[05:51] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[06:29] <Bashing-om> And that all for me folks - g nite \o
[06:29] <lotuspsychje> nite nite
[07:22] <ducasse> good morning, all
[07:39] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:40] <lordievader> Hey ducasse lotuspsychje
[07:40] <lordievader> How are you today?
[07:40] <lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
[07:40] <lotuspsychje> storm here 100km/h
[07:41] <ducasse> morning, lordievader - all well, how are you?
[07:46] <lordievader> Doing good here 😁
[08:09] <jink> Excellent.
[11:18] <BluesKaj> Howdy folks
[11:28] <EriC^^> hey BluesKaj
[11:29] <BluesKaj> Hi EriC^^
[11:41] <jimb_> Morning yo!
[11:44] <BluesKaj> 'Morning jimb_
[11:45] <jimb_> Hiya BluesKaj  having a great morning so far?
[11:47] <BluesKaj> jimb_, yup, just about have my 2nd coffee, quiet and relaxing here :-)
[11:47] <BluesKaj> how about you ?
[11:47] <jimb_> Lucky you! I make coffee, but I often forget to get a cup... thanks for the reminder... heading to the kitchen now! :)
[11:50] <BluesKaj> gotta have that coffee ;-)
[11:54] <jimb_> I used to easily drink 2 pots/day... now I am lucky to drink 1 cup/day. Generally get all caught up in things and forget until it's cold. Today is not one of those days though.
[11:56] <BluesKaj> good
[11:58] <BluesKaj> I restrict my coffee intake to 2 mugs per day ...used to be a heavy cofee drinker when i was still working , but retirement and age made me change my habits
[12:03] <jimb_> It's been the opposite for me, somewhat... less work = more coffee... more work = coffee? Who has time for coffee?! lol.
[12:03] <jimb_> How's retirement treating you? I sure hope it's been nice!
[12:06] <BluesKaj> it's been great, no complaints
[12:06] <jimb_> Very glad to hear it.
[12:12] <BluesKaj>  jimb_ you in Michigan,? I'm in Ontario
[12:13] <jimb_> BluesKaj, Well, hello my Canadian neighbor!
[12:13] <jimb_> Michiganders are brothers to our friends in the North (or east)
[12:15] <BluesKaj> yup, I'm NE, about 160mi east of the "the Soo"
[12:17] <BluesKaj> jimb_, aka Sault Ste Marie
[12:18] <jimb_> Sweet. I have spent a fair amount of time in your land, almost always been beautiful and peaceful. Oddest thing though, I gave some street kid $0.25 once in the subway and the cops talked to me about it, warned that it was not good and they needed to make sure I wasn't promised drugs in return... otherwise always fun!
[12:19] <BluesKaj> reallt? that's strange alright
[12:19] <BluesKaj> really?
[12:19] <jimb_> Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah, really.
[12:23] <jimb_> I say "subway" but the train was above-ground. I took it pretty far east, I don't remember the name of the city I was going to, but it was to meet up with some people about Blackberry, I guess they had an office there.
[12:23] <BluesKaj> my 2 daughters live I Toronto, one uses public transit every day and there's akways street musicians and panhandlers in the subway , but the cops usually don't bother them or those who throw them a a buck or 2
[12:24] <jimb_> This was literally a street kid who came up and asked for change... so I gave him what I had. I too have never seen performers bothered.
[12:25] <jimb_> That is very much UNLIKE Ann Arbor, a nearby town here... too many street kids... they get bothered all the time. It's a college town and has drop-outs and what-not that didn't leave.
[12:27] <BluesKaj> right, I've been thru Ann Arbor, my son and sister live across the river in Windsor
[12:28] <jimb_> To keep this on-topic... I had my laptop (almost exclusively running Ubuntu) with me, since it was a work thing.
[12:28] <jimb_> Windsor is OK. Too many American tourists though, lol.
[12:29] <BluesKaj> heh, that damn casino ....
[12:29] <jimb_> I spent a fair amount of my years between 19-21 in Windsor... given the different drinking age from here
[12:30] <BluesKaj> yeah, so you were at a blackberry office...what did they think of ubuntu ?
[12:31] <jimb_> They were basically like... "What is this? Is that Windows?" lol.
[12:32] <jimb_> This was around the time of the Palm Pre and Pixi
[12:33] <BluesKaj> that's kind oif surprising since the founder of RIM/Blackberry graduated from Waterloo U which has ubuntu mirrors in their server system
[12:33] <jimb_> So... I was probably running something like 8.04
[12:33] <jimb_> Yeah, well, Blackberry wasn't the smartest bunch. I think they had some great people up top, not so great lower making important decisions.
[12:34] <jimb_> For example... instead of having air compressors in one of the refurb labs, they had big air tanks brought in every so often with inert gas. I can only imagine how expensive that was... purpose, to reduce the noise of an air compressor?!
[12:35] <BluesKaj> ok, think they rested on their laurels too long and didn't innovate and adjust, thereby they were left behind in the dust
[12:37] <jimb_> I dunno if you ever had to, but I had to install and manage a Blackberry Enterprise Server... it was ridiculous that I needed that simply to perform some mundane tasks related to refurbishing units that had been on an enterprise system.
[12:38] <jimb_> Yeah, they had a really innovative and unique product early on... then they became obsolete :(
[12:39] <BluesKaj> however they are making a bit of a comeback with their self driving vehicle software QNX
[12:40] <jimb_> I remember QNX, before Blackberry was involved with it, I should still have an ISO or two laying around in the archives. Decent OS.
[12:40] <BluesKaj> no longer a HW company. concentrating on software now
[12:41] <jimb_> Very purpose driven. Man, I wish Palm had succeeded with the Pre. I think if they had (since it was a GNU/Linux type system) we would have more available Ubuntu phones today.
[12:41] <BluesKaj> think they bought the company that created QNX or something , not sure
[12:41] <jimb_> Yeah, pretty sure they bought them as when I was involved they were distinct companies.
[12:42] <BluesKaj> not big phone user, I make calls and take a few pics on mine that's about all
[12:42] <jimb_> I worked in the industry for nearly a decade, so... I hate phones now, lol
[12:43] <BluesKaj> heh
[12:44] <jimb_> If I'm honest, I hated phones prior too, I was always more of a PDA person. Then I was given a springboard to turn my PDA into a smartphone... and my world changed. But I still hated the "phone" aspect
[12:46] <BluesKaj> guess tablets have become the PDAs of this day and age
[12:46] <jimb_> Yeah, pretty much. I fear the general populace will forget all of the things Palm did in laying the groundwork for what we take for granted today. Then again, such is the norm for us humans.
[12:47] <BluesKaj> afraid so
[12:49] <jimb_> I felt awestruck the other day when I realized that my children are growing up in the world where they talk to computers for simple tasks... like "Alexa, set a 15 minute timer" or "Alexa, order paper towels"... they have no idea what a wristwatch even is.
[12:52] <BluesKaj> I'm an old windows guy, used the OSs on the job since the early 90s , but i didn't really discover linux until after retirement when computers sort of became a hobby , think the Knoppix live cd was my first encounter with Linux. Then I began in earnest in 2005 with Kubuntu
[12:54] <jimb_> Cool, I remember Knoppix. I was also a Windows user in the 90's... in the late 90's I was formally introduced to Unix/Xenix/etc.
[12:55] <jimb_> Actually, I guess it was the early 90s for Unix... then Xenix/etc came later.
[12:55]  * BluesKaj nods
[12:55] <jimb_> How are you liking Linux in general compared to Windows?
[12:56] <daftykins> much preferred what Psion did :)
[12:56] <BluesKaj> haven't used windows seriously since '05 , dual booted for a while but i don't even bother with VMs anymore
[12:58] <jimb_> daftykins, Really? I haven't had much interaction with Psion equipment, possibly due to the waters between us.
[12:59] <jimb_> BluesKaj, I hear you on that... once I decided to ditch Windows... it was an easy affair. I do miss Notepad++ some... but not even enough to keep using it via Wine... that stopped years ago.
[12:59] <BluesKaj> I'm also testing Kubuntu 18.04 Bionic  ...been a tester for 7 or 8 yrs now, but that's about as deep as my interest and knowledge allow
[13:00] <BluesKaj> tried wine a few times , was always clunky to me
[13:01] <jimb_> Ah. I was developing for a Linux based product and figured if the product lived in this space, then so should I... of course this is after years of on-and-off use for work anyway.
[13:01] <BluesKaj> ok  ...bbiab
[13:01] <jimb_> k
[13:03] <jimb_> daftykins, After looking, makes me wonder if my Compaq C140's weren't simply re-branded Psion devices
[13:04] <daftykins> hrmm not familiar with those, loved my little 3c... just found it the other day in fact, but the rubberised casing has gone all sticky and horrible.
[13:05] <daftykins> for me, it was a way of getting a portable computer as a kid when laptops were still insanely expensive, back in late the 90s :)
[13:05] <jimb_> Yeah, possibly used acetyl based rubber... goes off after a while
[13:05] <daftykins> i had seen about cleaning it up with acetone or isopropanol, but the result is expected to look very ugly
[13:05] <jimb_> The C140 is kind of like the 5mx... but less focus on having a useful keyboard
[13:06] <jimb_> Ah, the late 90's laptop... back when companies like Zenith were still in the game
[13:08] <jimb_> I had a TRS-80 model 102 way back when.
[13:29] <pauljw> hi everyone
[13:31] <BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
[13:31] <pauljw> good morning BluesKaj :)
[16:32] <Bashing-om> 'Morning - ready to have fun now :)
[16:34] <oerheks> are you *really* really ready ?
[16:34] <oerheks> hi Bashing-om
[16:35] <Bashing-om> oerheks: :) .. Well, I would hazard to think I am ready .
[17:16] <lotuspsychje> good evening to all
[17:18] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: :) Slow day ?
[17:19] <lotuspsychje> hey there Bashing-om dont know, was working :p
[17:21] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Work can be good :P
[17:24] <lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: 1539 users! we need to get to work lol
[17:26] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Moar helpers, please :)
[17:27] <jer> zomaar, yo
[17:27] <zomaar> yo
[17:28] <zomaar> Yes the works for me attitudes
[17:28] <zomaar> I mean, yes sociological problems.
[17:29] <zomaar> I regularly debate people who think usability should come last
[17:29] <zomaar> When all other problems have been fixed
[17:29] <zomaar> Then you spend time on the interface
[17:29] <jer> right. being paid to work on something also doesn't change it; often times engineering teams (full disclosure i'm a vp of engineering at my current company) are structured around solving technological problems, rather than wholistically... because you can move faster with a leaner focus -- however it doesn't end up producing a better product. individual people working in open source aren't immune to
[17:29] <jer> these phenominon either
[17:30] <jer> software quality improves the more you understand and accept (not just as someone else's valid problem, but as a problem you own)
[17:30] <jer> that it's in your best interests to solve it
[17:30] <zomaar> Yes ownership
[17:30] <zomaar> Exactly yes
[17:30] <jer> people put more attention to detail in it. so when folks are grabbing bugs off a bug tracker just at random to "level up" their clout in a community
[17:31] <jer> you are not going to get quality work out of that group over time
[17:31] <jer> i'm not saying it won't happen, i'm just saying the odds of it are significantly reduced when you see a bug as a means to an end
[17:31] <zomaar> My original statement was that if those people would spend that little extra, it would return to them because they have to spend less time on support
[17:31] <jer> right but that's the problem, people are selfish, so to get them to spend that little extra, they have to feel it, experience it, be a problem for them
[17:32] <zomaar> I even believe some get a kick out of being needed in support roles
[17:32] <zomaar> Ie. the more bugs, the more work for you to do
[17:33] <jer> well it's not as malicious as that -- but people want to feel included, generally speaking
[17:33] <jer> that their opinions matter
[17:33] <jer> that's what i was talking about with the "clout" comment above
[17:33] <zomaar> On the topics of what work to do yes.
[17:34] <jer> i will footnote that with one thing, it's probably not conscious in most people, because most developers i have known, hate fixing bugs after bugs =]
[17:34] <jer> if they don't, they're probably well suited for a life in QA =]
[17:34] <zomaar> If it was conscious they woudn't be doing this in any case...
[17:34] <jer> zomaar, hard to quantiy that statement though
[17:34] <zomaar> Because it is impossible not to see how the difficulty in using a system is a cost to users
[17:35] <zomaar> And at the same time you say : users become developers
[17:35] <jer> zomaar, i think that much is self evident if you take the position of taking a step back and looking at it as a whole
[17:35] <zomaar> In open source
[17:35] <jer> most users don't become developers though
[17:35] <zomaar> Yes
[17:35] <jer> but developers do all the work, and as a ratio, how many people have a product focus on these disparate teams building this or that?
[17:36] <jer> i'd argue, granted not knowing fully, that the amount of specialized product people are limited, and certainly don't interact with the whole wide swath of the OSS community
[17:36] <zomaar> Some say that "real developers" have no issue with the user interface shortages
[17:36] <jer> devs love to hate on PMs, but it's a symbiotic relationship =]
[17:36] <zomaar> heh
[17:37] <zomaar> The "real admin" mindset.
[17:37] <zomaar> "A real admin has no trouble reading bad man pages"
[17:37] <zomaar> "A real admin never executes a wrong command"
[17:37] <jer> sure, but that's viewing the problem through the wrong focus
[17:37] <jer> and by 'sure' i mean 'if we assume that to be true'
[17:37] <zomaar> It's the blaming the user mindset.
[17:38] <zomaar> It creates a separation between users and developers
[17:38] <zomaar> That causes the "not my problem feeling"
[17:38] <zomaar> Then, when those users can't use something, they are told "then fix it yourself"
[17:38] <zomaar> But you just created a schizm
[17:39] <zomaar> And now you tell them to bridge it
[17:39] <zomaar> (Not you)
[17:39] <jer> zomaar, a lot of those who blame users for problems tend to be less experienced in my opinion and suffer from the dunning-kruger effect
[17:39] <zomaar> Yes I guess so
[17:39] <jer> of course there are some experienced folks who just have an empathy gap
[17:39] <jer> =]
[17:39] <zomaar> I mean obviously real developers often greatly care about their product
[17:40] <zomaar> It's the people around it who care less
[17:40] <jer> it's not required to do great work, but you'll do your best work if you can empathize with your user, own their problems, and produce something that makes their problems more palatable if not removes them entirely
[17:40] <zomaar> And who then try to perk up their status by being arrogant about their skills
[17:40] <jer> and it's often hard
[17:41] <zomaar> But for me that just sounds extremely natural
[17:41] <zomaar> The point is that I am spending time dealing with incomplete systems when my time would be much more useful
[17:41] <zomaar> if those systems had been completed
[17:41] <zomaar> For example
[17:41] <zomaar> Which I could then spend
[17:41] <zomaar> on improving the system
[17:41] <jer> sure, and the open source way of answering that would be "fix it"
[17:41] <zomaar> It's that cycle
[17:41] <jer> =]
[17:42] <zomaar> Yes but this destroys any sense of specialisation
[17:42] <zomaar> Now the developer is asked to develop 1000 projects at the same time
[17:42] <zomaar> Instead of 1 and do it well
[17:43] <zomaar> Your time is not well spent if you have to fix other people's projects
[17:43] <zomaar> That almost amounts to building the entire thing up from scratch
[17:43] <zomaar> When the entire idea of community or society is that you don't need to
[17:43] <jer> the open source software lifecycle is: Some problem bugs someone, they want to fix it; build some fledgling thing that 'works for me' and puts it on github; someone with a similar problem finds it, adds a package to their platform of choice, so they can install it under whatever package system; that gives more people visibility, some find it, and use it, maybe the odd person fixes a bug that many have
[17:43] <jer> hit; upstream dev comments on it asking for changes to more fit their style, this is sometimes where things die as those changes never get made, etc.
[17:44] <jer> or they get merged and new version potentially cut; or sometimes the original author doesn't have htis problem anymore because maintaining things takes time and they don't have it anymore
[17:44] <jer> basically there's really only one pathway into the process, but a thousand ways that it can exit =]
[17:44] <jer> and they all suck for users =]
[17:45] <zomaar> And everyone is solving everyone else's problems but their own
[17:45] <zomaar> And that is the basic problem
[17:45] <zomaar> When ironically
[17:45] <zomaar> The whole idea of software development is solving other people's problems.
[17:45] <zomaar> Just not other developers' problems ;-).
[17:46] <zomaar> You gotta do your own work, not someone else's.
[17:46] <zomaar> So that's the dichotomy I think.
[17:46] <zomaar> There is a splintering of energy
[17:46] <zomaar> Instead of a focus
[17:47] <zomaar> And this being fragmented causes the loss of efficiency in the entire system.
[17:51] <jer> sorry was afk for a sec
[17:51] <jer> the thing is though, when developers solve problems themselves they're both seen as the user and the developer; so often will take the way that makes the most sense in their head... thinking analytically, that means they'll build it for a developer like them
[17:51] <jer> won't even be applicable potentially (their solution) to other developers let alone many years
[17:51] <jer> s/years$/users/
[17:52] <zomaar> I once spoke to the autofs developer and he told me he had no clue how a user would see the system because he'd been at it for so long.
[17:52] <nacc> i think there is some conflating here between "the open source software cycle" and "an open source software cycle"
[17:52] <nacc> if you think you know how all OSS gets developed, you're lying
[17:52] <nacc> plenty of companies use rigorous engineering around open source
[17:53] <jer> nacc, ok fair point
[17:53] <jer> i misspoke =]
[17:53] <nacc> it's also the difference, IMO between being a programmer and being a software engineer
[17:53] <zomaar> Hard to see how you can separate that
[17:53] <nacc> zomaar: do you consider yourself either?
[17:54] <zomaar> And company-produced software would obviously follow a somewhat different strategem.
[17:54] <zomaar> I consider myself both yes.
[17:56] <zomaar> VLC for instance didn't originate in the "open source world".
[17:56] <nacc> totally my opinion, but a programmer, imo, aka a coder, takes a short-sighted approach and is able to churn out code. Nothing wrong with that. You want a job done, they get it done.
[17:56] <nacc> a software engineer is, well, an engineer (if they actually have the title), and is able to go from a problem statement, to design to engineering to triage of issues, etc
[17:56] <zomaar> That's almost the same as being a part-time carpenter, but only if you have your own furniture to make.
[17:56] <nacc> i have no idea what you're talking about
[17:57] <nacc> but i have felt this way about your comments in general
[17:57] <nacc> oh well, i have work to do, enjoy your conversation
[17:57] <zomaar> You paint programmers as amateur software engineers
[17:57] <nacc> no
[17:57] <nacc> i thinnk they are different professionns
[17:58] <zomaar> The programmer you mention does not even sound like a profession.
[17:58] <nacc> that's your opinion.
[17:58] <zomaar> No that's what it sounds like.
[17:58] <jer> nacc, re: short sighted view, that's entirely the job -- the long term job is project managment
[17:58] <zomaar> Unless you mean just "implementer" of existing designs.
[17:59] <nacc> i don't have time to go into it now, shouldnt' have said anything
[18:00] <zomaar> I would agree with that ;-).
[18:02] <zomaar> But it does describe the schizm between thinking and doing and the Linux "doocracy" adage.
[18:03] <zomaar> Ie. no designing, only implementing.
[18:06] <lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/01/install-slack-app-ubuntu
[18:06] <lotuspsychje> looking good this
[18:07] <nacc> yeah, lots more buy-in lately from app upstreams
[18:07] <lotuspsychje> didnt know this app was so popular
[18:08] <nacc> especially for being so new
[18:08] <nacc> very very popular
[18:08] <lotuspsychje> i love the snap system
[18:08] <lotuspsychje> its a great addon ontop of apt dont you think
[18:08] <nacc> great might be a step too far :)
[18:08] <nacc> there are lots of stuff to stilll cllean up
[18:09] <nacc> but from an app perspective, snaps are leaps and bounds beyond debs
[18:09] <lotuspsychje> nacc: you mean those starting testing snaps?
[18:09] <nacc> lotuspsychje: i mean, e.g., dependencies between stuff, etc.
[18:09] <lotuspsychje> ah
[18:09] <nacc> lotuspsychje: and replacing a deb with a snap is still not easy
[18:10] <nacc> in terms of actually doing so in nthe packaging
[18:10] <nacc> in terms of actually doing so in nthe packaging
[18:10] <lotuspsychje> i see
[18:10] <nacc> bah, sorry
[18:11] <lotuspsychje> nacc: would love to see that snap command back to list recent added snaps
[18:11] <nacc> added to the store or to the system?
[18:11] <lotuspsychje> sudo snap find does a few
[18:11] <lotuspsychje> to the store
[18:11] <nacc> ah yes, that shows you the 'highlighted' ones in the store
[18:12] <lotuspsychje> at the start of snap we had a * to lost more right?
[18:12] <lotuspsychje> list
[18:12] <nacc> lotuspsychje: i'm not sure
[18:12] <nacc> it's evolving, definitely
[18:12] <lotuspsychje> perhaps i should wishlist this
[18:14] <lotuspsychje> is this the same procedure as bug
[18:14] <nacc> lotuspsychje: i can't recall if they prefer bugs or forum posts or gh issues anymore
[18:14] <nacc> i'd check #snappy
[18:15] <lotuspsychje> ok tnx
[19:14] <lotuspsychje> sudo snap install slack --classic
[19:14] <lotuspsychje> lets try :p
[19:20] <lotuspsychje> lol that went bad
[19:21] <nacc> lotuspsychje: what happened?
[19:21] <lotuspsychje> 50% cpu long load window and login loop to gdm
[19:21] <lotuspsychje> lets try again
[19:21] <nacc> lotuspsychje: after just a `snap install` ? why did you need to loginn?
[19:22] <lotuspsychje> better now
[19:22] <lotuspsychje> nacc: after slack install and run it, it crashed my gui back to login
[19:22] <nacc> sad
[19:22] <lotuspsychje> looks ok now
[19:22] <nacc> lotuspsychje: running wayland?
[19:23] <lotuspsychje> no im on xorg here
[19:23] <nacc> ok
[19:23] <lotuspsychje> cpu down now :p
[19:23] <nacc> i'd expect that to be well tested
[19:23] <nacc> cpu down?
[19:23] <nacc> oh the load
[19:23] <lotuspsychje> i mean load
[19:34] <lotuspsychje> bbl guys
[19:34] <lotuspsychje> have a nice1
[21:10] <leftyfb> I think non-LTS versions should be verymuch discouraged. To tell people to install an OS that will only be supported and upgraded for 9 months just plain doesn't work. the LTS versions should be the full releases and everything else should be considered dev or "cutting edge" temporary releases
[21:11] <leftyfb> it's been years since we've been playing this game and it just doesn't make sense from a typical user perspective
[21:13] <hggdh> but we do (or did a few ago) say that non-LTS are "development" releases
[21:13] <daftykins> i agree, unfortunately i think excited users rush to the site and snag the wrong edition
[21:14] <leftyfb> hggdh: https://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop
[21:14] <leftyfb> nothing on there says development
[21:15] <leftyfb> It does mention the 9 months of "security and maintenance updates" but the average user doesn't know what to make of that
[21:15] <hggdh> leftyfb: no, it does not. But it (1) first proposes the current LTS, and (2) clearly states non-LTS are worth 9 months of life
[21:15] <leftyfb> "clearly"
[21:15] <hggdh> but yes, it should be clearer
[21:16] <leftyfb> someone going to that link will typically just pick whatever is the higher number
[21:16] <hggdh> at least as far as dev is concerned, we knew it
[21:16] <hggdh> and -- barring a memory failure -- I seem to remember it being stated somewhere
[21:16] <hggdh> leftyfb: yes, I agree. UX, and all
[21:18] <hggdh> there is another point -- many users want the Newest & Greatest (even if not actually needing it)
[21:18] <leftyfb> Just saying, we'd probably have more people stick with and recommend Ubuntu if they didn't constantly have to keep upgrading their entire OS to what is sometimes a different experience every 9 months. And also be told something they installed on their brand new computer less than a year ago is now defunct.
[21:21] <hggdh> fedora is similar (but with two important differences)
[21:21] <hggdh> diff #1: supported for about 13 months
[21:21] <hggdh> diff #2: released every 6 months (or so)
[21:21] <hggdh> so you have one year to upgrade to the L&G
[21:22] <hggdh> but, still, upgrade you must
[21:23] <hggdh> but... 18.04 will still be a different UX from 16.04 (and a very different one from 14.04)
[21:23] <leftyfb> yup
[21:23] <hggdh> and I am dreading the moment I start upgrading the machines
[21:23] <leftyfb> but there's 2 years inbetween
[21:23] <hggdh> yes
[21:24] <leftyfb> and you can stay on the current for 5 years
[21:24] <leftyfb> that's a big difference
[21:24] <hggdh> yes, aboslutely
[21:25] <hggdh> the only thing I can think of is emailing ubuntu-dev-discuss and raising the issue
[21:26] <leftyfb> Kinda done playing that game. I've been down that road before. Didn't lead anywhere good.
[21:27] <hggdh> on my side, my move to Bionic has been... painful, initially. Now I have, thanks to the Gnome extensions, something very similar to Unity
[21:27] <hggdh> (I do not mind changes, but Unity had some very nice shortcuts)
[21:29] <leftyfb> hggdh: I couldn't stand Unity (that was actually one of my feedback points back in the day that got shot down horribly). I'm ok with gnome because of it's customizability though I'm seeing that dwindle a bit now. The desktop icons debacle being the most recent
[21:34] <hggdh> that's OK, it is a question of taste. I, for example, like KDE, but I found I had to type a lot to do the same things I used to do on other DEs
[21:35] <hggdh> (and I also did NOT like that Unity did not allow a lot of changes)
[21:36] <hggdh> but Unity had a clean desktop, and -- again, for me -- some very nice shortcuts
[21:37] <hggdh> it took me about two weeks of swearing; after that, I found that when I moved to a different flavour, I would return quite fast to Unity
[21:41] <leftyfb> I was using Gnome Do and some keyboard shortcuts added to ccsm before Unity came about and still get by with gnome classic(legacy/flashback?). I tried gnome shell not too long ago and wasn't overly excited, but I think I can get used to it