[07:39] <alkisg> Hi. I believe Flannel abused his ops privileges in #ubuntu, and I'd like to report him, and ask that he apologizes. Until then, (if that happens), I won't go in #ubuntu and I won't help people there anymore. See the chat log  to see if he was right to kick me or not. Thank you.
[07:39] <Flannel> alkisg: Hi.
[07:39] <alkisg> Hello
[07:40] <alkisg> Flannel: I'm https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlkisGeorgopoulos, not that it matters,it's just nice to know the other person when resolving such things
[07:44] <alkisg> In my view, you silenced two helping people, and kicked one of them, in order to help someone on an offtopic subject (supporting PPAs etc)
[07:45] <alkisg> Someone who was not only offtopic, but also violating channel rules with his language
[07:45] <alkisg> I don't want to continue helping in such a channel, if this is the way things work there
[07:46] <Flannel> alkisg: If you'll give me a few minutes to finish up in #u, I'll be happy to chat with you in here.  I just feel like you deserve my full attention, so I don't want to be giving you only 50%.
[07:47] <alkisg> Flannel: no worries, I don't mind waiting. It's your final verdict that matters to me.
[08:08] <alkisg> In other words, if it was a mistake on your part, no big deal, we're only humans, we do mistakes. If, after our chat here, this continues to be your policy, I won't participate in any channel where you are an operator... hopefully that won't include #ubuntu-kernel or #ubuntu-devel etc, as this will also block more of my ubuntu contributions
[08:09] <Flannel> alkisg: Hi.  Sorry for the wait.
[08:09] <alkisg> I'm here :)
[08:09] <alkisg> FYI, this is my first ban after 25 years of helping others
[08:10] <Flannel> alkisg: you're not banned.  I simply removed you to diffuse the situation.
[08:10] <Flannel> alkisg: You were never banned, at that.  For the record.
[08:10] <alkisg> Kicked, not ban, sorry. It's the first time I've been kicked.
[08:11] <Flannel> But, lets talk more about it.  That's a very brief statement that ignores a lot of nuance.
[08:11] <Flannel> alkisg: First off, I want to thank you for trying to help him for a long while initially.  I know it's difficult to work with people that are being antagonistic.
[08:12] <alkisg> I support 1000+ schools that use Ubuntu with various forms, IRC, forums, VNC, telephone etc. I do know that frustrated users can be a pain, I'm used to that part.
[08:12] <Flannel> By the time I showed up, it was already pretty bad (which just happens, unfortunately I can't be everywhere all the time).  Which is not your fault in any way.
[08:13] <alkisg> I also understand trying to diffuse a situation. But, kicking a helpful user, is of grave importance. It shouldn't be done without first carefully examining the situation
[08:14] <Flannel> So, it became a pretty grumpy situation, one that wasn't ever going to go back to technical support unless people stopped worrying about whether he was being honest or not.
[08:14] <alkisg> On the other hand, kicking a troll or someone that swears etc, isn't of grave importance
[08:14] <alkisg> So I believe at that point you made a bad call
[08:14] <Flannel> I don't believe he was a troll.  He had a real technical issue, which actually has a bug about it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/+bug/1451728
[08:15] <alkisg> A real technical issue, I agree. If it's ubuntu-related or not (e.g. PPA), I didn't find out because I was kicked. But, his ranting and swearing made him a troll anyway.
[08:15] <Flannel> I would've prefered he stop with the language, but at that point that ship had sailed and he was being actively antagonized by the channel as a whole.
[08:16] <Flannel> alkisg: That bug report is for the PPA, but the bug is in the real packages as well.  See: https://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/amd64/kde-config-telepathy-accounts/filelist and https://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/all/account-plugin-google/filelist
[08:16] <Flannel> /usr/share/accounts/services/google-im.service
[08:16] <Flannel> alkisg: No, ranting and swearing makes him upset, not a troll.
[08:17] <alkisg> The rant was about apt, he wasn't able to understand that apt was not to blame, but the packages themselves
[08:17] <Flannel> And people being quick to label him a troll doesn't make him a troll, it just makes him more upset.
[08:17] <alkisg> In any case, isn't ranting and swearing against the channel rules?
[08:17] <Flannel> alkisg: His apt problem actually has merit too.  When trying to install a conflicting package, apt should stop installing, not keep installing up until packages are broken.
[08:18] <Flannel> (and if it does the latter, it should provide an easy way back to happy package land)
[08:18] <alkisg> apt doesn't have file information; that's in dpkg
[08:18] <Flannel> His apt was in a state, through no fault of his own, of not being able to do anything.
[08:18] <alkisg> Packages are normally not accepted to debian if they ship overlapping files, without a Conflicts: directive
[08:18] <Flannel> alkisg: To a user that is new to apt, there's no difference.  "It didn't work, and now it refuses to work anymore"
[08:19] <alkisg> Right. To me, there's a difference, and I was trying to explaing it to him, while he was ranting.
[08:19] <alkisg> But let's go on
[08:19] <Flannel> Thank you.
[08:19] <alkisg> That was the situation
[08:19] <alkisg> What gave you the "right to kick me" at that point?
[08:20] <alkisg> I mean of course not the technical right, the moral right
[08:20] <Flannel> So, like I was saying, I'd prefer it if he didn't swear, but at that point, there were a number of people in the channel who were doing nothing but calling him a troll and a troublemaker, which is NOT catalyzing.
[08:21] <Flannel> So, I stepped in, and asked people to stop and just leave it be.  If he's being antagonistic, but not towards you, it won't hurt you.  You have every right to stop helping and let someone do it.  But grabbing the pitchforks and torches.... that's going too far.
[08:22] <alkisg> So you think that I actually offended him more than he offended me?
[08:23] <alkisg> Because, he started with "this person has been helping me for 30 minutes and he wasted my time and we're back at the same point where I was before"...
[08:23] <alkisg> ...while, I was trying to solve his apt state, which should be obviously the correct thing to do at that point
[08:23] <Flannel> So, the reason you were kicked was because after I asked you and someone else to stop and take your "but he's just a troll" elsewhere, instead of helping de-escilate, you told me to "stop supporting trolls"
[08:23] <alkisg> (09:35:41 πμ) jerichowasahoax: Flannel: I'm sorry, but I've yet to be convinced that his intentions are entirely altruistic.
[08:23] <alkisg> (09:35:51 πμ) alkisg: +1
[08:23] <alkisg> (09:35:59 πμ) Flannel: jerichowasahoax, alkisg: Then go somewhere else and complain.  Thanks.
[08:24] <Flannel> And, while it didn't factor in at the time, I had also a few minutes earier asked you specifically to stop berating him.
[08:24] <alkisg> I believe that sentense of yours was misplaced
[08:24] <alkisg> And, if you really wanted to tell 2 helpful users to stop in this particular case, you should prefix it with:
[08:24] <alkisg> "guys, I'm an operator in this channel. Please allow me to diffuse this situation, don't talk any more about this subject"
[08:25] <alkisg> I didn't realize you were a channel operator, which would mean you're somewhat responsible to diffuse the situation
[08:25] <alkisg> To me, you were a random user, with the same responsibility as me to diffuse and even soccially educate the users
[08:26] <alkisg> And having a "random user" tell me to "go elsewhere to complain", isn't something that I can tolerate when I go somewhere to freely help others
[08:26] <Flannel> Sigh.  Ok, if you want to start getting technical...
[08:27] <alkisg> I'm telling you my feelings
[08:27] <Flannel> alkisg: Complaining about users of #ubuntu is offtopic in #ubuntu.  So you shouldn't have been doing it there in the first place.
[08:27] <alkisg> I wasn't
[08:27] <alkisg> Give me the sentence where I did.
[08:27] <Flannel> Sure you were.  Where does "I think this guy is a troll" fit under "ubuntu technical support"?
[08:28] <alkisg> Flannel: can you copy /paste that because I don't see it in my log?
[08:28] <Flannel> I really don't want to get into the weeds of he-said she-said.
[08:28] <alkisg> OK
[08:29] <alkisg> It's a big difference if you _think_ I said something because someone else said it, and you kicked the wrong person. But as you wish.
[08:29] <Flannel> Can we please just get back to the fact that I kicked you because I needed to de-escilate?  It wasn't anything about you personally.  You just happened to be the person who spoke up "next" after I asked /again/ for people to stop?
[08:29] <alkisg> Right
[08:29] <alkisg> That's exactly where my objection is
[08:29] <Flannel> alkisg: I didn't kick the wrong person.  I kicked someone involved in the squabble.
[08:29] <alkisg> If you want to keep doing that, I don't want to participate in channels where you are operator
[08:30] <alkisg> If this is acceptable in #ubuntu-ops policy, I don't want to participate in such channels
[08:30] <alkisg> Kicking is very offending for me
[08:30] <Flannel> alkisg: And that makes me sad, because I don't think you should take this personally at all.
[08:30] <alkisg> It means that I was not able to solve an issue using discussion
[08:31] <alkisg> That's why I'm here asking for a ...policy change or something
[08:31] <Flannel> That said, if you'd like to discuss this with someone who isn't me (e.g. want a second opinion), I am more than happy to have a third party come in and talk this through.
[08:31] <Flannel> There's always a possibility that I was out of line.  I don't see it.  But that's what third parties are for.
[08:32] <alkisg> I think discussing the issue here, is the most I can offer for the privilege of HELPING others
[08:32] <alkisg> I'm not looking to do something that benefits myself
[08:33] <alkisg> So I'll leave and stop participating in channels where the "kick the last person that has spoken to diffuse a situation" policy is in effect
[08:33] <alkisg> Thank you for this discussion though, I'm feeling better after it
[08:33] <Flannel> alkisg: I never accused you of wanting to benefit yourself.
[08:34] <Flannel> alkisg: I also, for the record, never said that was the policy.  I just said that's what I did.
[08:34] <alkisg> No, I'm trying to explain that "if you kick a ranting user, he'll come back because he'll want help again. If you kick someone that tries to help, he may never come back"
[08:35] <Flannel> alkisg: I made a judgement call in a tense situation.  Do I regret it? yes.  I always regret it, because it means I was unsuccessful in catalyzing an effective change.
[08:36] <alkisg> Thank you for that. I was about to leave saying I won't join #ubuntu again. Now I'll think about it.
[08:36] <alkisg> Have a nice day Flannel, it was good talking to you here.
[08:36] <Flannel> alkisg: Again, I implore you to not take it personally.  I meant no ill-will towards you.
[08:37] <alkisg> I never though that part
[08:44] <Flannel> I must have misunderstood earlier.  I thought you felt it was a personal affront.
[08:44] <Flannel> but I'm glad you didn't.
[08:45] <alkisg> No, I'm a "rules" guy... I wouldn't want to participate in channels, where it would be acceptable for me to get kicked, while I'm actively trying to solve things via discussion...
[08:46] <alkisg> This is about feelings and rules, not about specific persons