[00:15] <anastasia> ciao
[00:15] <anastasia> siete belli
[00:16] <swift110> hey all
[03:57] <Guest73275> QUE
[05:03] <ektod-nuevo> hey?
[06:02] <labdoo> kirich
[07:49] <basilarchia> mandje, it's awesome except for snapd
[07:50] <basilarchia> what the fuck is snapd and why the living fuck is it a fucking daemon.
[07:50] <basilarchia> mandje, other than that, my comment stands that ubuntu-mate is the best distribution I've used in 10 years
[07:50] <alkisg> !language
[07:51] <basilarchia> snapd actually has mountpoints. who the hell engineered this and why
[07:51] <basilarchia> oh good god really
[07:51] <basilarchia> there are like 50 hard engineers in this channel
[07:51] <basilarchia> we aren't in kindergarden
[07:52] <basilarchia> whatever. whomever made the language rule never tried to debug video corruption
[07:54] <alkisg> You can read about snapd in its documentation, and you can uninstall it easily
[07:54] <alkisg> mount points is a good idea
[07:56] <alkisg> android also uses it
[08:23] <red> oi
[09:19] <mandje> basilarchia, you haven´t said what snapd actually does.  so please let me know. (a 9 year old girl who is innocent as hell and will be traumatised foreva by any rude language.)
[10:15] <mate|47852> Anyone know of a good Linux wallpaper changer? I tried to install Variety on Ubuntu Mate but unsuccessfully.
[10:51] <basilarchia> alkisg, a daemon that sells apps is insane. that's not a model that should be installed by default. ever. it's crazy
[10:52] <alkisg> basilarchia: so I take it you're not using a mobile phone?
[10:52] <basilarchia> mandje, if there is a 9 year old using ubuntu-mate and hangs around in this channel then there is hope that smart people exist in the world, but ubuntu-mate on the desktop is very far away from traction at this point
[10:52] <alkisg> Because all of them do that...
[10:52] <basilarchia> that doesn't have anything to do with how to package apps for desktop linux
[10:52] <alkisg> I avoid snapd, but the logic behind it is sound
[10:53] <alkisg> Of course it does
[10:53] <alkisg> How would YOU implement per app permissions?
[10:53] <basilarchia> dude. you are crazy. name one app that is being sold that any one has heard of
[10:53] <basilarchia> the only app that comes to mind for me right now is steam
[10:53] <ali1234> intellij idea and pycharm
[10:54] <basilarchia> so you don't register with the sites when you get a .deb ?
[10:54] <basilarchia> then ignore them
[10:54] <basilarchia> it's like 2 people out of a zillion use cases
[10:54] <ali1234> they don't ship debs
[10:54] <basilarchia> then double ignore them. what does anyone care?
[10:55] <ali1234> its targz that you have to manually unpack and configure, or snap
[10:55] <ali1234> they happen to be the best available IDEs for java and python respectively. but less me guess, i should write everything in C right?
[10:55] <basilarchia> so that's their damn problem (the commercial 3rd party app makers)
[10:55] <alkisg> basilarchia: why are you talking about SELLING things?
[10:55] <basilarchia> don't go and install a daemon on everyone's box for that
[10:55] <alkisg> snapd isn't about selling
[10:56] <basilarchia> ok, well, it was right in the man page so I didn't go a whole lot farther than that
[10:56] <alkisg> It's about managing permissions per application, introducing support for closed source apps on linux with limited permissions
[10:56] <basilarchia> other than it had a bunch of mountpoints
[10:56] <alkisg> The same thing is appimage of redhat
[10:56] <ali1234> i agree that the mountpoints are annoying
[10:56] <basilarchia> jesus. yuck
[10:56] <alkisg> And android, ios etc
[10:56] <ali1234> i wish there was a way to hide them from mount command
[10:56] <ali1234> because mine's about four pages long now
[10:57] <basilarchia> alkisg, hey, if you are making money on it then fine, but you can put the snapd in the normal place where people install steam then
[10:57] <basilarchia> it's rediculous to install that by default
[10:57] <alkisg> basilarchia: you are completely missing the point
[10:57] <basilarchia> I guess
[10:57] <ali1234> when you make your own distro you can install whatever you want
[10:58] <alkisg> The point is, "how can I run an application on linux with limited permissions on my own files"
[10:58] <basilarchia> ya, ok. maybe, but all and all, this dist is really solid
[10:58] <alkisg> Because I don't trust the app
[10:58] <basilarchia> why would you ever be asking that question
[10:58] <basilarchia> I'm not asking that question
[10:58] <basilarchia> so I don't need a daemon running to answer that question
[10:58] <basilarchia> and like 99.9999% of users don't need to answer that question
[10:58] <basilarchia> so don't install it by default IMHO
[10:59] <alkisg> basilarchia: so you are REALLY not using a mobile phone?
[10:59] <alkisg> Because that's what you do on your phone
[10:59] <basilarchia> linux desktop doesn't need to work like a phone
[10:59] <basilarchia> is that the goal of ubuntu-mate?
[10:59] <ali1234> as much as everyone thinks they want convergence, phones are completely different to desktops
[10:59] <basilarchia> because that's not how the operation system was designed, or how gnome was designed to work
[11:00] <alkisg> basilarchia: how does a DE related to snapd? omg
[11:00] <basilarchia> this isn't a phone
[11:00] <alkisg> Are you just trolling?
[11:00] <ali1234> gnome is very much designed to work like this
[11:00] <basilarchia> no
[11:00] <basilarchia> no, I'm not trolling
[11:00] <alkisg> Do you want to learn something, or are you just complaining and I should ignore you?
[11:00] <alkisg> OK then
[11:00] <ali1234> flatpak is the same as snap, except with even more layers of confinement
[11:00] <alkisg> So, imagine that all android apps get available on linux
[11:00] <alkisg> How would you implement that?
[11:00] <basilarchia> ok, what is the equivelent on the macos then?
[11:00] <ali1234> in flatpak you can't even open a file without connecting to dbus
[11:00] <basilarchia> android apps will never be available for linux like that
[11:00] <basilarchia> why would you ever want that?
[11:00] <basilarchia> run an emulator then
[11:01] <basilarchia> we have the full sourcecode for android
[11:01] <alkisg> I dont want the emulator, I want integrated apps
[11:01] <basilarchia> just put it inside a container if you want android
[11:01] <basilarchia> it's already compiled for ARM
[11:01] <alkisg> I don't want android, I want all the apps from android to be available native on linux
[11:01] <basilarchia> so it's emulated anyway
[11:01] <alkisg> I don't want arm
[11:01] <alkisg> I don't want emulation
[11:02] <basilarchia> ok, so you have 32bit x86 android packages somewhere?
[11:02] <ali1234> macos uses bundles btw. they are disk images, and they get mounted
[11:02] <alkisg> basilarchia: no, the plan is to have an API that e.g. angry bird developers can use to deploy their app native on linux
[11:03] <ali1234> most android packages contain no native code
[11:03] <vas> hallo spricht jemand deutsch
[11:03] <basilarchia> angry birds should make a native app just like tuxracer if they want to
[11:03] <alkisg> Then we as the users will need to only give them specific permissions, so that we don't risk them getting our /home/username data and doing whatever they want with it
[11:03] <basilarchia> there really isn't enough of an audience yet for any of this to make sense
[11:03] <alkisg> basilarchia: close source. closed. You don't know what they do with /home/userame.
[11:03] <alkisg> That's the issue there
[11:03] <alkisg> tux is open
[11:04] <basilarchia> alkisg, ya, that's always the problem with closed source stuff
[11:04] <alkisg> Of course ALL linux users would want closed source apps
[11:04] <vas> wie kann ich rechte fur remote desktop freigeben
[11:04] <alkisg> You can't force all devs to change their development paradigm just because
[11:04] <alkisg> Open source is just ONE development model
[11:04] <alkisg> You must support others too
[11:04] <ali1234> !de > vas
[11:05] <basilarchia> well, snapd seems to have all kinds of risk of a phone home daemon running as root
[11:05] <basilarchia> you might as well install nethack by default with the sticky bit set
[11:05] <alkisg> Most daemons run as root, that's normal
[11:05] <basilarchia> ya, I know that
[11:05] <alkisg> You're supposed to trust the open source daemon there managing permissions, instead of the closed source app doing whatever
[11:06] <basilarchia> but this is the first one I've ever heard of that is for purchasing commercial apps
[11:06] <ali1234> personally i don't care about permissions
[11:06] <ali1234> all the snaps i use run in classic mode anyway
[11:06] <ali1234> they are just easier to manage
[11:06] <alkisg> Purchases were in ubuntu store for years, snap isn't about that
[11:07] <ali1234> there are hardly any commercial apps on the store
[11:07] <ali1234> nobody uses it for that
[11:07] <ali1234> no developers
[11:07] <ali1234> but that was fairly predictable
[11:07] <alkisg> Yes, there's no full API yet that developers could use. Not in snapd or in appimage.
[11:07] <basilarchia> ya, I would imagine that was basically a failed endevior, which is what my instinct about snapd is
[11:07] <ali1234> i mean they pushed it pretty hard, but nobody turned up
[11:07] <basilarchia> but hey, I'm happy to learn I'm wrong here
[11:07] <basilarchia> but I'm not hearing a convincing arguement
[11:07] <alkisg> I expect snapd to fail, and appimage to succeed, because of the companies behind them
[11:07] <ali1234> very much. that's why they dropped ubuntu phones
[11:08] <alkisg> basilarchia: I'm not supporting snapd, I'm just explaining why it exists
[11:08] <ali1234> appimage will not succeed, it is too hard to package for it
[11:08] <basilarchia> well that doesn't explain why ubuntu-mate's default install needs to install snapd
[11:08] <basilarchia> alkisg, ya, I grok
[11:08] <ali1234> and flatpak definitely wont go anywhere when they require every app to be rewritten to work with it
[11:08] <alkisg> flatpak=appimage
[11:08] <alkisg> Flavors have a common base, they cannot put whatever programs they want
[11:08] <ali1234> what the other one called then?
[11:09] <alkisg> ubuntu-standard or something
[11:09] <ali1234> no, appimage != flatpak
[11:09] <basilarchia> why does anyone care about any of this besides intellij idea and pycharm
[11:09] <ali1234> they are different
[11:10] <basilarchia> oracle must have .deb packages I would think
[11:10] <basilarchia> anyway, it's like, not interesting
[11:10] <basilarchia> 99% of the stuff anyone uses is free besides the games
[11:10] <ali1234> appimage is the one that barely has any confinement, it's just a bundle of libraries basically
[11:10] <ali1234> flatpak has the most, requiring every operation that touches the host to go through dbus
[11:11] <basilarchia> does anyone know if there is some plan to redo the applications / places and system menus?
[11:11] <basilarchia> because they are almost good but still bad
[11:11] <ali1234> snap is also the only one that can be used to build an entire distribution - flatpka can't package its own daemon for example
[11:11] <basilarchia> or maybe all of that is coming from upstream
[11:12] <basilarchia> can't someone get Andy Hertzfeld back here to finish this interface off
[11:12] <basilarchia> it's like so close to perfect
[11:12] <basilarchia> I mean, compared to what ubuntu butchered the linux desktop into, at least there is sanity here
[11:14] <basilarchia> alkisg, so how is it intended to interface with the snapd?
[11:14] <basilarchia> is there a GUI component then?
[11:14] <alkisg> basilarchia: sorry I wasn't reading now, interface with snapd => what part?
[11:15] <basilarchia> how does the user purchase an app that gets installed in snapd?
[11:15] <alkisg> basilarchia: I haven't read about purchases with snap, wouldn't that be a completely different part?
[11:15] <alkisg> That's why it sounded strange to me that you were talking about purchases...
[11:16] <basilarchia> I'm just going from what I saw from the manpage on snap
[11:16] <alkisg> I imagine snapd is the subsystem for running the apps, not for purchasing them
[11:16] <alkisg> I'm not using any snap or flatpak or other systems btw, I don't even have them installed
[11:16] <basilarchia> I only tracked it down because, for a second, I thought some stupid crypto repo was trying to stupidly trojen a box I was using for testing
[11:17] <alkisg> But I do hope one of them succeeds...
[11:17] <basilarchia> alkisg, did you remove them? Then seem to be installed by default for me
[11:17] <alkisg> Yes
[11:18] <basilarchia> ok, well, then that just goes back to my question about how the ubuntu-mate is maintaing the default packages that are installed
[11:18] <basilarchia> this doesn't seem to be one of them that should be
[11:18] <alkisg>   snapd is pulled by ubuntu-core-launcher
[11:18] <basilarchia> just my 2 cents from my pulpit over here
[11:18] <alkisg> There are dependencies that the "seeds" system can't overcome
[11:18] <alkisg> It's just how .deb work
[11:19] <basilarchia> removing it didn't remove any other packages, so it's not seeded in a .deb dependancy chain if that is what you are referring too
[11:19] <basilarchia> it's listed somewhere.
[11:20] <basilarchia> but is the ubuntu-mate installer like a stock ubuntu installer build? Eh, I guess I should just build. I don't have a proper mirror setup yet though
[11:22] <basilarchia> ah, the bash package looks like the stock ubuntu build. is this stuff just glued on top off all the pre-built packages that ubuntu releases then?
[11:23] <basilarchia> maybe the question is are ya'all going to build a full build infrastructure for all the packages. because you totally should
[11:23] <basilarchia> then you could more cull the herd
[11:23] <alkisg> basilarchia: recommends: get installed, but when you uninstall them, the original package doesn't get uninstalled
[11:23] <alkisg> Use apt rdepends to see the exact dependency
[11:24] <alkisg> Google for ubuntu-mate seeds to see the complete list of the initial packages specified
[12:33] <aswin> gg
[13:26] <francois> bonjour
[13:27] <diogenes_> ca va
[13:27] <francois> oui et vous
[13:27] <diogenes_> aussi
[13:28] <francois> j'ai un probleme firefox ne s'ouvre pas sous ubuntu mate
[13:29] <jack> ll
[13:30] <diogenes_> courir dans le terminal
[13:30] <francois> je n'ai pas compris
[13:31] <diogenes_> en terminal
[13:31] <diogenes_> mv $HOME/.mozilla $HOME/.mozilla.bak
[13:34] <francois> francois@francois-desktop:~$ sudo mv SHOME/.mozilla SHOME/.mozilla.back
[13:34] <francois> [sudo] password for francois:
[13:34] <francois> mv: cannot stat 'SHOME/.mozilla': No such file or directory
[13:34] <francois> francois@francois-desktop:~$
[13:35] <francois> voila ce que j'obtiens
[13:35] <diogenes_> francois, no sudo
[13:35] <diogenes_> sans sudo
[13:36] <diogenes_> simple mv $HOME/.mozilla $HOME/.mozilla.bak
[13:37] <francois> francois@francois-desktop:~$ mv SHOME/.mozilla SHONE/.mozilla.back
[13:37] <francois> mv: cannot stat 'SHOME/.mozilla': No such file or directory
[13:37] <francois> francois@francois-desktop:~$
[13:37] <francois> meme resultat
[13:37] <diogenes_> hehe
[13:37] <diogenes_> no S $
[13:37] <diogenes_> $HOME
[13:37] <diogenes_> no S HOME
[13:37] <francois> ok
[13:38] <diogenes_> dollar
[13:38] <francois> ok
[13:41] <francois> francois@francois-desktop:~$ mv $HOME/.mozilla $home/.mozilla.back
[13:41] <francois> mv: cannot move '/home/francois/.mozilla' to '/.mozilla.back': Permission denied
[13:41] <francois> francois@francois-desktop:~$
[13:41] <francois> ????
[13:41] <diogenes_> hehe
[13:41] <diogenes_> non  mv $HOME/.mozilla $home/.mozilla.back
[13:41] <diogenes_>  mv $HOME/.mozilla $HOME/.mozilla.back
[13:42] <diogenes_> non $home
[13:42] <diogenes_> $HOME
[13:44] <francois> faut il redemarer
[13:45] <diogenes_> ok
[13:45] <francois> merci
[13:45] <diogenes_> ok
[14:22] <mate|97077> I need some help. Variety wallpaper changer does not show on the main panel after installing it. Any reason why?
[14:22] <alkisg> Is this an official ubuntu package?
[14:25] <mate|97077> Yes. But it does not say it is compatible with Ubuntu Mate.
[14:27] <Astro7467> Variety is in the software boutique, and works with MATE
[14:27] <mate|97077> okay
[14:27] <mate|97077> thanks
[14:33] <mate|29461> I just installed Variety wallpaper changer. It doen't show on the main panel like it did in Linux Mint Mate 18.3  How do I access it?
[14:35] <Khan89> something similar has happened to me with Wine... I installed it but does not show on the applications panel
[14:35] <Astro7467> I find sometimes there is a delay in the menu picking up new entries
[14:35] <Astro7467> Tho menu search may find it
[14:36] <Astro7467> Or doing ALT-F2 and starting to type variety is how I normally get things quickly
[14:37] <Linux4UnMe> Odd... I just installed "variety" to see if I had the same problem but it does seem to appear in the top right hand panel
[14:38] <Linux4UnMe> Interesting... when I change the panel layouts, all the icons that were there before disappeared :D
[14:38] <Astro7467> I couldn't remember if it auto started. But if there, then it's ready to configure and will never be used from the menu
[14:39] <Linux4UnMe> mate|29461:  Have you been playing with the mate tweak tool and changing panel layouts recently?
[14:41] <Linux4UnMe> I found that when I do this, sometimes the mate applets freak out and disappear... then when I change the layout again (in mate tweak tool) The taskbar icons come back again
[14:42] <mate|29461> right. I found Variety and I added a pictures folder for the wallpapers I want.
[14:44] <Linux4UnMe> great
[15:59] <Cpt_Iglo> Right. What is this?
[16:00] <Cpt_Iglo> Nobody here?
[16:00] <diogenes_> nope
[16:04] <mate|29461> I thought I would like it when I installed the software-center, but I don't. How do you remove it? Tried remove and it didn't work.
[16:07] <diogenes_> how did you try?
[16:58] <eren_> Thank you guys for creating Mate
[17:30] <mate|30461> oi
[17:32] <mate|30461> tem alguém que se expressa em português ?
[19:21] <oswald> dare ga imasu ka
[21:48] <Urhonius> Seems like Ubuntu Mate 17.10 has massive performance issues