| anastasia | ciao | 00:15 |
|---|---|---|
| anastasia | siete belli | 00:15 |
| swift110 | hey all | 00:16 |
| === sony is now known as Guest73275 | ||
| Guest73275 | QUE | 03:57 |
| ektod-nuevo | hey? | 05:03 |
| labdoo | kirich | 06:02 |
| basilarchia | mandje, it's awesome except for snapd | 07:49 |
| basilarchia | what the fuck is snapd and why the living fuck is it a fucking daemon. | 07:50 |
| basilarchia | mandje, other than that, my comment stands that ubuntu-mate is the best distribution I've used in 10 years | 07:50 |
| alkisg | !language | 07:50 |
| ubottu | Please avoid any language that may be considered offensive, including acronyms and obfuscation of such - also see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines || The main channels are English only, for other languages, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList | 07:50 |
| basilarchia | snapd actually has mountpoints. who the hell engineered this and why | 07:51 |
| basilarchia | oh good god really | 07:51 |
| basilarchia | there are like 50 hard engineers in this channel | 07:51 |
| basilarchia | we aren't in kindergarden | 07:51 |
| basilarchia | whatever. whomever made the language rule never tried to debug video corruption | 07:52 |
| alkisg | You can read about snapd in its documentation, and you can uninstall it easily | 07:54 |
| alkisg | mount points is a good idea | 07:54 |
| alkisg | android also uses it | 07:56 |
| red | oi | 08:23 |
| === red is now known as Guest17953 | ||
| mandje | basilarchia, you haven´t said what snapd actually does. so please let me know. (a 9 year old girl who is innocent as hell and will be traumatised foreva by any rude language.) | 09:19 |
| mate|47852 | Anyone know of a good Linux wallpaper changer? I tried to install Variety on Ubuntu Mate but unsuccessfully. | 10:15 |
| basilarchia | alkisg, a daemon that sells apps is insane. that's not a model that should be installed by default. ever. it's crazy | 10:51 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: so I take it you're not using a mobile phone? | 10:52 |
| basilarchia | mandje, if there is a 9 year old using ubuntu-mate and hangs around in this channel then there is hope that smart people exist in the world, but ubuntu-mate on the desktop is very far away from traction at this point | 10:52 |
| alkisg | Because all of them do that... | 10:52 |
| basilarchia | that doesn't have anything to do with how to package apps for desktop linux | 10:52 |
| alkisg | I avoid snapd, but the logic behind it is sound | 10:52 |
| alkisg | Of course it does | 10:53 |
| alkisg | How would YOU implement per app permissions? | 10:53 |
| basilarchia | dude. you are crazy. name one app that is being sold that any one has heard of | 10:53 |
| basilarchia | the only app that comes to mind for me right now is steam | 10:53 |
| ali1234 | intellij idea and pycharm | 10:53 |
| basilarchia | so you don't register with the sites when you get a .deb ? | 10:54 |
| basilarchia | then ignore them | 10:54 |
| basilarchia | it's like 2 people out of a zillion use cases | 10:54 |
| ali1234 | they don't ship debs | 10:54 |
| basilarchia | then double ignore them. what does anyone care? | 10:54 |
| ali1234 | its targz that you have to manually unpack and configure, or snap | 10:55 |
| ali1234 | they happen to be the best available IDEs for java and python respectively. but less me guess, i should write everything in C right? | 10:55 |
| basilarchia | so that's their damn problem (the commercial 3rd party app makers) | 10:55 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: why are you talking about SELLING things? | 10:55 |
| basilarchia | don't go and install a daemon on everyone's box for that | 10:55 |
| alkisg | snapd isn't about selling | 10:55 |
| basilarchia | ok, well, it was right in the man page so I didn't go a whole lot farther than that | 10:56 |
| alkisg | It's about managing permissions per application, introducing support for closed source apps on linux with limited permissions | 10:56 |
| basilarchia | other than it had a bunch of mountpoints | 10:56 |
| alkisg | The same thing is appimage of redhat | 10:56 |
| ali1234 | i agree that the mountpoints are annoying | 10:56 |
| basilarchia | jesus. yuck | 10:56 |
| alkisg | And android, ios etc | 10:56 |
| ali1234 | i wish there was a way to hide them from mount command | 10:56 |
| ali1234 | because mine's about four pages long now | 10:56 |
| basilarchia | alkisg, hey, if you are making money on it then fine, but you can put the snapd in the normal place where people install steam then | 10:57 |
| basilarchia | it's rediculous to install that by default | 10:57 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: you are completely missing the point | 10:57 |
| basilarchia | I guess | 10:57 |
| ali1234 | when you make your own distro you can install whatever you want | 10:57 |
| alkisg | The point is, "how can I run an application on linux with limited permissions on my own files" | 10:58 |
| basilarchia | ya, ok. maybe, but all and all, this dist is really solid | 10:58 |
| alkisg | Because I don't trust the app | 10:58 |
| basilarchia | why would you ever be asking that question | 10:58 |
| basilarchia | I'm not asking that question | 10:58 |
| basilarchia | so I don't need a daemon running to answer that question | 10:58 |
| basilarchia | and like 99.9999% of users don't need to answer that question | 10:58 |
| basilarchia | so don't install it by default IMHO | 10:58 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: so you are REALLY not using a mobile phone? | 10:59 |
| alkisg | Because that's what you do on your phone | 10:59 |
| basilarchia | linux desktop doesn't need to work like a phone | 10:59 |
| basilarchia | is that the goal of ubuntu-mate? | 10:59 |
| ali1234 | as much as everyone thinks they want convergence, phones are completely different to desktops | 10:59 |
| basilarchia | because that's not how the operation system was designed, or how gnome was designed to work | 10:59 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: how does a DE related to snapd? omg | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | this isn't a phone | 11:00 |
| alkisg | Are you just trolling? | 11:00 |
| ali1234 | gnome is very much designed to work like this | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | no | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | no, I'm not trolling | 11:00 |
| alkisg | Do you want to learn something, or are you just complaining and I should ignore you? | 11:00 |
| alkisg | OK then | 11:00 |
| ali1234 | flatpak is the same as snap, except with even more layers of confinement | 11:00 |
| alkisg | So, imagine that all android apps get available on linux | 11:00 |
| alkisg | How would you implement that? | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | ok, what is the equivelent on the macos then? | 11:00 |
| ali1234 | in flatpak you can't even open a file without connecting to dbus | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | android apps will never be available for linux like that | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | why would you ever want that? | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | run an emulator then | 11:00 |
| basilarchia | we have the full sourcecode for android | 11:01 |
| alkisg | I dont want the emulator, I want integrated apps | 11:01 |
| basilarchia | just put it inside a container if you want android | 11:01 |
| basilarchia | it's already compiled for ARM | 11:01 |
| alkisg | I don't want android, I want all the apps from android to be available native on linux | 11:01 |
| basilarchia | so it's emulated anyway | 11:01 |
| alkisg | I don't want arm | 11:01 |
| alkisg | I don't want emulation | 11:01 |
| basilarchia | ok, so you have 32bit x86 android packages somewhere? | 11:02 |
| ali1234 | macos uses bundles btw. they are disk images, and they get mounted | 11:02 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: no, the plan is to have an API that e.g. angry bird developers can use to deploy their app native on linux | 11:02 |
| ali1234 | most android packages contain no native code | 11:03 |
| vas | hallo spricht jemand deutsch | 11:03 |
| basilarchia | angry birds should make a native app just like tuxracer if they want to | 11:03 |
| alkisg | Then we as the users will need to only give them specific permissions, so that we don't risk them getting our /home/username data and doing whatever they want with it | 11:03 |
| basilarchia | there really isn't enough of an audience yet for any of this to make sense | 11:03 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: close source. closed. You don't know what they do with /home/userame. | 11:03 |
| alkisg | That's the issue there | 11:03 |
| alkisg | tux is open | 11:03 |
| basilarchia | alkisg, ya, that's always the problem with closed source stuff | 11:04 |
| alkisg | Of course ALL linux users would want closed source apps | 11:04 |
| vas | wie kann ich rechte fur remote desktop freigeben | 11:04 |
| alkisg | You can't force all devs to change their development paradigm just because | 11:04 |
| alkisg | Open source is just ONE development model | 11:04 |
| alkisg | You must support others too | 11:04 |
| ali1234 | !de > vas | 11:04 |
| ubottu | vas, please see my private message | 11:04 |
| basilarchia | well, snapd seems to have all kinds of risk of a phone home daemon running as root | 11:05 |
| basilarchia | you might as well install nethack by default with the sticky bit set | 11:05 |
| alkisg | Most daemons run as root, that's normal | 11:05 |
| basilarchia | ya, I know that | 11:05 |
| alkisg | You're supposed to trust the open source daemon there managing permissions, instead of the closed source app doing whatever | 11:05 |
| basilarchia | but this is the first one I've ever heard of that is for purchasing commercial apps | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | personally i don't care about permissions | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | all the snaps i use run in classic mode anyway | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | they are just easier to manage | 11:06 |
| alkisg | Purchases were in ubuntu store for years, snap isn't about that | 11:06 |
| ali1234 | there are hardly any commercial apps on the store | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | nobody uses it for that | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | no developers | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | but that was fairly predictable | 11:07 |
| alkisg | Yes, there's no full API yet that developers could use. Not in snapd or in appimage. | 11:07 |
| basilarchia | ya, I would imagine that was basically a failed endevior, which is what my instinct about snapd is | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | i mean they pushed it pretty hard, but nobody turned up | 11:07 |
| basilarchia | but hey, I'm happy to learn I'm wrong here | 11:07 |
| basilarchia | but I'm not hearing a convincing arguement | 11:07 |
| alkisg | I expect snapd to fail, and appimage to succeed, because of the companies behind them | 11:07 |
| ali1234 | very much. that's why they dropped ubuntu phones | 11:07 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: I'm not supporting snapd, I'm just explaining why it exists | 11:08 |
| ali1234 | appimage will not succeed, it is too hard to package for it | 11:08 |
| basilarchia | well that doesn't explain why ubuntu-mate's default install needs to install snapd | 11:08 |
| basilarchia | alkisg, ya, I grok | 11:08 |
| ali1234 | and flatpak definitely wont go anywhere when they require every app to be rewritten to work with it | 11:08 |
| alkisg | flatpak=appimage | 11:08 |
| alkisg | Flavors have a common base, they cannot put whatever programs they want | 11:08 |
| ali1234 | what the other one called then? | 11:08 |
| alkisg | ubuntu-standard or something | 11:09 |
| ali1234 | no, appimage != flatpak | 11:09 |
| basilarchia | why does anyone care about any of this besides intellij idea and pycharm | 11:09 |
| ali1234 | they are different | 11:09 |
| basilarchia | oracle must have .deb packages I would think | 11:10 |
| basilarchia | anyway, it's like, not interesting | 11:10 |
| basilarchia | 99% of the stuff anyone uses is free besides the games | 11:10 |
| ali1234 | appimage is the one that barely has any confinement, it's just a bundle of libraries basically | 11:10 |
| ali1234 | flatpak has the most, requiring every operation that touches the host to go through dbus | 11:10 |
| basilarchia | does anyone know if there is some plan to redo the applications / places and system menus? | 11:11 |
| basilarchia | because they are almost good but still bad | 11:11 |
| ali1234 | snap is also the only one that can be used to build an entire distribution - flatpka can't package its own daemon for example | 11:11 |
| basilarchia | or maybe all of that is coming from upstream | 11:11 |
| basilarchia | can't someone get Andy Hertzfeld back here to finish this interface off | 11:12 |
| basilarchia | it's like so close to perfect | 11:12 |
| basilarchia | I mean, compared to what ubuntu butchered the linux desktop into, at least there is sanity here | 11:12 |
| basilarchia | alkisg, so how is it intended to interface with the snapd? | 11:14 |
| basilarchia | is there a GUI component then? | 11:14 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: sorry I wasn't reading now, interface with snapd => what part? | 11:14 |
| basilarchia | how does the user purchase an app that gets installed in snapd? | 11:15 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: I haven't read about purchases with snap, wouldn't that be a completely different part? | 11:15 |
| alkisg | That's why it sounded strange to me that you were talking about purchases... | 11:15 |
| basilarchia | I'm just going from what I saw from the manpage on snap | 11:16 |
| alkisg | I imagine snapd is the subsystem for running the apps, not for purchasing them | 11:16 |
| alkisg | I'm not using any snap or flatpak or other systems btw, I don't even have them installed | 11:16 |
| basilarchia | I only tracked it down because, for a second, I thought some stupid crypto repo was trying to stupidly trojen a box I was using for testing | 11:16 |
| alkisg | But I do hope one of them succeeds... | 11:17 |
| basilarchia | alkisg, did you remove them? Then seem to be installed by default for me | 11:17 |
| alkisg | Yes | 11:17 |
| basilarchia | ok, well, then that just goes back to my question about how the ubuntu-mate is maintaing the default packages that are installed | 11:18 |
| basilarchia | this doesn't seem to be one of them that should be | 11:18 |
| alkisg | snapd is pulled by ubuntu-core-launcher | 11:18 |
| basilarchia | just my 2 cents from my pulpit over here | 11:18 |
| alkisg | There are dependencies that the "seeds" system can't overcome | 11:18 |
| alkisg | It's just how .deb work | 11:18 |
| basilarchia | removing it didn't remove any other packages, so it's not seeded in a .deb dependancy chain if that is what you are referring too | 11:19 |
| basilarchia | it's listed somewhere. | 11:19 |
| basilarchia | but is the ubuntu-mate installer like a stock ubuntu installer build? Eh, I guess I should just build. I don't have a proper mirror setup yet though | 11:20 |
| basilarchia | ah, the bash package looks like the stock ubuntu build. is this stuff just glued on top off all the pre-built packages that ubuntu releases then? | 11:22 |
| basilarchia | maybe the question is are ya'all going to build a full build infrastructure for all the packages. because you totally should | 11:23 |
| basilarchia | then you could more cull the herd | 11:23 |
| alkisg | basilarchia: recommends: get installed, but when you uninstall them, the original package doesn't get uninstalled | 11:23 |
| alkisg | Use apt rdepends to see the exact dependency | 11:23 |
| alkisg | Google for ubuntu-mate seeds to see the complete list of the initial packages specified | 11:24 |
| aswin | gg | 12:33 |
| francois | bonjour | 13:26 |
| diogenes_ | ca va | 13:27 |
| francois | oui et vous | 13:27 |
| diogenes_ | aussi | 13:27 |
| francois | j'ai un probleme firefox ne s'ouvre pas sous ubuntu mate | 13:28 |
| jack | ll | 13:29 |
| diogenes_ | courir dans le terminal | 13:30 |
| francois | je n'ai pas compris | 13:30 |
| diogenes_ | en terminal | 13:31 |
| diogenes_ | mv $HOME/.mozilla $HOME/.mozilla.bak | 13:31 |
| francois | francois@francois-desktop:~$ sudo mv SHOME/.mozilla SHOME/.mozilla.back | 13:34 |
| francois | [sudo] password for francois: | 13:34 |
| francois | mv: cannot stat 'SHOME/.mozilla': No such file or directory | 13:34 |
| francois | francois@francois-desktop:~$ | 13:34 |
| francois | voila ce que j'obtiens | 13:35 |
| diogenes_ | francois, no sudo | 13:35 |
| diogenes_ | sans sudo | 13:35 |
| diogenes_ | simple mv $HOME/.mozilla $HOME/.mozilla.bak | 13:36 |
| francois | francois@francois-desktop:~$ mv SHOME/.mozilla SHONE/.mozilla.back | 13:37 |
| francois | mv: cannot stat 'SHOME/.mozilla': No such file or directory | 13:37 |
| francois | francois@francois-desktop:~$ | 13:37 |
| francois | meme resultat | 13:37 |
| diogenes_ | hehe | 13:37 |
| diogenes_ | no S $ | 13:37 |
| diogenes_ | $HOME | 13:37 |
| diogenes_ | no S HOME | 13:37 |
| francois | ok | 13:37 |
| diogenes_ | dollar | 13:38 |
| francois | ok | 13:38 |
| francois | francois@francois-desktop:~$ mv $HOME/.mozilla $home/.mozilla.back | 13:41 |
| francois | mv: cannot move '/home/francois/.mozilla' to '/.mozilla.back': Permission denied | 13:41 |
| francois | francois@francois-desktop:~$ | 13:41 |
| francois | ???? | 13:41 |
| diogenes_ | hehe | 13:41 |
| diogenes_ | non mv $HOME/.mozilla $home/.mozilla.back | 13:41 |
| diogenes_ | mv $HOME/.mozilla $HOME/.mozilla.back | 13:41 |
| diogenes_ | non $home | 13:42 |
| diogenes_ | $HOME | 13:42 |
| francois | faut il redemarer | 13:44 |
| diogenes_ | ok | 13:45 |
| francois | merci | 13:45 |
| diogenes_ | ok | 13:45 |
| mate|97077 | I need some help. Variety wallpaper changer does not show on the main panel after installing it. Any reason why? | 14:22 |
| alkisg | Is this an official ubuntu package? | 14:22 |
| mate|97077 | Yes. But it does not say it is compatible with Ubuntu Mate. | 14:25 |
| Astro7467 | Variety is in the software boutique, and works with MATE | 14:27 |
| mate|97077 | okay | 14:27 |
| mate|97077 | thanks | 14:27 |
| mate|29461 | I just installed Variety wallpaper changer. It doen't show on the main panel like it did in Linux Mint Mate 18.3 How do I access it? | 14:33 |
| Khan89 | something similar has happened to me with Wine... I installed it but does not show on the applications panel | 14:35 |
| Astro7467 | I find sometimes there is a delay in the menu picking up new entries | 14:35 |
| Astro7467 | Tho menu search may find it | 14:35 |
| Astro7467 | Or doing ALT-F2 and starting to type variety is how I normally get things quickly | 14:36 |
| Linux4UnMe | Odd... I just installed "variety" to see if I had the same problem but it does seem to appear in the top right hand panel | 14:37 |
| Linux4UnMe | Interesting... when I change the panel layouts, all the icons that were there before disappeared :D | 14:38 |
| Astro7467 | I couldn't remember if it auto started. But if there, then it's ready to configure and will never be used from the menu | 14:38 |
| Linux4UnMe | mate|29461: Have you been playing with the mate tweak tool and changing panel layouts recently? | 14:39 |
| Linux4UnMe | I found that when I do this, sometimes the mate applets freak out and disappear... then when I change the layout again (in mate tweak tool) The taskbar icons come back again | 14:41 |
| mate|29461 | right. I found Variety and I added a pictures folder for the wallpapers I want. | 14:42 |
| Linux4UnMe | great | 14:44 |
| Cpt_Iglo | Right. What is this? | 15:59 |
| Cpt_Iglo | Nobody here? | 16:00 |
| diogenes_ | nope | 16:00 |
| mate|29461 | I thought I would like it when I installed the software-center, but I don't. How do you remove it? Tried remove and it didn't work. | 16:04 |
| diogenes_ | how did you try? | 16:07 |
| eren_ | Thank you guys for creating Mate | 16:58 |
| mate|30461 | oi | 17:30 |
| mate|30461 | tem alguém que se expressa em português ? | 17:32 |
| === will_ is now known as Guest62130 | ||
| oswald | dare ga imasu ka | 19:21 |
| Urhonius | Seems like Ubuntu Mate 17.10 has massive performance issues | 21:48 |
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