naccseriously, eol upgradse are not this difficult00:58
Bashing-om!cookie | nacc01:03
ubot5nacc: Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie!01:03
naccBashing-om: lol01:03
nacci've been in a bad mood all day with these users! :)01:03
naccoh well, also fixing this nasty packaging bug hasn't helped :)01:03
Bashing-omnacc: My patience would have expired long past with this one :)01:03
naccseriously, it's like they both forgot how to read! :)01:04
Bashing-omnacc: Addeled brained now and can no longer read for comprehension - reckon ?01:05
naccBashing-om: anything is possible :)01:06
Bashing-omnacc: Settled down and ya got a "thank you " :)01:10
lotuspsychjegood morning to all05:27
lotuspsychjehey Sveta05:27
lotuspsychjeSveta: all good today?05:28
Svetai burnt my feet by walking on a melting rock yesterday, but it doesn't hurt much, just sensitive to heat, so no walking for me this weekend05:29
Svetaapart from that everything is fine05:29
lotuspsychjeSveta: walk too long?05:29
Svetai walked for one hour, but it was a very hot rock05:30
lotuspsychjeah i see05:30
Bashing-omTime ! .. g nite guys \o05:53
lotuspsychjehey oerheks05:54
Bashing-omlotuspsychje: oerheks .. all --- take care till we meet again :)05:54
lotuspsychjebbl shower06:28
oerhekssmell ya06:30
marcoscosmosHi folks 0/06:52
Svetai'm a bit frustrated by how many DE-specific questions get asked in ubuntu channels, i can't possibly know the buttons in them all and often they're not fully documented06:53
marcoscosmosIt's kind of like shooting into the aether to ask them06:55
marcoscosmosBut like, how do people even know if the flavour of ubuntu they have has a custom build of the DE?06:56
marcoscosmosSo, it kind of makes sense to ask IMO. Expecting an answer is another matter06:57
Svetahey many people download ubuntu and do not even know which flavour they are using06:58
lordievaderGood morning06:59
marcoscosmosThat's very true. When I first started using linux I managed to install both Ubuntu and Kubuntu on the same drive without formatting in between07:01
marcoscosmos(my laptop was not a happy camper after that)07:01
lordievaderUbuntu and Kubuntu have the same core. If the problem is unrelated to the DE it shouldn't really matter which flavour they are running. If they don't know which version... that is  something else.07:02
marcoscosmosIn my case the problem was that it corrupted files and led to competiting services etc. Not because they are incompatible but because files from one install were left behind and the second didn't have proper control over them07:04
marcoscosmos(e.g. a bunch of files in /etc/usr/share that weren't registered into apt)07:05
marcoscosmosI was too much of a nub to understand at the time07:06
Svetathat's ok07:06
marcoscosmosIt was also like07:07
Svetanot knowing the names of software that you are using is a bit more worrying to me07:07
Svetamakes it a pain to troubleshoot07:07
marcoscosmos9 years ago, give or take07:07
marcoscosmosYeah true.07:07
lordievaderSveta: Sure, but if you are completely new  to the game it ain't surprising. Suddenly you are bombarded with terms you never heared of.07:08
Svetaafter installing a linux distro the users need to be gradually exposed to some key concepts07:11
Svetawe could suggest them to read one small knowledge base article a day if they like07:11
Svetalittle load, lots of benefits07:11
marcoscosmosokay I've updated xorg.. now lets see if my damn xorg settings stick this time07:12
lordievaderSveta: Good idea. Unfortunately people are lazy 😞07:14
Svetathey're less lazy than you think07:14
immuhi all07:15
lordievaderHey immu07:16
immuhye lordievader whats up07:16
lordievaderDoing allright here, how are you?07:16
immui am going doing maintenace in Windows07:26
lordievaderimmu: Good luck 😉07:26
immustill need to keep Windows for various reasons07:30
lordievaderSame here.07:30
immuOn Windows illegal kernel calls where causing blue screens07:35
immuby antovirus vendors07:35
lordievaderWell, wouldn't be the first time Mircosoft re-added stuff to the system to make antivirus software work.... (suposing these are deprecated calls)07:37
marcoscosmosOkay back, I kind of got it working?07:38
jinkGood for you.  Whatever it was you got working.  Kind of.07:38
ducassegood morning, everyone07:39
lordievader> // ACHTUNG!!! this is a special hack for IBM antivirus software07:39
lordievaderimmu above quote comes from http://atdt.freeshell.org/k5/story_2004_2_15_71552_7795.html07:39
marcoscosmosLol. Basically my monitors are default-detected in the wrong positions and my xorg.conf kept getting reset at login for some reason.07:39
lordievaderHey ducasse07:39
lordievaderHow are you?07:39
marcoscosmosevening, ducasse07:40
ducassehi lordievader - all good, thanks. and you?07:40
marcoscosmosStill dunno what's messing with xorg, but running xrandr after login now works in 17.10 (it was broken for some reason in 16.04)07:40
lordievaderDoing good here 😁07:40
immuthats 2004 stuff @lordievader07:44
lordievaderI know07:44
marcoscosmos_oops back xD07:54
immusee lordievader07:58
jinkimmu: 404 ?07:59
jinkNope, it's me.  Last slash is important (God knows why).07:59
immunope works for me07:59
immucheck now08:00
immuBecause some anti-virus vendors are using very questionable techniques they end up cause systems to ‘blue screen of death’ — aka get into reboot loops.08:00
=== marcoscosmos_ is now known as marcoscosmos
jinkimmu: That last slash makes a difference, apparently.08:14
=== kostkon_ is now known as kostkon
EriC^^morning all09:47
marcoscosmosgnome is fucking covoluted wtf10:55
marcoscosmosI bricked ubuntu by adding .desktop and .session files in /usr/share/xsessions and /usr/share/gnome-sessions apparently10:57
marcoscosmosrealistically it was probably some kind of driver failure I suppose10:57
zomaarI am trying to get away from Xenial's LVM and failing every time because I make some mistake that corrupts my filesystem.10:58
zomaarBut I'm not supported if I "import" a version from Yakkety or beyond, and the end result is every time that I can throw away my filesystem.10:58
zomaarThat is to say, making "dd" copies of a disk is extremely dangerous.10:59
marcoscosmosyeah I'm doing some unsupported things too but, I can't concieve how they'd be related10:59
zomaarBecause Xenial's LVM has no protection against having multiple disks with the same UUID10:59
marcoscosmosdangerous how?10:59
marcoscosmosoh fuck10:59
zomaarYou have to carefully shield the original disk using "global_filter" if you want to examine any of the disks while the other is still connected11:00
marcoscosmosI see11:01
zomaarIf you make one mistake, it can start writing to the wrong disk11:01
zomaarTo make matters worse I had a cache ;-) that I had forgotten to disconnect11:01
zomaarThe problem was mostly that LVM depends on /etc/lvm/lvm.conf so in a chroot environment, this file is different11:02
zomaarSo if you correctly shield in your live environment11:02
zomaarThis correct shielding is gone once you enter a chroot11:02
zomaarThen, if you somehow forget to deactivate the volumes before the shielding and reactivate them after the shielding11:03
marcoscosmosis it not possible to force the uuid to update/become unique or is it a problem that triggers mid dd?11:03
zomaarI mean if you don't do vgchange -an in between, and then vgchange -ay in the new situation....11:03
zomaarWell you can11:04
zomaarBut if you do that the names and UUIDs of the backup change11:04
zomaarIf you then want to copy on to a new disk11:04
zomaarYou have to do it again11:04
zomaarI wanted to avoid that11:04
zomaarHaving to do it twice11:04
zomaarBecause I also had another disk connected that I had not copied (the cache)11:05
zomaarSo if I change the UUIDs in the backup, I first have to disconnect it entirely from the cache11:05
marcoscosmosI see11:05
zomaarBecause otherwise the names of the cache also change.11:05
zomaarSo I have to remove a physical volume from the backup11:05
marcoscosmosWait why's there a cache anyway?11:05
zomaarWell I should have disconnected it I just forgot11:06
marcoscosmoswait by cache do you mean swap?11:06
marcoscosmosor is this some kind of raid scenario?11:06
zomaarI just have an LVM cache configured with an SSD for the HDDs.11:06
zomaarYeah so I made matters worse myself I guess.11:07
zomaarHowever disconnecting the cache from the backup means doing some LVM manipulation11:07
zomaarthat will fail if you don't properly shield first ;-).11:07
zomaarSo it's a chicken and egg problem at that point.11:07
marcoscosmosoh cache like hybrid-ssd-hdds11:08
zomaarSo I had to disconnect prior to making the backup which I didn't do.11:08
zomaarIf I disconnect prior to making the backup11:08
zomaarAnd remove the extra physical volume11:08
zomaarThen adding it back later is going to be difficult.11:08
zomaarSo it's just one big mess anyway.11:08
zomaarCause if I really remove the PV I also have to remove the volumes.11:09
zomaarWhich means I have to make the entire cache structure again.11:09
zomaarSo the only way to do it is to also dd the cache disk11:09
zomaarWhich requires an extra disk for that too11:09
zomaarThen I can change them both at the same time and there are no issues.11:10
marcoscosmosshouldn't the volume-making be like. a script that runs at boot anyway?11:10
marcoscosmosboot times wouldn't be so great but11:10
zomaarWell no because they are persistent volumes.11:10
marcoscosmosin my experience having a hdd ni the fstab fucks boot anyway11:10
zomaarIe. a cache has to persist.11:10
marcoscosmoswhy would a cache persist?11:11
zomaarBecause it has to prime which data is often used so you can have fast boot times etc.11:12
zomaarE.g. the ureadahead thing11:13
zomaarTook about 5.5 seconds on my raid 0 system (using regular 5400 disks at this point)11:13
zomaarAnd with the cache connected it went down to 0.7 seconds.11:13
zomaarSo that's a direct 5 second boot speedup.11:14
zomaarIt's just one big giant mess.11:15
zomaarThe way to do it then is to first make the dd, then properly shield the source disks and all the PVs11:15
zomaarThen in the shielded thing disconnect everything you don't want from the backup11:15
zomaarBut I didn't want that because I wanted to copy the backup on ;-).11:16
marcoscosmosoh nice11:16
marcoscosmosI'm guessing you're doing this all as like11:16
marcoscosmosa script so11:16
marcoscosmosyou don't have to deal with typoes every time11:16
zomaarWell no it is too complicated to write a script ahead of time I guess...11:17
zomaarI mean the first time...11:17
zomaarI don't worry about typos but...11:17
marcoscosmosno yeah I meant like11:17
marcoscosmosfor future use11:17
zomaarI still don't know how to do it at this point.11:17
zomaarIt's not just the cache, this would happen every time you had more than 1 PV.11:18
marcoscosmosWell don't worry too much11:18
marcoscosmosdon't feel bad11:18
zomaarYeah I just had an unbootable system because of a billion dangling inodes11:18
marcoscosmoscommercial backup software is often utterly useless so11:18
zomaarI was just scanning what all the lost+found files had come from11:19
zomaarAnd I still need to find out how to do this.11:19
zomaarI guess the best way is disconnect any cache to be sure.11:19
marcoscosmosI figure the solution most people end up doing is using sync or some such to like, perpetually update key files rather than whole drives11:19
zomaarThen shield the source disks11:20
zomaarExchange for target disks.11:20
zomaarCopy your own disk back to the target disk.11:20
zomaarNever touch the intermediate.11:20
zomaarOh boy.11:20
zomaarNever mind, I will just do it slightly more correctly next time I guess.11:21
zomaarThis is sorta the 3rd time this has happened to me at least.11:21
marcoscosmosI see11:21
marcoscosmosseems like an ineffectual way to do backups if you lose your original during xD11:22
marcoscosmosUgh I'm stuck on windows for the night.11:22
zomaarThe LVM of Xenial is considered unsupported by the LVM team because it is too old.11:22
zomaarThey always tell me: UPGRADE11:22
marcoscosmosWindows and it's stacking window manager and mouse use mandates11:22
marcoscosmosI hate mice11:22
marcoscosmosoh wow okay11:22
zomaarBut if I try to upgrade through Ubuntu, Ubuntu people tell me: we can't support that.11:23
marcoscosmosof course not11:23
zomaarSo I'm stuck11:23
marcoscosmosis this a commercial grade deal?11:23
marcoscosmosor like11:23
marcoscosmosfor private use?11:23
zomaarWith an "I will kill your system" version of LVM11:23
zomaarPrivate use that this point11:23
marcoscosmosbecause depending on the scenario you may not need support for your entire system11:24
zomaarIf you happened to do this for a company and you used Xenial LVM you'd be in trouble11:24
marcoscosmosI use unsupported content and still get support for the rest11:24
marcoscosmose.g. an external IDE11:25
zomaarWell generally I don't require to the detail support11:25
zomaarJust a few pointers.11:25
zomaarLike they wouldn't tell me how to debug initramfs11:25
zomaarBecause I was using part of Yakkety11:25
marcoscosmosI'm usually coming here looking for info that's a PITA to google (after trying for a long time)11:25
zomaarWhen the problem was nothing to do with Yakkety11:26
marcoscosmoshow the fuck gnome session even launches these days11:26
zomaarBut anyway I have to continue wasting my life away11:26
marcoscosmosI spent like 4 hours trying to figure out how to launch the settings daemons and shit11:26
marcoscosmosonly to inexplicably brick it11:27
zomaarI couldn't figure out how to start the KDE Power Savings settings from the command line11:27
zomaarThen I forgot I hadn't disabled it and my system went into standby while doing a download11:27
zomaarWhich kinda ruined the entire next day for me11:28
zomaarI really now have to return to a clean Xenial and start everything all over again.11:29
zomaarWhich I can't do because I'm also on a slow link11:29
zomaarSo yes indeed11:30
zomaarEvery time I make a backup it destroys my origin AND the backup11:30
zomaarLVM 171 has some protections against more errors11:31
zomaarBut the latest version of LVM in Ubuntu is about 16811:31
zomaarOr maybe now11:31
marcoscosmosWhy not just use the latest lvm with xenial?11:32
zomaarYou mean compile from source?11:32
zomaarI know it's not difficult to compile it11:32
marcoscosmosNo no11:32
zomaarBionic has version 168 which is too old11:33
zomaarBut at least new enough to protect again the dual UUID issues11:33
marcoscosmoswell you should also be able to pin from debian itself11:33
marcoscosmosnot just ubuntu11:33
marcoscosmosincluding debian-testing11:33
TJ-zomaar: we'll be syncing lvm2 from debian shortly11:33
zomaarBut that means using a newer version from Ubuntu11:33
marcoscosmosnot with pinning11:34
zomaarThen when there is some issue they'll say I am unsupported11:34
marcoscosmospinning is unsupported but it can't be worse than your current situation11:34
TJ-Bug #174198611:35
ubot5bug 1741986 in lvm2 (Ubuntu) "Please merge lvm2 from Debian unstable for lvmlockd and sanlock support" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174198611:35
zomaarWell for some reason I had boot issues with the new LVM from Yakkety11:35
marcoscosmosonly lvm and other packages from whatever you pin if any will be unsupported11:35
zomaarSure but11:35
zomaarThose weren' there yet when coming from kernel 4.4.011:35
zomaarI was always able to use the newer LVM in Xenial11:36
zomaarI hadn't figured out yet how to troubleshoot that11:36
zomaarNow I know11:36
zomaarWell no because I didn't even get an initramfs prompt11:37
zomaarI am currently sitting in Yakkety kernel ;-) (4.8.0) with Yakkety LVM11:37
zomaarIt has some issues with my USB3 and the Nouveau turns my screen off if the monitor is not connected11:38
zomaarbut only the HDMI-monitor11:38
zomaarI have yet to test the 4.10 kernel now11:38
zomaarAnd 4.4 I guess11:39
zomaarMy download link is also so slow that it takes a few hours to download a new kernel11:39
zomaarSo I salvaged them from installer media ;-)11:39
zomaarI'm just dpkg-repacking everything I need11:40
zomaarI grabbed 4.4.0 from the original Xenial DVD11:41
zomaarNewer udev gives issues with my 3G modem11:41
zomaarThrough its rules; not the daemon itself11:42
zomaarSo I also have to downgrade udev to the version from Xenial11:42
zomaarWhich I also grabbed from an installer medium ;-).11:43
zomaarBecause it takes too long to constantly update sources ;-).11:43
zomaarYeah a shitload of trouble isn't it.11:43
marcoscosmoshaha yeah11:45
zomaarI am just afraid of compiling LVM myself.11:45
zomaarI first just wanted to try prepackaged versions, because it can't really be worse than that.11:46
zomaar(How does one replace the running LVM if it is depended on by initramfs-tools and such)11:46
zomaar(While not messing up the package system)11:46
marcoscosmostbh you get used to it11:47
marcoscosmosand its usually just11:47
marcoscosmosmake && sudo make install11:47
zomaarSure but you want to put it in /usr/local11:47
zomaarBecause initramfs-tools is going to copy it from /sbin11:48
zomaarSo that's more trouble11:48
marcoscosmosthe location is usually determined by the make configure right?11:48
marcoscosmosif you're luck you can run ./configure or such and there's an option to redirect it11:48
zomaarSure but you don't want to overwrite the /sbin files and I would have to check whether any initramfs-hooks get updated etc.11:49
user03I guess that I will mostly be safe with the OS patches for spectre........a bad bios upgrade can brick your computer.....11:49
zomaarJust more trouble I guess11:50
marcoscosmosyeah idk anything about initramfs11:50
zomaarIn fact some programs always install in /sbin11:50
TJ-zomaar: I missed why you're wanting to maintain your own lvm2, care to summarise?11:50
zomaarNo I don't want to, I just want to use a later Ubuntu package11:51
zomaarI was just saying how much trouble it is if I don't11:51
TJ-zomaar: right, but due to what issue?11:51
zomaarLVM Xenial has no protection against duplicate UUIDs and handles that very badly.11:51
zomaarThey introduced better handling somwhere in 162 or so11:51
zomaarThat's the most important one11:52
zomaarIt can basically replace the running PV of an activated VG without you noticing11:52
zomaarBecause some disk you connect is "preferred" due to its name or something11:53
zomaarThis then completely destroys your filesystem in the sense of corrupting all open files and their inodes11:53
zomaarVersion 162 will not randomly replace PVs like that11:53
zomaarSo e.g. if you were able to connect some USB stick to Xenial with the same UUID as what's running on your system11:54
zomaarYou are in for some trouble11:54
zomaarYou can basically destroy someone's system once you know the UUID11:54
TJ-Right, but it begs the question of why you'd have multiple PVs with the same UUID /online/ at the same time and not configure lvm.conf to ignore one of the devices11:54
zomaarThat's nice if you can do that correctly11:55
zomaarBut chrooted LVM also has a lvm.conf and can mess it up again11:55
zomaarI mean11:55
zomaarThis dependency on a file is rather bad11:55
zomaarThe first time I didn't know to do that.11:56
TJ-The whole point of a UUID is in it's name: Universally /Unique/ IDentifier11:56
zomaarA user will just use dd and get into a world of trouble11:56
zomaarThen when you discover how to shield you can still mess up11:57
zomaarIn this case I messed up because11:57
TJ-so if it is no longer unique ... expect problems especially when you're doing premediated non-standard operations and configurations11:57
zomaarThe live system had automatically activated the volume groups of course11:57
zomaarWhen I shielded the origin they were still activated11:58
zomaarAnd still used11:58
zomaardd is actually supported operation by LVM11:58
zomaarby doing vgimportclone11:59
zomaarbut you have to shield first correctly11:59
zomaarAnd do everything in the right order12:00
zomaarI mean they rewrote LVM to protect against this use case12:00
zomaarRecognising the trouble12:00
TJ-I do data forensics and recovery which involves a lot of cloning, sometimes with LVM, and (so far) I've managed not to have LVM get confused :)12:01
zomaarAlso version 168 does not have protection against --split-cache and then re-attach the cache12:01
zomaarIt will use the old metadata and corrupt your filesystem12:01
zomaarYou must be better at it then I am ;-)12:01
TJ-Right, the way I deal with it is to change the cloned VGs' host value12:01
TJ-That's also how vgexport/vgimportclone manage it12:02
zomaarThat makes sense12:02
zomaarHey I am just a new user in a certain sense12:02
zomaarI do not know how to do everything and have not had formal training or anything12:02
zomaarZdenek of LVM said that --split-cache was just meant as a debugging feature, not for actual use12:03
zomaarBut it was exposed that way and caused mayhem12:03
zomaarIn version 171 they now protect against that12:03
zomaarAnd automatically clean the cache upon reconnect12:04
zomaarSo that was one of my "oops, corrupted my filesystem" instances12:04
zomaarMaybe my concentration is not always perfect12:05
zomaarBut I always manage to mess it up12:05
zomaar(I have bad short term memory these days)12:05
marcoscosmosI've always had shit short term12:06
marcoscosmosor more specifically12:06
marcoscosmosshit working memory12:06
zomaarMe it started with a hit to the head12:06
zomaarBack in 201412:06
marcoscosmosI have ADHD and some kind of melatonin/adrenaline imbalance12:07
marcoscosmosI /can/ sleep12:07
marcoscosmosI've gotten better at that once I'm in bed12:07
marcoscosmosbut staying awake is just so ridiculously easy12:08
zomaarI am jealous a bit now12:08
zomaarI always fall asleep when I don't want to.12:08
zomaarI still don't know if my 4.10 kernel will boot at this point or give me an initrd prompt or something12:09
marcoscosmosI rarely get 8 hours12:09
marcoscosmosmaybe once or twice a month12:10
zomaarHalf of the time the kernel hangs on some USB issie12:10
marcoscosmosso I'm going to die quite a bit younger than you12:10
zomaarMy current boot took a few minutes because it was hanging on usb312:10
zomaarOther times, it is hanging on some USB stick12:10
zomaarUSB stick = entire kernel stalls12:11
TJ-zomaar: why does it hang? device initialising or some userspace service during boot?12:11
zomaarUSB device reset or something12:11
zomaarThis time it was:12:11
zomaar[ 8152.312303] hub 3-1.4:1.0: hub_ext_port_status failed (err = -110)12:11
TJ-zomaar: sounds like you need 4.13 kernel12:12
zomaarThis is 4.8, 4.10 doesn't do that12:12
zomaarMaybe yes12:12
zomaarThe other one is some Mushkin USB stick that has trouble with nVidia chipsets or something12:13
zomaarI am going to reboot to 4.10 and 4.4 now to see what happens ;-).12:13
zomaarBrb, maybe12:13
zomaar4.10 does boot it just takes a while longer because udev has some issue with libdevmapper or something12:27
zomaarWhich is due to the kernel12:27
zomaarWith the libdevmapper of Yakkety I mean12:27
zomaarAnd no usb 3 problem12:29
zomaarI was just impatient once more12:29
zomaarSo annoying but not as severe as I thought12:30
zomaarAnd in the end the only problem I had was that12:31
zomaarinitramfs doesn't tell you there is a mount problem12:31
zomaarAnd regular mount has no issue mounting the device12:31
zomaarduring a live session12:31
zomaarSo how was I supposed to know it hangs because it feels you have to manually fsck it :-/.12:32
zomaarEven after manually mounting it it wouldn't continue :-/.12:33
zomaarWasted 2 days on that12:33
zomaarYou have to turn on "debug" and check /run/initramfs/file to know what is even going on12:34
zomaarBut I couldn't ask how to find out because "Yakkety"12:37
zomaarI had edited lvm.conf while lvm was confused as to the backing PV12:45
zomaarAfter I had fixed the issue12:45
zomaarlvm.conf had turned into a binary blob ;-)12:46
zomaarMeaning the inode didn't agree with the data12:46
zomaarProbably because vi changes the inode while saving?12:46
zomaarIt does12:47
zomaarThis was actually caused by the cache being updated with the new inode and then connecting to the old PV though12:49
zomaarSo on the "correct" PV the file hadn't been written yet, but its accompanying file system structure had12:52
zomaarWhy do you write on a backup? I just wanted to chroot into it and check things but the chroot has a different lvm.conf12:54
marcoscosmosI'd suggest symlinking them but I'm not sure that that works across id changes or such?13:01
zomaar"I'm in for a world of pain"13:01
zomaar"But that's your normal state of being"13:01
zomaar"Oh, well it's not so bad then."13:01
zomaarHa, you're still here13:02
marcoscosmosyeh just13:02
marcoscosmosvegitating before bed13:02
marcoscosmosI probably should just go to bed..13:02
zomaarSerioulsy trouble ceases to have its worrisome quality when you realize trouble is the normal13:03
marcoscosmosI'm rarely worried so much as13:03
zomaarOr if danger is the normal, then you're like, hey, I like this13:04
daftykinsengaged and enraged at the same time? :)13:04
zomaarYou start to feel secure in feeling in danger13:04
zomaarI am furious too most of the time13:05
zomaarSometimes with myself but just as often with the bad software13:05
daftykinsyou need to learn to let go of that second one, that'll always exist :)13:05
zomaarLet go of the bad software, indeed13:06
daftykinsi just ran into someone i got a job with at the same time, 10 years ago... i was straight out of Uni and he had spent many years working in IT support in finance circles13:06
daftykinshe was _utterly_ useless, they got rid of him and kept me on... today he recognised me and in chatting, said he's still running Windows XP13:07
zomaarWait what so when you got the job he had a different background?13:08
daftykinsno still IT support, which the job we got was, just they thought he was meant to be competent from having done it for so many years13:08
daftykinsguy couldn't even install an OS properly13:08
daftykins"when we get servers they just come with discs to set them up"13:09
daftykinsugh :P13:09
zomaarStill work is a luxury you know13:09
zomaarI mean being able to work somewhere where you learn stuff13:09
zomaarOr where you are surrounded by knowledgeable people13:10
daftykinsif you're not on a tight leash and have freedom to impelement what you choose, you can learn plenty by yourself13:11
zomaarNot so easy13:11
zomaarTiny things13:12
zomaarThat a colleage could tell you13:12
zomaarMay take you a year to find out because it doesn't seem important enough to research at that moment13:12
zomaarAnd this tiny bit of information can cause enormous headaches when you need the info at a crucial moment13:13
zomaarStuff that is obvious to someone but it's not in the documentation13:13
zomaarStuff like enter, ~, .13:14
zomaarOr g/G13:15
zomaarOr :w !sudo tee %13:15
zomaarThere is so much stuff that makes life a lot easier13:16
zomaarBut it's more common knowledge than stuff you hunt for13:16
zomaarIt's this common knowledge that gets more easily shared between people13:16
zomaarWhat about dpkg-repack13:17
zomaarWhat about apt-file13:17
zomaarIf you use aptitude you can find out13:17
zomaarNot if you just use apt or apt-get13:17
zomaarI once spent a few hours reading through the package lists of Debian 713:17
zomaarI learned a lot13:17
lordievader`man apt-file` works fine here.13:18
zomaarBecause aptitude13:18
zomaarThat's great Lordievader13:18
zomaarI am happy for you13:19
lordievaderI'm not really sure what you are arguing about, it seems to me that the things you mention are easily findable with a bit of Googleing (but I may be missing the point).13:19
daftykinsi'm not hugely following either (:13:20
zomaarBut anyway daftykins, that's the reason why I say having colleagues helps ;-).13:20
daftykinsi could understand in the context of someone new to Linux starting a job with it, perhaps... otherwise, pass13:20
zomaarSo lordievader tell me how to find out about dpkg-repack, apt-file, and apt-offline with one google query13:21
zomaarWithout knowing the names of these tools beforehand13:21
zomaarOr that the feature even exists, you might say13:22
lordievaderWell, usually you have a job that needs doing. You google for that. If it is the right tool for the job someone will mention it.13:22
zomaarSo what if you never need to dpkg-repack because apt download also handles the task 99% of cases so you never feel the need to google for it?13:23
lordievaderWhy do you need to know about some program B if program A does everything you need done?13:24
lordievaderOr let me put it differently. apt-get and aptitude do largely the same thing. I use apt-get, do I need to know what aptitude does, what kind of flags it accept, etc?13:25
lordievaderI'd argue it is a waste of time since I don't use aptitude and apt-get does the stuff I need it to do.13:25
lordievaderHmm... that is not very sportive.13:25
daftykinsi use apt now :> 4 fewer characters to type!13:28
lordievaderSame here. And it has progress bars 😁13:29
zomaarSorry my system froze or at least the keyboard13:44
zomaarAnd now in 4.4.0 every time I run xrandr it kills my X session13:44
zomaarI am improving things13:44
daftykinssounds like a fragile stack of twigs13:45
zomaarI must be the greatest system administrator in the world.13:45
zomaarI achieve things no one has ever dreamed of13:45
zomaarNext up I will blow at my computer and the pentagon will explode13:45
zomaarBy accident13:46
zomaarNot sure how I did that13:46
zomaarThere is some power in that breath!13:46
zomaarI am actually afraid of blowing at my monitor now13:47
zomaarLet's not unnecessarily risk things13:47
zomaarBut yeah Lordievader if you don't have internet access once upon the time and this is the exact moment you need dpkg-repack you are screwed13:49
marcoscosmosso wait13:49
marcoscosmosis unity fully discontinued?13:49
zomaarI think so13:49
marcoscosmosafter 16 goes after of support, no more unity?13:49
zomaarBasically unless someone maintains it13:49
marcoscosmosMust have been really unpopular13:49
zomaarYou can still install it for the time being I think13:50
daftykinsi thought someone forked it already13:50
zomaarYeah but question is whether it will be available and how well13:51
zomaarDepending on google for your every solution is not the greatest either13:52
daftykinsi don't use desktop Linux so :)13:53
zomaarAnd what if half of that time you could have used dpkg-repack instead of apt download and it would have been a better solution, but you were not actively in need of it because the other solution also worked?13:54
zomaarSo you were never compelled to seek out the alternative?13:54
zomaarOr, since you can close Konsole windows, you never needed enter, ~, . ?13:54
zomaarIt would just have saved a lot of time if you knew how?13:55
marcoscosmosyeh so apparently gnome doesn't support external window managers so13:55
marcoscosmossince unity is out13:55
marcoscosmosmate was supposed to support it but glitched the fuck out13:56
marcoscosmosI'm gunna try KDE and LXDE13:56
marcoscosmosbecause KDE is pretty13:56
marcoscosmosand LXDE is light so if kde fails, LDXE should give me the bare minimum with little fuss13:56
daftykinsmarcoscosmos: watch the language in the 'buntu channels13:57
marcoscosmosoh, sorry!13:58
zomaarThey've moved the packages of Yakkety away now which is cute because it can still download packages that haven't changed from Yakkety to Aardvark :p13:59
marcoscosmosMust have been really unpopular14:01
zomaarWhat, those packages?14:01
zomaarOr the move14:01
daftykinsyou're pointing one release to another release's packages? are you insane?14:01
zomaarWell the easy answer is yes I am14:02
zomaarThen I don't have to answer why14:02
marcoscosmoswell I've selectively pointed 1-2 packages in isolation to another release with no consequeces, daftykins14:02
zomaarHistory tells that the Prince of Yi (or something) in China pretended to be insane14:02
daftykinsmarcoscosmos: i didn't mean you14:03
zomaarSo that he didn't have to fulfill any obligations on the court of his monarch (emperor)14:03
daftykinszomaar: hrmm then you have no idea what you're doing, enjoy14:03
zomaarBecause the emperor was a tyrant14:03
marcoscosmosbut it's kind of a niche scenario where I can garauntee no other packages in the active release even know about those two packages existing in the short term14:04
zomaarBy claiming insanity he was left alone14:04
marcoscosmosan if they ever did then I wouldn't need to be doing the pinning in the first place14:04
marcoscosmosso it'd be fine :P14:04
zomaarSee it works :)14:05
zomaarI don't have to answer why14:05
zomaarWhat has been unpopular marcoscosmos?14:07
marcoscosmosoh no your thing is nuts14:07
marcoscosmosyou're mainly doing it because your speed sucks by the sounds anyway14:07
marcoscosmosunity, zomaar14:07
zomaarMaybe sortof14:08
zomaarDon't want to go into why exactly14:08
zomaarBut it's true that I cannot just download images14:08
marcoscosmosWell I mean you're selecting older packages where you want newer ones by the sounds s14:09
marcoscosmosin certain package14:09
zomaarUnity wasn't unpopular with people I think14:09
marcoscosmosthen why discontinue it?14:10
zomaarBut it also wasn't the success and Canonical decided that more money was in cloud14:10
marcoscosmosusually stuff would fork officially instead14:10
zomaarBecause apparently Gnome 3 was to a point that it was okayish14:10
zomaarAnd Unity's goal was not really fully reached14:10
zomaarPhone convergence didn't really work out well14:11
marcoscosmosyeah Iguess now they're doing that thing where the donators select what to fund14:11
zomaarAnd Canonical made great headway into the container business14:11
zomaarWell they are huge in the cloud14:12
zomaarIt brings in $$14:12
zomaarUbuntu is now a specialized container ecosystem basically14:12
zomaarWith the best container support perhaps of any distribution14:13
zomaarEven LXD may be a Canonical creation14:13
zomaarI think Canonical just collected the gains and jumped out14:14
zomaarIn Dutch we say "choosing eggs for your money"14:14
zomaarIe. chances are you won't get something better, and instead of risking it all you quickly purchase something that will be good enough and exit the scene14:15
zomaarSo Canonical left the Desktop business and focuses now on the container business14:16
zomaarA bit crudely said14:16
zomaarThose game shows where you can collect the cash or take a shot on a higher prize14:18
zomaarWhen you collect the cash and leave, that is called "eieren voor je geld kiezen"14:18
zomaar(eggs for your money)14:18
zomaarYou can look at Canonical's cloud support offerings etc.14:19
zomaarSo instead of making their own Desktop Environment, they only make their own skin for Gnome14:21
zomaarLesser task14:21
zomaarStill looks the same in colours14:21
marcoscosmosmmm it probably works better anywau14:21
marcoscosmosanyway off, night!14:22
zomaarIf someone puts a desktop on a server they won't care so much that Gnome 3 is just a kiosk14:22
zomaarWell Gnome 3 is a bit of a Kiosk OS compared to KDE14:23
zomaarBut Unity was also that; netbooks14:23
zomaarUnity was great for small resolutions because that's how it was developed14:23
zomaarIe. you have 1024x600 and put Unity on it14:24
zomaarThat's what it was original called14:24
zomaarNetbook something14:24
zomaarOn a netbook you don't want excessive features because you don't even have a mouse14:25
zomaarThe environment needs to be small and workable14:25
zomaarNo captions, just buttons, and the panel to the left14:25
zomaarHorizontal panel eats up too much of that 600 pixels14:26
zomaarThat's why Unity has the panel on the left basically14:26
zomaarUnity is also great for concentration14:30
zomaarIe. I had Ubuntu 14.04 or 12.04 and it had no support for my monitor14:30
zomaarSo the resolution was 1024x768 or even 800x600 and everything was huge14:31
zomaarAnd it was a bliss14:31
zomaarNothing else that you can do but code14:31
zomaarUnity also looks pleasing to big soft round orange shapes14:32
marcoscosmos haha I see14:33
marcoscosmosI dislike orange14:33
marcoscosmosbut it goes great with purple14:33
zomaarOrange is the new14:33
marcoscosmosanyway, bye14:33
nicomachustomreyn: 10:23|     altaiir| nicomachus: Sooooorry, I mistake my keys that wooorks thanks16:25
nicomachus10:24|     altaiir| it's pg up pg down less maj16:25
nicomachustook a few tries... definitely not english as a first language.16:26
nacczomaar: offtopic for the support channel17:00
nacci can't say enough how much i disagree with you17:00
naccand you really should not suggest that in the official support channel17:00
zomaarYou have no regard for practical concerns17:04
nicomachuswe have no regard for bad/non-solutions17:05
zomaarAnd if someone is in prison they also cannot upgrade their server17:05
nicomachusand no regard for useless hypotheticals17:05
zomaarSo you are saying doing impossible things is a solution?17:05
nacczomaar: lol17:05
naccif they are in prison17:05
naccand have ssh access to their remote server17:05
naccwhich they have not had for say 9 months17:05
nicomachusupgrade your installation when it's EOL. if you can't, then install an LTS release.17:05
naccso their release could go eol17:05
naccthen they didn't care about their computer in that time17:05
zomaarHow is that not caring?17:06
nacczomaar: i would appreciate it if you would avoid ad homenim responses17:06
zomaarYou are telling me I should not be in the support channel17:06
zomaarI would appreciate if you would not do that17:07
nicomachusI think nacc has some authority on that17:08
zomaarAnd also their server kept running and kept serving their webpages17:08
zomaarNow what?17:08
nacczomaar: i never said that17:09
nacczomaar: i said don't suggest that in the support channel17:09
nacczomaar: and possibly got hacked in the meanwhile17:09
naccand is now vulnerable to any number of CVEs17:10
zomaarzomaar: if you're suggesting it's better to run an EOL release than to upgrade, i'm sorry, you should't be helping here17:10
zomaarAlso you are doing really a straw-man argument because this user did want to upgrade17:11
zomaarSo I never suggested he stay on Yakkety17:11
naccwhat straw-man? you had literally just said 'not everyone is in the position to upgrade'17:11
zomaarBecause any help I gave was in the context of this person17:12
naccit's in the public channel17:12
naccit's in the context of the ubuntu support channel17:12
zomaarAnd suggesting someone do a dist upgrade within his release is the first step to getting ahead with the upgrade as well17:13
zomaarSo dist-upgrade should be the first thing you do regardless of whether this person wants to move on or not17:14
zomaarOnce that's done, you can discuss how it's done17:14
zomaarOtherwise the support question becomes too big in one go17:14
naccyou've lost me now17:15
nacci don't think anyone said anything against making a eol release current before do-release-upgrade17:15
naccthat is in fact the official community guidance17:15
zomaarYou advizes against it if that person was not planning to do-release-upgrade17:17
zomaarBut that just complicates matters17:17
naccif they are not planning on d-r-u, they are not supported, and they are offtopic for the support channel!17:17
zomaarThen you are leaving them more vulnerable than if they would be if they did dist-upgrade17:18
zomaarAlso they have to do the step anyway and now became closer to choosing do-release-upgrade17:18
naccyou are giving them false security by saying they are somehow current17:18
zomaarNo it's the right direction anyway17:19
naccthe right direction for an EOL release is !eolupgrade17:19
naccnot, get current then make a decision about whether to upgrade or not17:19
zomaarThat's how life works nacc17:19
zomaarSometimes we have to take things in small steps17:19
zomaarNot trying to be insolent here17:20
zomaarBut stuff becomes easier if you can first just do the obvious17:20
naccthe obvious is follow the eolupgrade page!17:20
zomaarGet that done, and then move on17:20
naccwhich happens to involve a dist-upgrade using old-releases17:20
naccand then an immediate d-r-u17:20
zomaarYes well in this case d-r-u didn't work17:21
zomaarOr something in any case17:21
naccbecause they were *two* releases out of date17:21
naccso they should just reinstall, tbh17:21
zomaarMaybe I was wrong about it17:21
naccagain, as said17:21
naccor do two eol upgrades17:21
zomaarThere is still no point in not making them do dist-upgrade because after that you can push them on if you want and if they want17:22
nacczomaar: again, i don't think anyone said not to dist-upgrade17:22
nacczomaar: the point was, if they are going to stay on zesty, their system is unsupported, vulnerable and should be disabled anyways17:23
nacczomaar: and they should have installed an LTS in the first place if they weren't going to pay ttention to support timelines17:23
zomaarThat's mustard after the meal ;-)17:23
naccno, it's education.17:23
zomaarChastising people doesn't help17:24
naccdid the user you were helping understand *why* they were in the position they were in?17:24
zomaarNot now in any case17:24
zomaarWell yes apparently they hadn't been paying attention and wanted to fix that now asap17:24
naccdid you tell them what to pay attentino to?17:24
naccor what the difference between lts and non-lts is?17:25
naccor did you put them in the position to have to do this exactly again in 6 onths17:25
zomaarIt's funny17:25
zomaarWith the programmer vs software-engineer you said that the programmer doesn't think ahead ;-).17:26
zomaarI was solving the problem first, discuss later17:26
zomaarI can't be responsible for everyone's mindsets17:26
naccI don't believe I said the programmer does *not* think ahead17:26
zomaarWell in any case once this person is on Aardvark he has a supported do-release-upgrade, that's all I cared about.17:27
zomaarIf the system is then dysfynctional in some way he can always reinstall17:27
zomaarHe prefered upgrading in-place17:27
zomaarHe thought Aardvark had been pulled, etc17:28
zomaarBtw I don't see how waiting till support ends before you upgrade is in any way counter to the intent of the system17:39
zomaarE.g. supposing apt would give an error message indicating end of support that would only be a very normal thing to have17:41
zomaarand if it also included instructions on how to upgrade, that would only be very normal as well17:41
naccapt doesn't knwo what support is17:42
naccyou upgrade *before* support ends17:42
zomaarJust because someone waits one week, supposedly, before upgrading, doesn't immediately disqualify them from being 'good administrators' or anything17:42
naccnot after17:42
zomaarI know17:42
naccuh, yeah it does17:42
zomaarWell yeah again but this is real life17:43
zomaarThis is the normal17:43
zomaarAny business will encounter that17:43
naccmaybe your normal17:43
zomaarNo everyone's normal17:43
zomaarThis is how users are17:43
nacczomaar: please don't tell me what my normal is17:43
naccor assume you know everything about users17:43
zomaarI said the normal of all other businesses out there mostly.17:43
nacc'all', 'mostly'17:44
zomaarPlease don't feel so personally addressed if I have already qualified my statement17:44
zomaarYes, that's also very normal language.17:44
naccqualified it to mean nothing17:45
naccall X do Y mostly17:45
naccdoesn't mean much17:45
naccand unless you've talked to all businesses out there ...17:45
zomaarYou may disagree with ordinary language all you want17:45
zomaarYou may also disagree with what Microsoft, Apple etc. are facing17:46
zomaarI can guarantee you it's the same17:46
naccthat's nice17:46
naccnot sure what your guarantee is worth it in this case17:46
naccand you've used up quite a bit of my morning now17:46
naccso have a nice day17:46
zomaarI am not sure what you are arguing17:46
zomaarGood day17:47
Bashing-omHere we go again .. and it's Friday support :)19:29
nicomachusBashing-om: sure is... been kinda awful all day20:13
Bashing-omnicomachus: Well, still more intertaining to watch irc than commercial TV :P20:14
nacctomreyn: gl :)23:27
tomreyn:) thanks, and good night to you!23:27
nacctomreyn: oh i'm awake for a while23:27
naccjust worried for your sanity now :)23:27
tomreynoh :)23:28
tomreyni should probbaly suggest to install inxi, then run inxi -adslfgbnhfasjlhbgösjwleg | pastebinit23:28
naccgoodness, ENOPARSE on that last one23:29
TJ-tomreyn: I'd just ask the user to send me an ISO image of the entire system :p23:30
naccTJ-: i thought you were going to sleep :-P23:30
daftykinshe always says that ;)23:31
* TJ- is sleep hacking23:32
TJ-actually, I'm trying to shoo the huskies out for the night into their beds but they're playing hide'n'seek :)23:32
Svetahow many huskies have you got, TJ-?23:33
TJ-only 2 ... for now, plus a collie23:34
TJ-while 1 heads towards the door the other sneaks off :)23:35
tomreynoh TJ was going to sleep, i knew someone was going to!23:37
tomreynISO image is a good idea, too, i'll make a note.23:37
TJ-g'night... 1st time before midnight in a week - doing far too much clubbing :p23:38
tomreyn#ubuntu clubbing23:40
tomreynnow i'm getting worried for my sanity, too23:40
Svetais https://askubuntu.com/questions/293028/how-can-i-install-ubuntu-encrypted-with-luks-with-dual-boot still relevant?23:40
SvetaI'm not sure whether the installer handles encrypted dual boot installs out of the box, "Thaelim" seems to want to do this23:41
daftykinsthis isn't a support channel23:41
SvetaI know. I'm helping someone and I'm a bit stuck :P23:41
Svetaif there's another place where people-who-are-helping coordinate effort, please let me know.23:41
daftykinsbest guy for encrypted setup questions just went to bed23:42
tomreyni guess i would just install $otheros, then make sure there is unpartitioned space, then install ubuntu with encryption + lvm23:44
daftykinsthe recent CPU design flaws point to none of it being hugely worthwhile anyway, in a way :)23:47
tomreynME is not a design flaw23:47
tomreynand, if you trust intel's PR, meltdown and spectre are neither :P23:48
daftykinsunsure why you're trying to use disinformation as a counter23:48
tomreyndaftykins: disinformation?23:54
daftykinsyeah intel defending themselves23:55
daftykinsit was a 'bug' they denied meltdown/spectre were though, not design flaws iirc23:55
tomreyndo you mean they are not defending themselves, or that i should not insinuate that they do, or do you mean they are defending themsellves and that i said they do not?23:56
tomreyni just can't follow and would like to understand what you mean.23:57
tomreyni exxagerated, sarcastically, but did not mean to spread disinfo.23:57
daftykinsugh. them defending their chips was kinda disinformation, in a way23:58
tomreynoh, okay. i was thinking you suggested i was disinforming.23:59

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