[00:27] Added some updates to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings, feel free to add more for tomorrow's meeting [00:28] I think flocculant's chairing it, not sure [05:58] 0_0 [06:03] I'd assumed knome was - he set it up [09:05] hope i can really make it to the meeting tonight, have some unplanned stuff coming up... [09:06] otherwise i have two more inputs (more thunar custom actions by default, switch to better alt-tab mode in xfwm4) that i can also add to the dev blueprint [10:36] also, now that ubuntu is switching to "suru" as new icon theme, i'm wondering if we should consider switching too (maybe to a less orange version of it, but nevertheless). would make xubuntu probably feel more "at home" visually in the ubuntu crowd [10:37] for thos of you who don't know it: https://snwh.org/suru [10:38] knome: ^ [10:57] bluesabre: prepped a branch for you for the tabwin change we talked about recently [10:57] https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/xubuntu-default-settings/xfwm4-tabwin-no-previews/+merge/333869 [11:27] ochosi: I'm a fan of the suru theme, but I'm not convinced we can get the same coverage we have now with elementary-xfce [11:28] yeah, probably not [11:28] at least not immediately [11:28] oh [11:28] good morning! [11:28] :D [11:28] that's why it could also be a post-LTS topic [11:28] it's lunchtime here, but good morning to you too ;) [11:28] sounds good to me [11:29] ochosi: now that firefox 57 is out, was wondering if you might have time to freshen up greybird's firefox support [11:29] it doesn't look bad... just flat and boring [11:29] oh, what can i freshen up? [11:29] i dunno if i really have influence with plain gtk+ on firefox [11:29] my guess is that would have to be a userstyle [11:30] but maybe i'm wrong [11:30] what are you looking for in particular? [11:30] Firefox's theme engine is using gtk3 today, so I think there might be more leverage than in the past [11:30] do you have a theme that looks particularly good with the new fF? [11:32] * ochosi upgrades to v57 [11:32] wow, that looks different indeed [11:32] sucks that the icons seem to be hardcoded and not theme-dependent anymore [11:32] (back, fw, home, refresh) [11:33] https://i.imgur.com/trCjmvm.png maybe a slightly different color or gradient for the area with the address bar and active tab [11:33] Yeah [11:33] also the tabs... [11:33] It looks awesome with a two-tone theme like numix, looking for a good single color theme to see if I can show what I mean [11:33] yeah, a gradient for the toolbar would be helpful [11:33] looks a little bland [11:34] but the tabs are really a bit annoying... [11:35] yeah [11:35] Just thought I'd get that idea out there [11:35] yeah [11:35] Make it a little nicer to look at :) [11:35] good idea, just need to see what's feasible [11:36] the button hover is also completely not themed anymore [11:36] so hmpf, whatever gtk3 support means there [11:36] looks more like they render everything themselves and dont give a rats ass anymore about how the gtk theme looks [11:36] :D [11:36] looks ok with adwaita [11:36] cause the style is similar [11:37] but with the rest... [11:37] meh, i prefer elementary to suru :) [11:38] ochosi, want me to add the icon issue to agenda with your nick? [11:41] time to get ready for work, see you guys later (hopefully) at the meeting [11:41] hf [11:41] ochosi: thanks for being interested in tweaking greybird+firefox :D [11:43] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [xfwm4-tabwin-no-previews] r645 Disable window previews in Xfwm4's alt-tab dialog... (by Simon Steinbeiß) [11:45] i should probably upgrade to 17.10 [11:45] but maybe tomorrow [11:45] k [11:45] yeah, that would be nice knome [11:45] maybe with "Investigate..." [11:46] done [11:47] i'm not at all a fan of the curvy/circly icons [11:47] it kind of works on small mobile devices when you want to highlight the area that is clickable [11:47] but on desktop it feels a bit too busy to fill all that empty space with colored blobs ;) [11:48] Unit193, did you want any discussion to be had about that new installer? [11:56] gotta take care of the little one, bbl [12:02] to me Suru looks just like the icons I have on my Huawei P9 phone [12:13] I'm with knome, regarding the change from elementary to Suru [12:13] uru icons look way similar to some (most) of Android icons [12:13] +S [18:17] knome: What new isntaller? subiquity? Thought that was more for servers. [18:18] And I'm with knome, not really a fan of the new icon theme. [18:19] new installer - I missed that :p [18:27] heh, isn'tstaller [19:01] flocculant: Server installer, to replace debian-installer. [19:02] oh === vinzv_away is now known as vinzv [21:17] i'll very likely be there, but maybea little late [21:19] ok [21:20] !team | Community meeting in 40 minutes! [21:20] Community meeting in 40 minutes!: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193 [21:21] knome: ygm I hope [21:24] yup [21:36] evening all [21:36] hi bluesabre :) [21:37] hi flocculant [21:40] bluesabre: re parole issues - you likely to look at those during this cycle? [21:40] flocculant: yup, and other things [21:41] okey doke - didn't want to bang on about things and have you facepalming at me behind the interwebs :D [21:42] the inoperative play button when it starts up is a bit annoying ;) [21:43] :) [21:44] :) [21:45] 2 main issues with it as far as I'm concerned, whether you think they're bugs is a different thing :D [21:45] that ^^ and not being able to point mouse at 'some time during the play time' and it to move to then [21:47] * flocculant mostly dislikes saying things are a bit odd when he knows we've not got hundreds of people eagerly waiting for issues to fix ;) [21:48] bluesabre: if I had a 'visual' thing re the pa plugin - where would you want it reporting to? [21:49] flocculant: bugzilla please [21:49] okey doke [21:56] xfce 14016 then [21:56] bugzilla.xfce.org bug 14016 in General "Output section looks odd without icon" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14016 [21:57] ochosi with his visual hat on might have an opinion there too :p [21:57] flocculant: I agree that it looks better with an icon [21:58] removed it since ochosi asked me to [21:58] yup [21:58] very tempted to add it back :D [21:58] vaguely remember the discussions on that [21:59] bluesabre might be pleased to know that I actually use the plugin [21:59] * bluesabre is very pleased [21:59] \o/ [22:00] #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting [22:00] Meeting started Fri Nov 17 22:00:04 2017 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [22:00] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [22:00] !chair bluesabre ochosi [22:00] knome: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [22:00] err [22:00] #chair bluesabre ochosi [22:00] Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi [22:00] or [22:00] hi everyone [22:00] hi [22:00] who's here for the meeting? [22:00] evening peeps [22:00] o/ [22:00] ochosi said he'd be here, just a bit late [22:01] pleia2, want to join the fun? [22:01] ohi [22:01] not sure if I'll manage to make through the all meeting [22:01] kryyyyteeeen [22:01] Yes! [22:01] hi pleia2 :) [22:01] slickymaster, just don't empty the whole rum bottle.. [22:01] wow, dkessel's idle time is 67 days [22:01] but don't let the guests do that either [22:01] thing is, I also want to have some before it disappears [22:02] that :p [22:02] #topic Open action items [22:02] yep [22:02] there are none [22:02] they're all done :) [22:02] #topic Updates and announcements [22:02] bluesabre, staging PPA [22:02] want to open that up or just announce? [22:03] Fine to just announce for now, I think there is/was a mail going out to the ML with more details [22:03] oki [22:03] is [22:04] #info QA Staging PPA is now available at https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/staging [22:04] #info PulseAudio Plugin and Status Notifier Plugin are now included in Bionic, replacing indicator-application, indicator-sound, and xfce4-volumed [22:04] #info Next milestone, November 30: Feature Definition Freeze [22:04] #topic Discussion [22:04] #subtopic Replace GNOME components with MATE components (bluesabre) [22:04] bluesabre, the floor is yours [22:04] Alrighty, so a bit of rationale [22:05] Our current GNOME components are patched in Ubuntu to replace the headerbars with normal window manager controls and menus [22:05] That requires manpower to maintain, and Ubuntu is likely to just drop the patches going forward [22:06] MATE is a DE more similar to Xfce, window manager and menus included [22:06] question [22:06] Yes? [22:06] is the dropping (if) down to moving from unity to gnome and not needing the patches? [22:07] Yes, since Unity needed the menus to work correctly with the global menus [22:07] ok - cool, just wasn't sure [22:07] sorry for interruption :) [22:08] The components I've listed, evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc, are basically drop in replacements [22:08] headerbar == CSD? [22:08] yes [22:08] right, so do we have CSD in other apps [22:08] like some apps bluesabre wrote [22:08] Yes, where we have more control to make sure they work well in xfce [22:08] right [22:09] gnome-calculator has a menu that seems to come and go when running in xfce [22:09] Currently, it does not show for me [22:09] But it would normally show in GNOME shell [22:09] do you think this transition will happen during 18.04? [22:09] same here, bluesabre [22:09] :) [22:09] knome, I think it will [22:09] And if we are willing to move now, it will probably help their decision [22:09] also, you say the replacements are drop in... do they share the same codebase? [22:10] I'd hope if it does - then it happens soon [22:10] MATE components are basically the GNOME 2 variants, ported to GTK3 with bug fixes [22:10] So, probably 90% same [22:10] right, so instead of using the GNOME3 components that likely get a bit more attention, we're moving to GNOME2 components that are maintained by mate people? [22:11] i'm asking this partly because i want to know what the future for these components looks like [22:11] MATE is pretty popular and has strong development [22:11] eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it [22:11] flexiondotorg: you about? [22:11] It could easily be argued they have more eyes on them than xfce [22:12] o/ [22:12] knome: I feel confident they will be maintained for the foreseeable future [22:12] flexiondotorg will likely be able to answer that for us :) [22:12] flexiondotorg: we're thinking of using some MATE components instead of GNOME, thoughts? [22:13] flexiondotorg, or in other words, how many bottles of rum are you willing to donate to slickymaster if we do? [22:13] Ok. Applications or components of the DE? [22:13] apps [22:13] Ok [22:13] just [22:13] evince -> atril, file-roller -> engrampa, gnome-calculator -> mate-calc [22:13] for now [22:13] Right. [22:14] * slickymaster waits [22:14] flexiondotorg: the question was [22:14] < knome> eg. does mate have the manpower to maintain them and are they willing to do it [22:14] Interesting. Because just today we've been discussing how we might decouple the apps from the core DE release schedule. [22:14] So the apps can iterate at their own pace. [22:15] We have a small but dedicated team. We've been maintaining them for years and intend to continue to do so. [22:15] Might need to review how deep the deps go on some of the apps. [22:16] that'd be nice [22:16] Wouldn't want you pulling in stuff you don't require. [22:16] sounds great [22:16] mate-calc is fine. [22:16] Those three seem pretty minimal, might need to recommends to include theme alternatives [22:16] Pretty open to packaging patches? [22:16] I'll check the apps you're interested in and report back in a bit. [22:17] awesome, thanks flexiondotorg [22:17] flexiondotorg: you are a gent :) [22:17] Yes, more than happy to collaborate and help you guys out. [22:17] thanks [22:17] i think this is "big enough" that we need a vote just for the sake of it... [22:17] so let's start it here [22:17] Ubuntu Kylin is based on MATE now too. So we've done this before. [22:17] team is 11, so we need 6 votes at minimum [22:19] #vote OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? [22:19] Please vote on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? [22:19] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [22:19] +1 [22:19] +1 received from bluesabre [22:19] +1 [22:19] +1 received from knome [22:19] +1 [22:19] +1 received from krytarik [22:19] +1 [22:19] +1 received from flocculant [22:19] +1 [22:19] +1 received from akxwi-dave [22:19] * flocculant wakes up pleia2 slickymaster and krytarik [22:19] slickymaster, you still waiting for the rum offer or ready to vote? [22:19] +1 [22:19] +1 received from slickymaster [22:19] just having a sip [22:20] :) [22:20] pleia2, want to cast a vote? [22:20] +0 [22:20] +0 received from pleia2 [22:20] sorry krytarik - was looking for kryten ... [22:20] lol [22:20] :) [22:20] #endvote [22:20] Voting ended on: OK to replace GNOME components with MATE counterparts? [22:20] Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 [22:20] Motion carried [22:21] #info Carrying on with the transition to MATE components [22:21] That step was painless [22:21] yes [22:21] can we have a 'if it's March when it happens - QA can say no' vote ... [22:21] "but you only won by one vote, lulz" [22:21] flocculant: planning to make it happen asap [22:21] :) [22:21] bluesabre: I'd assumed so :) [22:21] #action bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF [22:21] ACTION: bluesabre to change seed for GNOME/MATE apps transition before FDF [22:22] tongue was firmly in cheek ;) [22:22] hopping over power manager for now since ochosi is away [22:22] #subtopic Core on tracker? (flocculant) [22:22] flexiondotorg: looking forward to working with you more :) [22:22] oh sigh [22:22] flocculant, ta-dah! [22:22] dahhhhhhhhhh [22:22] so this is one simple question - then a not simple question ... [22:22] first then [22:23] So I was about to work on some Ubuntu MATE, but I take a look at the apps you're interested in instead and provide some initial feedback. [22:23] do we add 'Core' to the tracker for Unit193, slickymaster and me to add a result 2 or 3 times? [22:23] flexiondotorg, great, can you send it to our mailing list? :) [22:23] flexiondotorg: thanks :) [22:23] Given you guys are fmailiar with GTK, would you be up for offering patches and such upstream to address issue you encounter? [22:24] flexiondotorg: definitely [22:24] * flocculant hangs on [22:24] We like it when things work well [22:24] flexiondotorg, just go on... :) [22:24] err, flocculant [22:24] silly fl's [22:24] :D [22:24] * flocculant waits a bit longer [22:24] flocculant: I think we should hold on including on the tracker until we can get core patches in [22:24] secondly [22:25] I'm planning on reviewing them next week, and them nudging people a bunch [22:25] what's the score with a real core - that we can get on tracker that builds daily? [22:25] that's the real crux of the matter imo [22:25] i'm still +1 for the core/base thing, and i want to give all support for it [22:25] iirc [22:25] same here [22:25] bluesabre, ^ so please let me know if you need help with it [22:25] That's definitely related [22:25] this is at least the second LTS we've had this discussion [22:26] yup [22:26] Going to make these not TODO this cycle [22:26] one question is how much Unit193 is still interested in getting this forward? [22:26] [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh debian-cd patches: TODO [22:26] [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh livecd-rootfs patches: TODO [22:26] [xubuntu-dev] xubuntu-core: Refresh ubuntu-cdimage patches: TODO [22:26] [ubuntu-cdimage] xubuntu-core: Review and merge patches: BLOCKED [22:26] :( [22:26] i mean, i understand this is frustrating and all and if he's lost the interest [22:26] knome: I'm going to try to spearhead this a bit, Unit193 is probably (rightfully) burned out on this [22:27] bluesabre, yes, that's a good idea, though the other issue is that soon it will all be on you [22:27] knome: I think it's entirely possivlt that he's considerably fed up with the whole thing - the doing it 'officially' thing that is [22:27] o/ [22:27] s/possible [22:27] hello ochosi [22:27] sry i'm late [22:27] np [22:27] i'll try to catch up [22:27] flocculant, yes, indeed, which is why i'm bringing up this question [22:27] ochosi: catch up just before the meeting started ... [22:28] knome: [22:28] knome: once the patches are in, there should be minimal maintenance required after the fact... hopefully I can return it to krytarik and Unit193 at that point [22:28] and in case we do get progressing, is he willing to pick it back up then [22:28] sure [22:28] last time 'we' spoke he was less politely pissed off [22:28] not wanting to put words in someone else's tongue [22:28] i'm aware [22:29] flocculant: yeah, no need :) [22:29] and I completely agree with it tbh [22:29] So mate-calc. From a deps point of view no issues. [22:29] frankly I think we've just been given the runaround by canonical people [22:29] However, the .desktop file Name is "MATE Calculator". [22:29] we're perhaps too damn polite [22:30] i don't know how CC even works nowadays, but maybe we should just contact them if nothing happens [22:30] * flocculant winds his neck in a bit [22:30] and get on with it [22:30] I've not discussed this with the MATE team, but I've been wanting to drop the MATE prefixes on some of the app names. [22:30] Perhaps now is the time :-) [22:30] from what i gathered, one of the issues is "core" vs. "base" [22:30] though i've told them we'll go with "base" if that's really the only issue... [22:30] flexiondotorg turns out to be really useful tonight :D [22:30] flexiondotorg: that shouldn't be an issue, but cool if that were to happen [22:31] flexiondotorg, +1 for dropping MATE prefixes, me like [22:31] flocculant: we're seeing the other benefit of using MATE bits, we're a lot closer to the MATE folks in general [22:31] knome: I'm on the CC. We're all new this time round. If you have questions feel free to ask. [22:31] can we give flexiondotorg a brief resume of the core thing - as he's got his CC hat on [22:31] probably better leave that to outside the meeting [22:31] yeah [22:31] why? [22:31] time? [22:31] that too [22:32] I remember the "core thing" I prepared patches for Xubuntu and Ubuntu MATE ages ago. [22:32] ok - let's shelve it for a bit, but not a very long bit :D [22:32] flocculant, indeed not [22:32] the discussion [22:32] yep [22:32] anything else on core for the meeting? [22:33] I'll hold fire on tracker for the moment then [22:33] and oh - yes [22:33] Just gotta refresh patches and then take another stab at it [22:33] Pluma looks all fine. No issues IMO. [22:33] i don't mind if core is on tracker nevertheless [22:33] flexiondotorg, pluma? :P [22:33] flexiondotorg: yeah, we won't be needing pluma though :) [22:33] knome: I don't want to confuse it [22:33] The text editor from MATE. [22:33] k, if i may add a small comment to the s/gnome/mate/ vote (even though the motion has already passed), i would look at each component separately and check if there are any important features we'd be missing [22:33] last cycle - it ended up being rebuilt somehow [22:34] it's not like the gnome components haven't been developed since gtk3 was started [22:34] flocculant, i understand [22:34] Oh, Pluma wasn't on the list :-) [22:34] ochosi, right, but tbh what features would there be for those three apps that we needed really? [22:34] :) [22:34] ochosi: indeed, but the apps we're interested in aren't super feature full... calc, pdf, and archive [22:35] but noted :) [22:35] yes, if their basic functions work, they are perfect [22:35] maybe do a mail about it when they've landed [22:35] to run some checking [22:35] yup [22:35] or even do it before if people are willing [22:35] Some config and shortcuts to be updated [22:35] dunno, with evince i'd be taking a closer look (at least to me that's a VIA - very important app) [22:35] we can do a testing call when they land [22:36] but it... reads pdf? :D [22:36] ochosi: could I have you test any special features there you depend on? [22:36] So Engrampa (archive manager) should be fine. [22:36] Pulls in extension library for Caja (file manager) but that is only 18Kb. [22:36] OMZG [22:36] :P [22:37] does it *really* need it though? [22:37] bluesabre: could we land them in stages? [22:37] i think if we want "stages", then just first tell people to install them from the repo [22:37] and if nothing is wrong for a while, change the seed [22:37] or would you rather just jfdi? [22:38] knome: For Xubuntu no. So we could have an or in the Recommends: to reference an something from XFCE :-) [22:38] flocculant: we could, what sort of staging schedule would you want? [22:38] flocculant, akxwi-dave and can each pick one and test them [22:38] I'm more inclined to just do it all at once so I don't go missing for too long :D [22:38] knome: then we don't know if what people have locally are affecting them? [22:38] Would be a good idea to install these one at a time in a clean Xubuntu VM and see what gets pulled in. [22:38] meh :) [22:38] bluesabre: jfdi then :) [22:38] lol [22:39] flexiondotorg: i think for xfce you don't need any recommends for engrampa (weird gerontophile name btw ;)) [22:39] I can do that in a vm tomorrow [22:39] the change in seed is a small one, it's fast to revert too [22:39] flexiondotorg: Yeah, I'll check it out and see if anything surprising comes in [22:39] or flocculant :) [22:39] :D [22:39] anything surprising or flocculant? [22:39] flocculant is surprising [22:39] i would definitely consider flocculant in my app surprising [22:39] both ... [22:39] anyway [22:39] ha ha ha [22:39]