[00:06] <Sander^home> Hi, Just got an update to e4.5, nice! but all the phonelogs got deleted, just like any reboot:(
 Also does mobile data hotspot not work for turbo yet?
 @UniversalSuperBox, That's right.  Americans and Canadians are excluded from the deal.  It has something to do with 'net neutrality' i heard
 @wayneoutthere, Oh boy, you really don't like to keep the peace do you?
 Sure I do. … A Peace of Pizza … BOOOOOM!
 11th cup of coffee people. I"M BREAKIN' RECORDS HERE!!!!!
 (Photo, 1093x747) https://irc.ubports.com/URotIeGt/file_2894.jpg this is what I see
 lol
[02:07] <tgBot> Ismaelbonato was added by: Ismaelbonato
[03:47] <tgBot> SilentSt0rm was added by: SilentSt0rm
 Hi! )
 Tell me please, is it possible install gnome or xfce on ubuntu touch?
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/frWMaS0l/file_2895.mp4
 @SilentSt0rm, No, the whole stack is tightly integrated to work with Unity 8
 What about xmir?
 You're certainly free to try, but I don't know how you'd do it
 I do not know either. But I've seen a video on YouTube where MUTE 1.8 on Ubuntu touch is being bullied.
 *MATE  … ** is being runned
 Hello Ismael and EbreHNN and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 desktop apps doesn't really work on Nexus 5? I saw a bug about this but I think it's early this year since the last update
 it's sad :(
 @Javacookies, Desktop apps don't really work on Ubuntu Touch regardless of the phone. It is possible to get them to run using libertine and xmir, but there are too many issues to say they "really work". … But things don't have to stay that way and likely won't: https://forums.ubports.com/topic/795/running-desktop-applications-on-ubports-x11-wayland-mir-and-toolkits
 yes, I was able to install libertine, create containers and install apps, it worked on my Nexus 7 way before
 @SilentSt0rm, Xmir isn't enough to support a full desktop environment, there are too many pieces missing. (And even if those gaps were fixed I doubt you would get a good experience usiing gnome or xfce on a phone.) … Maybe you're asking the wrong question: what would gnome or xfce allow you to do that Unity8 doesn't?
 @alan_griffiths, I meant deleting mir and installing x11 and gnome or xfce for support desktop apps.
 weee the m10 with ota2 works okish on HDMI
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wImj5A2sI6E
 Because there are very few applications for Ubuntu Touch. But as a very small PC - it would be excellent.
 the browser starts, used to crash before
 there are some bugs here and there, the image doesn't fit quite right, and the image quality is a bit low
 also when you first run them apps they open at a wrong size (really small)
 Anybody know how to use mjpg-stream or alternative software for streaming from camera?
 there are also some other weird stuff, if you connect a mouse on bluetooth, the keyboard doesn't show up anymore
 all I tried was swearing for missing /dev/video0
 ah and i had to connect 3 times to hdmi to work  (plug/unplug), crashed unity8 1 time, second time "not accepted" or something message on the tv
 Throwing the famous two cents. The hope, as a user, is that we won’t need stuff like Libertine in the future. … That’d mean that those universal packaging formats can fulfill the requirements of a mobile distribution. But that time does not seem to be here yet
 in 18.04 gtk2 is beeing removed from the base install
 :D that's great
 gtk3/qt5 can wayland/mir, so as long the apps don't use x11 they should be able to run without xmir/xwayland
 i think
 i see in :wayland  in snap interfaces
 this means... you can run a snap that uses wayland?
 so.. we need like snaps? and then we need the latest mir (so we can run wayland clients)
 and then if you make a snap with gnome-calculator.. should just run?
 don't know :)))
 But first we need to move to 16.04
 I absolutely want desktop app functionality to remain with Ubuntu Touch forever. Choice is cool.
 @popescu_sorin, That's the theory. We should have it working in practice shortly (teething troubles).
 @SilentSt0rm, Start with hallium and build your own stack - it will be easier.
 Anyone got advice on the Pro 5 hotspot problem? I require that to run my M10 or indeed any networked portable device with internet in certain areas e.g. work where there's no WiFi.
 Hey everyone :)
[10:04] <tgBot> AbouWassim31 was added by: AbouWassim31
 @AbouWassim31, Hello Ab W and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @SilentSt0rm, о, Велком )
 @SilentSt0rm, yes you can but perhaps not in the way ypunimagine.
 you can install pretty much any desktip and run graphical session in xvfb and access it via vnc, for example.
 @Javacookies, i use nexus5 and i run plenty of x apps on that phone. i wonder what do you mean that x apps dont work on it?
 @SilentSt0rm, you do not need to do that to run legacy apps.
 @SilentSt0rm, UT device is a PCm think about it, PC os just a box and u need ro connect 3 things to it bwfore u jave a desktop: … 1. monitor … 2. keyboard … 3. mouse … this is what i also do with UT phone and thus for me my ut is a pocket size computer and i run desktop appsnoff of it.
 Hi all. I want to ask if anyother haven't got mobile data working in the last devel on n5
[11:07] <tgBot> kutlay1653 was added by: kutlay1653
 @mixmoto, Another reported that last night. Stable works
 @kutlay1653, Hello Kutlay and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @Stereofont, There is some strange date behaviour too
 @Stereofont, Is its a problem from last days on devel. Thanks
 Confirm, not working on devel N5
 (Sticker, 512x512) https://irc.ubports.com/AWIsehiE/file_2896
 Bug
 Is my problem just a MP5 hardware issue?
 http://forum.flymeos.com/thread-1951-1-1.html
 Affects Flyme too. But different behavior described there.
 @Stereofont, last rc works too in n5
 Pretty obvious, but I have an SD card in the dual-purpose SIM slot and my cut-down Nano SIM in the other one. If that helps diagnosing this issue.
 Posts #15,16 are possibly relevant, but they discuss using dual SIMs rather than a SIM and a card, so who knows.
 @milkor73, Turkish Group Members are growing rapidly
 Sorry
 @milkor73, Do we have a bug for this?
 I will check it
 I have new feedback regarding Data on N5 devel
 I have switched back to stable and now back to devel: and....
 I have 4G connection, everything working!!!
 this is strange
 Latest devel I have is 259
 @Rawcode, Can you try also?
 @milkor73, yesterday i had this issue. i switched back to stable and the to the last rc and it works now
 From devel?
 yep
 Stefano is writing
 slowly
 It is going to be long
 He always knows what where!!!
 hey all, noticed on my webapp, that javascript alerts or confirm box are not displayed. is it a normal feature ?
 What type of webapp is it? does it just use the `webapp-container` command? Or is it generated using the webappcreator app?
 i used alternate-webapp-creator
 qmlscene %u qml/Main.qml
 I think that uses a raw oxide webview so you don't get the alert popups. It needs to use an Ubuntu.Web webview for that
 ok, maybe `webapp-container` would be enough ? my webapps need access to a third part website for authentification (oauth)
 I think the webapp creator fixes these issues https://open.uappexplorer.com/app/webapp-creator.jujuyeh
 i tried with webapp-container in the past but did not work by default
 i will try it, but doing this on my tiny device is not very easy
 @popescu_sorin, Yeah, but which level of integration can we reach by installing standard desktop apps on the phone? â€¦ Letâ€™s say LibreOffice or Firefox are running on phone - UI scaling issue apart - how their file dialog would integrate with the system? Afaik, Flatpak portals can use whatever file dialog is default on the platform, but snaps have no such ability. Snaps can be used for packaging CLI tools, but Flatpak apparently does not. â€
[12:53] <tgBot> we expect from desktop apps on a phone? Should we support Flatpak, or Snaps? And in case, would we need a curated store? Keep or remove Clicks, or would we prefer to use e.g. .deb+overlayroot as a fallback? … Universal packaging formats will probably be the central topic next year, and both Snap and Flatpak are not that ready yet (although they're usable)
 @sverzegnassi, Btw snaps look likely to use xdg-desktop-portal (https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/pull/136) and flatpak can be used for command line utils it just isn't their main focus (https://github.com/flatpak/flatpak/issues/1188)
[13:02] <tgBot> MassimoPeca was added by: MassimoPeca
 Friends, is anyone going to address my questions?
 @milkor73, Wow. I am glad that I didn't update yet
 @MassimoPeca, Hello Massimo and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @malditobastardo, More courage MD 😉
 @SilentSt0rm, If what you want is a pocket PC, I would suggest staying very far away from Android devices.
 @DanChapman, oups forgot, thanks for it
 zanetti
 @milkor73, 😹😹😹
 @developerfect, Good. :) thanks for all your work over there
 @sverzegnassi, Libertine is needed still. It does more than just provide a chroot to install debs into. Even for running x11 apps from snaps, we still need other parts of libertine to connect all of the dots between mir and x11.
 @ahayzen, Yeah, I saw it some months ago, when it was just an early prototype. Cool to see that xdg portals might have a future in Snaps too. … Instead, the CLI tools support in Flatpak seems indeed very partial and far from the common expectation of a “desktop experience”. … But what I really wanted to say is that we should actually define what that “desktop experience” is, because it’s going to change in the following years
 Step 1) Stop using the word "desktop"
 it has no useful meaning
 (please also use the send button in telegram more often, rather than writing long multiline/multi-paragraph posts all together)
 Well others have asked for longer posts from people in the past rather than bullet posts
 The idea should be this: If you present and idea (IE a numbered list) in here you should press send after each one so that each idea can be replied to
 well others are wrong. telegram isn't a web forum, replying to very long posts with multiple separate pieces of commentary is very difficult in telegram, let alone if you're on irc (or maybe matrix, no idea how riot/etc deal with it)
 So if you are talking about your coffee and don't expect a reply, then keep it as one long post but if there are multiple ideas then separate them to allow for reply feature
 This is not the medium for in depth discussions. Instead of a long post on telegram, put it on a blog/forum and post a summary and link.
 @dohbee, This is very interesting topic....  to me desktop means: Non phone size, non tablet, fairly big, but is combined with laptop since their power and hardware are same or similar
 Thats a solid idea
 @wayneoutthere, What most people mean is "x86 general purpose PC" which is still a bit wrong. sometimes people also mean "background icons/wallpaper"
 But very hard to execute. Thats why I made some Labs
 @dohbee, Wasn’t Ubuntu-app-launch supposed to handle snap’d Xmir apps? Just wondering...
 it has no solid meaning as in "this is desktop and nothing else is"
 @sverzegnassi, it does, with the help of libertine's tools, yes
 or well, sort of does, that work was never finished
 @wayneoutthere, well, it's an easy idea to execute. it's hard to get others to follo suit. i've been "executing" it for over a decade :)
 and then there's the whole "PC == Windows" trope
 @dohbee, Yeah, that’s what I mean. My question was indeed “what do we expect from launching desktop apps on a phone”, since I’m not sure that running a regular LibreOffice instance is what I would really need on a phone.
 @sverzegnassi, Well in "phone mode" probably not what you want, but in "i plugged into a 23in monitor with kb/mouse mode" maybe it is
 but "legacy" is a far better term for things like current libreoffice i think
 they are not scalable/responsive apps
 they follow legacy design principles and methodologies
 @DanChapman yesterday I deleted the `.cache` folder on my phone because it was getting too big, but now I opened Dekko 2 and it asks me for configuring an account because there are no account set up... does Dekko 2 stores its config in the cache folder?
 Well, there are "legacy" applications from "phone" as well as "desktop".
 there are no "desktop" applications
 because "desktop" is a meaningless word
 @wayneoutthere, desktop means on the top of your desk. monitor, keyboards. mouse. But when i see posts here like "desktop apps" it is totally ambiguous.  … Anyways, UT is a phone with Mir and all that stuff but ALSO it is an aem based Ubuntu computer. It already is posaible to run on it anything that is compiled forbarm linux (off course dependencies must be met). There are more ways than one to run non native (mir) apps: … 1. Xmir is one w
[14:23] <tgBot> or without libertine/containers).  … 2.ssh wirh x forwarding (wireless or over usb) is another amazing and practical way. but UT was not exploring it and now it still isn't but things get easier. Phablet-shell however does not include x forwarding even though it is more useful with. … 3. hou can start anything in xvfb inluding an entire graphical session with your favorite wm. Be it xfce, lxde, Mate or sth else. Then hou can access ir via vnc or things li
[14:23] <tgBot> like that. … 4. if get any qt5 vnc client to work natively on mor you get a whole new frontier and alternative to xmir … there are other ways as well. … The possibilities are really endless you juat need to do one thing to see this: UT phone/tablet is a normal Ubuntu computer. Yes it has mir and all that, but still.
 (Sticker, 336x512) https://irc.ubports.com/3jhPPuOB/file_2897
 @stuartlangridge, Hi, got this in the logs:  DEBUG notify: caxton.sil_Caxton HnEx81tv8Isk9hO9hfp+Wg== unauthorized
 doh ubports forum gives a 502
 dont worry its being upgraded right now
 and IMHO the line of arguments about apps being dedicated to smartphone scenario (aspect ratio, touc, screen size, etc) are blown out of proportion.  … Legacy apps do not need to be run on the phone's screen. They can run off the phone onto a big screen. And this scenario is crazy practical.
 @KrisJacewicz, what is practical for you is not practical for everyone, nor is it reasonable for most everyone
 @Seumas, Probably better post on the forum. We do not have so many Pro 5 owners here and your questions will get lost
 and please split up posts like that in the future @KrisJacewicz
 Yes, making it seamless instead of "crazy practical" is the "convergence" vision. It will come one way or another.
 @dohbee, wondering, seems like you could be trying to tell that exact thong to yourself. I am happy with everyone deciding on their own. Hou seem to tell us what is good as what is not. Like telling us that those of us who think otherwise about splitting or not splitting messages here are wrong. … Off course I speak of myself.
 https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
 @dohbee, That’s was the point. I concern on usability, and which are the limits on what we should (or reasonably could) offer. For me it would be legit to have a small selection of legacy apps to choose from, but others may want more by default
 ultimately i don't spwnd my days worrying whether or not anhone else will agree with me or not. Some will, some won't. UT doesn't limit you. You limit yourself.
 @KrisJacewicz, well you build a phone that boots up straight to a terminal and deal with supporting it if anyone actually buys such a device
 @KrisJacewicz, no, i don't care what your choice of breaking your device is. break it all you want. what i care about is the default user experience and making things easy AND secure by default, for everyone
 @sverzegnassi, subjectively, i am quite happy with the "defaults". Only thing I notice is that the defaults don't faciliate some aspects. But even then the current default system is quite good as far as im concerned.
 that's an odd statement from someone who advocates remounting / as rw, installing debs and compiling things on device, and creating symlink farms to avoid filling up /, etc…
 @dohbee, and i actually see your concern valid and valuable. … Nust that whenever there is a peraon who is interested in goung outside of your perfect scenario I wish they can go past you to see that they can do many things easilly as well.
 i really don't see anything wrong with the UT defaulting to how you see it. I support it. I just don't agree that anything else is discouraged.
 or considered wrong/bad.
 @KrisJacewicz, nobody is "discouraging" you, so please stop taking personal offense whenever people in here are talking about building ubports (the topic of this channel)
 @dohbee, you discourage others every once in a while when you say that certain things ahould not or cannot be done.
[14:38] <tgBot> Ilya Zhukov was added by: Ilya Zhukov
 the only thing i am discouraging you from, is telling people who come in here with problems having just flashed there device, to do all the "crazy practical" things you have chosen to do, as some means to try and resolve their problems
 @Ilya Zhukov, велком
 all you do with such suggestions is create confusion and cause even more problems for them
 @dohbee, i take this critique
 @KrisJacewicz, i am pretty sure i very rarely say something "cannot" be done.
 @dohbee, i also help out many of them. you dont know because people reach out to me in PM. and I follow up outside of this main discussion.
 when i say something "should not" be done, it is because i have a whole hell of a lot of experience in the area
 @dohbee, yes rarely you do.
 and if i say something cannot be done, it is almost certainly because it cannot be done
 @dohbee, i guess you have a LOT of experience but that doesnt mean you know better.
 Not always, but generally we defer to those with more experience
 @KrisJacewicz, you should not shoot yourself in the foot, but if you really want to shoot yourself in the foot, feel free
 Otherwise we make the same mistakes multiple times
 if you have a gun, go for it. but i'm not going to be the one handing you the loaded gun to shoot yourself in the foot with
[14:42] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> @vanyasem Спасибо. Срач всегда тут?
 @Ilya Zhukov, welp, not really. but happens from time to time
 @UniversalSuperBox, that sometimes doesnt end up as a smart choice. I recommend you to look up "Authority Bias". For example as explained by Rolf Dobelli.
[14:44] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> @KrisJacewicz, I'm just in time. ))
 hey, could you please stop your rant?
[14:44] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> Not for you. Sorry.
 @dohbee, i dont know what you mean
 @vanyasem, we have a new member here, and we're not making a good first impression
 if you really want to continue, do so in our OT group, this is not going anywhere anyways
 @vanyasem, to be honest it is nut a peraonal rant. Its an exchange of opinions. aka discusaion.
 @KrisJacewicz, Ilya just asked me in Russian if this group is always like that. no one enjoys this discussion.
 stop.
 When answering about "can" or "should" assume that the questioner doesn't want to risk breaking the hardware or basic behaviour. I'm sure a lot of "impossible" things can be done by replacing some or all of the hardware. At the very least provide a cavat before remounting rw or resoldering the parts.
[14:48] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> I don't care about this discussion.
 then don't participate in it?
 discuss something else if you wish
[14:48] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> But it's funny.
 do you have a device running UBports? Ilya
 frankly, "the best way to provide support to users of ubports" seems pretty well on topic for a channel about ubports
 @Michele, That's intended as you can't just go and delete the cache without wiping the mailstore database as well. otherwise it will remain in a broken state.
 @dohbee, you won't give up your opinion. never.
 perhaps there is a better way, do you guys think that it would be a good idea to set up additional group dedicated to all the non standard things about UT?
 @vanyasem, so it's not a worthy discuss. you just assume you are always right
 perhaps we could then keep the standard topic here and non standard separately
 @KrisJacewicz, I support your idea
 @vanyasem, lol, that's funny coming from you.
 @dohbee, that is because you have a big missunderstamding for what i say and think since the beginning
 @dohbee, is that because I care for freedom and you don't?
 @KrisJacewicz, i guess i replied to sth you were not saying to me
 @KrisJacewicz, yep ;)
 it is because you seem to think you're always right, and you are unable to have a logical discussion, instead resorting to personal attacks as you have just done.
[14:51] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> @vanyasem, Hmmm... I have Nexus 5 with Ubuntu Touch on board. Is this mean something?
 @Ilya Zhukov, old Ubuntu Touch or UBports?
 anyways i wonder if you guys consoder my odea of making a branchex and dedicated group
 or not?
 I support it
 go ahead
 it is possib sound like that whe
 uh
 sorry my kbd froze. i want to
 suggest that there still be a place to openly talk all the non standard aspects
 and approaches
 for those who wish to
 @KrisJacewicz, i don't think so, but it is quite difficult to help people when you suggest doing very invasive things to their devices while i'm trying to help discover the real problem, for example
 and so i ask if here is good place or maybe there should be a separate place for that.
[14:54] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> Port, ofcouse.
 or when i say things you for some reason disagree with, and seem to take extreme personal offense to, despite them having nothing to do with you
[14:54] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> Разве оригинальная UT была на Nexus?
 there is a separate russian group no?
 @dohbee, so now i would like to try to come up with somethi g betyer
 if you want to speak russian, that is
 @dohbee, i can't unfortunately, but also I think in English it would have a broaded audience
 @KrisJacewicz, for the record, i have no problem with "open discussion" of such things here. i however do not consider it being a response to people asking for general support, to be "open discussion"
 if people ask how to do those things, then sure
[14:56] <tgBot> <Ilya Zhukov> @dohbee, It was quickly, that my English post.
 @dohbee, answered him in PM
 @KrisJacewicz, i didnt see it again. … I appologise my telegram is not as fast as yours guys because im firewalled in China
 @vanyasem, Russian group is shitty btw
 @KrisJacewicz, I don't think it is needed. But I'd be interested. (What you are doing is interesting for the possibilities it opens, but not something that should be offered as a solution unless the questioner is /very clearly/ open to an invasive solution.)
 but if someone is asking for help with basic issues in libertine, or "is whatsapp available" or such, i don't think your suggestions are helpful
 sometimes super invasive solutions are necessary, but that is rare
 @dohbee, yes so I am now wondering to myself how to address this
 and the things you are doing @KrisJacewicz are interesting, but it is super invasive on the system, and not for everyone. and you seem to get super offended when anyone asks you to be a bit more thoughtful about considering others when you make suggestions or long posts
 @vanyasem, maybe it needs more less poopy people in it?  Typically groups are poopy because of the poopy people
 @wayneoutthere, I left it, so you can't complain now
 For example, in some groups two adults will use a supergroup of over 1000 people audience to discuss their styles when they could just use the PM feature.
 @vanyasem, it's your turn now, isn't it?
 @KrisJacewicz, i have been trying to help you understand that, but you seem to get very offended by it for some reason
 @vanyasem, wow there are a lot of caustic people around today!  is there some bad coffee in town?
 @wayneoutthere, Are off-handed remarks like this part of the new AP style guide?
 @vanyasem, just so you know, Ivan, the purpose of my comment was actually to encourage the members to go and find more good people so the bad ones get drowned out  But you interpreted it differently
 @dohbee, its not easy for me to be objective about myself so I did let this critique sink in for a moment. … I also dont want to force these "other" approaches onto people who are happy with the normal standard scenarios. I am however interested in ezploring theae and share as well. So maybe sharing in a dedicated group could be better. these suggestions would only be seen by people who volontarily subscribwd to them.
 @dohbee and @KrisJacewicz take it elsewhere, please.  we all agree and disagree with everything you say however, it's better in a lab
 then those interested can join
 i am, by the way, interested in joining a heated discussion about Desktop"
 But i thoroughly doubt others are
 i am sure many of you understand this inner urgence to share your work out. Well i feel it. At the same time i dont want to share where it seems out of place or intrusive.
 @KrisJacewicz maybe "Don't try this at home" forum topic would be a better place to explore the "cool stuff"?
 @alan_griffiths, exactly
 a focus group
 @alan_griffiths, yes maybe in deed
 so what exactly is the purpose of this channel if not to discuss things relating to ubports? just to welcome people?
 that's a valid question.
 maybe there should be a "welcome channel" instead that people are first sent to join rather than this one, and then it can be happy and just welcome messages and hugs or whatever
 guys there is a way to enable spacebar vibration?
 well, we know what it is *not* but we are working also on what it 'is'.
 @Rawcode, this is example of what it *is*
 i also admit i dont know what does and what does not follow under this channel purpose at times. It is the only such channel I know where I share because of not knowing a more suitable one
 @Rawcode, should work if feedback is enabled in settings, same as when you press any other key, iirc
 @KrisJacewicz, fair. this is an issue.  we know.  The main issue is that we don't have perfectly clear goals. however, allow me to speak my mind
 @wayneoutthere, i will say that more channels == bad, in my experience, especially for smaller projects like this is
 Kris - you are skilled developer.  Many people like what you have to say.  However, you are working towards goals that may not be lined up with the group's goals.  This might be because the goals are not clear.  Let me ask you a straight question:
 If I asked you to develop something that was in the group's interest, would you do it?
 @wayneoutthere, I think that uncalled for. Both are talking about the meta-topic of how to make this list effective, That's on-topic.
 @dohbee, yes, feedback is enabled. the other keys vibrate, only the spacebar doesn't
 @Rawcode, i'm in the last RC
[15:09] <tgBot> Denis D was added by: Denis D
 and Rodney - your points are great but for some reason they ignite rants.  I don't think this is your plan, but it happens.
 @alan_griffiths, and also on the 2nd thought forum and chat group are differently useful. I suddently (after reflecting upon it) don't think that forum would be a satisfactory substitute to a chat group. Even if on its own it is interesting.
 I have the same skill set.  I speak straight and people don't like it.
 @wayneoutthere, mostly it seems to be useful discussion. a rant would be more one sided with someone just spewing useless drivel constantly
 @wayneoutthere, i am not sure that this is his fault. also i am not sure rhat rants are bad thing.
 @Rawcode, That's because the spacebar is now used to move the text cursor. It's strange for feedback.
[15:10] <tgBot> <Denis D> Hello everyone, I am trying to find a guide to install Ubuntu Touch on my GT-i9300 Samsung galaxy s3. it seems that the image download links are dead. any tips?
 @UniversalSuperBox, ah right, i think this is a bug then
 @Denis D, https://ubports.com/page/get-ubuntu-touch
 i somwhow think that thru these   rants some good content comes up.
 it's not supported
 if you tap, you should get feedback, but if you hold you should get cursor movement
 you can't install UBports on it
 and so we can't give you a link
 if someone ported Ubuntu Touch before, ask the original author
 @dohbee, exactly
[15:12] <tgBot> <Denis D> @vanyasem, I checked the page and it does state that the support is at 15% but i know there has been a working ubuntu touch port back in 2013
 @Rawcode, i would suggest opening an issue on github, assuming there isn't one
 @Denis D, it's not supported in 2017
 sorry
[15:13] <tgBot> <Denis D> https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s3/orig-development/discontinued-ubuntu-touch-13-10-builds-t2315397
 Alright, who breathed on the forum wrong?
 @UniversalSuperBox, @Flohack said it was being upgraded
 too bad stuff has to be on cloudflare
 @Denis D, do you jave some source saying that it was available? maybe with that source some info can be found that wouldballow to track that supposed old image.
 @KrisJacewicz, You missed the message again.
 i appoligize, it is very embarrasing
 sorry, Kris I failed to use the mention so maybe you didn't read this one: … @KrisJacewicz - you are skilled developer.  Many people like what you have to say.  However, you are working towards goals that may not be lined up with the group's goals.  This might be because the goals are not clear.  Let me ask you a straight question:
 @wayneoutthere, being blunt and objective, and being rude while doing so, are not the same thing. the former is fine, while the latter is not. we have a Code of Conduct for a reason, and it's pretty clear :)
 @Denis D, it literally says DISCONTINUED
 @dohbee, agree, but we are mostly non-english speakers so many times people dont' understand or the tone is misundertsood.  that's also a factor
 I meant 'english-as-a-second-language0
 @vanyasem, github links are alive, you could try building it yourself Denis
 @KrisJacewicz, i think telegram doesn't handle lots of discussion with lots of people in a group, very well. i'm on gigabit on the web site, and several comments have been slow to appear for me this morning
 @wayneoutthere, i am seeing this now but still scrolling to see what was the question you asked that followed
 sorry edited
 @dohbee, I agree with you. Actually I reported this in github 2 months ago
 @wayneoutthere, if it was within my ability than i would off course be sincerely interested
 @wayneoutthere, yes, but this is also why i've learned to avoid subjective terms and try to state things more objectively and scientifically over the years, and try to use RFC style for subjective "should" and such
 I don't like the touch pad thingy anyways. I prefer the magnifying glass tool like in iOS. But that is just my opinion
 Just my 2 cent @KrisJacewicz in the German group someone complained that while he tried to install Lazarus IDE he got some problems. Turns out he thought this is our official App SDK. I must say, you still do not stress enough that it is just your personal toolkit. Users get confused, we have to explain and they blame us why we are so unorganized.
 @KrisJacewicz, awesome!
 @Flohack, yes i see this is as a problem i  would genuinely like to avoid this
 @dohbee, @Rawcode Seems there's already one: https://github.com/ubports/keyboard-component/issues/19 … Looking at the PR that introduces the cursor movements, seems that the usual behavior of the spacebar has been overridden, but haptic feedback has not been kept. I'll try to look at it in time for OTA-3, if possible.
[15:21] <tgBot> <Denis D> @vanyasem, thanks, i will try to build it myself. do you know how much ram ubuntu touch uses?
 @KrisJacewicz, maybe whenever mentioning lazarus, you could always say "Lazarus SDK (Unofficial)" or such
 @malditobastardo, ah great. at least it should be easy enough to fix with a little timeout handling in the code
 @Denis D, to be honest, I don't think it'll worth your time. It's most likely a very old build
 @vanyasem, well the old work might still be somewhere, and what is today discontinued might still be picked up, you never know
 @sverzegnassi, very kind of you
 and s3 is a really old hardware, it could be slow
 @KrisJacewicz, if it was 13.10, it was very likely using SurfaceFlinger, and would likely be not good on Mir
 I remember @Flohack trying to play with the i9whatever S3 at some point but Odin finally got to him
 ie, the same reason nexus 7 2012 was ended
 Also.. it might be using really old kernel
 And would need e.g glibc recompiles
 @dohbee, after hearing this i will stress it much more. marking it with unofficial or DontDoItAtHome is all fine with mw because I dont want to encourage situations likenone that Florian mentionned
 yes if it doesn't have android 4.4 available, it would also be problematic
 @UniversalSuperBox, Dont get me started. But it booted and WiFi worked ^^
 and the lights
 But not graphics 🙃
 Me hides now
 Hey @bhushanshah wanna help me do some fun initrd hacking
 Sure, PM?
 @dohbee, i had to read about SurfaceFlinger, does it mean currently UT no longer ises it and what it uses instead is not compatible?
 Mir replaces SurfaceFlinger
 @KrisJacewicz, it hasn't used SF in a very long time
 and some devices have graphics where the drivers are very unhappy with Mir
 @UniversalSuperBox, just out of curiosity, since Mir speaks a new protocol, does SurfaceFlinger cares about that?
 @KrisJacewicz, there is no SurfaceFlinger to care about it, on ubuntu
 oh joy, the forum is back
 @dohbee, because when Mir started being  used the SurfaceFlinger was already gone... it just lighted up a light in my head as i wonder if SurfaceFlinger could be used in UT again but as a yet another mean for realizing leagacy apps. This might not be interesting to many people but I just started reading about it and wondering if I could make my UT to switch between the two on demand
 i can finally read Alan's post
 FWIW using surfaceflinger was "hack"
 @KrisJacewicz, i don't think so. it doesn't make any sense to try to use surfaceflinger here, and it will just introduce yet more problems
 the way forward for legacy apps, i think, is getting the wayland-on-mir stuff working, and relying on xwayland
 as suggested by Alan at https://forums.ubports.com/topic/795/running-desktop-applications-on-ubports-x11-wayland-mir-and-toolkits/3
 Sorry about the long downtime on the forum, I was gonna do a quick update, but something failed to build so had to revert, next time I need to copy it and to it offline upgrade first
 the initial "jump" is non-trivial, but it will mean less things ubports needs to maintain in the long run, and will likely work more reliably than xmir
 @mariogrip, Famous last words 🙃😜
 @Ilya Zhukov, Hello Ilja Zhukov and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @Denis D, Hello Denis and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @dohbee, so to me i care very much about accellerated rendering. On Xmir renderinf is quite slow and on xwayland i only know it uses glamor but jave not properly tested it yet. Trying to see if SurfaceFlinger had this addressed. … Unless for example it is made officially a goal to have xwayland handling legacy apps with accelerated graphics. I just dont know if that's the case.
 Surfaceflinger was NOT about legacy application rendering
 It have nothing to do with application rendering
 @bhushanshah, yes it was about just rendering
 framebuffer to screen
 @KrisJacewicz, xmir is fast enough for some people to play steam games via libertine on x86
 or omly about drawing a ready framebuffer out?
 @dohbee, yes i was told that that is the case on x86 but not on ARM
 @KrisJacewicz, well run xterm under xmir and type "glxinfo|grep -i core" and see what it says
 but anyway, once the wayland stuff is working, xmir can probably just be totally dropped
 this part made me wonder about SurfaceFlinger possibly allowing fast rendering: … "(...) The Hardware Composer HAL (HWC) was introduced in Android 3.0 and has evolved steadily over the years. Its primary purpose is to determine the most efficient way to composite buffers with the available hardware. As a HAL, its implementation is device-specific and usually done by the display hardware OEM.(...)"
 i would stay away from SurfaceFlinger
 it is not going to be helpful here
 @dohbee, alright i will do that. but before i do I know that xmir on arm is slow from actually running apps. I once shared a snake game i made and that one is the most obvious in my testing because I can measure fps. And on my MX4 os much slower than on my raspi, which should not be the case.
 also i have tested some 3rd party games on xmir and also ssh forwarded gui apps from desktop onto the phone under xmir and some were slow. some were not, I thing it had to do with how your app handles compositing.
 @dohbee, i ll just end up reading about it for refference then
 @KrisJacewicz, ssh forwarding is slow on my gigabit and 802.11ac, so of course it's going to be slow under xmir on a phone
 @dohbee, i mean even taking that into consideration. I used x compression and tested against raspi. And my MX4 has betyer hw specs than my raspi does.
 There's a whole raft of possible  reasons for such performance problems. The Mir team were tackling them (some of that work comes with the latest Mir), but we first need to get better Wayland support before looking at performance again.
 @Flohack, Huh. Ok. I’ll look into it. When did that happen; when you tapped “get a code for an app”?
 Just caught up, even skimming that was a long read :) Glad civility is prevailing.
 @Flohack roger that, will raise the issue in the forums soon. Very important for a daily driver to rock hotspot, and sad if an MX4 can do it but Pro 5 can't (again maybe in certain minor/specific ways I bit off a little more than I could chew by opting for "turbo plus"?).
 Another question regarding the phone. On Gnome System Monitor it says it has 32MB SWAP and it's consistently at or near 100% usage with several apps being jumped between. Feel slightly disconcerted about that, but are my misgivings misplaced? Considering it sports 4GB RAM and even under normal multitasking usecase, it doesn't use all of that memory. Also, I see that MX4 rocks 512MB SWAP. Is this another potential consequence of going for turbo plus r
[17:12] <tgBot> turbo vanilla?
 @Ilya Zhukov, Hello Ilya and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @Rawcode, There are two controls for keyboard vibration. Do you mean a separate space bar vibration?
 @Flohack, i think we definitly need a documentation to have a quick overview of how things works, which langages to choose, packaging, howto build, etc... )to to avoid such problems
 @vanyasem, Благодарю. )
 @SilentSt0rm, do you have a device running ubports:
 Yes. Meizu MX4.
 oh, cool
 MTK, right?
 Right.
 i have bad news for you
 it won't be supported for long
 it can't be supported by Halium and we're slowly moving to Halium as a base
 oh Bitva Ekstrasensov is back on
 gtg
 I want to run octoprint server and use device as printserver for 3d printer. ) But i can't run stream form camera and can't run ftdi usbserial.
 does camera work
 Yes, camera is work ok, but mjpg streamer not working.
 post `ls /dev/video* -l`
 Video0 is not present
 it should be
 here's an output from Nexus 5: … ```~$ ls /dev/video* … /dev/video0  /dev/video2   /dev/video33  /dev/video35 … /dev/video1  /dev/video32  /dev/video34```
 moving to localized Russian group for this discussion
 @SilentSt0rm, we have an issue here. does anyone know why /dev/video* devices may not be present on Meizu devices? and camera by itself works
 @vanyasem, Because android cameras aren't Video4Linux devices.
 @UniversalSuperBox, why is it present on Nexus 5?
 and is there a way to work around that?
 Uhm... Rewrite the app to use the Ubuntu camera
 do you have a link to api documentation for it:
 https://api-docs.ubports.com/sdk/apps/qml/QtMultimedia/Camera.html?highlight=camera
 thank you
[18:52] <tgBot> DylanVanAssche was added by: DylanVanAssche
 @DylanVanAssche, Hello Dylan and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 Thanks :) I'm a SFOS user but I was always interested in Ubuntu Touch :p
 @DylanVanAssche, Have you got a UT compatible device?
 No I haven't, the Oneplus X isn't supported (yet). … The rest are Jolla devices :p
 Difficult to select a device at the moment but if you want to play without spending much money, Nexus 5 used is an obvious choice
 If my Oneplus X breaks, I will buy a Fairphone which is supported by UB and SFOS. The Nexus 5 is indeed a good option to play around with.
 👍
 If you were to choose six months from now, the options might look very different
 And Lionelb is my colleague 👍
 I can wait :p
 Meanwhile, if you can get a BQ tablet,  those are very interesting
[19:11] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> I am curious if anyone else is experiencing a similar issue as I am. I am experiencing wierd MMS issues, I have a Nexus 5 (hammerhead) on 15.04 r2 and my telco is Ting (which uses the T-mobile network but with a different APN) I can receive pictures but I cannot receive group messages and when I send a message to a group the members in the group receive individual messages.
 @Brian Saia, You are talking about standard text messages?
 SMS?
 MMS
 Yes
 SMS but slightly better
[19:15] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont these are mms issues that I am having
 @SilentSt0rm, You'll need to build custom kernel, and camera app needs to use Android API. A custom image for octoprint would be better than using stock phone images.
 @Brian Saia, Has it ever worked and have you checked whether the problem persists in other channels?
 @UniversalSuperBox, Did mms ever work with UT ? :)
 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 Exactly. I just tell people not to mms me
 does anyone still use mms in 2017
 https://help.ting.com/hc/en-us/articles/205421968-Troubleshooting-Group-Messaging-?mobile_site=true
 Text messages to a group are combined into an MMS
 oh
 i forgot that
 thank you
 Oh you mms'd me? Thats unsecure and old school so I don't do it. Make it sound like not having it is cooler
 That does not solve the issue at hand Wayne.
 Do I ever?
 My job is to report and give opinions without basis
 I did however make a bottle in blender today so that was a problem solved
 Thanks @PhoenixLandPirate
 :D
 Guys, my notification led is blinking without any notification
 @Brian Saia, Seems you can alter account settings by logging into Ting.com with your account details
 @Rawcode, I'm in the last rc
 Nevermind, I just received a mail and it stops blinking
 @Rawcode, Get it to predict the lottery next 😉
 @wayneoutthere, Yes
[19:36] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, I am aware of that which I why I included that fact in my discription of the problem
[19:37] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, I have confirmed this is not due to an incorrect settings with ting
[19:38] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, I have never got it to work, I have not tried it with other channels
 I had a similar problem eons back when the defaults from my SIM did not match the APN details assigned to my provider by Canonical
[19:44] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, after I created an APN using the information provided Ting I started receving pictures (which is done through MMS) but not group messages (which is also MMS)
 @Brian Saia, Same transmission method but not same [mime?] type?
 Implication is that you are receiving the group texts but they are not being converted into visible form
 Is probably a regression somewhere.
[19:51] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, so in theory I could pull up the logs/DB were messages are stored and see if the MMS'es were received?
 @Brian Saia, Maybe not see the actual text but see the incoming data
 i'm pretty sure it used to work
 Voice clips from groups are received?
[19:54] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, ill test right now
[19:57] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, I can receive audio clips from another device, it is working normally
 Seems unlikely that it has anything to do with your particular network. Something about translating received data into text in the messenger
 There are online intermediaries which will forward SMS via mail
 Temporary workaround?
 https://support.textmagic.com/article/how-to-send-and-receive-sms-via-email/ I don't like or trust this idea but it might work for you until fixed?
[20:06] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, I wish, the problem is when my family sends important, time sensitive information in the form of group messages.
[20:08] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, I try to use this old, insecure technology as least as possible, the problem is most people in my life are not on the same page as I am. 😂
 As it is as secure as a megaphone, no harm in using an equally insecure email intermediary
 @Stereofont, not really equal
 @dohbee, You mean less secure than a megaphone?
 i mean it's more complicated than that
 It would be a very crude approach to the problem but useful until we can get this fixed properly?
 that assumes someone is actively working on it i guess, so that the "temporary" solution is actually temporary
 I wouldnt expect a fix until after 16.04
 I don't think anyone is. So it is down to personal choice. Dirty 'solution' of maybe nothing
 depends on how many things one wants to work around to keep using ubuntu on their phone i guess, but sure
 The incoming data logs would be interesting though, to check whether group texts are reaching the phone is some form
[20:21] <tgBot> <Brian Saia> @Stereofont, do you know what log that would be?
 @Brian Saia, Hopefully someone here will know. If the log contains the group messages in plain text it would be possible to create a script to export them to Notification Sender (from OpenStore ?
 what is that?
 the messages are stored in the db
 You type text in it and it posts a notification. Shopping lists etc
 i think the bit that handles sms/mms is called nuntium perhaps
 I tried to install. It won't
 From January 2017
 @Brian Saia, You will need logviewer if not already installed
 Hi, i'm on stable with my M10 and E5. Switching to rc ist not possible. There are no download starts. Reboot makes not better. Is there a solution ?
 @bin_mal_draussen, When you select rc and move back a page it still shows stable. The label shows what is installed, not what you selected. Ignore that and swipe to the next page
 Yes, i have done so. No switching possible. Switch between stable and dev works.
 @Stereofont, Server is down currently
 @bin_mal_draussen, Dev to rc does not?
 Moment please, i try it
 There were some ghost releases on rc. You have to jump over them
 Device E5 is on devel now. Switching to rc is not working.
 There was an update yesterday. Maybe an addressing or naming error?
 How can i check this? Why on both devices i have this problem?
 My M10FHD and FP2 updated on rc yesterday. Maybe a temporary server error?
 I try it since yesterday 🤓
 Correction: I am still on devel on my M10 and I cannot switch to rc
 🤣 okay, i'm not alone...
 It does say now that I am on rc but I am not
 okay
 For me it never worked rc
 @milkor73, You're on devel?
 Now i try it with my M10 stable. Switch to devel or rc is not possible... 😵
 Notification Server (Npost) installed.  Works but the text is too small to read
 @bin_mal_draussen, M10 devel to stable works
 @bin_mal_draussen, Devel with N5
 Okay
 Ivwil try Fienza stable to rc next
 (Photo, 2560x1440) https://irc.ubports.com/Fh4j7UlF/file_2905.jpg
 M10 update to rc or devel is going wrong
 I can't switch stable to rc
 Devel to stable worked fine
 @neothethird 👆🏻
 Stable to devel working fine
 @bin_mal_draussen, Hmm, i just updated my cooler, seems to work fine
 Devel works now with a new try.
 could you try to reflash without wiping? That way you'll be able to keep your data
 @neothethird, I'll try it
 @neothethird, Has IoT gone too far?
 yes
 Are RGBs in memory sticks really IoT though
 @UniversalSuperBox, haha, Bq M10 HD
 but yes
 @neothethird, Did you change channel? Which channel are you on?
 Was originally on an older rc, updated to latest, switched to devel and back
 no issues
 Odd. I can do anything except select rc
 weird
 Rodney, Kris, let me add some comment to your smart discussions
 I' m just an average user, I do not have kills in programming and so
 I fully understand both point of views concerning what should or should not be done with the system
 most of users, like me, should not use Kris solutions
 but, if those solutions were not available on our system, I will clearly move to Android again
 I' m looking forward to be able to use my phone as my laptop
 this is my idea of convergence
 this is why I moved to ubuntu (and personal hate to android and iOS)
 I guess many users think like me
 @Marcos, i think way too many people get caught up in trying to define what "convergence" means here, and insert their own ideals based on how "PCs" have traditionally functioned at software level
 UT has big potential so, we might jus say which options exists and warn the users to implement or not understanding the risks
 I do not think is necessary to have such a "rude" discussions. I do not think are comfortable for anybody
 Rodney, when i jointed UT under Ubuntu, they explicitly said there will be potential to use Ubuntu desktop applications in our phones. That was simply fantastic
 @neothethird, Just double checked. Devel to rc still doesn't work
 that was convergence to me and I guess foro many
 no matter if we use or not!
 But, to me, UT benefit should be same as any Linux distro. Freedom to do what we want!
 @Marcos, yes, but even with that, there is a whole lot of misunderstanding about what that meant
 @Stereofont, Same here on M10
 @Marcos, Perhaps a better way to put it is that when attached to screen, keyboard and mouse, we expected expanded functionality. That is not quite the same as saying that 'conventional' Ubuntu apps should run on the phone
 Now i flashed my E5 new with rc. I hope, it works. Still installing
 @Stereofont, you don't need an external screen or input devices for it, though they certainly help; that wasn't really the core point
 @Stereofont, I have tried Lionelb so many times, I remember I succeed once to get RC but after 2 updates they stopped arriving and switching back to stable it allowed me to go only to devel
 @Marcos, UT was never meant to be, nor was it planned to be, "same as any Linux distro" though
 @milkor73, Maybe a ghost memory of the ghost rc updates? Depends on the route taken to get here?
 @Stereofont, I think so: ghost updates, the same reason was my morning 4G issue
 @bin_mal_draussen, E5 now on 15.04 (r13)
 @Marcos, It is important and useful to discuss these basic issues. I agree that the tone matters too though
 @bin_mal_draussen, Exorcism 😂
 @milkor73, Deleting update history doesn't help. I tried
 Now i'm try to flash my M10 with UBportsInstaller with rc. I'm sitting and wait whats happen... 🙈
 @dohbee, Have you ever hooked up your phone to a screen with kb/mouse? The second you do you will ask where are all my programs. Its like...this is awesome...but now i want a fully operational Ubuntu distro.
 @bin_mal_draussen, ...reboot... 🙈
 @Crash_Burn, no. nor am i especially interested in doing so. nor i would i probably necessarily ask that question. i'm not a particularly good example of that behavior. i do understand why others might feel this way though.
 @Stereofont, I do what i can 😂
 I agree...i dont know the best solution though. Its nice if we can discuss it though.
 yea...its an option. could be the tail chasing the dog.
 but that doesn't change the fact of how the underlying system was meant to work, or how it must work on top of an android container on such hardware
 @dohbee, agree
 but IME when people say "same as any Linux distro" they really mean that at the lowest levels
 and not at the UX of "oh i can use the same apps on both my laptop and my phone and share data between them easily and all that"
 and they generally seem unwilling to accept that certain things need to work a certain way on such devices
 because no matter what, phones still are not general purpose PCs
 @dohbee, i see this as being an issue from now till forever ;P
 Okay, it's done. M10 is also on 15.04(r13). I have flash it again with UBportsInstaller.
 all android phones don't even use the same bootloader and recovery
 or kernel, or android version or...
 @dohbee, and im starting to ask...why not. Whats the harm?
 Dekko looking different on a big screen is achievable. Probably also some app analogues which don't work well on a small screen but become useful when on a large one
 thats way simplified...i know.
 @Crash_Burn, not about "what's the harm?" it's about how things are built by manufacturers
 Dekko on phone, thunderbird on screen?
 if you want a phone that acts more like a traditional general purpose PC, the Purism Librem 5 is what you want
 anything that shipped with Android is going to fail hard there
 @Crash_Burn, Thunderbird lite maybe
 @Crash_Burn, no, ideally you could use either on either device, if you want
 but that requires tb devs to make things responsive and useful on touch screens
 and scale properly across different screens
 no, i know. thanks. there will never be a nail in the coffin im afraid
 yep....this is a long road...but GNU/linux is used to that
 im enjoying the ride! =)
 honestly, i don't think linux is the future there, unless it makes a serious fundamental paradigm shift
 which i doubt will ever happen
 @dohbee, it has proven that in the past, look where it has gotten. thats the beauty of linux, anyone can pick it up andmove a fork in a new direction.
 You mean that incremental will lead inevitably to a dead end?
 @Crash_Burn, not quite what i meant :)
 fixing little things here and there, writing new drivers, etc… is not what i mean. i mean moving away from the fundamental design of how linux works today, to something like an exokernel design
 the monolithic design is a security and compatibility nightmare
 ooohhhh...i gotcha now
 I didn't understand exokernel
 Something more organic and modular?
 it's a type of design for a kernel. linux is monolithic, xnu is a microkernel
 yeah, the kernel itself would then be very small, and drivers are separate from it
 So nanokernels that make and remake their own linkages?
 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Exokernel_revised(english).png
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exokernel
 heh
 Brilliant minds…
 or maybe even just a microkernel would be enough here
 So the software would be an AI type?
 Is it also like the gnu hurd project ?
 hurd is a microkernel i think
 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd
 Project from 1980
 90
 Hmm. So Nix OS to play with
 We will see what the future will bring 🙂 now I am very happy with Ubuntu touch. Goodnight everyone
 only 32-bit though
 @dohbee, Ubuntu convergence concept was same code for mobile and PC systems. Then, graphic interface self adapted to the installated hardware. Installing any ubuntu application to the mobile was a consequence in case of compiled for such arquitecture
 as ubuntu discontinued ut, that approach is not realistic but, again, I m on this system because I expect freedom to use as I want instead of havin android or ios limits
 to me, that is the added value of ut
 i can install any app built for arm in debian/ubuntu on android too
 so, again, I think the secure approaches you propose and i.e. Kris 'dangerous' approaches should be shown to the users. Alltimes advertising the pros and cons. Each user will decide which one is better for him!
 @Marcos, I take Rodney's point that Android phones are not x86. A limited range of compatible analogues (which may seem identical to the user) do seem realistic though
 @Stereofont, well, there are x86 android devices too, though very few
 Rodney, I do think any user which wants to install a deb package would prefer to do in Linux than in Android
 I really think UT is for Linux entusiasts?
 Android is a Linux
 https://www.xda-developers.com/guide-installing-and-running-a-gnulinux-environment-on-any-android-device/
 I think there us a general sense here that '16.04' will be Ubuntu exactly as experienced on a laptop. If that is what people believe they are going to be very disappointed, come the day. We do need to give more clarity about what actually to expect
 those users would have been really upset if canonical had finished up the 16.04 images and released something
 because it would have been snaps
 I know that Android is using Linux kernel. But does not feel like Linux due to how restrictive and closed is. I m talking like a user
 @Marcos, there is no such thing as "a user" here. everyone has different needs and wants from a device.
 There is the 'no Google' element, which is important. 16.04 is important but in the sense of being a better constructed foundation, not yet a more attractive and convenient house
 I agree on that. What I mean is that if I compare how Android or UT interacts with me (as user), UT reminds me much more my pc distro behavior
 perhaps because of it being unity, but really, many things in UT were modeled after iOS
 @Marcos, UT doesn't bully and control
 @Stereofont, not entirely sure what that is meant to mean
 @dohbee, It doesn't say 'you must use our proprietary services and hand over your personal data to do with as we please'
 you don't necessarily have to do that on Android either
 @dohbee, Lineage, true
 but there are plenty who would have disagreed with you on that point, when we required ubuntu sso login to install apps
 @Stereofont, From my personal point of view, if UT on 16.04 continues working as today dors (smoother, I guess), that is good enough. Specially because it has potential embeded which could be easily used in the future (I hope!)
 @dohbee, I would have disagreed with me on that point 😂
 @dohbee, When my wife bought an iPad and I had to connect it to my laptop through apple software after registration and confirmation of my data, just providing a simple mail address for using the store (no confirmation was needed...) I had a huuuuuge feeling of freedom. But I agree would be better if that was unneeded as well 🙂
 alas, i haven't the resources to build out the things which live inside my skull
 Seems like an exokernel could start off extremely small and co-habit with a conventional kernel. So the resource to begin a shift could be quite small?
 at this point i probably wouldn't start with that
 Late. Thanks for the insight. Needs some more reading
 maybe in a few months i'll be able to do some interesting stuff
 Regardless any opinion, disagreement, etc. once again, thanks to the people which makes this project possible! Great work!!!!
[23:55] <tgBot> 蔡 荣诠 was added by: 蔡 荣诠
[23:55] <tgBot> <蔡 荣诠> Hi，everyone
 Hello!