 Sorry about your mom @Sick_Rimmit :(
 Yeah, the fact that I hadn't heard of Andrea before you mentioned him made me question why he was going for membership...
 I know genii's ready. He's a cool guy. (And he totally doesn't bribe everyone with coffee. 😉)
[03:39] <valorie> rofl
[03:39] <valorie> I know what you mean
 Well given that Andres was the podcast producer on the audio MP3 shows, designed all the Wily werewolf release artwork, including konwi mascot and website banners, suggests we have a communication coordination problem.
 Also  hlighted is the documentation, for membership and probably mentoring.
 I was already thinking that growing our membership was very hands on, I think a membership journey plan need to be constructed, and that then needs to be put on the website
 (Photo, 1280x960) https://irc-attachments.kde.org/A0USMU4K/file_3826.jpg
 Seems to be fitting in :)
 @Sick_Rimmit, "suggests we have a communication coordination problem" - how can he know what we're working on if he *just* joined our communication channels?
 Additionally, if I was assessing his application for Ubuntu Membership, I would point out that these contributions were done nearly two years ago and him wanting to get involved again shouldn't really justify membership ;)
 Good stuff, sounds like an excellently community growth strategy.
 @Sick_Rimmit, In my honest opinion, membership isn't something one should strive towards, it should be an added benefit to recognize that you have been an active contributor and have made significant and sustained contributions to the Kubuntu project.
 Yeah  I already figured out you brief viewed it as a badge of honour.
 @Sick_Rimmit, That's... The definition of membership...?
 Well, the way I described it. (Not sure if your interpretation is different.)
 It's not a badge of honor, it's recognition that you're a member of the project.
 And honestly a few good contributions, no matter how decent they were, don't justify membership in my opinion if they haven't been significant and *sustained*
 s/don't/doesn't/
 Not to say I have anything against the guy, but that's what membership means. I can appreciate the push towards it, but the fact that I've not even heard the name before (and I'm not the only one who hasn't) makes me wonder if the contributions have been significant and sustained.
 (and I would consider myself a very active Kubuntu Member)
 I would apply the same policy for anyone with a similar application.
[19:42] <clivejo_> Just popped in to say that I am quite angry and upset about how some of you responded to the membership request from Andre
[19:46] <clivejo_> In reply to <tsimonq2> Additionally, if I was assessing his application for Ubuntu Membership, I would point out that these contributions were done nearly two years ago and him wanting to get involved again shouldn't really justify membership ;)
[19:47] <clivejo_> what justifies Kubuntu membership?
[19:49] <clivejo_> my main reason for applying was to proudly hold a kubuntu.org email address and because I was asked to
[19:50] <clivejo_> and quite frankly, today I am ashamed to be associated to it
 @clivejo_, Significant and Sustained contributions to Kubuntu.
[19:52] <clivejo_> well Andre has been contributing long before you even got involved with Ubuntu
 Has he been contributing recently?
[19:53] <clivejo_> he has been helping Rick with the Podcast
[19:53] <clivejo_> and was interested in helping on a marketing team
 Why hasn't his name been brought up at all before this then?
 "interested in" =/ significant and sustained contributions
[19:54] <clivejo_> go back on the Podcast logs
[19:54] <clivejo_> his name pops up quite a lot
[19:54] <clivejo_> he doesn't like IRC or emails
 The podcast hasn't ran recently, it's just been the Kafe, no?
[19:55] <clivejo_> so is that a requirement for membership?
[19:56] <clivejo_> I haven't contributed in a month now
 That's a requirement to get it, not to keep it
[20:04] <valorie> hmmm, do we need to fight?
[20:04] <valorie> I think perhaps we need to clarify what membership means
 ...we're fighting?
[20:04] <valorie> just read up
 Membership has already been clarified...
[20:05] <valorie> ok
 It's Significant and Sustained contributions to Kubuntu
[20:06] <valorie> to me, it is a recognition that one has been contributing and wants to officially say I'm proud to be a contributor
[20:06] <clivejo_> valorie: +1
 Right, that's what I mean. That's what it is.
[20:07] <valorie> to clarify what I said yesterday, I think Andre has been contributing, but his communication to the wider community needs to improve
 It's recognition of being a project member
[20:07] <valorie> Telegram will help him with IRC
 @valorie, How? I still don't get it.
 @valorie, Right
[20:08] <valorie> but everybody has to use the ML
[20:08] <valorie> it's basic
[20:08] <valorie> tsimonq2: the podcast, and artwork
[20:08] <valorie> the problem was the communication -- many of us weren't aware of his contributions
[20:09] <clivejo_> reading the conversation yesterday felt extremely unfriendly and unKubuntu
[20:09] <valorie> :(
[20:09] <valorie> can you point out anything that felt unfriendly?
[20:09] <clivejo_> and the conversation here following it
[20:09] <clivejo_> like who is he
[20:10] <valorie> well, this was my first interaction with him
[20:10] <valorie> ever
[20:10] <valorie> so, there has been very little of that casual interaction
[20:10] <valorie> that's a first
 This is very much compatible with what I'm saying. Membership should be seeked iff he's an active, known member of the project.
 Fwd from valorie: <valorie> to me, it is a recognition that one has been contributing and wants to officially say I'm proud to be a contributor
 And "known" isn't much
 Just come say hi :)
 From what I can tell, Rick portrayed Membership as a prerequisite contributing when it's in fact the opposite.
 Fwd from Andredelsa: What are the benefits of this membership and.. it's necessary to help you in marketing? Just for ask :)
[20:13] <valorie> clivejo_: I tried really hard to make the meeting positive, because it was a bit of a (&*&% with Rick having to mostly bow out
[20:14] <valorie> but believe me, criticism is welcome
 Exactly this, wxl echos my thoughts
 Fwd from wxl: <wxl> well i don't know if anything's any different for kubuntu than it is for ubuntu, but speaking as a member of the ubuntu membership board, we usually judge applications based on two factors: consistent and significant contributions
 Fwd from wxl: <wxl> i think that artwork is a significant contribution
 Fwd from wxl: <wxl> i'm not so sure about consistent.....
 Fwd from wxl: <wxl> at least i don't see it
 Fwd from wxl: <wxl> maybe your application doesn't adequately detail all the things you have done?
[20:14] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: I don't need it forwarded I read it after being messaged by someone who was equally as disgusted
[20:15] <valorie> this person who was disgusted should have chimed in?
[20:16] <clivejo_> from my POV Rick was handholding him for sure
[20:16] <clivejo_> but most of us have done this
[20:16] <valorie> honestly, we needed more KC and Kubuntu Members at that meeting
[20:16] <valorie> sec
 I think, after reading it, Clive's assessment of it might not be correct (imo) because I don't think it's bad for us to give constructive criticism on a membership application which isn't ready. I think wxl and Valorie did that well. I just think some people who might have personal bias in favor of him (which this sort of thing shouldn't have) might be disappointed he didn't get it. That's my 2¢
[20:17] <clivejo_> yes, I have personal bias on bring people on board who will benefit the project
 I don't see anything in here that could qualify as derogatory or offensive. I just think people aren't happy with the membership results...
[20:18] <valorie> well, I want him to be a Member
[20:18] <clivejo_> I know for a fact that Andre is a good hard working contributor based on seeing him over the years
 @clivejo_, That's different than objective evaluation of a membership application
 @clivejo_, And I'm not doubting that, but he didn't make it clear in his application
[20:19] <valorie> and I'll be happy to give him a +1 when he's a bit more engaged with the wider team
 Fwd from tsimonq2: From what I can tell, Rick portrayed Membership as a prerequisite contributing when it's in fact the opposite.
[20:19] <clivejo_> but I also believe that senior members here should be guiding new members into the fold
 @valorie, Agreed
 @clivejo_, Also agreed
[20:19] <valorie> clivejo_: as I said, this is the first time I've talked with him
[20:19] <valorie> I'm in the podcast channel, btw
 Rejecting a membership application shouldn't be portrayed as rejection of contributions but rather doubt that he is fit for the thing he's applying for.
[20:20] <valorie> we didn't reject it
[20:20] <valorie> we didn't have a quorum
[20:20] <valorie> I don't doubt he's fit
 Well, maybe rejection is a strong word, but you get what I mean
[20:20] <clivejo_> Rick has had personal issues to deal with
[20:21] <valorie> but he needs integration into the wider team
[20:21] <valorie> he did
[20:21] <valorie> it was very unfortunate
[20:21] <clivejo_> someone else should have took over and guided him
[20:21] <valorie> and Rick did what was righg
[20:21] <valorie> right
[20:21] <valorie> clivejo_: that's what I was trying to do
 @valorie, Right, but I'm thinking that objective evaluation of the application would result in denial of the application. Prove me wrong, please.
[20:22] <valorie> well, none of us are objective
 Right, but we should review it objectively.
[20:22] <valorie> since there was not a quorum, it can be brought to the ML
 I'm particularly interested to hear wxl's thoughts on this matter, fwiw.
[20:22] <valorie> and the vote can take place on the ML
 Alright, I'm looking forward to it.
[20:26] <clivejo_> it pains me to say it but Kubuntu now is not the Kubuntu I joined
[20:27] <valorie> please give me more specific criticism clivejo_
[20:27] <clivejo_> the sense of team spirit
[20:27] <valorie> well, I did the best I could, in the midst of another meeting
[20:27] <valorie> there was no doodle
[20:28] <valorie> just a last-minute announcement
[20:28] <valorie> honestly, I've not seen such a casual application before
[20:28] <valorie> I was taken aback by that, but did the best I could
[20:28] <valorie> welcomed wxl's help
[20:29] <clivejo_> from my POV it would have been better to explain that there wasn't enough people there to meet quorem
[20:29] <valorie> which I did
[20:29] <clivejo_> as english is not his first language a simpler explanation should have been given
[20:29] <valorie> there were lots of mixed communications, starting with sending Andre to the wrong channel
 @clivejo_, I disagree on your team spirit point. I think that this was handled how it should have been.
[20:30] <clivejo_> someone should have made a point of helping him get his wiki page up to standard
 @valorie, Yes that was a doodle, 5 folks respond nded
[20:30] <valorie> imo if anything could go wrong, it did
[20:30] <valorie> oh
[20:30] <valorie> :(
 It was posted to users and devel
[20:30] <valorie> that is my bad that I missed that
[20:30] <valorie> :(
[20:30] <valorie> my apology
[20:31] <valorie> I usually see wiki pages in advance, and give some help with it
[20:31] <valorie> didn't happen this time
[20:31] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: well yet again we are on polar opposite POV
 Yes I helped Andra prep his stuff
 @clivejo_, Indeed.
[20:32] <clivejo_> but my appeal is to the Kubuntu Council
 I also don't agree with you on this matter Simon
 @clivejo_, So is mine.
[20:33] <valorie> clivejo_: yeah
 @Sick_Rimmit, How so?
[20:33] <clivejo_> that is my honest opinion and feelings on what happened yesterday
 I don't agree on you evaluation of what membership means and represents
 Sorry guys I have to leave this for now, please please don't fall out about it
 It's good to have different pov
[20:34] <clivejo_> Kubuntu is "friendly computing", the KC is "The Friendly Council"
[20:35] <clivejo_> I did not ask or initial want to be a member
 @Sick_Rimmit, Note that I'm stating my opinion as a member of the Ubuntu Membership Board, who delegates Kubuntu Membership abilities to the KC, and I think that his application for *Ubuntu* Membership indirectly should not be approved (as imho he isn't ready yet), but I don't speak for the full board.
[20:36] <valorie> yes, I would have welcomed more friends there
 @valorie, Right
 @clivejo_, Friendly sometimes isn't compatible with keeping consistent rules.
[20:36] <clivejo_> I was guided by friendly people and felt part of something important
[20:36] <valorie> anyway, I think what he needs is more communication, and I think that will happen soon
[20:37] <valorie> know that he's plugged in via Telegram
[20:37] <valorie> once he starts using the ML even minimally, goal achieved
 @valorie, Right
[20:39] <valorie> lots of us don't like MLs, lol
[20:39] <valorie> I don
[20:39] <valorie> t
[20:39] <valorie> but it's a tool, like everything else
 Right
[20:40] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: the Kubuntu Council was in existence before there was even talk about a Ubuntu Membership Board
 @clivejo_, Before the UMB existed, the CC delegated that to the KC, and now delegates it to the UMB. And wxl seems to share my opinion, and is on both.
[20:42] <valorie> child o' Jon, for sure
[20:42] <clivejo_> well good for you and wxl
[20:43] <valorie> um, what does all this have to do with anything?
[20:43] <valorie> we had a partial failure of a meeting
[20:44] <valorie> and I hope we'll do better next time
[20:44] <clivejo_> Dear wxl and tsimonq2, I hereby resign my membership
 @clivejo_, Ubuntu or Kubuntu Membership?
[20:47] <clivejo_> Dear KCC, I hope you will listen to my points of view
 Because you can't do one without the other.
[20:47] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: thankyou for pointing that out
[20:48] <valorie> oh clivejo_, I'm very sorry to hear you say that
[20:48] <valorie> :(
[20:48] <valorie> breaks my heart, really
 Agreed, but it's his choice...
[20:49] <clivejo_> breaks mine too, I've invested a lot of time and energy
 @clivejo_, I still don't get why you've left.
[20:50] <valorie> you don't have to do this
 @valorie, Right
[20:50] <clivejo_> its done
 We'd appreciate it if you'd stay...
 :(
[20:56] <valorie> well, this sucks
[20:56] <valorie> I need to get ready to go - have a volunteer slot at the library for my genealogy society
 Have fun!