 That is sad to hear about clive. :(
 I guess he has issues, and I can even slightly understand some, but would have to disagree. Just walking out and resigning team memberships like that bemuses me though.
[07:35] <wxl> i think it's just a pile of frustration of different things, but yes, probably not consitent with "stepping down considerately" :/
 Good morning friends
 Can anyone point me at some definitive documentation on what constitutes kubuntu membership, and why and on what circumstances someone should apply.
 O have a sense that I have been a little too do-ocratic
 But also I feel that I don't quite understand clearly what kubuntu membership represents
 https://community.kde.org/Kubuntu/Policies#.7Ekubuntu-members
 Thanks Rik
 Ah ha, now that is a great doc, and indeed it appears I am wrong in my interpretation of membership
 However, I still feel that Andrea has provide a sustained contribution. No matter he can run his application again in due course
 In other thoughts, would it make sense for all of that document to be on the website ?
 There is some 'elastisity' to that definition IMO. The ubuntu one is a bit more general
 "We look for sustained and significant contributions. While there is no precise period that we look for, it is rare for applications to be accepted from people contributing for less than 6 months. If you are unsure if your contributions constitute as sustained and significant, ask your team mates and other Ubuntu members. Maybe they can even add some kind of endorsement to your application. "
 IMO if Andrea makes soem recent contributions for a shortish period, then should be ok
 Actually I think that might be better
 Yes
 The plan is for him to take on the role b of marketing manager
 I am still working on role definitions in the Phab Wiki
 good way to earn his pips then
 But Andrea is quite energised
 I don't think it knocked him back too much
 I have discussed it with him briefly
 I think he is OK
 I feel very sad that clivejo has left, although I understand this has been developing for a while
 he liked it when we were the 'Jon and harald show'. I guess this was coming
 Maybe he will move over to the Neon team, still making contribution
 I am sure he will keep doing the magic some where
 @Sick_Rimmit, I'm glad, the intention was not to hurt him in any way but to tell him where he needs to get to ;)
 Also, one more point that I'd like to make, while Ubuntu Membership is not what he seeks, the same guidelines should generally apply...
 I had a conversation with one of the original Kubuntu people and what I got out of it was that we're on the same page about what Membership means.
[20:04] <clivejo_> wxl: can I have some guidance on why you think I have not been consitent with "stepping down considerately"?
[20:08] <clivejo_> and no "he liked it when we were the 'Jon and harald show' "
[20:08] <clivejo_> I liked it when the team worked together to solve problems
[20:09] <clivejo_> not taking Qt development to a private telegram channel
[20:10] <clivejo_> and trying to take sddm and calamares upstream to Debian so that Kubuntu Developers can't work on it
[20:15] <tsimonq2> clivejo_: It was *not* a private Telegram channel, I put the link in #kubuntu-devel, but now that Qt is no longer a Kubuntu-specific thing, and I'm working on Qt packaging as part of both Lubuntu and Kubuntu, there was no need to do it in #kubuntu-devel.
[20:16] <clivejo_> who decided that Qt is no longer a Kubuntu-specific thing?
[20:16] <tsimonq2> But I'm sorry you didn't see the link and the notices we had before *you* broke *your* system by not waiting for a KCI nightly before updating your system.
[20:17] <tsimonq2> As people who work on Qt packaging, acheronuk, myself, mitya57, and some UBPorts folks decided to all work together on it.
[20:18] <tsimonq2> And if anything, you are *more* than welcome to propose *any* patches upstream in Debian to sddm and calamares and we will *happily* accept them but I am sick and tired of getting harumphed at by Ubuntu Archive Admins and the Ubuntu Release Team because we can't freaking work with Debian.
[20:18] <tsimonq2> If anything, I discussed *both* of these before I did them.
[20:18] <tsimonq2> Where were you?
[20:18] <clivejo_> so as a consumer of Qt packages, that group of people didn't think that a quick email to kubuntu-devel woulld have been a considerate thing to do?
[20:19] <clivejo_> can you show me a log of where you discussed both of these things?
[20:20] <tsimonq2> It shouldn't have been a problem to update Qt packages in the *pre-alpha* development release after *all* the appropriate no-change rebuilds were done and *all* the relevant flavors were tested, and even then, the emails were on bionic-changes and I did say something in #kubuntu-devel. The email to kubuntu-devel would have been redundant.
[20:20] <tsimonq2> You can find them on irclogs.ubuntu.com as far as I'm concerned, clivejo_
[20:20] <clivejo_> in which channel?
[20:20] <tsimonq2> #kubuntu-devel and maybe here too.
[20:20] <tsimonq2> Also it took up like a whole day's conversation in #ubuntu-release.
[20:21] <tsimonq2> You would have seen it if you were paying attention to any one of the development channels we regularly talk in, is my point
[20:22] <clivejo_> well I can't see it in my logs
[20:22] <clivejo_> which is why I asked you to point me to the public logs
[20:23] <tsimonq2> They're there. irclogs.ubuntu.com. I have things to work on and can't be bothered to find logs of a discussion we had a month ago about a Qt that's already landed and discussion that was in multiple channels.
[20:27] <tsimonq2> And anyways, if you have the unstable KCI PPA enabled, the *least* you could do is check the packages being installed/uninstalled on every system update.
[20:28] <tsimonq2> So, I don't know what to say...
[20:28] <clivejo_> fine, but from POV as a previous Kubuntu Development I think we should have been involved in any decisions relating to Qt
[20:28] <tsimonq2> The active Kubuntu Developers have been. I invited you to the channel and you declined. That's on you.
[20:29] <clivejo_> you invited me AFTER the fact
[20:29] <tsimonq2> I didn't.
[20:29] <clivejo_> you did
[20:29] <tsimonq2> I specifically invited you *before* we landed it.
[20:30] <clivejo_> when and where did this invite happen?
[20:30] <tsimonq2> #kubuntu-devel iirc
[20:30] <tsimonq2> irclogs.ubuntu.com
[20:33] <clivejo_> you keep stating this, I have searched the logs and can't find this invite
[20:34] <tsimonq2> That makes me wonder, because I *did* say something.
[20:35] <clivejo_> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/11/22/%23kubuntu-devel.html
[20:35] <clivejo_> the first mention of a Telegram group that I can find
[20:36] <tsimonq2> hmph, I could have sworn I linked you before that...
[20:37] <clivejo_> and please note you pinged me and told me Qt 5.9.2 had migrated
[20:38] <tsimonq2> It wasn't *just* me in this channel, acheronuk was there too. So I *didn't* do this by myself, either way...
[20:39] <clivejo_> but it was you and wxl made such a huge deal about santa learning how jenkin works on his own hardware
[20:40] <clivejo_> about the importance of the ML
[20:40] <clivejo_> can you not see how hypocritical that is?
[20:41] <tsimonq2> The difference between that and this is that Santa didn't involve *anyone* else. He didn't have public PPAs, public uploads, public discussion. He did that by himself. And by the time everyone was involved that was, it was probably redundant to send an email to kubuntu-devel.
[20:42] <clivejo_> the fact that "now that Qt is no longer a Kubuntu-specific thing" is of huge importance to the Kubuntu project
[20:43] <clivejo_> it is the foundation of the project
[20:43] <tsimonq2> But it's no longer unique to Kubuntu. The main discussion *shouldn't* happen in the Kubuntu channels.
[20:44] <clivejo_> where was this discussion made?
[20:44] <tsimonq2> In a central Telegram channel.
[20:44] <tsimonq2> And in #ubuntu-release.
[20:45] <tsimonq2> And a little in #ubuntu-devel iirc.
[20:45] <clivejo_> Qt has historically been under the Kubuntu Devel umbrella and why it is in Kubuntu packageset
[20:45] <tsimonq2> And?
[20:46] <clivejo_> then Kubuntu should be involved in any discussion on that changing
[20:46] <tsimonq2> Kubuntu was involved.
[20:46] <tsimonq2> Kubuntu Developers were involved.
[20:47] <tsimonq2> Rik was involved, I was involved.
[20:47] <clivejo_> well that is one Kubuntu Devel
[20:47] <clivejo_> there are others
[20:47] <valorie> imo Qt has been beyond our control since Ubuntu began using Qt for Unity
[20:47] <valorie> we had to wait for updates longer than we wanted, etc.
[20:48] <tsimonq2> valorie: And now that isn't the case.
[20:48] <valorie> and we didn't have the manpower to take it back
[20:48] <tsimonq2> (the slow part)
[20:48] <valorie> right
[20:48] <clivejo_> valorie: quite true, but we had feedback on what was happening in kubuntu-devel
[20:48] <valorie> true
[20:48] <valorie> lots of grumbling
[20:48] <tsimonq2> clivejo_: It's still broken?
[20:48] <tsimonq2> I think not.
[20:49] <clivejo_> and we got to test it in KCI to see if there was any issues
[20:49] <clivejo_> I've no idea
[20:49] <clivejo_> I'm on Qt 5.9.3
[20:50] <tsimonq2> So you've added the CI Train PPA for Qt 5.9.3?
[20:50] <clivejo_> no
[20:52] <clivejo_> anyway, just going round in cricles
[20:52] <clivejo_> I would like to know why you think I have not Stepped down appropriately
[20:53] <clivejo_> so I can address it
[20:54] <tsimonq2> clivejo_: I think it's hypocritical that you're criticizing me for not using the mailing list even though it's redundant yet you didn't say you were leaving on the mailing list.
[20:54] <clivejo_> the only issue I could identify was access to the Linode server of which Phil, Aaron and I had access
[20:55] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: I officially stepped down last year
[20:55] <tsimonq2> Oh?
[20:55] <tsimonq2> Did you send something to the mailing list?
[20:56] <clivejo_> all of my contributions have been behind the scenes on KCI
[20:56] <tsimonq2> But did you send something to the mailing list?
[20:56] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: yes, on both -devel and -council
[20:57] <tsimonq2> I can't find it, where is it?
[20:57] <clivejo_> you are being petty now
[21:01] <tsimonq2> Am I/
[21:02] <tsimonq2> Just giving you a taste of your own medicine, clivejo_.
[21:03] <clivejo_> it was discussed at length last year after my brother was almost killed
[21:04] <clivejo_> since then acheronuk has been doing the bulk of the work
[21:05] <clivejo_> I have also been pushing for the appointment of a full time release manager to work on the project
[21:06] <tsimonq2> How would that happen?
[21:06] <clivejo_> how would what happen?
[21:06] <tsimonq2> clivejo_> I have also been pushing for the appointment of a full time release manager to work on the project
[21:07] <clivejo_> I don't know
[21:07] <clivejo_> my idea was a paid role from Kubuntu funds
[21:07] <tsimonq2> If you haven't figured that out, then what's your case for pushing it?
[21:07] <tsimonq2> oh
[21:07] <tsimonq2> hm
[21:07] <tsimonq2> maybe
[21:07] <clivejo_> but that idea is not supported by the KC
[21:08] <tsimonq2> This is the first I'm hearing of that idea.
[21:08] <clivejo_> the case is that it is NOT fair relying on the contributions of one person
[21:08] <clivejo_> and not having any backup or support
[21:08] <tsimonq2> Agreed, we should have someone be paid to work on Kubuntu
[21:08] <clivejo_> well it is no secret
[21:09] <clivejo_> tsimonq2: it is not for you or i to agree to
[21:09] <clivejo_> the KC control those funds
[21:10] <valorie> I'm not against the use of funds, but it would need a plan
[21:10] <valorie> and a funding model
[21:10] <clivejo_> but again we are drifting from the point
[21:10] <valorie> we have funds, would be good to spend them on something for Kubuntu
[21:10] <valorie> but I have a birthday party to prepare for, so going afk
[21:10] <clivejo_> I am NOT happy with being accused of not stepping down considerably
[21:11] <clivejo_> what are the issues I need to address?
[21:11] <tsimonq2> I, for one, assumed you were back, and that you just left suddenly.
[21:13] <tsimonq2> But wxl made that claim, not I, iirc.
[21:13] <clivejo_> I left kubuntu-devel because there was no reason for me to have it
[21:13] <tsimonq2> Why?
[21:14] <tsimonq2> (Why do you say that?)
[21:14] <clivejo_> because I'm not a Kubuntu Developer
[21:14] <tsimonq2> When did that change?
[21:14] <clivejo_> I told you when it changed in -devel channel
[21:15] <tsimonq2> But did you send something to the mailing list?
 I'm moving to GTK
[21:16] <tsimonq2> I thought you were joking?
[21:16] <clivejo_> why do I need to send something to the ML
[21:16] <tsimonq2> Because you *always* need to send something to the ML, *riiiiiiiiiight*?
[21:16] <clivejo_> no
[21:16] <clivejo_> your funny
[21:19] <clivejo_> https://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=Clive+Johnston&sponsoree_search=name
[21:19] <clivejo_> no uploads since I stepped down
[21:20] <clivejo_> I was happy enough doing my own thing with KCI
[21:29] <clivejo_> no, I wasn't joking. I moved to PureOS
[21:29] <tsimonq2> Why?
[21:30] <clivejo_> because my Kubuntu install was broken
[21:30] <tsimonq2> Why?
[21:31] <clivejo_> because the update to Qt broke it
[21:31] <tsimonq2> And why didn't you check the packages that would be uninstalled before doing the upgrade? (Because I assumed you have the KCI Unstable PPA enabled, no?)
[21:32] <clivejo_> I only enable KCI when I believe it to be stable
[21:32] <clivejo_> this update was from the archive
[21:32] <tsimonq2> Did you check if it uninstalled packages?
[21:33] <clivejo_> yes
[21:33] <tsimonq2> And did it?
[21:33] <clivejo_> no
[21:33] <clivejo_> it was broken
[21:33] <tsimonq2> What broke?
[21:34] <clivejo_> I don't know
[21:34] <tsimonq2> And did you send something to the mailing list?
[21:34] <clivejo_> you are just winding me up now
[21:34] <tsimonq2> But did you?
[21:35] <clivejo_> you know I didn't
[21:35] <tsimonq2> Why didn't you?
[21:35] <clivejo_> because it is +1 bionic, things break
[21:36] <tsimonq2> Then why didn't you cope with it?
[21:36] <clivejo_> I have no way to grab the packages I needed to downgrade
[21:37] <tsimonq2> Then how did you install PureOS?
[21:37] <clivejo_> and I had a PureOS iso burnt to DVD
[21:37] <tsimonq2> Ok, then why didn't you use that to reinstall?
[21:37] <clivejo_> installed it from DVD
[21:37] <clivejo_> I did reinstall it
[21:37] <clivejo_> I was on PureOS for almost two weeks
[21:39] <tsimonq2> Reinstall Kubuntu>
[21:39] <clivejo_> I didn't want to
[21:39] <tsimonq2> Why not?
[21:39] <clivejo_> because it involved downloading an iso and reconfiguring
[21:40] <tsimonq2> No it doesn't
[21:40] <tsimonq2> https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/installation-guide/amd64/apds04.html
[21:40] <clivejo_> to be back in the same position as I was before
[21:40] <tsimonq2> You obviously had some old KCI packages installed
[21:41] <tsimonq2> acheronuk's install went fine
[21:41] <clivejo_> fair enough
[21:42] <tsimonq2> So you could have reinstalled and it would have most likely been fine.
[21:42] <tsimonq2> But you didn't.
[21:42] <tsimonq2> That's on you.
[21:42] <clivejo_> I didn't reinstall Kubuntu because I don't want to use it any more
[21:42] <tsimonq2> Why not?
[21:43] <clivejo_> because it is a decision I have taken
[21:44] <tsimonq2> Do you no longer have interest in Kubuntu?
[21:44] <clivejo_> I no longer feel part of the team
[21:44] <tsimonq2> Then why are you here?
[21:44] <tsimonq2> It takes two to tango. :P
[21:45] <clivejo_> because I want to know the outstanding issues
[21:45] <tsimonq2> But I thought you didn't feel like part of the team any more?
[21:45] <tsimonq2> We'd be happy to have you
[21:46] <clivejo_> it feels like a personal attack
[21:46] <tsimonq2> What does?
[21:46] <clivejo_> that I have just felt issues behind
[21:46] <clivejo_> the comments made earlier today
[21:47] <tsimonq2> Couldn't you solve the issues privately with the people who said those things?
[21:47] <tsimonq2> And if not, why didn't you send it to the ML?
[21:48] <clivejo_> well I did think it was dealt with privately
[21:48] <clivejo_> but obviously not
[21:48] <tsimonq2> So did you send something to the ML?
[21:50] <clivejo_> I am not on the ML any more
[21:50] <tsimonq2> You can still send emails to the ML
[21:51] <clivejo_> do you want me to wash all my dirty laundry in public?
[21:52] <tsimonq2> No, but you *always* need to send something to the ML, *riiiiiiiiiight*?
[21:53] <clivejo_> including your personal "mission" to have a certain someone kicked off the project?
[21:53] <tsimonq2> Who?
[21:56] <clivejo_> you are making me very angry.  Could someone on the KC please identify the issues and strings I need to resolve
[21:57] <clivejo_> acheronuk has been given access to the Linode server.  The old KCI server (blue systems) is available for use for experimental work
[21:58] <clivejo_> ie on the new KCI if required
[21:58] <clivejo_> acheronuk should also have access to that (he can ping me if needs help with that)
[21:59] <clivejo_> the only outstanding thing I can think of is the unstable build on falkon valorie is using via my PPA
[22:00] <clivejo_> maybe a ninja or someone could take that on