[01:14] <simoniz0r> :)
[06:09] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[06:56] <jibel> koza, hi, I followed your advice and removed bluez (which also remove its dependencies gnome-bluetooth and pulseaudio-module-bluez)
[06:57] <jibel> koza, but bluetoothd from the snap still doesn't start automatically
[06:57] <jibel> and then I cannot enable bluetooth at all from control center
[06:58] <jibel> g-c-c reports BT is 'On' but it is not
[07:06] <jibel> koza, and on artful the daemon fails to start with: D-Bus setup failed: Connection ":1.117" is not allowed to own the service "org.bluez" due to security policies in the configuration file
[08:26] <koza> jibel, im here now. sorryfor delays still in Taipei and simetimes i miss pings here
[08:27] <koza> jibel, which release process you have on your mind?
[08:45] <jibel> koza, the release of the bluez snap. when is it published to the different channels and the promotion criteria?
[08:45] <jibel> koza, i'm documenting the qa process
[08:46] <jibel> if there is nothing documented it's fine too, i'll propose something
[08:49] <koza> jibel, no, everything is documented?
[08:50] <koza> jibel, ce has all the processes done the *right* way and nothing slips to channels
[08:50] <koza> jibel, what is the purpose of your documentation, who will use the new process?
[08:51] <jibel> koza, the purpose is to describe how to test this snap on desktop.
[08:51] <koza> jibel, so more likely a test plan
[08:51] <jibel> and apart from the test plan is the spreadsheet i've nothing
[08:52] <jibel> koza, a test plan, but also how to install and run it on desktop
[08:52] <koza> the spreadshet is the most important part :-) it is being converted to checkbox btw
[08:52] <koza> jibel, ah ok got it. instructions you mean. for me process is a workflow since the build to release so I got confused
[08:53] <jibel> koza, it's important but making sure every tester is testing the same way on the same environment is also important
[08:53] <koza> jibel, running on desktop is quite not defined atm as we have not targeted desktop so far focusing on core
[08:54] <jibel> then when it should be tested by the desktop team, in which channel, which tests are done upstream, any automation, ... so there is no duplicated effort and a good coverage
[08:54] <jibel> koza, okay, lets discuss this during the bluez meeting with duflu when he is back
[08:54] <koza> jibel, correct and this is what im trying to achieve and convince to since like months. we have discussed it with willcooke number of times during bt sync meeting. nice that finally somethings is shaping out of this.
[08:55] <jibel> koza, i'll write a draft to use as a base for the discussion
[08:55] <koza> jibel, sure, or anytime you want we can jump on HO. for me it is important that we as a devs maintaining bluez follow the repetetive testing that we can benefit in a future by building up a database of past results. hence the test plan.
[08:56] <koza> jibel, sure, share with me once you have it, ill be more than happy to review and contribute to.
[08:56] <jibel> thanks
[08:56] <koza> willcooke hey and nice timing, i just have mentioned you :-)
[08:56] <willcooke> morning
[08:58] <willcooke> what did I miss?
[08:58] <koza> willcooke, a discussion about testing bluez on desktop. i referred to a number of our discussions about the process, test plans and such
[08:58] <willcooke> super
[09:02] <jibel> trying to understand where CE and desktop meet during the release of the bluez snap
[09:03] <Laney> hai
[09:05] <koza> jibel, we do meet. all of the snaps are tested by the developer, cert, testflinger and commercial qa.
[09:05] <koza> jibel, moreover for bluez releases i require test plan to be executed
[09:06] <koza> jibel, we do have a snap update verification board that is semi-automated (much like ci-train & britney) for tracking purposes.
[09:06] <koza> jibel, different qa teams are performing handovers to next in line qa teams as the snap travels from channel to channel
[09:07] <koza> jibel, responsibilities are defined and shared
[09:07] <jibel> koza, I know but at some point it lands on the desktop, and I cannot find any info about what is currently done on this platform
[09:07] <koza> jibel, what i see that at least for bluez and rest of the snaps maintained by ce you are part of this. as for the apps and other I have no idea.
[09:09] <koza> jibel, on desktop none as it did not landed there so far. for bluez you have the user tests set which is about using bluez through Unity (update to gnome on its way) UI plus Keyboards & Headsets which are tested also through the UI (not bluetoothctl) to check the integration.
[09:11] <seb128> hey Laney willcooke
[09:12] <seb128> (back online from the coffee place)
[09:12] <willcooke> morning seb128
[09:12] <koza> o/
[09:12] <seb128> willcooke, how are you today? having your office back in a work-suitable place?
[09:12] <seb128> hey koza
[09:13] <willcooke> seb128, yeah nice and quiet again here today, and the teeth aren't as painful (yet)
[09:14] <willcooke> on the plus side, my new office now has a floor, some electrical sockets and some network points
[09:14] <willcooke> and a window :)
[09:15] <seb128> nice
[09:16] <koza> willcooke, where have you been that you see windows and floors as a major improvements?
[09:16] <willcooke> koza, on a building site :D
[09:18] <koza> willcooke, sounds like fun
[09:18] <willcooke> it is, some days
[09:26] <Laney> seb128: sorry, missed your hey
[09:26] <Laney> hi!
[09:26] <Laney> how's it going?
[09:26]  * Laney nods willcooke koza too
[09:27] <seb128> good! could have slept longer though
[09:27] <seb128> and you, how are you?
[09:31] <Laney> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm not bad
[09:31] <Laney> washing machine is broken though so having to go to the launderette
[09:31] <Laney> irritating
[09:31] <Laney> first world problem tho
[09:32] <seb128> hehe
[09:38] <willcooke> ha, an AO van just pulled up to deliver a new washing machine to my neighbour
[09:38] <willcooke> Looks like they're getting a Bosch one.  Good choice.
[09:38] <willcooke> #washingmachinenews
[09:38] <Laney> Sam Sung is coming at the weekend to look
[09:39] <Laney> we're getting error code 4E #washingmachinenews
[09:39] <willcooke> ohh
[09:39] <willcooke> now, that is interesting
[09:39] <willcooke> we had a Samsung, with I /think/ the same error.  They came out about 4 times before we gave up.
[09:39] <willcooke> and bought a new one
[09:39] <Laney> oh god
[09:39] <willcooke> It would just stop half way through a wash
[09:40] <Laney> it does like 5 minutes and gives up with that
[09:40] <willcooke> and wouldnt spin or turn the drum properlyt
[09:40] <willcooke> does it keep rocking the drum back and forth
[09:40] <willcooke> ?
[09:40] <willcooke> just a little bit
[09:40] <Laney> yeah chugs about a bit
[09:40] <willcooke> ha
[09:40] <willcooke> same
[09:40] <Laney> i think it decides that it's not getting water in
[09:40] <Laney> clearly is though
[09:40] <willcooke> Not buying a Samsung again
[09:40] <Laney> :(
[09:40] <Laney> was a which best buy!
[09:41] <willcooke> I dont trust Which anymore
[09:41] <willcooke> for the same reason
[09:41] <willcooke> I dont think they can do more than a couple of days of testing
[09:43] <Laney> just found the invoice
[09:43] <Laney> this thing was £599
[09:43] <Laney> that means I'm going to try to make them fix it :P
[09:45] <willcooke> oof, yeah
[09:46] <Laney> not in warranty tho
[09:52] <willcooke> :(
[09:52] <willcooke> Is there some sticker on the front about a 10 year warranty on the motor?
[09:59] <Laney> yeah
[10:00] <Laney> I was suspicious of that at the start
[10:00] <Laney> when I bought it
[10:00] <Laney> like that's the part that will probably never break
[10:00] <Laney> the fridge has one of those too about the compressor
[10:00] <willcooke> indeed
[10:01] <doko> willcooke, jbicha: updated https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus-libpinyin/+bug/1735362  looks like the way forward is ibus-libpinyin ... that would require a MIR, and subscribing to the package, before ibus-sunpinyin can be demoted (and one less gtk2/glade2 package in main ...)
[10:01] <koza> willcooke, jibel, seb, bt weekly?
[10:01] <koza> seb128 ^^
[10:02] <willcooke> humm,
[10:02] <willcooke> why is is marked as not coming in my calendar
[10:02] <willcooke> one sec
[10:02] <Laney> back in a min
[10:04] <seb128> koza, sorry, since duflu is  away and you are travelling I assumed we were not doing it, I'm currently in a noisy place without headphones
[10:04] <koza> seb128 ok no worries
[10:05] <seb128> koza, if you have any question I'm happy to reply on IRC
[10:07] <koza> seb128 no questions
[10:10] <seb128> k
[10:26] <joumetal> is there good chance to get bug #1168978 fixed in bionic release?
[10:28] <joumetal> bug is fixed upstream by small patch
[11:07] <seb128> Laney, thanks for adding the details to the shell theming trello card!
[11:08] <Laney> yw, thanks for pinging me
[11:14] <Laney> haha
[11:15] <Laney> the hub told me off for writing a crappy post
[11:15] <Laney> it was "yeeeeeeeeeeeahhhhhhhh"
[11:20] <seb128> lol
[11:21] <Laney> is it possible to get moderator privileges?
[11:22]  * Laney would like to close the guest session thread
[11:22] <Laney> at some point those "give me feedback on XYZ" threads stop being useful
[11:23] <willcooke> popey, ^ can we get some extra privs, or can you help Laney with closing the thread?
[11:32] <seb128> is that the sort of things we usually do to stop a discussion? does it create any noise issue for others who don't follow that topic?
[11:32] <seb128> (I'm fine with closing it, just wondering if we have "moderation guidelines" or such)
[11:32] <Laney> maybe that'd be useful
[11:34] <Laney> in this case I think it's just people basically +1ing and it makes at least me click on it when it's bumped
[11:34] <Laney> I think you could say thanks, this thread has been useful, the work is scheduled at this link, going to close it now
[11:37] <popey> Closing a thread is fine if it's wandering around or not productive
[11:37] <popey> Happy to have desktop team people moderate that category
[11:41] <seb128> good
[11:42] <popey> Can it wait until I am back at my desk later this evening? Am at a conference today
[11:43] <Laney> yeah no big deal
[11:43] <Laney> it's not that important anyhow
[11:43] <Laney> thanks!
[12:23] <joumetal> help /channel
[14:05] <jbicha> doko: GunnarHJ has been helping us with language related pacakges, maybe ask him what he thinks about switching those pinyin packages
[14:14] <doko> jbicha: I don't know who that is, just got feedback from Debian. Maybe subscribe him to the bug report?
[14:15] <jbicha> https://launchpad.net/~gunnarhj
[14:15] <seb128> what's the topic?
[14:15] <jbicha> LP: #1735362
[14:17] <jbicha> doko: I'd prefer if you asked Gunnar (instead of me asking him) since I'm not particularly interested in switching around our IM packages
[14:22] <seb128> jbicha, doko, i Cced Gunnar & asked on the bug, let's see
[14:27] <doko> ta
[14:33] <seb128> doko, jbicha, in fact that was already discussed a bit on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2017-October/005269.html
[14:34] <seb128> we should probably switch, I'm going to look a bit more at the differences first though
[14:34] <jbicha> thanks, that shows how I wasn't paying careful attention to those pkgs :|
[14:35] <seb128> :)
[14:58] <doko> seb128: what was your solution regarding bittornado?
[14:59] <seb128> doko, what i wrote in the bug
[14:59] <seb128> remove it from the seed & demote
[14:59] <seb128> it seems so ancient decision of having a command line torrent client, I don't think that makes much sense on a desktop
[15:00] <seb128> could be more for server maybe
[15:00] <doko> hmm, I only got the message about the owner ...
[15:00] <seb128> doko, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bittornado/+bug/1735346/comments/3
[15:03] <seb128> doko, re libglade2, the -dev depends on python, do you know why that binary is in main? http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.artful/rdepends/libglade2/libglade2-dev is empty
[15:06] <doko> looking ...
[15:06] <Trevinho> good morning guys
[15:07] <doko> seb128: as a wrote ... ibus-sunpinyin ...
[15:08] <doko> hmm, that's python-glade2
[15:08] <seb128> doko, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libglade2/+bug/1735369
[15:08] <seb128> I meant
[15:11] <doko> seb128: try adding it to extra-excludes in some seed?
[15:11] <seb128> what does that do and why is it needed?
[15:11] <seb128> can we just demote it and see if something tries to bring it back to main?
[15:12] <doko> sure, we could do that
[15:12] <seb128> I would start by trying that
[15:14] <jbicha> seb128: are you asking just about the -dev package, or are you asking about python-glade2 or what?
[15:15] <seb128> jbicha, I'm trying to understand the bug I just mentioned, it looks like what depends on "python" is libglade2-dev?
[15:15] <doko> that was just about the -dev package. But I assume that requires extra-excludes for other -dev packages of the gtk2 stack as well
[15:16] <seb128> i guess I don't understand what extra-excludes is/does
[15:16] <seb128> or why it is needed
[15:16] <jbicha> seb128: python-glade2 is kept in main because of LP: #1735872 and ibus-sunpinyin
[15:16] <doko>  * Extra-Include: *-dbg *-debug *-dev *-doc *-docs gir1.2-* *-examples
[15:16] <doko> this is the dangerous thing ...
[15:17] <seb128> jbicha, but that's not a binary from libglade2 source?
[15:17] <seb128> jbicha, or do I read https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libglade2/1:2.6.4-2 wrongly?
[15:17] <jbicha> python-glade2 then depends on libglade2-0
[15:17] <seb128> yes
[15:17] <seb128> that's fine
[15:18] <seb128> -dev is the one which depends on python
[15:18] <seb128> libglade2-0 doesn't depends on python right?
[15:18] <jbicha> I mean we could drop libglade2-dev from main but there's no point yet since s-c-kickstart depends on python-glade2 which depends on python and libglade2-0
[15:19] <doko> it would be nice if somebody could disable the flaky gvfs autopkg tests ...
[15:19] <jbicha> doko: file a  Debian bug since the gvfs pkg is in sync-ish with Debian
[15:20] <seb128> jbicha, well, one less is better than one more? ;-)
[15:20] <seb128> jbicha, also i don't understand why libglade2-dev has to be in main
[15:20] <doko> jbicha, maybe better done by some friendly people, rather than by me?
[15:21] <doko> as I tried to explain, it's pulled in by the Extra-Include
[15:21] <jbicha> what, you're not friendly enough? 😁
[15:22] <doko> I have some history with Debian gnome =)
[15:23] <jbicha> I'm uncomfortable messing with the glaky gvfs autopkgtests
[15:23] <jbicha> ggg
[15:23] <seb128> doko, ah ok, i saw that you copied that line but didn't understood it was to explain why it's in main, thanks
[15:24] <jbicha> this is generally the list of stuff keeping gtk2 in main https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=gtk2-demotion
[15:24] <jbicha> there's a couple more in progress like Firefox, avahi and colord but the missing ones from that list are fairly easy
[15:26] <doko> I'm afraid, openjdk isn't changing soonish
[15:26] <jbicha> seb128: we can override the Extra-Include rule like I did in http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.bionic/view/head:/supported#L344
[15:27] <seb128> jbicha, right, thanks
[15:28] <seb128> jbicha, debconf isn't likely to be ported this cycle is it?
[15:28] <seb128> said differently that's a nice goal but not likely
[15:28] <jbicha> seb128: ask cjwatson about it, I think it's probably not too difficult-ish for a perl person
[15:28] <seb128> I asked previous cycle
[15:29] <seb128> my feeling was that it was on his list but low priority enough that it wouldn't happen
[15:29] <seb128> so I don't count on it to be done this cycle
[15:30] <jbicha> I'm guessing it's a bit more interesting if it's literally the only thing keeping gtk2 in the default install for an LTS
[15:31] <seb128> right, but even if it is I don't think it's going to autocreate resources
[15:31] <seb128> and it's not in any case
[15:31] <jbicha> Firefox and Thunderbird are getting the gtk2 shlibdeps hack so debconf is the only thing
[15:35] <jbicha> ricotz: I opened https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/1423363 otherwise we can apply the same hack from Firefox to Thunderbird Beta too
[15:36] <jbicha> seb128: :)
[15:38] <seb128> jbicha, good surprises coming :)
[15:38] <jbicha> so basically, we're likely to have the default install not include gtk2 but the live ISO will still need it for some input methods (and gparted ?)
[15:40] <doko> |   +- libgtk2.0-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |  * Reverse Depends:
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libavahi-ui-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libdbusmenu-glib-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |  * Reverse Depends:
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |   +- libappindicator3-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |   +- libdbusmenu-gtk3-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |   +- libdbusmenu-jsonloader-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |   +- libunity-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libgail-dev
[15:40] <seb128> spam!
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libglade2-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |  ! skipped
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libgpod-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libgtkmm-2.4-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libgtkspell-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   +- libindicator-dev
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |  * Reverse Depends:
[15:40] <doko>  |   |   |   +- libindicator3-dev
[15:40] <doko> so it looks like you want to add all these to extra-excludes ...
[15:40] <doko> if they are gtk2 only
[15:41] <jbicha> doko: where did you get that list from?
[15:42] <doko> from the germinate output
[15:42] <Laney> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.bionic/rdepends/gtk+2.0/libgtk2.0-dev
[15:42] <jbicha> gail is the same source pkg as gtk2
[15:42] <doko> right, the extra-excludes only help for some binary packages
[15:43] <jbicha> avahi just needs the Debian version merged, but see LP: #1735960
[15:43] <jbicha> gpod and gtkspell and indicator aren't in main any more
[15:44] <doko> $ apt-cache show libgtkspell-dev|grep ^File
[15:44] <doko> Filename: pool/main/g/gtkspell/libgtkspell-dev_2.0.16-1.1ubuntu1_amd64.deb
[15:44] <jbicha> I was kind of hoping sunweaver would take over libdbusmenu maintainership (details need to be worked out), but if we want things faster, there's a trivial packaging change I can apply to it
[15:46] <jbicha> doko: I believe you demoted gtkspell today https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=gtkspell&S=on
[15:47] <doko> ahh, ok, re-running my local germinate
[15:47] <jbicha> gtkmm2.4 is because of gparted
[17:03] <jbicha> seb128: see GNOME bug 791035
[18:06] <doko> jbicha: demoted libglade2-dev python-gtk2-dbg python-gtk2-dev python-gtk2-doc
[18:06] <doko> looks like you could try to demote other gtk2 -dev/-dbg packages too by adding extra-excludes
[18:10] <jbicha> I don't think it helps much to drop the -dev from main if we don't drop the library too…
[18:11] <jbicha> doko: but what do you think about LP: #1736620 where the -dev does actually end up pulling in gtk2 but the primary library does not depend on gtk2
[18:11] <doko> any recommends?
[18:11] <doko> any -dbg or -doc packages?
[18:12] <jbicha> the only thing that depends on libgvc6-plugins-gtk is libgraphviz-dev so I suggest #2 but I don't know much about graphviz
[18:13] <jbicha> or #3 if you think doing the Excludes thing is reasonable
[18:14] <mdeslaur> seb128: fyi, I added a list of problematic packages in bug 1735929
[18:14] <mdeslaur> seb128: just changing them to 700 seemed to work, but I'd appreciate being looked at by the desktop team in case those are used in some other way
[18:15] <doko> I'm a bit hesitant excluding -dev packages which are not just gtk2 related
[18:20] <jbicha> doko: oh I see, libgraphviz-dev has rdepends in main
[18:24] <seb128>  mdeslaur, ok, thanks, now is dinner time but I've a look later
[18:24] <mdeslaur> no rush
[18:24] <mdeslaur> thanks seb128
[19:37] <willcooke> night all
[22:25] <seb128> jbicha, that fix from L_aney makes sense to me
[22:34] <jbicha> ok
[22:35] <jbicha> seb128: for libdbusmenu, I thought we didn't really care about reviewing minor Unity-related uploads
[22:35] <seb128> in practice we don't care a lot
[22:35] <seb128> but it's still good practice to wait a bit in case somebody wants to give you a review
[22:35] <seb128> you can move ahead the next day or such if that's not the case
[22:36] <jbicha> ok
[22:38] <seb128> on that note calling it a day, good night everyone