/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/12/19/#ubuntu-ops.txt

lotuspsychjegood morning to all06:33
daxlotuspsychje: hi. was dealing with something else, just finished. what's up?06:34
lotuspsychjewe have a request from all the volunteers in #ubuntu-discuss06:34
lotuspsychjecould you guys consider removing the +r so #ubuntu can grow users again? we had like 1800-2000 users before and all volunteers feel its dying this way, give ops power again to deal with spammers?06:35
daxwhat date is that user count from06:36
daxbecause it seems high in general, and seems extremely high for post-matrix.org-restriction -r times06:36
lotuspsychjedax: before the +r users started to drop06:37
lotuspsychjedax: we feel like ubuntu channel should be free, having to register users makes it harder to find us06:38
daxI don't have any contribution to this discussion other than being extremely skeptical of that user count. Will wait for others to pitch in.06:42
lotuspsychjedax: ok thanks for listening, please forward the request to the others?06:42
daxor wait around and see who else shows up06:42
lotuspsychjeallrighty06:42
Unit193Well, do spambots count as higher numbers?  Because that's certainly much higher without the registration requirement. :P  This past wave that was all over freenode gladly skipped #ubuntu because they all fell into #ubuntu-unregged.06:44
lotuspsychjecan we give support in #ubuntu-unregged?06:45
Unit193No, there's a bot telling them how to register and join #ubuntu.06:45
lotuspsychjeso how to filter the real users support and the bots?06:46
lotuspsychjesome users have no clue what register means06:46
lotuspsychjeand just ned an ubuntu issue solved06:46
Unit193I'm going to presume they've at least once in their life registered an email address, credit card, or something such that they understand what 'registration' is...06:47
lotuspsychjethats the ideal yes Unit193 :p we in real life there will always be newbies that wont understand06:48
lotuspsychjei think someone made a traffic graph of #ubuntu of our volunteers, ill check who it was06:49
Unit193lotuspsychje: Your argument right now is that some people may not know what 'registration' is, and may have a hard time following directions?  Yet you think #ubuntu would be a good fit?06:49
lotuspsychjeUnit193: no, our argument is that #ubuntu looks dead at many times right now, instead of the past showed us many more help was needed06:50
lotuspsychjewe understand the spammers is hard to deal with..but the +r kills also the good users06:50
lotuspsychjecant you guys have a system, when spammers come the +r flag goes temporary and ops have a watch?06:51
elthat would be most of the day.06:52
elliterally06:52
lotuspsychjeel: is it that bad with that spammer?06:52
elyes06:52
elsee how often #freenode goes +qz $~a. right in the middle of conversations and everything06:52
eland even that still doesn't catch all the spam06:53
elwe're getting better at it every day, but the goal posts don't stop moving.06:54
lotuspsychje1 spammer that makes #ubuntu die, so unreal..there must be a way out of this?06:55
el#ubuntu isn't dying and i do wish you'd stop dramatizing it like that to try guilt us into this. and yes, one spammer can do that much when they have the internet of things to run bots on.06:58
elif we go -r #ubuntu _will_ die.06:58
lotuspsychjethat was not to guilt you guys, its just a request el06:58
lotuspsychjefrom 2000 users to 1000 isnt drama, but real fact no?06:59
Unit193Most sites where you post things on require some form of registration, the only one that doesn't that I can think of is 4chan, which is quite unruly.06:59
lotuspsychjeeven if there are 100 bots, still many other users need help in #ubuntu06:59
eli'm yet to see evidence of the claim of "2000 to 1000"06:59
lotuspsychjeel: ben64 made a graph for us07:00
lotuspsychjei will forward it to you guys, when awake07:00
lotuspsychjeel: does other big channels also +r on freenode?07:02
elyes.07:02
elthey use the same foyer method we do07:02
Unit193##linux, #fedora, #archlinux, etc, etc.07:02
lotuspsychjeyikes07:02
elmy memory says that we capped at like 1800 _during releases_ when releases were a thing and ubuntu development was more of a community affair and people actually showed up for the irc parties.07:02
elthe ecosystem of ubuntu has changed in the past decade, a lot.07:03
daxI've been informed that I'm way off on older channel membership counts, so 1) my apologies for being wrong now and in the past, and 2) I'd also be interested in that graph to get a more accurate picture of things.07:03
elthat said, channels with 2000 people in them doesn't mean a good channel. or even a functional one.07:04
lotuspsychjeel: in the past we had a very crowdy support scene in #ubuntu right, nobody can deny that07:05
EriC^^el: it's true, but the channel is dead, the lines spoken / day is half and less07:05
EriC^^than it used to be before the +r was set07:05
EriC^^lotuspsychje is right, it's nothing questionable about that matter07:06
elhow are you gauging the quality of those lines though07:06
EriC^^el: we sit in the channel a lot07:07
lotuspsychjemore users, more support and yes also trolls, we understand that part also07:07
EriC^^offtopic chatter wasn't even allowed at any point, all the conversations are purely support in nature07:07
EriC^^a 'how are you' gets an !offtopic in ubuntu07:07
elone user who is incapable of follow instructions to register, let alone linux commands,  will make a lot of noise, even if it is "on topic"07:08
EriC^^el: from experience most people who used to join without registering used to seek help, and most would be friendly and up for getting help, it's the very minority of people who would do that07:09
EriC^^and to be perfectly honest, lately the amount of noise in #Ubuntu has increased on the contrary, why you ask?07:10
EriC^^because the only people who seek help, are the mid level users who know how to join but are too lazy to do any reading themselves, such as Neo1 for example07:10
EriC^^and many, many others, it's become not a channel where a newbie wanting to use linux and learn joins and seeks help, it's become a i know how to use linux a little, and i will abuse these people to get whatever i want to be done07:11
lotuspsychjeall we ask is to consider remove the +r and see how it goes again?07:12
Unit193We *did* do that not too long ago, and it was fun until the bots started hitting it again.07:13
elwe did for a week, the spammer returned. then when we set it back on, he protested that by hitting up every other large ubuntu channel07:13
elremember all the spam about me and niko?07:13
lotuspsychjeno, we dont follow whats going on really07:13
* el raises an eyebrow07:14
EriC^^we dont mind if a bot spams 2 lines and then gets kicked out by drone07:14
elit's more than 2 lines.07:14
Unit193EriC^^: Bots are faster than people, much more than 2 lines.07:14
elit's 2 lines times the 20 bots he get in07:14
lotuspsychjewho the heck is this guy? cant we just report his botnet?07:15
elno07:15
elthat's not how botnets work07:15
lotuspsychjebotnets are traceable07:15
elthe botnet has connections from every isp in every country07:15
EriC^^this is like sacrificing a few thousand lives for some 'peace and quiet'07:15
Unit193Hardly.07:16
EriC^^we can tolerate some lines of 'noise' more than half the users not getting help and the channel dying and becoming a join/part channel with 1 or 2 questions a day07:16
elit's a support channel that people can register to get in to, not a medical emergency07:16
EriC^^eventually his bots will get exhausted, 1 month maybe ? maybe he will get a life, who knows07:17
elirc is getting replaced with slack and telegram and discord and whatever else have you07:17
EriC^^regardless of the domain, it's a channel for seeking help for a distro that's reknowned for being easy to use07:17
ela large chunk of the population downturn was us excluding matrix because of the vehement complaints about their join/part every time their service fell over07:17
EriC^^#ubuntu is not the same anymore, it's not the same channel it used to be07:17
lotuspsychjewhen +r removed will prove #ubuntu will always be alive07:17
lotuspsychjeworldwide support ubuntu is more alive then ever07:18
EriC^^bottom line, ubuntu is dead, deny it all you want, it's there07:19
lotuspsychjeon weekend, we needed like 20 volunteers to keep up with questions07:19
EriC^^other bottom line, we feel that you've abandoned us, thsi channel was about something, and it's not anymore07:19
EriC^^and quite frankly it seems like ubuntu cares about selling server support and that's about it07:19
daxI'm not sure that conflating Canonical with Ubuntu's ops team is in any way useful.07:20
daxDiscussing getting the botnet taken down isn't either, it's not realistically possible. The rest of this conversation, I'm glad we're having, I think hashing out the qualitative/non-number side of things in parallel with getting hard user and line counts is the best approach.07:21
EriC^^and really im starting to think this is just a 'we want to shut the bot up so we dont look bad' and not caring about the users07:21
EriC^^im not sure that spreading a bunch of rationalizations and bs is either dax, but that's what we're getting07:21
lotuspsychjeubuntu is more popular then ever, in every way07:21
lotuspsychjei think what EriC^^  means we should reflect that also with the main support channl07:21
lotuspsychjedax: what would you suggest that 'could' be done?07:22
daxEriC^^: You're on one side of a not-uncontroversial topic. What you see as "rationalizations and bs" are quite likely honest opinions from people who have been around #ubuntu (same as you) for long enough to be invested in it.07:22
daxEriC^^: just like your contributions are07:23
EriC^^irc is still very relevant, it always will be, and users who install ubuntu for the first time tend to install irc since it's an "old age" kind of tool and they dont know how to register, they just end up (thankfully) in #ubuntu cause the client is set up at that way, and they need help getting started, figuring out something etc07:24
lotuspsychjeindeed07:24
EriC^^i'd just like to make a point in matter that myself i started using linux 3 years ago, and if it wasnt for the friendly atmosphere of the channel i wouldnt have continued using it nor helped other newbies who were joining07:25
lotuspsychjeits good for the OS ubuntu to have such nice support07:25
daxlotuspsychje: The ideal state of #ubuntu, given zero malicious behavior, is -r. One of the more difficult tasks of the operator team is figuring out when changing from that ideal state into one that sacrifices convenience for channel usability is warranted, and keeping track of when that change should be reverted. I think that having conversations like the above in line with quantitative data is extremely07:25
daximportant for figuring out the "when that change should be reverted" bit.07:25
EriC^^and i know everyday people used to join in the same boat and the experience doesnt lie, anyone who sat in the channel a year ago would see the help and support spirit and newbie eager to learn and thankful spirit going on07:26
EriC^^id always see someone join totally new, they get help, then someone else joins and asks and they try to help him, it's beautiful and now ubuntu is just a join/part wasteland07:26
EriC^^dax: no, they are rationalizations, when someone says "well the users are less but that doesnt mean anything" "well the lines are less but what about quality" "well irc is dead now people are using discord"07:28
EriC^^if that's not making excuses and rationalizing i dont know what is07:28
daxEriC^^: Okay. I disagree, but I don't think further metadiscussion will get us anywhere so I'm not gonna dig into that.07:28
EriC^^ok fair enough, you tried your way correct? do you honestly think ubuntu is in any kind of state right now that's good?07:29
daxAre there any other qualitative points to be made (on either side) for right now? If not, I'm already pulling channel activity graphs based on line count, but would appreciate the user count graph when you have them.07:29
EriC^^sit in the channel, and watch, you'll see 1 or 2 questions in an hour tops and the questions will be of the nature i said07:29
lotuspsychjedax: ill forward the graph from ben64 when he's awake07:29
daxand the best bet is probably going to be for the operator team to take all of the above plus all of the data, and if we decide against -r then have a further conversation with y'all07:30
lotuspsychjeok tnx dax and all for the listening07:30
EriC^^i used to help a user every single day to dual boot ubuntu with his uefi issues, heck sometimes i would help 2 or 3 at the same time, i haven't helped a user in ubuntu to dual boot i cant even remember the last time07:30
Unit193lotuspsychje: Have him do #ubuntu+1 while he's at it.07:30
dax#ubuntu+1's a whole 'nother kettle of fish07:30
lotuspsychjeUnit193: okay i will07:30
daxmy strong impression from non-IRC community watching is that a *lot* less users are on devel releases these days, and even non-LTS releases for that matter07:31
Unit193dax: Yes, I know it's quite different in several different ways.07:31
EriC^^if the guy has 60000bots07:33
EriC^^and assuming he joins 1 bot every 20 seconds to flood and gets kicked out07:34
EriC^^we can kick + ban around 4300 a day07:34
daxthe standard tactic for botnets is to join a significant number of bots to the channel at the same time, use whichever ones get in around the +j mode to spam, and then get murdered by antispam07:34
EriC^^that means within less than 2 weeks we would have made  a ban list comprising of his entire 60,000 ip botnet07:35
daxthat's... not how that works. at all.07:35
EriC^^i think tolerating some noise while the channel still thrives is better than the channel dying07:36
daxfreenode, on a network level, contributes to and uses an IP blacklist. the bots that channels see is *after* 95% of them (I pulled this number out of nowhere, I have not analyzed it and don't know how I could) get automatically killed on connect.07:36
EriC^^dont you agree?07:36
daxI think that if your other opinions are correct, we should -r. The task for the chanop team is figuring out whether they are.07:36
EriC^^2 weeks of noise + banning but users and support thriving is better than +r and support dying07:36
daxthe 2 week idea is not in any way based in reality07:37
EriC^^also this is really like shooting the hostage kind of scenario, we can't 'let him win' really, and that's what +r is doing07:37
FlannelEriC^^, dax: I recommend we table this conversation until another day, with time for data and some reflection.  I don't think anything else could be said at the moment that hasn't already been.07:37
daxagreed07:37
EriC^^ok, well thanks for your time07:38
hggdhxpkill23: can we help you with anything?15:52
xpkill23can not in ubuntu.de15:57
geniihggdh: Apparently it's +i16:03
hggdhnot anymore (at least)16:08
hggdhxpkill23: please explain16:08
hggdhxpkill23: so. You are banned from #ubuntu-de.16:32
hggdhxpkill23: you MUST chat with #ubuntu-de operators.16:33
hggdhxpkill23: nothing we can do here.16:33
hggdhxpkill23: now, please /part and engage the #ubuntu-de operators16:33
hggdh@comment 77574 user is banned from #u-de, but does not engage #u-de ops16:40
ubottuComment added.16:40
ender948hi21:07
daxhello again ender94821:10
daxsomething we can help you with?21:19
hggdhender948: please do not idle in this channel. If you do not have anything to discuss with us, please /part21:21
=== Unit193 is now known as JackFrost
=== hggdh is now known as desole

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