[00:52] i would like your thoughts about an issue. [00:52] its about security/privacy philosophy. [00:53] This is sort of shady, but as far as i understand, there are two approaches for handling malicious behavior, hacking, spying and that sort. [00:55] ... [00:55] One is technical, to put it simply, build systems to be safe. To spend energy on doing that, which takes a lot of effort and theoretically speaking I'm not even sure it can be done. [00:56] The other one, is to do social policing, in which i assume the stated rationale is to instead of trying to prevent what anyway can't be prevented completely, arrange a market for it. Do monopoly, that is. [00:58] It have crossed my mind that apple tried to engineer safe systems, to spend energy on making it hard for intruders, while Microsoft went for the market solution. [00:58] I'm basically wondering about canonical, how they align on this. [00:59] like with most things in life "just enough" is good enough for most people until it breaks, then there's an enquiry, recommendations, new rules/procedures, and we're back to "just enough" until the next time [01:01] most of Canonical's efforts are in Enterprise systems and support, and from what I see, for their home-grown projects, the code quality is poor judging by the rapid stream of basic mistake bug reports I see in things like e.g. MAAS [01:01] And for most users, it's not relevant, since no-one except for the random chance event, is curious on them. [01:04] that may be so, but i think the pivotal point is whether they accept payment for such services, directly or not. [01:05] pardon if i'm being slow or autistic in my reading of your comment. [01:08] Canonical makes its money from Enterprise support and services [01:11] for projects that don't originate at Canonical the quality/safety is controlled mainly by upstream although Ubuntu applies additional distro-wide hardening [01:15] I don't expect there to exist any safe spots, but i would at least like to make it harder rather than easier for my intruders. Beginning to realize the software industry at large is dominated by criminals. [01:16] It is? [01:19] Don't know, suspect it to be so. Or maybe that sort of labeling set off a wrong impression. Who knows what sort of social mechanics produced this. [01:21] you're careful [01:22] is this your job? [01:23] what is 'this' ? [01:23] I hack on FLOSS projects, predominently Debian/Ubuntu packages and the Linux kernel [01:28] i think the concept (don't know what its called) applies wider than the software industry, but guess you know. [01:32] don't think i grasped your first comment well, the just enough comment. [01:34] guess i'll ask the question one more time at some point with more activity. [01:35] i'd prefer not [01:35] how could i guess? [01:36]

what is 'this' ? [01:38] "just enough" is the approach where as long as there is nothing obviously wrong no further effort is expended until a bug/vulnerability is discovered, which is then fixed, and then we're back to the "just enough" situation [01:44] i'm not crusading and realize no-one here decided how it should be. [01:47] its an interesting world, some people fix vulnerabilities while others code for having systems more easily accessible (the logical consequence) [01:48] could probably have been formulated better, but anyway. [01:48] those aren't mutally exclusive though; the problems usually come from there being no, or insufficient, design time before throwing code out [02:02] I read you to believing current philosophy is for the better since theoretically safe systems can't be made anyway. But it has to be a secret, since ordinary folks won't understand. Tell you what, system should very well be easily accessible, but please understand that i may be annoyed by the idea that some rich dude practically owning my computer. [02:04] ridiculous ramblings of a madman [02:05] yes, dear readers - observe madness. [02:07] if you're angry at someone rich for what's on your computer, then you're using the wrong software [02:07] you have a choice [02:08] please behave, you're language and mode of expression is unappropriate. [02:08] bot alert!!! [02:09] >:D [02:09] FruitView: *your [02:09] :) [02:09] FruitView: if you want to see an example of your view of purism in action, look at the Replicant project, an effort to create a completely Free Open Source Android for phones. It only works on about 4 ancient devices, it is missing major functionality (like making phone calls). [02:18] you don't want this topic to be associated at all with ubuntu, which is understandable. [02:18] perhaps we should bury it then, talk about something else. [02:19] i'm going to miss unity btw [02:19] cant believe it. [02:21] i'm nothing to do with Canonical or Ubuntu for your comments to be of any concern to me [02:21] its almost like an act of crime to discontinue unity [02:22] what are you then, bitcoiner? [02:23] someone would miss unity?? [02:23] why would bitcoin have anything to do with Ubuntu o0 [02:24] i would guess many people will miss unity, i hope it will resurface again. [02:24] i heard it already got forked [02:25] to me it was like the best in the world of desktops [02:26] not to me. not when it takjes 3 clicks to get to programs I usually dont run] [02:26] i don't use desktop at all [02:26] xfce all the way for me [02:29] don't remember what the software name but i also enjoyed the thing crunchbang did, a simple keypress for menu up wherever you where and all the screen estate available for apps. [02:30] sort of a right click thing with shortcuts to all software, settings etc. [02:32] simple easy quick and without the horizontal bar, which tend to compound to multiple bars [02:32] uneasy for the eyes [02:37] i hope software become politics soon. [02:39] a statement which i intended to link up with screen estate, but the finer point slipped my mind. [02:39] so it can be uninteresting too? [02:39] you're nuts [02:44] think i'll stay around to make sure you don't hurt anyone [02:45] oral arms do bodily harm you know [02:45] i'm telling you, it's not human... [02:46] actually something i contemplate on from time to time, how much do i interact with bots presented as humans? [02:58] anyone here puzzled with battery management? [02:59] i want my battery charging to stop at say eighty percent but from what i read that stuff is to some extent vendor specific [03:00] but i assume it to be some analogous logic between different cases, if you've done one you can do others [06:23] good morning to all [06:23] wb dax [06:25] Good morning everyone :) [06:25] hey alkisg [06:30] hmm 1160 users? [07:28] time to sleep here too(2), gotten late - g nite all o/ [07:39] good morning, all [07:39] hey hey ducasse [07:40] hi lotuspsychje - how are you today? [07:40] great here ty ducasse [07:42] what about you had good days ducasse ? [07:45] lotuspsychje: enjoyed a quiet xmas, now ready for new year :) [07:45] ducasse: any plans for new years eve? [07:46] lotuspsychje: nah, staying at home, making sure the fireworks doesn't scare luna [07:46] hehe [07:50] lotuspsychje: how about you, any plans? [07:52] ducasse: yeah we go to our friends many years now [07:53] relaxed dinner and sleepover [08:00] lotuspsychje: sounds fun :) [08:27] dax: you guys changed something to #ubuntu? users climbing up now [08:29] lotuspsychje: we set -r and cleared out #ubuntu-unregged. autorejoin-on-kick bumped the #ubuntu user count from 1053 to 1112 when we did that [08:29] cool dax, tnx for the tryout! [08:30] sygin new bot to protect us? [08:30] Sigyn's the network-wide antispam bot. She's been in #ubuntu for a while, but I opped her so that she'll still see spambots if Drone (the channel antispambot) sets +qz $~a during botspam. [08:31] nice [08:32] dax: already feels like more cordy support this morning, tnx to all the ops for us! [08:32] Current plan is to set +r (either programmatically or manually) when we have bots and set -r once things calm down (on a timescale of hours, not days). We'll see how it goes. [08:32] s/when we have bots/when we have spambots/ [08:33] great plan! [08:33] i tested the webchat freenode, its also letting me in without reg dax [08:33] i guess spambots cant bypass that captcha right? [08:34] we don't do anything special for webchat currently. and yeah, spambots generally don't bother using it [08:34] this is great :p [08:34] unfortunately there's no way of saying "block unregistered users but allow in web gateways" without making things complicated enough that it's even more confusing than just +r [09:14] bbl [12:31] Howdy folks [14:02] good afternoon to all [14:02] hey lotuspsychje :) [14:03] hey pauljw [14:04] hey BluesKaj [14:05] Hi lotuspsychje, pauljw [14:06] users in #ubuntu climbing again :p [14:09] hi BluesKaj [14:10] lotuspsychje, climbing? [14:11] BluesKaj: +R is removed by the ops with a new system [14:13] lotuspsychje, what's the new procedure that replaces +R? i use it everytime i login [14:14] well +r is wrong, IMO it prevents newbs who don't know any better from joining and receiving support [14:14] pauljw: Current plan is to set +r (either programmatically or manually) when we have bots and set -r once things calm down (on a timescale of hours, not days). We'll see how it goes. [14:16] is there a difference in +r and +R? +R was supposed to stop spamming PMs. [14:16] i mean registered nicks yea [14:17] the chat ends uip looking like ##linux ...full of know it alls who don't need help and just spewing about their linux chops [14:17] now we should have back a proper usercount soon, and more crowdy support [14:17] i see [14:17] I meant Registration which most new users don't do [14:19] :) [14:52] hi fruit [16:11] hey EriC^^ :) [16:11] hey pauljw :) [16:14] hey Nokaji [16:15] Greetings lotuspsychje [16:26] hi lotuspsych [16:45] what is CoC? [16:45] (tried a search but didn't get any much) [16:46] code of conduct on irc [16:52] !coc [16:52] The Ubuntu Code of Conduct is the document that spells out etiquette in the Ubuntu community | http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct | For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct | Watch http://static.screencasts.ubuntu.com/videos/2010/12/22/004-SigningCoC.ogv [16:55] trying to join #ubuntu-offtopic - but what happens? Nothing. Anyone else having prob with it? [16:57] FruitView: are you registered? [16:58] yes [16:58] FruitView: i can join it normally [16:58] okay, guess i'll try again in a while. wait it out. [17:00] Hows culture here, do you people stay on topic or do you do religion, politics and sexual orientation as well? [17:00] !guidelines | FruitView [17:00] FruitView: The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines [17:00] never mind, guess that is what the offtopic chan is for. [17:01] FruitView: in offtopic there are also guidelines [17:13] hey TJ- [17:19] Hiya lotuspsychje :) [19:39] hey Bashing-om [19:40] lotus ! .. Fancy you still active .. Holiday off-time ? [19:41] yesss [19:41] until 8 january [19:42] lotuspsychje: That gives you time to build 5 more boxes :) [19:42] haha [19:42] Bashing-om: been ordering 1000 flyers today [19:44] lotuspsychje: ^^ that do help to build up your user base :) [19:44] it surely will [19:45] hi Hirppa [20:36] nite nite guys [22:39] pauljw: +R is a usermode that stops unidentified users from PMing you. +r is a channelmode that stops unidentified users from joining a channel [22:39] pauljw: i.e., they do two different things, and if you're happy with umode +R, #ubuntu changing channel modes doesn't affect that :) [22:40] thanks dax, i put that together during the conversation. :) [22:43] dax, i was initially confused when BluesKaj> used +R instead of +r in his statement, once i saw that one was usermode and one was channelmode it made sense. [22:43] :) [22:51] biab... dinnertime.