15] <flocculant> I've had panel on 3 sides at different times - then did some software thing which monitored where mouse pointer spent time
[23:15] <flocculant> then moved panel and it worked
[23:16] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: yea - saw that too ;)
[23:16] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: seems like you're going to have a lot more friends soon
[23:16] <slickymaster> well guys, I have to go now
[23:16] <flexiondotorg> Welcome one and welcome all!
[23:16] <slickymaster> tty tomorrow
[23:16] <flexiondotorg> gn slickymaster 
[23:16] <bluesabre> seeya sl
[23:16] <bluesabre> slickymaster
[23:16] <knome> ok, so
[23:17] <flocculant> night slickymaster 
[23:17] <knome> #action flocculant to send a proposal on improving panel configuration
[23:17] <meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to send a proposal on improving panel configuration
[23:17] <ochosi> night slickymaster 
[23:17] <knome> anything else?
[23:17] <knome> nighty slickymaster 
[23:17] <flexiondotorg> bluesabre: Do you mind if I reference Xubuntu in that post on the Community Hub?
[23:17] <flocculant> flexiondotorg: doubt it :p
[23:17] <flocculant> and I'll watch it :p
[23:17] <bluesabre> flexiondotorg: don't mind at all
[23:18] <flexiondotorg> I don't want to steal anyones thunder.
[23:18] <flexiondotorg> bluesabre flocculant Thanks.
[23:18] <flocculant> np
[23:18] <bluesabre> knome: think we're good for the panel discussion
[23:18] <ochosi> +1
[23:18] <knome> and other desktop-related ones too?
[23:18] <flocculant> quick one
[23:18] <knome> sure
[23:18] <bluesabre> or not :)
[23:18] <ochosi> although it's good to have that panel discussion every once in a while
[23:18] <flocculant> do we want to keep this to ml?
[23:19] <knome> compared to...?
[23:19] <flocculant> I understand the cons of going to talk to people out there ... 
[23:19] <flocculant> but is it worth the effort?
[23:20] <bluesabre> Seems like it could be a can of worms
[23:20] <flocculant> I can at least do one of the social things
[23:20] <flocculant> yea - but it IS our can of worms ;)
[23:20] <flocculant> is this something we can land late?
[23:20] <knome> if we want to reach out, then i think it would better be a poll of some sort with some thoughts done beforehand
[23:21] <flocculant> maybe do a ml - then reach out - then change?
[23:21] <flocculant> mmm
[23:21] <knome> rather than "tell us what you use"
[23:21] <bluesabre> flocculant: no later than UI Freeze, so docs and screenshots could be updated in time for release
[23:21] <knome> because as we just proved here, people really like different things
[23:21] <flocculant> knome: how about you and I do a brainstorm and poll choice once we've got some 'data' ?
[23:22] <flocculant> bluesabre: ack
[23:22] <knome> bluesabre, except that we do not have any screenshots or big mentions in docs about these kind of things - for this reason ;)
[23:22] <knome> but yes, this should land for UIF
[23:22] <knome> in any case...
[23:22] <flocculant> that's March :p
[23:22] <knome> flocculant, related: there was a poll on the xfce twitter about vertical panels specifically
[23:23] <flocculant> don't twitter so didn't see it
[23:23] <knome> that's not really usable here, but looking at that i have an idea what kind of replies we might get
[23:23] <flocculant> lets ml - then regroup
[23:23] <knome> yup
[23:23] <knome> i can help with the drafting if we decide to do that
[23:23] <knome> and the social media of course
[23:23] <flocculant> give it an arbitrary time scale
[23:23] <knome> 2 weeks 
[23:23] <knome> :P
[23:24] <flocculant> decmeber 31st sounds good to me :D
[23:24] <knome> that's fine as well
[23:24] <bluesabre> Sounds like a good target
[23:24] <knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
[23:24] <flocculant> okey doke
[23:24] <flocculant> hjang on buddy
[23:24] <knome> yeeees?
[23:24] <knome> :)
[23:24] <flocculant> AOB first ...
[23:24] <knome> wasn't on the agenda
[23:25] <flocculant> AOB should always be on an agenda ... 
[23:25] <knome> ;)
[23:25] <flocculant> :p
[23:25] <flocculant> what's going on with the community arty stuff?
[23:25] <knome> #topic Other discussions
[23:25]  * flocculant opens the other can of worms
[23:26] <knome> we haven't agreed on the terms on the ML thread
[23:26] <knome> i think i'll repoke that thread soonish
[23:26] <bluesabre> Good idea
[23:26] <knome> #action knome to wake up the discussion about the community wallpaper contest
[23:26] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to wake up the discussion about the community wallpaper contest
[23:26] <knome> starting the actual contest takes like 5 minutes
[23:26] <flocculant> yup
[23:26] <knome> so once we are in agreement...
[23:26] <knome> anything else?
[23:26] <bluesabre> Nothing from me
[23:27] <flocculant> nope - just going to go and get all despondent about that now :p
[23:27] <knome> :P
[23:27] <knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
[23:27] <knome> we'll pretend i was pleia2 
[23:27] <knome> next up is akxwi-dave and flocculant 
[23:27] <knome> and their clown show
[23:27] <flocculant> sigh
[23:27] <knome> i mean
[23:27] <knome> the QA show
[23:27] <knome> ;)
[23:28] <knome> thanks everybody
[23:28] <ochosi> thanks!
[23:28] <bluesabre> and all the BAM and POW sound effects
[23:28] <knome> one of those longer meetings today then
[23:28] <knome> bluesabre, don't forget the farty effects!
[23:28] <knome> #endmeeting
[23:28] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 17 23:28:31 2017 UTC.  
[23:28] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-11-17-22.00.moin.txt
[23:28] <flocculant> I think that we should pretend that first meeting is the noisiest council member - then the other 2 - and THEN the rest can take turns
[23:28] <bluesabre> Pretty good though
[23:28] <bluesabre> We got things done
[23:28] <flocculant> yup
[23:28] <bluesabre> Thanks everybody
[23:28] <ochosi> i think it's more: we decided to get things done
[23:28] <bluesabre> Thanks knome for chairing
[23:28] <knome> np
[23:28] <ochosi> most of those things still need doing ;)
[23:29] <bluesabre> oh
[23:29] <flocculant> useful to have flex be around at that time
[23:29] <bluesabre> dang
[23:29] <bluesabre> :'(
[23:29] <bluesabre> definitely
[23:29] <flocculant> saved a bunch of time there
[23:30] <bluesabre> dinner time, bbl
[23:30] <pleia2> slackin' pleia2 
[23:30] <knome> minutes are up
[23:30] <flocculant> ochosi: you about for 2 minutes for me to hassle you about xfce 14016
[23:31] <ochosi> sure
[23:31] <flocculant> bluesabre agrees with me :p
[23:31] <flocculant> while he's eating :D
[23:31] <flocculant> pleia2: I'm sure you're jet lagged and the meeting doesn't start for days :p
[23:32] <pleia2> flocculant: idk what year it is :(
[23:32] <bluesabre> pleia2: it's 2024 and xfce 4.14 was just released
[23:33] <pleia2> and we moved the whisker of the mouse in the logo 2mm?
[23:33] <knome> gosh no
[23:33] <knome> not that much
[23:33] <pleia2> :)
[23:33] <knome> :)
[23:33] <ochosi> flocculant: what about moving the icon just one row up?
[23:33] <ochosi> what i didn't like is having two icosn
[23:33] <ochosi> or having the icon span both rows
[23:34] <ochosi> and making it larger again (although i like the current size
[23:34] <ochosi> )
[23:34] <flocculant> ochosi: I ahve no icon for output at all
[23:34] <flocculant> oh ]
[23:34] <ochosi> i know, but the row below has a corresponding icon
[23:34] <flocculant> I see what you mean there
[23:35] <flocculant> ok
[23:36] <flocculant> so thinking out of the box from a not dev pov - why can the output(s) and be along side the volume control? 
[23:37] <flocculant> I'd find it perfectly logical to see my DAC next to the vol slider
[23:37] <flocculant> andif I had a mic - that level control next to it's 'name'
[23:37] <ochosi> i think that's just a matter of: where and how do you trigger the submenu for selecting the output?
[23:38] <ochosi> also, having name and slider in one row would result in either a very short slider or a very ellipsized name
[23:39] <flocculant> ochosi: not quite what I mean
[23:39] <ochosi> wanna draw it quickly?
[23:39]  * flocculant will do one of his famous hand scribbled and scanned things
[23:39] <flocculant> ha ha ha 
[23:39] <ochosi> kewl
[23:40] <knome> oh my
[23:40] <knome> :P
[23:43] <flocculant> knome: ochosi and I have discovered that the easiest way for us is me to scribble :p
[23:44] <knome> haha
[23:45] <flocculant> ochosi: https://imgur.com/qmAzdP9
[23:46] <ochosi> so you would just merge the submenu into the same row
[23:46] <flocculant> eg lose the output and input sections - have the switches next to the slider for them
[23:46] <ochosi> which would mean you wouldn't be able to read the name of the selected output at one glance though
[23:46] <ochosi> it could be tried, but not sure/sold yet ;)
[23:46] <ochosi> gotta get some sleep
[23:46] <flocculant> I can't now
[23:46] <knome> nighty ochosi :)
[23:46] <flocculant> yup
[23:47] <flocculant> night ochosi 
[23:47] <ochosi> but let's continue to discuss it, i understand the current solution may not be ideal
[23:47] <flocculant> I'll hang around a while yet see if Sean comes back
[23:47] <flocculant> yup
[23:48] <flocculant> simple alternative is of course add icons back - maybe choose a different one, so they don't repeat
[23:49] <bluesabre> flocculant: still around, hungy, but waiting it seems
[23:49] <flocculant> hah
[23:50] <flocculant> so that imgur scribble - lose the output/input sections - have the switches alongside slider
[23:51] <flocculant> or - add icons, just work out a different one to lose ochosi's argument on duplication
[23:51] <bluesabre> Alrighty, interesting idea
[23:51] <bluesabre> I'll try each of them and let you know
[23:51] <flocculant> of course I don't know what's achievable 
[23:52] <flocculant> bluesabre: if it's some git thing - point me to it and I'll check it here with different hardware 
[23:52] <bluesabre> flocculant: sure thing
[23:52] <flocculant> and probably different music apps :D
[23:53] <flocculant> this is that itch - which I can't scratch :p
[23:53] <knome> uh oh
[23:53] <flocculant> knome: :D
[23:53] <knome> :)
[23:54] <flocculant> bluesabre: also iof you start playuing with playlist support - same deal
[23:55] <bluesabre> flocculant: basically send any updates your way for testing
[23:55] <flocculant> bluesabre: for sure 
[23:55] <flocculant> frankyl - I'll test anything :D
[23:59] <flocculant> bluesabre: as long as I've got the git url to start with I can go for it
[23:59] <flocculant> I do that with the mpd frontend I use