 Okay great. Are you in the Spanish group btw?
[00:01] <tgBot> <Antonio Izquierdo Álvarez> Yeah
 I apologize for the inconvenience caused. I'm going to format it whole
 @Antonio Izquierdo Álvarez, Still better to play around with 15.04. Oops. There is no OP3 port yet. Marius is working on one though
 @Ricardo, No inconvenience at all. It was fun! As always, we learned something new
 con este comando se borra entero?
 @Antonio Izquierdo Álvarez, Have you got any experience of porting?
 with this command is it deleted?
 sudo ubuntu-device-flash —server=http://system-image.ubports.com touch —device=krillin —channel=ubports-touch/15.04/rc —fastboot —wipe
[00:04] <tgBot> <Antonio Izquierdo Álvarez> @Stereofont, Nope 😓 but how can I learn?
[00:06] <tgBot> <Antonio Izquierdo Álvarez> I have a lot of desire and free time, but how can I start?🤷‍♂
 @Ricardo, If you already have ubports recovery, then boot into recovery and use the command without the `--fastboot` option ?
 https://devices.ubports.com/#/krillin
 I thought you had an N7?
 @Antonio Izquierdo Álvarez, Join the welcome room link in the welcome link I sent earlier
 ok
 @Crash_Burn, OP3
 @Crash_Burn, I don't think we ever established which device
 krillian/ BQ e4.5
 it is already solved.formatted and again in Spanish
 🎂
 Is that good or bad?
 Muy mal
 @Ricardo, 👍🏼
 @dohbee, i hv to agree, it is very geographic. in where i am its marginal for example.
 (Photo, 1280x694) https://irc.ubports.com/sHINV5C7/file_2843.jpg
 yeah, weibo/wechat is the big thing in chinese region
 @dohbee, emails+PGP (and possibly other encryption layerd on top). … People say they want security but at the end of the day the do not. By general rule ppl always choose convenience over security.
 if you can't make security convenient, you shouldn't be arguing for security :)
 @dohbee, supposedly quantum encryption will be new edge fpr uneavsdropable communications.
 quantum encryption by definition doesn't exist
 schroedinger's encryption
 your data is both encrypted, and not, simultaneously, and always
 @dohbee, i am not sold by this one. I consider corporate/business environment for a moment. I set systems for security and people are bothered by needing to use passwords of a certain minimum difficulty. They would want to have no password or password like "12345677".  … Perhaps making fingerprint scanners instead of need for typing passwords would be considerably more convinient for them. But then you compromise privacy. I suppose u could go
[02:17] <tgBot> all that rationale that your fingerprint is not stored anywhere only some sort of single directional hash. That is what Apple and others do for their mobile phone fingerprint readers. Your call. I think that security/privacy/convenice is a trade-off.
 it's not a trade-off. if security isn't built for humans, it's not going to work
 for example, PGP
 great idea, horrible implementation
 for security to work, you must design for the weakest link
 ie, humans
 @dohbee, i guess i was not very thoughtful about precise ways of calling thinks properly. I am not pretending to be very familiar with quantum physics and applications of it.  … I meant quantum based communication. not encryption. One where eavsdropping can be detected.
 @dohbee, i probably can only be convinced to this if i see it. and it's been long time, yet no proof on concept. i remain in my opinion about tradeoff. the thing about making it human friendly is just theoretical for me because i am not seeing it happen.
 Signal.
 humans are lazy; not in the sense that we don't do work, but in the sense that we optimize that work
 lot of times ppl buy into buzz words about security but then they compromise it by ignorant choices to lean toward convenience instead.
 so if you have password rules, you get the worst passwords which fit those rules
 @dohbee, i agree with this
 You download the app, it texts you, you are now using Signal for all of your contacts with Signal.
 and people writing down stupid combinations of things to meet those rules, which reduces security
 if your opsec is awful, your infosec is going to be awful
 @UniversalSuperBox, i literally only have like 2 contacts that actually use signal
 @dohbee, with this onw i dont agree however. i cant agree that a combination of lo/hi case letters, digits and special symbols will decrease security comparing against 12345678 passwords. or 88888888 in case of Chinese people.
 and one of them was like "oh wow, someone else actually uses signal!" when i sent them a message
 well disagree all you want
 meanwhile, governments access all the data :)
 by which i mean, US/RU/CN governments
 maybe UK, but meh
 also, remember to eat ```before``` you drink, kids
 damnit
 i hate telegram
 sigh
 @dohbee, there is relation but not causation.  … password is supposed to protect against brute force (password guessing) access. in which case complexity of password works in favor of difficulty of anauthorized access. When governments access your data as you refered to, o dont think they depend on brute forcing your passwords anyways. unless u have exceptionally weak password then their dictionary attack could succeed. Rather they gain acces
[02:29] <tgBot> other means.
 brute force is irrelevant if the hash is already cracked
 "12345678" is not more secure than "correct horse battery staple" for example
 anyway, you're getting pretty divergent now
 @dohbee, ah yes, one password having multiple twin brothers u didnt lnow about. … Not all passwords rely on hashes.
 and guessing password instead of hash on a weak password is added value to one who wants to compromise it.
 wow, i just realized this beer has flower petals in it
 sadly not blue lotus though
 anyway, humans are weak link. if you can't account for that in design of an encryption technology, then the design is flawed.
 ∎
 on the other hand, if this is blue lotus, i'm going to have some amazing dreams tonight
 oh i account for it. i just dont care for their convenience as much as for the security standards. Since i don't have to care and they have to comply so i've further problem with it.
 also i dont care about security so much in this chat. when i do i use my other phone. black phone. no whatsapp telegram matrix or signal.
[02:50] <tgBot> Distanger was added by: Distanger
 *I've no further problem with it.
 ok. so you're part of the problem, and you're ok with that.
 funny thing to me is that you are big on words while you talk like someone who repeats overheard bits from here and there. like the part about hashes. Did you calculatw has yourself like ever? it is far easier to use dictionary to break 12345678 password than to calculate hash for it. … know that i am taking you only half seriously. your big ego does not convince me. but that is OT.
 *calculate hash as find passwors hash not calculate md5 of something at all ;)
 Alright, this isn't going anywhere. Can you two please discuss with understanding of each other or not at all?
 And, uh, welcome @Distanger! You've found us at a very interesting time.
 3am my time
 6 AM here
 @UniversalSuperBox, The best possible time!  Ubuntu Touch on quantum computers!! Get your qubits ready ;)
 Loo
 Quantum computers are less than calculators at this point
 Unlike binary computers no one invented all the needed useful algorithms before they were invented
 Binary computers were a topic of interest among mathematicians long before we knew how to make them
 Quantum computers lack basic functionality because until 10 years ago we didn't know how they might theoretically work
 We had many models of quantum computers possibilities and only recently have we realized what a 3 state bit is and we don't really know how to make software with 3 state bit computers
 @Xorpad, yeah we dont hv a 3 state bit based OS, we need to ivent logics, logical gates, cpu registers etc
 Yeah. When binary computers were invented mathematicians already had very complex and many algorithms because they predicted the invention of binary computers long before we had them
 theoretical computers existed long before harware implementation did
 entire boolean logic and theoretical logical gates and state machines like DAS all existed pretty early
 in a way 3 state logics might never become practical in some aspects of what we use computers for. There are things that we need to be deterministic to either true or false. When added a 3rd state, it beats some of the purposes on some design. A 3 state system would then need to emulate a 2 state logic. quantum computong is yet another buzzword, lots of things that were called quantum computers were not in fact quantum computers. im interested 
[05:34] <tgBot> first (can be theoretical) OS built in 3 state logics.
 Ubuntu Touch is still official name for the OS now that UBports took over?
 @dohbee, Wechat has an app api though, better than our western overlords in that regard
 Japan Korea and Taiwan it is Line
 I want to say the only thing in China
 @dohbee, this
 and qq, still
 I use wechat to search for clothings albums 😂
 so when I know what to order for myself
 @vanyasem, I agree ☝️
 If UBp have a Sina Weibo,that will great
 Is there a js/json wechat api?
 @samzn, I have Wechat,usually almost Chinese are  used Wechat
 Yeah I'm aware
 China have too much peoples
 I could make a wechat app, it might turn a lot of people to the platform
 It's more viable than making a WhatsApp application
 I'd only implement basic chat though, no fancy features the usual app provides
 If you can open China’s door, I am sure here  will add three zeros to the current 1044
 China now has a population of 1.4 billion
 in other words if you invite china to this supergroup the language will become Chinese in here
[07:36] <tgBot> Oleksandr was added by: Oleksandr
 @Oleksandr, Hello Oleksandr and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 if you want to keep English invite India
 Not at all
 @KrisJacewicz, Hey, it's only a matter of time until we are ruled by our Chinese overlords
 India isn't a good market
 @KrisJacewicz, I hope so 😂
 @samzn, why do you reckon that??
 @Tina119, :D
 Chinese group will supergroup,lol😂😂😂
 http://open.wechat.com/
 Good guy tencent
 We would never have something like this from GOOG or FB
 Seems there's no chat SDK though
 @samzn, The Chinese government has blocked Facebook, YouTube, sets a Google
 What I mean is that they keep a tight closed garden to their platforms
 You can't expand much upon their products
 China government is smart 👍
 It's very protectionist, which isn't very great
 But they managed to deliver it nicely to the internal market
 Now everyone knows that China is the largest market in the world
 https://github.com/node-webot/wechat-api can you translate this and see if there's any mention of using this for logging in & sending messages
 As a normal client
 They are selective and not completely closed
 @Tina119, this is a knife with both edges sharp though. While protecting CHinese market from non-CHinese companies, there is also not enough competition, so the Chinese businesed get it and have not much reason to make things better without competition. FOr example baidu maps is awful to use if you ever used google maps. But they have no competition at all, so they have no incentive to make things better either. Some businesses have more ambiti
[07:48] <tgBot> than others, but competition is what makes things better for the end users.
 @KrisJacewicz, 👍👍
 Chinese mobile market has no reliance on google though
 From my view every phone manufacturer does it's own thing there
 Yes
 Which seems like a good territory for foss mobiles
 @samzn, What does this api provide tina
 They broken About Google anything
 @samzn, I don’t understand
 Does that link specify anything about using it like a wechat client for sending messages? Or just interfacing with an existing client like the oficial api?
 @samzn, your data is safe from Google. Instead Chinese government has access to all of the data and more of it thanwhat google has access to. Nothng in CHina ets millions of users without an obvious back access for the government. … China is cashless economy right now. Wechat pays for everything. You are safe from Google. But Chinese government knows everything you do, places you go, with who. what do you buy, where and when, whether for your
[07:55] <tgBot> or mistress, who you talk to and what do you say. … And now they are gamifying people snitching on one another with the good citizen rank system. … But you are safe from google in CHina, and that's the most important ight ;)
 @KrisJacewicz, Not too different from our corporativist system tbh
 @samzn, I'm just a user. I'm not a software engineer，so I can’t understand
 It's not as bad as it could be though, we avoided Hillary
 @samzn, if you se no difference then it only means you don't see it.
 @Tina119, Ah that's fine, I will try to translate at work
 @samzn, US avoided Hillary. The world is bigger.
 I think that in CHina people who would geninely have interest in UT is still a small niche, like everywhere else in the world. … However, a small niche in CHina translates to a big number of people. Same in India for example.
 @KrisJacewicz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NyFRIgulPo  and https://staltz.com/the-web-began-dying-in-2014-heres-how.html are good talks on the subjects
 So to have a niche n China or/and India focused and interested in UT, would be a big asset in terms of head count
 @samzn, are you trying to discredit critique of one party by diverting to a critique of another one??
 What I mean is that the behaviour of Chinese Gvt & Tencent towards chinese people is similar to US Giants & US Institutions towards people in the west
 Difference one isnt a single entity
 one thing that I do notice though, is that while this group is 1k members, considered small by some standards, it is composed of people who often went out of their way to be somehow related to Ubuntu Touch. Maybe the nuber of use here is not overwhelming, but I dare to suspect that there are no random people here (random as in not sure how they ended up in this group).  … I don't know we can grow this gorup whioe also keeping members very cle
[08:04] <tgBot> their focus on the platform.  … To be fair, I also don't know if we should cosider that a goal. … But I thnk that at least while we are a small community, there are still advatages to be taken out of this (the small size).
 @samzn, i manage to see some diffreneces. One being that China government does not try to hide its intentions, or fool people into thinking they aren't doing what they are doing. In this, CHinese gvernment might be the least hypocritical of all of these so called parties.
 when i think what might be taken an advantage of in a small sized community, it is perhaps a very proactive spirit of the members.  … Whatdo you guys think can be other advantage?
 Unlike whatsapp, messenger, allo, etc which is a completely closed platform
 But back to the main point, if wechat has a decent api I could make an app that could bring people in, maybe even get a few bucks from donations or some nonintrusive monetization way in the app
 Christ, they threaten to sue people who work for free to deliver access to their services
 @KrisJacewicz, This is not a battlefield. Calm down，Kris😂😂
 @Tina119, but I'm calm
 abut to board a plane to China right now, will be use wechat hapily while there and will be spending my days free of google :(
 @KrisJacewicz, Right now?
 @samzn, if you can go out of your way to make integration with wechat, I think there will centainly be a value coming from it. Whether or not a monetary one, I don't know.
 @Tina119, yes
 @KrisJacewicz, Great
 Have a good flight :)
 so my access to tlegram and this group will get more troublesome over next few days
 @samzn, thnak you, appreciate
 @KrisJacewicz, Enjoying your flight
 I think china is fine with tg
 @Tina119, :)
 @samzn, it is very random
 definitely not smooth
 @samzn, Nope
 I used to use vpn from my company but now China made vpns much less easy to use as well. And it's oficially announced that in 2018 it will only become more difficult to use them.
 You can’t use th
 @KrisJacewicz, Yes,👍
 at random times messages will go thru from telegram, and also Line. But most of the time no.
 At college I ssh tunnel everything to my home server at port 80
 bit torrent based browsers still work if you use meeks
 @KrisJacewicz, I often used  van
 @samzn, well, China has great plans for making vpn dofficult to achieve in 2018, even if you mask your port
 time to board, take care guys, and @samzn if you were serious abt making wechat integration, it's probably a great idea to follow up n.
[08:54] <tgBot> <Rocco 3> Someone has problem with oneplusone camera flash? Mine doesn't light during having photos
 Rocco 3 Do you have the option to toggle it in the camera app?
[09:11] <tgBot> <Rocco 3> Yes, I have
 @Flohack, The crypto, yeah. But they disable key verification and key change warnings by default for convenience, so they removed authentication and make it trivial to MitM. Still better than Telegram though, sadly
 Hmm thats mean that the cmera app sees the interface do you have the same issue when filimng videos?
 @Distanger, Hello Disctanger and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 Is there any way to change the icons in the Ubuntu touch ?
 @Tina119, Hypergroup 😉
 @onajjar, Yes. I just did it. Install Falcon then add a couple of icon sets
 @Stereofont, Thank You !
 (Sticker, 507x512) https://irc.ubports.com/DMcLurxS/file_2844.webp
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/qn2um2FW/file_2846.jpg
 The other is Numix
 @Stereofont, I like numix much ;)
 @Stereofont, wow!
 @Stereofont, I guess so ....I hope so..... I think so....😂😂😂😂
 @onajjar, Me too
 @samzn, They all just ship their own forks of Android. There are a lot who just ship stock Android 4.4 on old hardware in really cheap phones
 i think wechat is just qq for doing auth/chat
 @samzn, *everybody* who ships a fork of android is dependent on google
 https://www.quora.com/Does-WeChat-have-a-public-API-How-can-I-access-it suggests chat is not open
 @dohbee, Wechat same qq , first qq ,second Wechat, You can register WeChat with QQ number
 @neothethird, Hey hey hey....who’s your Aviva?
 india uses pretty much all the same stuff as us/uk/eu for social networking. sadly, that includes whatsapp :-/
[12:44] <bshah> 'sadly'
[12:44] <bshah> I've total 4 friends on telegram, they signed up and never used it later
[12:44] <bshah> same for signal.. 2 friends
 well same for me
 don't see how that changes the facts
[12:45] <bshah> (sorry, my comment may come as out of context, didn't read full backlog)
[12:45] <bshah> but yes I am agreeing with you on social networking in India
 whatsapp is closed, and aggressively against third party devs
 I got my family on Signal. Wasn't  too hard
 i wonder how many matrix nodes are running in india
 In fact, many Chinese are using telegram,because Wechat and QQ are monitored...
 china is a weird place
 @dohbee, Why? How weird?
 very weird, in many ways
 Saying....
 like, apparently banning time travel theme
 @dohbee, I guess you are a India
 no
 @dohbee, Where are you from,Rodney😃
 the collective "it's ok that our gov't is oppressive, because they're very open and nice about it" is also kind of weird
 and the propaganda filled tv shows are fun
 us
 I don’t know yet 🙃🙃🙃
 @dohbee, Because China has 5,000 years of history and culture, and the United States has only two hundred years....SO you can't understand it....and you did think weird.... 😂😂😂
 more than 5000, and i can understand the history just fine
[13:08] <bshah> guys, this is going off-topic btw
 @bshah, I agree
 I think it's best not to talk about politics here. It's not about UT
 @Tina119, +1
 anyway, wechat is not open on chat side
 @Stereofont, 🙃🙃🙃🙃🙃
 and even if it was, i don't think it would get us many chinese users flocking to ubports
 ubuntu doesn't comply with chinese smartphone os regulations
 Is that why meizu only sold the international versions with UT then?
 @dohbee, Ah....
 There is a further point that bloatware seems to be embraced in China. Minimalism doesn't seem to have any traction there
 i don't think that's true
 Telegram
 Very leggy today
 no more so than anywhere else, anyway
 For sure bloatware has a massive following in the west too. There is a niche though that strongly values the austere
 i would hardly call ubuntu a minimalist phone, though
 In terms of UI it is a lot less busy
 Functionality is a different matter for sure
 you should have tried the retail images then; they had a lot more stuff installed by default
 and most apps are still webapps after all, and most web sites are far from minimal
 anyway, it is irrelevant
 that aspect has very little to do with increasing market share, in china, or anywhere
[13:25] <tgBot> lungwitz was added by: lungwitz
 It worked for early Mac
 i do wish the colors weren't so much iOS though
 @lungwitz, Hello Klaus and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 btw Klaus there is also a German language group, if you are interested
 @Stereofont, Thanks!
 @Stereofont, To your surprise, I'm from Argentina and my available languages (?) are Spanish and English
 Thanks anyway
 @lungwitz, BsAs?
 I was only 85% certain 😂 There is also a Spanish language group
 Yep
 @Stereofont, Hahaha
 awesome
 i guess ubports_ES is more spain spanish though?
 The idea is to go with language themes rather than a national theme but that is an ideal, not necessarily a reality
 sure
 @lungwitz, Buenos días. Venite al grupo en español
 @klaus
 https://t.me/UBPorts_ES
 (Sticker, 512x512) https://irc.ubports.com/hjUiTuKN/file_2847
 @dohbee you might know this one. If i start a subprocess in an app does it inherit the same confinement as the parent process or would i need to start the subprocess with `aa-exec-click` to ensure it has the same confinement?
 @DanChapman, children are in the parent's cgroup and under the same confinement and lifecycle requirements
 that's how it's supposed to be, anyway
 brilliant, thanks!
 @Stereofont, Yes, but I like being in an English speaking group anyway
 Cool. You can of course be in both 👍
 (:
[15:02] <tgBot> Mustafa Dagdelen was added by: Mustafa Dagdelen
 Hello Mustafa and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @Tina119, mao zedong killed all that culture. Now China is trying to dig some of it back up.
[15:06] <tgBot> <Mustafa Dagdelen> @Crash_Burn, Thank you @Crash_Burn and Hello everyone
 @Stereofont, much less complete
 @Mustafa Dagdelen, Hi Mustafa.  Welcome!
 @Mustafa Dagdelen, If you would like intro/assistance you can use the Welcome Room link
 oh why does ubports want to override the recovery?
 quick question, how many fulltime engineers does ubports have now?
 @profetik777, howdy!  what does 'engineer' mean?  do you mean people who are engineers for their full time job and enjoy being part of UBports?
 I'm a full time UBports Audio Engineer.  Do I count?
 @profetik777, It would be very easy to be misled by a simplistic answer to what you ask. Why do you think "fulltime engineers" is a useful measure?
 for now he only asked a question. a question is nor good nor bad. Lets wait what conclusions he draws from the answer. i am also curious anyways.
 althoug " full time engineers being part of UBports" does not mean "engineers working on UBports full time". Can be engineers who work full time somewhere else and also are part of UBports when time permits :D
 It's easier how many people are full time in UBports?
 Nope, answering a question meaningfully needs context. Both to understand the question and to ensure the answer is useful.
 ah sorry, software developers working full time on ubports
 full -time and/or full-time paid
 @wayneoutthere you always count no matter what...lol
 For example, suppose some phone company wants to be sure that UBports is "adequately supported" to incorporate in a product. The number of "fulltime engineers" is a bad measure as it badly underestimates the support available.
 @KrisJacewicz, I want to KICK  your ass……kris💩💩
 I read all this at once and my face was like WTF?
 Hahah
 @profetik777, As-in developers who are paid from community donations and have a long-term contract? Only one. But we and our sponsors hire people for shorter periods of time to work on specific tasks regularly. Also, we have loads of community devs, of course.
[16:25] <tgBot> <Rocco 3> Kris, how can launch Lazarus IDE from my PC command line? All is installed properly
 But i agree with what Alan said, full-time employees is not a good measure of success and/or level of support
 @lungwitz, yes, sometimes the supergroup goes 'super'.  For example we have discussions of full time engineers mixed in with sensitive Chinese culture talk.  Fun for the whole family!
 @neothethird, the measure of success is whether or not we are moving forward and breaking ground.  If you measured our success per dollar spent we would be featured in Fortune 500
 I know full time people who sit in their chair and pick their buttocks from 9 to 5
 but wait! there's more from wayne... … There are also full time 'people' who should be doing their day jobs but who end up doing UBports full time!  … ... like me :(
 @wayneoutthere, 😂😂
 @Rocco 3, if u used updated installer script the the command over ssh is start-lazarus … if you used previous i staller (before yesterday) then the command is full path: … ~/.local/lazfpc4ut/fpc3/lazfpc3
 updated installer sets path in .bash_profile so without sudo it makes start-lazarus command global. But only over ssh because UT Terminal app ignores .bash_profile (idk why)
 While we can all site scenarios and cases where full time software devs are not productive etc., the question is really asking about Ubports specifically...not from the perspective of some entity who would use only 1 measure of success evaluating whether or not something is "worthy" of partnership, etc... which by the way,  I do not think any organization would ever do (base it on 1 measure).
 @Rocco 3, you will aslo want to know how to make the app scale up to full screen. bu default it is tiny. PM me and i ll tell u everything u need to know. some time this or next week will update wiki with demos.
 I recall there was a desire of having more than one full time dev from Marius himself, and curious if that is a goal that ubports is shooting for?
 aside from the pros and cons of measurements etc etc.
 We could probably afford it, but at the moment that's not our biggest concern
 also, we want to wait until all our paperwork for setting up the foundation is done
 because that will make hirering easier
 @neothethird, Ah, noted.
 Setting up the foundation is fundamental.
 it's in progress, but german beaurocracy takes forever
 @neothethird, we dont know why the question was asked. we just assume why. Maybe it was just out of curiosity. i also agree that small number of full time people in UBports means it is badly supported. Well motivated people can do great job even in less than full time hour workday. Peraonally i am VERY impressed how UBports is happening. The website is beautiful. The GUI installer and custom images are beautiful. The work is organized and thing
[16:47] <tgBot> are happening. Feedback is listened to and addressed. I think it is being carried out in a way more proffessional way than you would expect by looking at available resources. Quite spectacular if you ask me.
 *does NOT mean it is badly supported
 maybe it is because it is text form, i find a hint of defensiveness, esp. since no one here claimed it was badly supported in any shape or form.
 it was a pure question.
 out of curiousity, if that needs confirming.
 @profetik777, +1
 @profetik777, ok, sorry about that, wasn't intended that way. I know you're a good guy, given your history with the project i'm happy to see you here again now
 thank @neothethird
 The about question of support was mine. But only as a hypothetical to illustrate why the context of the question matters.
 and never stopped my monthly giving bc i totally believe in the importance :D :D :D
 despites patreon's weird rule change 😐
 Thanks, that's much appreciated
 If you want to get away from patreon, we also have liberapay now, their fees are a little lower
 cool ill have to check it out
 https://liberapay.com/UBports
 @alan_griffiths, i understand it was hypothetical and i dont want to drain it or anything but just a second thought a propos. If someone really asked that question in a context u used as an example, why not to openly andnproudly admit that the number is very low. Would that not be very meaningful as in: hey look how great job we do with so little resources, and understand how amazing we will become once resources grow.
 @profetik777, it's weekly though, so be careful :P
 what would everyone here recomend as the first programming language to learn with the reasoning behind that decision as many say one or the other but not why for example some say pYthon some say C annd some say Java but the thing missing is the reasoning behind it
 i guess if i was looking as an angel investor on the current work of ubports team i would rate it as solid!
 @XavierXX, i would recommend object pascal because it is much easier to learn, and easier to read than c-like languages, and because your salary is likely to be higher than with most popular languages. Although it may take longer to find job because there are fewer listings. You can uae free and open source compiler and IDE to target all popular and leaa popular platforms and all the things you learn you can also use later on in other languages
 but you wont be able to write windows drivers or linux kernel modules aith it. otherwise anything else is fine.
 @XavierXX, I think you'll get all of those answers here.
 @XavierXX, Different programming languages address different types of problem. I'd recommend one that supports the type of work the student is motivated by. What sort of programming interests you?
 @alan_griffiths, a great answer much better than mine!
 @XavierXX, With python, javascript and some dialect of c (in that order) you'll be able to do almost anything. Number one priority when learning in your free time should be, that its a language that is fun for you to work with and that can be used in an area you're interested in.
 @XavierXX, English :)
 @dohbee, lol
 i am quite intrested in security but i am also quite intrested in being able to build my own tools
 I'm personally drawn to Python due to its popularity and how easy it is to get most simple tasks done (especially commandline tools). Other people will give you a lot of different answers.
 @neothethird, Ummmm.... YAY! :D
 I always scour Jan's posts for secret nuggest of information!
 What do you mean by "security"? It makes a big difference whether you are talking about encryption, app isolation or the internet.
 @XavierXX, build your own tools, that sounds like a python job. Security? That can be anything
 @UniversalSuperBox, There's a lot of Python syntax that many people will find upsetting, but I find really nice to write. For example, the other day I wrote: … ```if "stuff" not in list and "other stuff" not in list: …     things to do```
 @wayneoutthere, 😂
 @wayneoutthere, ewwww 🙊
 but i think the most important thing for me would be to be able to learn a language that would learn me important aspects in programming that would also be usefull in other languages
 Each language will have slightly different names for things, but most C-based languages (read: pretty much all of them) will have the same concepts.
 @UniversalSuperBox, if(stuff not in list)and (othersruff not in list)then … begin … //do some stuff … ens; … //can be valid pascal code that compiles
 @KrisJacewicz, i use python sometimes one thing important to notice is that it's an interpreted language
 Right, it's not compiled so it will be slower than most compiled languages in most tasks.
 that is sometimes what you want and sometimes not what you want
 and i am also quite intrested in embedded hardware
 The most important is a good book to read. The language is not so important.
 @UniversalSuperBox, yes but there are advantages too
 more flexible you can modify program at run-time
 or generate code at run time and execute it
 @XavierXX, There are microcontroller boards that use Python, but the beginning embedded development platforms (Arduino) are heavily C-based
 andnpython has somw really nice librariea easy to use like opencv and other ones i have less or none experience wirh
 also great wrappers around process execution, pipes, even vte, thus great for writting automates scripts that include commands rhat require interactive terminal. for example it is quite easy with python to wrap sudo and things like that.
 Mhmm. Requests, BeautifulSoup, Bottle. All really great libraries to do the most boring tasks available. As well as the `multiprocessing` and `threading` standard libraries
 python is great for confidence building, and then tearing it down when you learn your code is super broken and insecure
 @neothethird, is there a long german compound word for this?  This could be my word-of-the-day
 because you can write stuff totally the wrong way and it will seem like it's working correctly, because it's so dynamic and forgiving
 True.
 i like to mix python with pascal very much especially when dealing with opencv and even sometimes with artificial intwlligence, specifically training artificial synapse networks
 So... does that answer your question at all, @XavierXX ?
 yes thank you all :)
 @wayneoutthere, ahahah
 there used to be a lot more full time engineers. alas
 so that's pretty cool.  I moved my patreon to Libera pay.  It's actually very nice system!  Who set it up for UBports?
 Mario Grips
 that sounds like a nintendo accessory
 trademarks
 http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/20170914_033821_thumb.png
 too late
 Damn.
 literally what comes up when you search for mario grips on goog images
 It's better with the word 'test' … Mario Grip Test … That's like those machines where you squeeze as hard as you can to impress your girlfriend at a carnival
 @UniversalSuperBox, the only problem is that Gripsmandu has blacklisted me, I think....
 maybe he uses facebook...
 You mean, blocked? :P
 hmm, what exactly is a flatpak
 It's a package
 sort of
 but i mean, the "package" what exactly is it?
 ie, a snap package is a squashfs
 It's ostree thingie
 So there are layers iirc
 so it gets unpacked to somewhere on the filesystem?
 More or less yeah
 ok, so i guess what i want is something somewhere between snaps and clicks/flatpaks
 xkcd standards? 😆
 😛
 Jk
 eh
 though i wonder how well snap scales
[18:28] <tgBot> Aditya Pujari was added by: Aditya Pujari
 after installing Linphone 'flatpak' I also was thinking how similar snaps and flatpaks behave... i don't understand the backend stuff but my first experience with flatpaks was relatively good.
 @Aditya Pujari, Hello Aditya and welcome! I'm part of the UBports welcoming team. … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 Hello Aditya \o/
[18:30] <tgBot> <Aditya Pujari> Ok thanks
 @dohbee, Agreed, esp. when it comes to shared libraries vs sandboxed libraries - who decides what will be shared to avoid redundency and what will be standalone - which was the pitch for snaps
 well i meant a bit more lower level in terms of scaling, than that :)
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/i1ad1Qgu/file_2848.mp4
 oh...nm
 heh
 snaps have some design limitations which make certain things really annoying
 but squashfs is interesting
 Have you checked AppImages? Security is shit for it but concept is awesome
 so snapd is kind of interesting to test out the scalability of squashfs with regard to inode consumption and such
 But still again.. scalability issues are there in AppImages
 ile Subsurface-4.6.4-x86_64.AppImage  … Subsurface-4.6.4-x86_64.AppImage: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=783ad4749a42b2e09fedee6b1b69accd9e010fe4, stripped
 huh
 anyway, i think appimage has some of the same issues as flatpak there. it's designed to be used for user apps, not system services and such
 For system services, I still prefer deb packages. For user Apps, I like AppImage. I hope AppImage gets a nice cli for it's AppImageHub so you can install AppImages more easily.
 eh, i'm trying to find a way to get rid of debs (or rpms/tgz/aur/whatever)
 I don't think we're going to find one
 well snaps work for that, but snaps aren't designed well for apps
 so yeah, it's pretty apparent that to achieve what i want, i'd have to write another packaging system
 Or you could improve the existing ones so that they'd do what you want
 (the one i wrote previously won't do here either)
 Snaps are interesting, but those interfaces seem too complex for the "casual developers". In this aspect, Flatpaks or even .click packages are more "dev/user friendly"
 @sverzegnassi, +1
 I found flatpaks extremely easy to package my apps with
 and I was never able to figure out snaps
 and clicks are not even a thing to discuss, even a kid would succeed in packaging .click
 Well, I guess we're the winners then, aren't we?
 so much winning
[20:21] <tgBot> <Rocco 3> @KrisJacewicz, Yes, thanks.
 appimage can be "sandoxed" with firejail and they have a nice delta binary update
 with AppImageUpdate
[20:45] <tgBot> ChrisB was added by: ChrisB
 @vanyasem, Interesting. They feel snappy or snap-like on my side so I cant complain about my first flatpak. If they can help roll out convergence and faster it and they has my vote
 @ChrisB, Hello ChrisB and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 Fwd from Mattia: Guys, i've got a problem. … Seems that fixupmountpoints script doesn't work
 Fwd from Mattia: + mount /dev/block/bootdevice/by-name/userdata /data … mount: mounting /dev/block/bootdevice/by-name/userdata on /data failed: No such file or directory … + mount /data/rootfs.img /target … mount: mounting /data/rootfs.img on /target failed: No such file or directory … + mkdir -p /target/data … + mount --bind /data/ /target/data … mount: mounting /data/ on /target/data failed: Invalid argument … + mount … rootfs on / 
[21:10] <tgBot> devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,relatime,mode=600) … sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime) … proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) … + DBG_REASON=
 Fwd from Mattia: Everytime i compile halium i get this:
 Fwd from Mattia: halium/hybris-boot/Android.mk:67: ***************** /boot appears to live on /dev/block/bootdevice/by-name/boot … halium/hybris-boot/Android.mk:68: ***************** /data appears to live on /dev/block/bootdevice/by-name/userdata
 @Stereofont, Hi Lionelb, thanks and I will have a look
 @ChrisB, If there is anything we can help you with, join the Welcome Room
 @wayneoutthere, Canada's Multiculture is fully reflected here
 what you talkin aboot eh?
 hahaha
 @dohbee, don't turn off the lights 😂