lotuspsychjegood morning to all05:51
Bashing-omAnd that all for me folks - g nite \o06:29
lotuspsychjenite nite06:29
ducassegood morning, all07:22
lordievaderGood morning07:39
lordievaderHey ducasse lotuspsychje07:40
lordievaderHow are you today?07:40
lotuspsychjehey lordievader07:40
lotuspsychjestorm here 100km/h07:40
ducassemorning, lordievader - all well, how are you?07:41
lordievaderDoing good here 😁07:46
BluesKajHowdy folks11:18
EriC^^hey BluesKaj11:28
BluesKajHi EriC^^11:29
jimb_Morning yo!11:41
BluesKaj'Morning jimb_11:44
jimb_Hiya BluesKaj  having a great morning so far?11:45
BluesKajjimb_, yup, just about have my 2nd coffee, quiet and relaxing here :-)11:47
BluesKajhow about you ?11:47
jimb_Lucky you! I make coffee, but I often forget to get a cup... thanks for the reminder... heading to the kitchen now! :)11:47
BluesKajgotta have that coffee ;-)11:50
jimb_I used to easily drink 2 pots/day... now I am lucky to drink 1 cup/day. Generally get all caught up in things and forget until it's cold. Today is not one of those days though.11:54
BluesKajI restrict my coffee intake to 2 mugs per day ...used to be a heavy cofee drinker when i was still working , but retirement and age made me change my habits11:58
jimb_It's been the opposite for me, somewhat... less work = more coffee... more work = coffee? Who has time for coffee?! lol.12:03
jimb_How's retirement treating you? I sure hope it's been nice!12:03
BluesKajit's been great, no complaints12:06
jimb_Very glad to hear it.12:06
BluesKaj jimb_ you in Michigan,? I'm in Ontario12:12
jimb_BluesKaj, Well, hello my Canadian neighbor!12:13
jimb_Michiganders are brothers to our friends in the North (or east)12:13
BluesKajyup, I'm NE, about 160mi east of the "the Soo"12:15
BluesKajjimb_, aka Sault Ste Marie12:17
jimb_Sweet. I have spent a fair amount of time in your land, almost always been beautiful and peaceful. Oddest thing though, I gave some street kid $0.25 once in the subway and the cops talked to me about it, warned that it was not good and they needed to make sure I wasn't promised drugs in return... otherwise always fun!12:18
BluesKajreallt? that's strange alright12:19
jimb_Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah, really.12:19
jimb_I say "subway" but the train was above-ground. I took it pretty far east, I don't remember the name of the city I was going to, but it was to meet up with some people about Blackberry, I guess they had an office there.12:23
BluesKajmy 2 daughters live I Toronto, one uses public transit every day and there's akways street musicians and panhandlers in the subway , but the cops usually don't bother them or those who throw them a a buck or 212:23
jimb_This was literally a street kid who came up and asked for change... so I gave him what I had. I too have never seen performers bothered.12:24
jimb_That is very much UNLIKE Ann Arbor, a nearby town here... too many street kids... they get bothered all the time. It's a college town and has drop-outs and what-not that didn't leave.12:25
BluesKajright, I've been thru Ann Arbor, my son and sister live across the river in Windsor12:27
jimb_To keep this on-topic... I had my laptop (almost exclusively running Ubuntu) with me, since it was a work thing.12:28
jimb_Windsor is OK. Too many American tourists though, lol.12:28
BluesKajheh, that damn casino ....12:29
jimb_I spent a fair amount of my years between 19-21 in Windsor... given the different drinking age from here12:29
BluesKajyeah, so you were at a blackberry office...what did they think of ubuntu ?12:30
jimb_They were basically like... "What is this? Is that Windows?" lol.12:31
jimb_This was around the time of the Palm Pre and Pixi12:32
BluesKajthat's kind oif surprising since the founder of RIM/Blackberry graduated from Waterloo U which has ubuntu mirrors in their server system12:33
jimb_So... I was probably running something like 8.0412:33
jimb_Yeah, well, Blackberry wasn't the smartest bunch. I think they had some great people up top, not so great lower making important decisions.12:33
jimb_For example... instead of having air compressors in one of the refurb labs, they had big air tanks brought in every so often with inert gas. I can only imagine how expensive that was... purpose, to reduce the noise of an air compressor?!12:34
BluesKajok, think they rested on their laurels too long and didn't innovate and adjust, thereby they were left behind in the dust12:35
jimb_I dunno if you ever had to, but I had to install and manage a Blackberry Enterprise Server... it was ridiculous that I needed that simply to perform some mundane tasks related to refurbishing units that had been on an enterprise system.12:37
jimb_Yeah, they had a really innovative and unique product early on... then they became obsolete :(12:38
BluesKajhowever they are making a bit of a comeback with their self driving vehicle software QNX12:39
jimb_I remember QNX, before Blackberry was involved with it, I should still have an ISO or two laying around in the archives. Decent OS.12:40
BluesKajno longer a HW company. concentrating on software now12:40
jimb_Very purpose driven. Man, I wish Palm had succeeded with the Pre. I think if they had (since it was a GNU/Linux type system) we would have more available Ubuntu phones today.12:41
BluesKajthink they bought the company that created QNX or something , not sure12:41
jimb_Yeah, pretty sure they bought them as when I was involved they were distinct companies.12:41
BluesKajnot big phone user, I make calls and take a few pics on mine that's about all12:42
jimb_I worked in the industry for nearly a decade, so... I hate phones now, lol12:42
jimb_If I'm honest, I hated phones prior too, I was always more of a PDA person. Then I was given a springboard to turn my PDA into a smartphone... and my world changed. But I still hated the "phone" aspect12:44
BluesKajguess tablets have become the PDAs of this day and age12:46
jimb_Yeah, pretty much. I fear the general populace will forget all of the things Palm did in laying the groundwork for what we take for granted today. Then again, such is the norm for us humans.12:46
BluesKajafraid so12:47
jimb_I felt awestruck the other day when I realized that my children are growing up in the world where they talk to computers for simple tasks... like "Alexa, set a 15 minute timer" or "Alexa, order paper towels"... they have no idea what a wristwatch even is.12:49
BluesKajI'm an old windows guy, used the OSs on the job since the early 90s , but i didn't really discover linux until after retirement when computers sort of became a hobby , think the Knoppix live cd was my first encounter with Linux. Then I began in earnest in 2005 with Kubuntu12:52
jimb_Cool, I remember Knoppix. I was also a Windows user in the 90's... in the late 90's I was formally introduced to Unix/Xenix/etc.12:54
jimb_Actually, I guess it was the early 90s for Unix... then Xenix/etc came later.12:55
* BluesKaj nods12:55
jimb_How are you liking Linux in general compared to Windows?12:55
daftykinsmuch preferred what Psion did :)12:56
BluesKajhaven't used windows seriously since '05 , dual booted for a while but i don't even bother with VMs anymore12:56
jimb_daftykins, Really? I haven't had much interaction with Psion equipment, possibly due to the waters between us.12:58
jimb_BluesKaj, I hear you on that... once I decided to ditch Windows... it was an easy affair. I do miss Notepad++ some... but not even enough to keep using it via Wine... that stopped years ago.12:59
BluesKajI'm also testing Kubuntu 18.04 Bionic  ...been a tester for 7 or 8 yrs now, but that's about as deep as my interest and knowledge allow12:59
BluesKajtried wine a few times , was always clunky to me13:00
jimb_Ah. I was developing for a Linux based product and figured if the product lived in this space, then so should I... of course this is after years of on-and-off use for work anyway.13:01
BluesKajok  ...bbiab13:01
jimb_daftykins, After looking, makes me wonder if my Compaq C140's weren't simply re-branded Psion devices13:03
daftykinshrmm not familiar with those, loved my little 3c... just found it the other day in fact, but the rubberised casing has gone all sticky and horrible.13:04
daftykinsfor me, it was a way of getting a portable computer as a kid when laptops were still insanely expensive, back in late the 90s :)13:05
jimb_Yeah, possibly used acetyl based rubber... goes off after a while13:05
daftykinsi had seen about cleaning it up with acetone or isopropanol, but the result is expected to look very ugly13:05
jimb_The C140 is kind of like the 5mx... but less focus on having a useful keyboard13:05
jimb_Ah, the late 90's laptop... back when companies like Zenith were still in the game13:06
jimb_I had a TRS-80 model 102 way back when.13:08
pauljwhi everyone13:29
BluesKaj'Morning pauljw13:31
pauljwgood morning BluesKaj :)13:31
Bashing-om'Morning - ready to have fun now :)16:32
oerheksare you *really* really ready ?16:34
oerhekshi Bashing-om16:34
Bashing-omoerheks: :) .. Well, I would hazard to think I am ready .16:35
lotuspsychjegood evening to all17:16
Bashing-omlotuspsychje: :) Slow day ?17:18
lotuspsychjehey there Bashing-om dont know, was working :p17:19
Bashing-omlotuspsychje: Work can be good :P17:21
lotuspsychjeBashing-om: 1539 users! we need to get to work lol17:24
Bashing-omlotuspsychje: Moar helpers, please :)17:26
jerzomaar, yo17:27
zomaarYes the works for me attitudes17:28
zomaarI mean, yes sociological problems.17:28
zomaarI regularly debate people who think usability should come last17:29
zomaarWhen all other problems have been fixed17:29
zomaarThen you spend time on the interface17:29
jerright. being paid to work on something also doesn't change it; often times engineering teams (full disclosure i'm a vp of engineering at my current company) are structured around solving technological problems, rather than wholistically... because you can move faster with a leaner focus -- however it doesn't end up producing a better product. individual people working in open source aren't immune to17:29
jerthese phenominon either17:29
jersoftware quality improves the more you understand and accept (not just as someone else's valid problem, but as a problem you own)17:30
jerthat it's in your best interests to solve it17:30
zomaarYes ownership17:30
zomaarExactly yes17:30
jerpeople put more attention to detail in it. so when folks are grabbing bugs off a bug tracker just at random to "level up" their clout in a community17:30
jeryou are not going to get quality work out of that group over time17:31
jeri'm not saying it won't happen, i'm just saying the odds of it are significantly reduced when you see a bug as a means to an end17:31
zomaarMy original statement was that if those people would spend that little extra, it would return to them because they have to spend less time on support17:31
jerright but that's the problem, people are selfish, so to get them to spend that little extra, they have to feel it, experience it, be a problem for them17:31
zomaarI even believe some get a kick out of being needed in support roles17:32
zomaarIe. the more bugs, the more work for you to do17:32
jerwell it's not as malicious as that -- but people want to feel included, generally speaking17:33
jerthat their opinions matter17:33
jerthat's what i was talking about with the "clout" comment above17:33
zomaarOn the topics of what work to do yes.17:33
jeri will footnote that with one thing, it's probably not conscious in most people, because most developers i have known, hate fixing bugs after bugs =]17:34
jerif they don't, they're probably well suited for a life in QA =]17:34
zomaarIf it was conscious they woudn't be doing this in any case...17:34
jerzomaar, hard to quantiy that statement though17:34
zomaarBecause it is impossible not to see how the difficulty in using a system is a cost to users17:34
zomaarAnd at the same time you say : users become developers17:35
jerzomaar, i think that much is self evident if you take the position of taking a step back and looking at it as a whole17:35
zomaarIn open source17:35
jermost users don't become developers though17:35
jerbut developers do all the work, and as a ratio, how many people have a product focus on these disparate teams building this or that?17:35
jeri'd argue, granted not knowing fully, that the amount of specialized product people are limited, and certainly don't interact with the whole wide swath of the OSS community17:36
zomaarSome say that "real developers" have no issue with the user interface shortages17:36
jerdevs love to hate on PMs, but it's a symbiotic relationship =]17:36
zomaarThe "real admin" mindset.17:37
zomaar"A real admin has no trouble reading bad man pages"17:37
zomaar"A real admin never executes a wrong command"17:37
jersure, but that's viewing the problem through the wrong focus17:37
jerand by 'sure' i mean 'if we assume that to be true'17:37
zomaarIt's the blaming the user mindset.17:37
zomaarIt creates a separation between users and developers17:38
zomaarThat causes the "not my problem feeling"17:38
zomaarThen, when those users can't use something, they are told "then fix it yourself"17:38
zomaarBut you just created a schizm17:38
zomaarAnd now you tell them to bridge it17:39
zomaar(Not you)17:39
jerzomaar, a lot of those who blame users for problems tend to be less experienced in my opinion and suffer from the dunning-kruger effect17:39
zomaarYes I guess so17:39
jerof course there are some experienced folks who just have an empathy gap17:39
zomaarI mean obviously real developers often greatly care about their product17:39
zomaarIt's the people around it who care less17:40
jerit's not required to do great work, but you'll do your best work if you can empathize with your user, own their problems, and produce something that makes their problems more palatable if not removes them entirely17:40
zomaarAnd who then try to perk up their status by being arrogant about their skills17:40
jerand it's often hard17:40
zomaarBut for me that just sounds extremely natural17:41
zomaarThe point is that I am spending time dealing with incomplete systems when my time would be much more useful17:41
zomaarif those systems had been completed17:41
zomaarFor example17:41
zomaarWhich I could then spend17:41
zomaaron improving the system17:41
jersure, and the open source way of answering that would be "fix it"17:41
zomaarIt's that cycle17:41
zomaarYes but this destroys any sense of specialisation17:42
zomaarNow the developer is asked to develop 1000 projects at the same time17:42
zomaarInstead of 1 and do it well17:42
zomaarYour time is not well spent if you have to fix other people's projects17:43
zomaarThat almost amounts to building the entire thing up from scratch17:43
zomaarWhen the entire idea of community or society is that you don't need to17:43
jerthe open source software lifecycle is: Some problem bugs someone, they want to fix it; build some fledgling thing that 'works for me' and puts it on github; someone with a similar problem finds it, adds a package to their platform of choice, so they can install it under whatever package system; that gives more people visibility, some find it, and use it, maybe the odd person fixes a bug that many have17:43
jerhit; upstream dev comments on it asking for changes to more fit their style, this is sometimes where things die as those changes never get made, etc.17:43
jeror they get merged and new version potentially cut; or sometimes the original author doesn't have htis problem anymore because maintaining things takes time and they don't have it anymore17:44
jerbasically there's really only one pathway into the process, but a thousand ways that it can exit =]17:44
jerand they all suck for users =]17:44
zomaarAnd everyone is solving everyone else's problems but their own17:45
zomaarAnd that is the basic problem17:45
zomaarWhen ironically17:45
zomaarThe whole idea of software development is solving other people's problems.17:45
zomaarJust not other developers' problems ;-).17:45
zomaarYou gotta do your own work, not someone else's.17:46
zomaarSo that's the dichotomy I think.17:46
zomaarThere is a splintering of energy17:46
zomaarInstead of a focus17:46
zomaarAnd this being fragmented causes the loss of efficiency in the entire system.17:47
jersorry was afk for a sec17:51
jerthe thing is though, when developers solve problems themselves they're both seen as the user and the developer; so often will take the way that makes the most sense in their head... thinking analytically, that means they'll build it for a developer like them17:51
jerwon't even be applicable potentially (their solution) to other developers let alone many years17:51
zomaarI once spoke to the autofs developer and he told me he had no clue how a user would see the system because he'd been at it for so long.17:52
nacci think there is some conflating here between "the open source software cycle" and "an open source software cycle"17:52
naccif you think you know how all OSS gets developed, you're lying17:52
naccplenty of companies use rigorous engineering around open source17:52
jernacc, ok fair point17:53
jeri misspoke =]17:53
naccit's also the difference, IMO between being a programmer and being a software engineer17:53
zomaarHard to see how you can separate that17:53
nacczomaar: do you consider yourself either?17:53
zomaarAnd company-produced software would obviously follow a somewhat different strategem.17:54
zomaarI consider myself both yes.17:54
zomaarVLC for instance didn't originate in the "open source world".17:56
nacctotally my opinion, but a programmer, imo, aka a coder, takes a short-sighted approach and is able to churn out code. Nothing wrong with that. You want a job done, they get it done.17:56
nacca software engineer is, well, an engineer (if they actually have the title), and is able to go from a problem statement, to design to engineering to triage of issues, etc17:56
zomaarThat's almost the same as being a part-time carpenter, but only if you have your own furniture to make.17:56
nacci have no idea what you're talking about17:56
naccbut i have felt this way about your comments in general17:57
naccoh well, i have work to do, enjoy your conversation17:57
zomaarYou paint programmers as amateur software engineers17:57
nacci thinnk they are different professionns17:57
zomaarThe programmer you mention does not even sound like a profession.17:58
naccthat's your opinion.17:58
zomaarNo that's what it sounds like.17:58
jernacc, re: short sighted view, that's entirely the job -- the long term job is project managment17:58
zomaarUnless you mean just "implementer" of existing designs.17:58
nacci don't have time to go into it now, shouldnt' have said anything17:59
zomaarI would agree with that ;-).18:00
zomaarBut it does describe the schizm between thinking and doing and the Linux "doocracy" adage.18:02
zomaarIe. no designing, only implementing.18:03
lotuspsychjelooking good this18:06
naccyeah, lots more buy-in lately from app upstreams18:07
lotuspsychjedidnt know this app was so popular18:07
naccespecially for being so new18:08
naccvery very popular18:08
lotuspsychjei love the snap system18:08
lotuspsychjeits a great addon ontop of apt dont you think18:08
naccgreat might be a step too far :)18:08
naccthere are lots of stuff to stilll cllean up18:08
naccbut from an app perspective, snaps are leaps and bounds beyond debs18:09
lotuspsychjenacc: you mean those starting testing snaps?18:09
nacclotuspsychje: i mean, e.g., dependencies between stuff, etc.18:09
nacclotuspsychje: and replacing a deb with a snap is still not easy18:09
naccin terms of actually doing so in nthe packaging18:10
naccin terms of actually doing so in nthe packaging18:10
lotuspsychjei see18:10
naccbah, sorry18:10
lotuspsychjenacc: would love to see that snap command back to list recent added snaps18:11
naccadded to the store or to the system?18:11
lotuspsychjesudo snap find does a few18:11
lotuspsychjeto the store18:11
naccah yes, that shows you the 'highlighted' ones in the store18:11
lotuspsychjeat the start of snap we had a * to lost more right?18:12
nacclotuspsychje: i'm not sure18:12
naccit's evolving, definitely18:12
lotuspsychjeperhaps i should wishlist this18:12
lotuspsychjeis this the same procedure as bug18:14
nacclotuspsychje: i can't recall if they prefer bugs or forum posts or gh issues anymore18:14
nacci'd check #snappy18:14
lotuspsychjeok tnx18:15
lotuspsychjesudo snap install slack --classic19:14
lotuspsychjelets try :p19:14
lotuspsychjelol that went bad19:20
nacclotuspsychje: what happened?19:21
lotuspsychje50% cpu long load window and login loop to gdm19:21
lotuspsychjelets try again19:21
nacclotuspsychje: after just a `snap install` ? why did you need to loginn?19:21
lotuspsychjebetter now19:22
lotuspsychjenacc: after slack install and run it, it crashed my gui back to login19:22
lotuspsychjelooks ok now19:22
nacclotuspsychje: running wayland?19:22
lotuspsychjeno im on xorg here19:23
lotuspsychjecpu down now :p19:23
nacci'd expect that to be well tested19:23
nacccpu down?19:23
naccoh the load19:23
lotuspsychjei mean load19:23
lotuspsychjebbl guys19:34
lotuspsychjehave a nice119:34
leftyfbI think non-LTS versions should be verymuch discouraged. To tell people to install an OS that will only be supported and upgraded for 9 months just plain doesn't work. the LTS versions should be the full releases and everything else should be considered dev or "cutting edge" temporary releases21:10
leftyfbit's been years since we've been playing this game and it just doesn't make sense from a typical user perspective21:11
hggdhbut we do (or did a few ago) say that non-LTS are "development" releases21:13
daftykinsi agree, unfortunately i think excited users rush to the site and snag the wrong edition21:13
leftyfbhggdh: https://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop21:14
leftyfbnothing on there says development21:14
leftyfbIt does mention the 9 months of "security and maintenance updates" but the average user doesn't know what to make of that21:15
hggdhleftyfb: no, it does not. But it (1) first proposes the current LTS, and (2) clearly states non-LTS are worth 9 months of life21:15
hggdhbut yes, it should be clearer21:15
leftyfbsomeone going to that link will typically just pick whatever is the higher number21:16
hggdhat least as far as dev is concerned, we knew it21:16
hggdhand -- barring a memory failure -- I seem to remember it being stated somewhere21:16
hggdhleftyfb: yes, I agree. UX, and all21:16
hggdhthere is another point -- many users want the Newest & Greatest (even if not actually needing it)21:18
leftyfbJust saying, we'd probably have more people stick with and recommend Ubuntu if they didn't constantly have to keep upgrading their entire OS to what is sometimes a different experience every 9 months. And also be told something they installed on their brand new computer less than a year ago is now defunct.21:18
hggdhfedora is similar (but with two important differences)21:21
hggdhdiff #1: supported for about 13 months21:21
hggdhdiff #2: released every 6 months (or so)21:21
hggdhso you have one year to upgrade to the L&G21:21
hggdhbut, still, upgrade you must21:22
hggdhbut... 18.04 will still be a different UX from 16.04 (and a very different one from 14.04)21:23
hggdhand I am dreading the moment I start upgrading the machines21:23
leftyfbbut there's 2 years inbetween21:23
leftyfband you can stay on the current for 5 years21:24
leftyfbthat's a big difference21:24
hggdhyes, aboslutely21:24
hggdhthe only thing I can think of is emailing ubuntu-dev-discuss and raising the issue21:25
leftyfbKinda done playing that game. I've been down that road before. Didn't lead anywhere good.21:26
hggdhon my side, my move to Bionic has been... painful, initially. Now I have, thanks to the Gnome extensions, something very similar to Unity21:27
hggdh(I do not mind changes, but Unity had some very nice shortcuts)21:27
leftyfbhggdh: I couldn't stand Unity (that was actually one of my feedback points back in the day that got shot down horribly). I'm ok with gnome because of it's customizability though I'm seeing that dwindle a bit now. The desktop icons debacle being the most recent21:29
hggdhthat's OK, it is a question of taste. I, for example, like KDE, but I found I had to type a lot to do the same things I used to do on other DEs21:34
hggdh(and I also did NOT like that Unity did not allow a lot of changes)21:35
hggdhbut Unity had a clean desktop, and -- again, for me -- some very nice shortcuts21:36
hggdhit took me about two weeks of swearing; after that, I found that when I moved to a different flavour, I would return quite fast to Unity21:37
leftyfbI was using Gnome Do and some keyboard shortcuts added to ccsm before Unity came about and still get by with gnome classic(legacy/flashback?). I tried gnome shell not too long ago and wasn't overly excited, but I think I can get used to it21:41

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