[00:58] <nacc> seriously, eol upgradse are not this difficult
[01:03] <Bashing-om> !cookie | nacc
[01:03] <nacc> Bashing-om: lol
[01:03] <nacc> i've been in a bad mood all day with these users! :)
[01:03] <nacc> oh well, also fixing this nasty packaging bug hasn't helped :)
[01:03] <Bashing-om> nacc: My patience would have expired long past with this one :)
[01:04] <nacc> seriously, it's like they both forgot how to read! :)
[01:05] <Bashing-om> nacc: Addeled brained now and can no longer read for comprehension - reckon ?
[01:06] <nacc> Bashing-om: anything is possible :)
[01:10] <Bashing-om> nacc: Settled down and ya got a "thank you " :)
[05:27] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[05:27] <Sveta> hello
[05:27] <lotuspsychje> hey Sveta
[05:28] <lotuspsychje> Sveta: all good today?
[05:29] <Sveta> i burnt my feet by walking on a melting rock yesterday, but it doesn't hurt much, just sensitive to heat, so no walking for me this weekend
[05:29] <Sveta> apart from that everything is fine
[05:29] <lotuspsychje> wow
[05:29] <lotuspsychje> Sveta: walk too long?
[05:30] <Sveta> i walked for one hour, but it was a very hot rock
[05:30] <lotuspsychje> ah i see
[05:53] <Bashing-om> Time ! .. g nite guys \o
[05:53] <lotuspsychje> nite
[05:53] <oerheks> :-)
[05:54] <lotuspsychje> hey oerheks
[05:54] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: oerheks .. all --- take care till we meet again :)
[06:28] <lotuspsychje> bbl shower
[06:30] <oerheks> smell ya
[06:52] <marcoscosmos> Hi folks 0/
[06:52] <Sveta> hi
[06:53] <Sveta> i'm a bit frustrated by how many DE-specific questions get asked in ubuntu channels, i can't possibly know the buttons in them all and often they're not fully documented
[06:55] <marcoscosmos> Mmm
[06:55] <marcoscosmos> It's kind of like shooting into the aether to ask them
[06:56] <marcoscosmos> But like, how do people even know if the flavour of ubuntu they have has a custom build of the DE?
[06:57] <marcoscosmos> So, it kind of makes sense to ask IMO. Expecting an answer is another matter
[06:58] <Sveta> hey many people download ubuntu and do not even know which flavour they are using
[06:59] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:01] <marcoscosmos> That's very true. When I first started using linux I managed to install both Ubuntu and Kubuntu on the same drive without formatting in between
[07:01] <marcoscosmos> Morning!
[07:01] <marcoscosmos> (my laptop was not a happy camper after that)
[07:02] <lordievader> Ubuntu and Kubuntu have the same core. If the problem is unrelated to the DE it shouldn't really matter which flavour they are running. If they don't know which version... that is  something else.
[07:04] <marcoscosmos> In my case the problem was that it corrupted files and led to competiting services etc. Not because they are incompatible but because files from one install were left behind and the second didn't have proper control over them
[07:05] <marcoscosmos> (e.g. a bunch of files in /etc/usr/share that weren't registered into apt)
[07:06] <marcoscosmos> I was too much of a nub to understand at the time
[07:06] <Sveta> that's ok
[07:07] <marcoscosmos> It was also like
[07:07] <Sveta> not knowing the names of software that you are using is a bit more worrying to me
[07:07] <Sveta> makes it a pain to troubleshoot
[07:07] <marcoscosmos> 9 years ago, give or take
[07:07] <marcoscosmos> Yeah true.
[07:08] <lordievader> Sveta: Sure, but if you are completely new  to the game it ain't surprising. Suddenly you are bombarded with terms you never heared of.
[07:11] <Sveta> after installing a linux distro the users need to be gradually exposed to some key concepts
[07:11] <Sveta> we could suggest them to read one small knowledge base article a day if they like
[07:11] <Sveta> little load, lots of benefits
[07:12] <marcoscosmos> okay I've updated xorg.. now lets see if my damn xorg settings stick this time
[07:12] <marcoscosmos> brb
[07:14] <lordievader> Sveta: Good idea. Unfortunately people are lazy 😞
[07:14] <Sveta> they're less lazy than you think
[07:15] <immu> hi all
[07:16] <lordievader> Hey immu
[07:16] <immu> hye lordievader whats up
[07:16] <lordievader> Doing allright here, how are you?
[07:26] <immu> i am going doing maintenace in Windows
[07:26] <lordievader> immu: Good luck 😉
[07:28] <immu> :)
[07:30] <immu> still need to keep Windows for various reasons
[07:30] <lordievader> Same here.
[07:35] <immu> On Windows illegal kernel calls where causing blue screens
[07:35] <immu> by antovirus vendors
[07:36] <Sveta> were
[07:37] <lordievader> Well, wouldn't be the first time Mircosoft re-added stuff to the system to make antivirus software work.... (suposing these are deprecated calls)
[07:38] <marcoscosmos> Okay back, I kind of got it working?
[07:38] <jink> Good for you.  Whatever it was you got working.  Kind of.
[07:39] <ducasse> good morning, everyone
[07:39] <jink> ^__^
[07:39] <lordievader> > // ACHTUNG!!! this is a special hack for IBM antivirus software
[07:39] <lordievader> immu above quote comes from http://atdt.freeshell.org/k5/story_2004_2_15_71552_7795.html
[07:39] <marcoscosmos> Lol. Basically my monitors are default-detected in the wrong positions and my xorg.conf kept getting reset at login for some reason.
[07:39] <lordievader> Hey ducasse
[07:39] <lordievader> How are you?
[07:40] <marcoscosmos> evening, ducasse
[07:40] <ducasse> hi lordievader - all good, thanks. and you?
[07:40] <marcoscosmos> Still dunno what's messing with xorg, but running xrandr after login now works in 17.10 (it was broken for some reason in 16.04)
[07:40] <lordievader> Doing good here 😁
[07:44] <immu> thats 2004 stuff @lordievader
[07:44] <lordievader> I know
[07:54] <marcoscosmos_> oops back xD
[07:58] <immu> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-says-no-more-windows-security-updates-unless-avs-set-a-registry-key/
[07:58] <immu> see lordievader
[07:59] <jink> immu: 404 ?
[07:59] <jink> Nope, it's me.  Last slash is important (God knows why).
[07:59] <immu> nope works for me
[08:00] <immu> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-says-no-more-windows-security-updates-unless-avs-set-a-registry-key
[08:00] <immu> check now
[08:00] <immu> Because some anti-virus vendors are using very questionable techniques they end up cause systems to ‘blue screen of death’ — aka get into reboot loops.
[08:14] <jink> immu: That last slash makes a difference, apparently.
[08:14] <immu> ok
[08:15] <immu> brb
[09:47] <EriC^^> morning all
[10:05] <immu> back
[10:14] <lordievader> 👋
[10:55] <marcoscosmos> gnome is fucking covoluted wtf
[10:57] <marcoscosmos> I bricked ubuntu by adding .desktop and .session files in /usr/share/xsessions and /usr/share/gnome-sessions apparently
[10:57] <marcoscosmos> -_-
[10:57] <marcoscosmos> realistically it was probably some kind of driver failure I suppose
[10:58] <zomaar> I am trying to get away from Xenial's LVM and failing every time because I make some mistake that corrupts my filesystem.
[10:58] <zomaar> But I'm not supported if I "import" a version from Yakkety or beyond, and the end result is every time that I can throw away my filesystem.
[10:59] <zomaar> That is to say, making "dd" copies of a disk is extremely dangerous.
[10:59] <marcoscosmos> yeah I'm doing some unsupported things too but, I can't concieve how they'd be related
[10:59] <zomaar> Because Xenial's LVM has no protection against having multiple disks with the same UUID
[10:59] <marcoscosmos> dangerous how?
[10:59] <marcoscosmos> oh fuck
[11:00] <marcoscosmos> ok
[11:00] <zomaar> You have to carefully shield the original disk using "global_filter" if you want to examine any of the disks while the other is still connected
[11:01] <marcoscosmos> I see
[11:01] <zomaar> If you make one mistake, it can start writing to the wrong disk
[11:01] <zomaar> To make matters worse I had a cache ;-) that I had forgotten to disconnect
[11:01] <marcoscosmos> RIP
[11:02] <zomaar> The problem was mostly that LVM depends on /etc/lvm/lvm.conf so in a chroot environment, this file is different
[11:02] <zomaar> So if you correctly shield in your live environment
[11:02] <zomaar> This correct shielding is gone once you enter a chroot
[11:02] <marcoscosmos> Right
[11:03] <zomaar> Then, if you somehow forget to deactivate the volumes before the shielding and reactivate them after the shielding
[11:03] <marcoscosmos> is it not possible to force the uuid to update/become unique or is it a problem that triggers mid dd?
[11:03] <zomaar> I mean if you don't do vgchange -an in between, and then vgchange -ay in the new situation....
[11:04] <zomaar> Well you can
[11:04] <zomaar> But if you do that the names and UUIDs of the backup change
[11:04] <zomaar> If you then want to copy on to a new disk
[11:04] <zomaar> You have to do it again
[11:04] <zomaar> I wanted to avoid that
[11:04] <zomaar> Having to do it twice
[11:05] <zomaar> Because I also had another disk connected that I had not copied (the cache)
[11:05] <zomaar> So if I change the UUIDs in the backup, I first have to disconnect it entirely from the cache
[11:05] <marcoscosmos> I see
[11:05] <zomaar> Because otherwise the names of the cache also change.
[11:05] <zomaar> So I have to remove a physical volume from the backup
[11:05] <marcoscosmos> Wait why's there a cache anyway?
[11:06] <zomaar> set
[11:06] <zomaar> Well I should have disconnected it I just forgot
[11:06] <marcoscosmos> wait by cache do you mean swap?
[11:06] <marcoscosmos> or is this some kind of raid scenario?
[11:06] <zomaar> I just have an LVM cache configured with an SSD for the HDDs.
[11:06] <zomaar> Sortof.
[11:07] <zomaar> Yeah so I made matters worse myself I guess.
[11:07] <zomaar> However disconnecting the cache from the backup means doing some LVM manipulation
[11:07] <zomaar> that will fail if you don't properly shield first ;-).
[11:07] <zomaar> So it's a chicken and egg problem at that point.
[11:08] <marcoscosmos> oh cache like hybrid-ssd-hdds
[11:08] <zomaar> So I had to disconnect prior to making the backup which I didn't do.
[11:08] <marcoscosmos> gotcha
[11:08] <zomaar> Yeah
[11:08] <zomaar> That
[11:08] <zomaar> But
[11:08] <zomaar> If I disconnect prior to making the backup
[11:08] <zomaar> And remove the extra physical volume
[11:08] <zomaar> Then adding it back later is going to be difficult.
[11:08] <zomaar> So it's just one big mess anyway.
[11:08] <marcoscosmos> why?
[11:09] <zomaar> Cause if I really remove the PV I also have to remove the volumes.
[11:09] <zomaar> Which means I have to make the entire cache structure again.
[11:09] <zomaar> So the only way to do it is to also dd the cache disk
[11:09] <zomaar> Which requires an extra disk for that too
[11:10] <zomaar> Then I can change them both at the same time and there are no issues.
[11:10] <marcoscosmos> shouldn't the volume-making be like. a script that runs at boot anyway?
[11:10] <marcoscosmos> boot times wouldn't be so great but
[11:10] <marcoscosmos> yknow
[11:10] <zomaar> Well no because they are persistent volumes.
[11:10] <marcoscosmos> in my experience having a hdd ni the fstab fucks boot anyway
[11:10] <zomaar> Ie. a cache has to persist.
[11:11] <marcoscosmos> why would a cache persist?
[11:12] <zomaar> Because it has to prime which data is often used so you can have fast boot times etc.
[11:12] <marcoscosmos> Ah
[11:13] <zomaar> E.g. the ureadahead thing
[11:13] <zomaar> Took about 5.5 seconds on my raid 0 system (using regular 5400 disks at this point)
[11:13] <zomaar> And with the cache connected it went down to 0.7 seconds.
[11:14] <zomaar> So that's a direct 5 second boot speedup.
[11:14] <zomaar> Anyway
[11:15] <zomaar> It's just one big giant mess.
[11:15] <zomaar> The way to do it then is to first make the dd, then properly shield the source disks and all the PVs
[11:15] <zomaar> Then in the shielded thing disconnect everything you don't want from the backup
[11:16] <zomaar> But I didn't want that because I wanted to copy the backup on ;-).
[11:16] <marcoscosmos> oh nice
[11:16] <marcoscosmos> but
[11:16] <marcoscosmos> I'm guessing you're doing this all as like
[11:16] <marcoscosmos> a script so
[11:16] <marcoscosmos> you don't have to deal with typoes every time
[11:17] <zomaar> Well no it is too complicated to write a script ahead of time I guess...
[11:17] <zomaar> I mean the first time...
[11:17] <zomaar> I don't worry about typos but...
[11:17] <marcoscosmos> no yeah I meant like
[11:17] <marcoscosmos> for future use
[11:17] <zomaar> I still don't know how to do it at this point.
[11:18] <marcoscosmos> Ah
[11:18] <zomaar> It's not just the cache, this would happen every time you had more than 1 PV.
[11:18] <marcoscosmos> Well don't worry too much
[11:18] <marcoscosmos> err
[11:18] <marcoscosmos> don't feel bad
[11:18] <zomaar> Yeah I just had an unbootable system because of a billion dangling inodes
[11:18] <marcoscosmos> commercial backup software is often utterly useless so
[11:19] <zomaar> I was just scanning what all the lost+found files had come from
[11:19] <zomaar> And I still need to find out how to do this.
[11:19] <zomaar> I guess the best way is disconnect any cache to be sure.
[11:19] <marcoscosmos> I figure the solution most people end up doing is using sync or some such to like, perpetually update key files rather than whole drives
[11:20] <zomaar> Then shield the source disks
[11:20] <zomaar> Exchange for target disks.
[11:20] <zomaar> Copy your own disk back to the target disk.
[11:20] <zomaar> Never touch the intermediate.
[11:20] <zomaar> Oh boy.
[11:21] <zomaar> Never mind, I will just do it slightly more correctly next time I guess.
[11:21] <zomaar> This is sorta the 3rd time this has happened to me at least.
[11:21] <marcoscosmos> I see
[11:22] <marcoscosmos> seems like an ineffectual way to do backups if you lose your original during xD
[11:22] <marcoscosmos> Ugh I'm stuck on windows for the night.
[11:22] <zomaar> The LVM of Xenial is considered unsupported by the LVM team because it is too old.
[11:22] <zomaar> They always tell me: UPGRADE
[11:22] <marcoscosmos> Windows and it's stacking window manager and mouse use mandates
[11:22] <marcoscosmos> I hate mice
[11:22] <marcoscosmos> oh wow okay
[11:23] <zomaar> But if I try to upgrade through Ubuntu, Ubuntu people tell me: we can't support that.
[11:23] <marcoscosmos> of course not
[11:23] <zomaar> So I'm stuck
[11:23] <marcoscosmos> is this a commercial grade deal?
[11:23] <marcoscosmos> or like
[11:23] <marcoscosmos> for private use?
[11:23] <zomaar> With an "I will kill your system" version of LVM
[11:23] <zomaar> Private use that this point
[11:23] <zomaar> Why?
[11:24] <marcoscosmos> because depending on the scenario you may not need support for your entire system
[11:24] <zomaar> If you happened to do this for a company and you used Xenial LVM you'd be in trouble
[11:24] <marcoscosmos> I use unsupported content and still get support for the rest
[11:25] <marcoscosmos> e.g. an external IDE
[11:25] <zomaar> Well generally I don't require to the detail support
[11:25] <zomaar> Just a few pointers.
[11:25] <zomaar> Like they wouldn't tell me how to debug initramfs
[11:25] <zomaar> Because I was using part of Yakkety
[11:25] <marcoscosmos> I'm usually coming here looking for info that's a PITA to google (after trying for a long time)
[11:26] <zomaar> When the problem was nothing to do with Yakkety
[11:26] <marcoscosmos> like
[11:26] <marcoscosmos> how the fuck gnome session even launches these days
[11:26] <zomaar> But anyway I have to continue wasting my life away
[11:26] <marcoscosmos> I spent like 4 hours trying to figure out how to launch the settings daemons and shit
[11:27] <marcoscosmos> only to inexplicably brick it
[11:27] <zomaar> I couldn't figure out how to start the KDE Power Savings settings from the command line
[11:27] <zomaar> Then I forgot I hadn't disabled it and my system went into standby while doing a download
[11:28] <zomaar> Which kinda ruined the entire next day for me
[11:28] <marcoscosmos> :\
[11:28] <marcoscosmos> yeah
[11:29] <zomaar> Anyway.
[11:29] <zomaar> I really now have to return to a clean Xenial and start everything all over again.
[11:29] <zomaar> Which I can't do because I'm also on a slow link
[11:30] <zomaar> So yes indeed
[11:30] <zomaar> Every time I make a backup it destroys my origin AND the backup
[11:31] <zomaar> LVM 171 has some protections against more errors
[11:31] <zomaar> But the latest version of LVM in Ubuntu is about 168
[11:31] <zomaar> Or maybe now
[11:32] <marcoscosmos> Why not just use the latest lvm with xenial?
[11:32] <zomaar> You mean compile from source?
[11:32] <zomaar> I know it's not difficult to compile it
[11:32] <marcoscosmos> No no
[11:33] <marcoscosmos> apt-pinning
[11:33] <zomaar> Bionic has version 168 which is too old
[11:33] <zomaar> But at least new enough to protect again the dual UUID issues
[11:33] <marcoscosmos> well you should also be able to pin from debian itself
[11:33] <marcoscosmos> not just ubuntu
[11:33] <marcoscosmos> including debian-testing
[11:33] <TJ-> zomaar: we'll be syncing lvm2 from debian shortly
[11:33] <zomaar> But that means using a newer version from Ubuntu
[11:34] <marcoscosmos> not with pinning
[11:34] <zomaar> Then when there is some issue they'll say I am unsupported
[11:34] <zomaar> Okay
[11:34] <marcoscosmos> pinning is unsupported but it can't be worse than your current situation
[11:35] <TJ-> Bug #1741986
[11:35] <zomaar> Well for some reason I had boot issues with the new LVM from Yakkety
[11:35] <marcoscosmos> only lvm and other packages from whatever you pin if any will be unsupported
[11:35] <zomaar> Sure but
[11:35] <zomaar> Those weren' there yet when coming from kernel 4.4.0
[11:36] <zomaar> I was always able to use the newer LVM in Xenial
[11:36] <zomaar> I hadn't figured out yet how to troubleshoot that
[11:36] <zomaar> Now I know
[11:37] <zomaar> Well no because I didn't even get an initramfs prompt
[11:37] <zomaar> I am currently sitting in Yakkety kernel ;-) (4.8.0) with Yakkety LVM
[11:38] <zomaar> It has some issues with my USB3 and the Nouveau turns my screen off if the monitor is not connected
[11:38] <zomaar> but only the HDMI-monitor
[11:38] <marcoscosmos> strange
[11:38] <zomaar> I have yet to test the 4.10 kernel now
[11:39] <zomaar> And 4.4 I guess
[11:39] <zomaar> My download link is also so slow that it takes a few hours to download a new kernel
[11:39] <zomaar> So I salvaged them from installer media ;-)
[11:40] <zomaar> I'm just dpkg-repacking everything I need
[11:41] <zomaar> I grabbed 4.4.0 from the original Xenial DVD
[11:41] <zomaar> Newer udev gives issues with my 3G modem
[11:42] <zomaar> Through its rules; not the daemon itself
[11:42] <zomaar> So I also have to downgrade udev to the version from Xenial
[11:43] <zomaar> Which I also grabbed from an installer medium ;-).
[11:43] <zomaar> Because it takes too long to constantly update sources ;-).
[11:43] <zomaar> Yeah a shitload of trouble isn't it.
[11:45] <marcoscosmos> haha yeah
[11:45] <zomaar> I am just afraid of compiling LVM myself.
[11:46] <zomaar> I first just wanted to try prepackaged versions, because it can't really be worse than that.
[11:46] <zomaar> (How does one replace the running LVM if it is depended on by initramfs-tools and such)
[11:46] <zomaar> (While not messing up the package system)
[11:47] <marcoscosmos> well
[11:47] <marcoscosmos> tbh you get used to it
[11:47] <marcoscosmos> and its usually just
[11:47] <marcoscosmos> make && sudo make install
[11:47] <zomaar> Sure but you want to put it in /usr/local
[11:48] <zomaar> Because initramfs-tools is going to copy it from /sbin
[11:48] <zomaar> But
[11:48] <zomaar> So that's more trouble
[11:48] <marcoscosmos> the location is usually determined by the make configure right?
[11:48] <marcoscosmos> if you're luck you can run ./configure or such and there's an option to redirect it
[11:49] <zomaar> Sure but you don't want to overwrite the /sbin files and I would have to check whether any initramfs-hooks get updated etc.
[11:49] <user03> I guess that I will mostly be safe with the OS patches for spectre........a bad bios upgrade can brick your computer.....
[11:50] <zomaar> Just more trouble I guess
[11:50] <marcoscosmos> yeah idk anything about initramfs
[11:50] <zomaar> In fact some programs always install in /sbin
[11:50] <TJ-> zomaar: I missed why you're wanting to maintain your own lvm2, care to summarise?
[11:51] <zomaar> No I don't want to, I just want to use a later Ubuntu package
[11:51] <zomaar> I was just saying how much trouble it is if I don't
[11:51] <TJ-> zomaar: right, but due to what issue?
[11:51] <zomaar> LVM Xenial has no protection against duplicate UUIDs and handles that very badly.
[11:51] <zomaar> They introduced better handling somwhere in 162 or so
[11:52] <zomaar> That's the most important one
[11:52] <zomaar> It can basically replace the running PV of an activated VG without you noticing
[11:52] <zomaar> runtime
[11:53] <zomaar> Because some disk you connect is "preferred" due to its name or something
[11:53] <zomaar> This then completely destroys your filesystem in the sense of corrupting all open files and their inodes
[11:53] <zomaar> Version 162 will not randomly replace PVs like that
[11:54] <zomaar> So e.g. if you were able to connect some USB stick to Xenial with the same UUID as what's running on your system
[11:54] <zomaar> You are in for some trouble
[11:54] <zomaar> You can basically destroy someone's system once you know the UUID
[11:54] <TJ-> Right, but it begs the question of why you'd have multiple PVs with the same UUID /online/ at the same time and not configure lvm.conf to ignore one of the devices
[11:54] <zomaar> Well
[11:55] <zomaar> That's nice if you can do that correctly
[11:55] <zomaar> But chrooted LVM also has a lvm.conf and can mess it up again
[11:55] <zomaar> I mean
[11:55] <zomaar> This dependency on a file is rather bad
[11:56] <zomaar> The first time I didn't know to do that.
[11:56] <TJ-> The whole point of a UUID is in it's name: Universally /Unique/ IDentifier
[11:56] <zomaar> A user will just use dd and get into a world of trouble
[11:57] <zomaar> Then when you discover how to shield you can still mess up
[11:57] <zomaar> In this case I messed up because
[11:57] <TJ-> so if it is no longer unique ... expect problems especially when you're doing premediated non-standard operations and configurations
[11:57] <zomaar> The live system had automatically activated the volume groups of course
[11:58] <zomaar> When I shielded the origin they were still activated
[11:58] <zomaar> And still used
[11:58] <zomaar> Etc.
[11:58] <zomaar> dd is actually supported operation by LVM
[11:59] <zomaar> clear
[11:59] <zomaar> by doing vgimportclone
[11:59] <zomaar> but you have to shield first correctly
[12:00] <zomaar> And do everything in the right order
[12:00] <zomaar> I mean they rewrote LVM to protect against this use case
[12:00] <zomaar> Recognising the trouble
[12:01] <TJ-> I do data forensics and recovery which involves a lot of cloning, sometimes with LVM, and (so far) I've managed not to have LVM get confused :)
[12:01] <zomaar> Also version 168 does not have protection against --split-cache and then re-attach the cache
[12:01] <zomaar> It will use the old metadata and corrupt your filesystem
[12:01] <zomaar> You must be better at it then I am ;-)
[12:01] <TJ-> Right, the way I deal with it is to change the cloned VGs' host value
[12:02] <zomaar> Right
[12:02] <TJ-> That's also how vgexport/vgimportclone manage it
[12:02] <zomaar> That makes sense
[12:02] <zomaar> Okay
[12:02] <zomaar> Hey I am just a new user in a certain sense
[12:02] <zomaar> I do not know how to do everything and have not had formal training or anything
[12:03] <zomaar> Zdenek of LVM said that --split-cache was just meant as a debugging feature, not for actual use
[12:03] <zomaar> But it was exposed that way and caused mayhem
[12:03] <zomaar> In version 171 they now protect against that
[12:04] <zomaar> And automatically clean the cache upon reconnect
[12:04] <zomaar> So that was one of my "oops, corrupted my filesystem" instances
[12:05] <zomaar> Maybe my concentration is not always perfect
[12:05] <zomaar> But I always manage to mess it up
[12:05] <zomaar> (I have bad short term memory these days)
[12:06] <marcoscosmos> I've always had shit short term
[12:06] <marcoscosmos> or more specifically
[12:06] <marcoscosmos> shit working memory
[12:06] <zomaar> Me it started with a hit to the head
[12:06] <zomaar> Back in 2014
[12:07] <marcoscosmos> Damn
[12:07] <marcoscosmos> I have ADHD and some kind of melatonin/adrenaline imbalance
[12:07] <marcoscosmos> I /can/ sleep
[12:07] <marcoscosmos> I've gotten better at that once I'm in bed
[12:08] <marcoscosmos> but staying awake is just so ridiculously easy
[12:08] <zomaar> :).
[12:08] <zomaar> Nice
[12:08] <zomaar> I am jealous a bit now
[12:08] <zomaar> Haha
[12:08] <zomaar> I always fall asleep when I don't want to.
[12:09] <zomaar> I still don't know if my 4.10 kernel will boot at this point or give me an initrd prompt or something
[12:09] <marcoscosmos> Well
[12:09] <marcoscosmos> I rarely get 8 hours
[12:10] <marcoscosmos> maybe once or twice a month
[12:10] <zomaar> Half of the time the kernel hangs on some USB issie
[12:10] <zomaar> issue
[12:10] <marcoscosmos> so I'm going to die quite a bit younger than you
[12:10] <marcoscosmos> :P
[12:10] <zomaar> My current boot took a few minutes because it was hanging on usb3
[12:10] <zomaar> Other times, it is hanging on some USB stick
[12:11] <zomaar> USB stick = entire kernel stalls
[12:11] <TJ-> zomaar: why does it hang? device initialising or some userspace service during boot?
[12:11] <zomaar> USB device reset or something
[12:11] <zomaar> This time it was:
[12:11] <zomaar> [ 8152.312303] hub 3-1.4:1.0: hub_ext_port_status failed (err = -110)
[12:12] <TJ-> zomaar: sounds like you need 4.13 kernel
[12:12] <zomaar> This is 4.8, 4.10 doesn't do that
[12:12] <zomaar> Maybe yes
[12:13] <zomaar> The other one is some Mushkin USB stick that has trouble with nVidia chipsets or something
[12:13] <zomaar> I am going to reboot to 4.10 and 4.4 now to see what happens ;-).
[12:13] <zomaar> Brb, maybe
[12:27] <zomaar> 4.10 does boot it just takes a while longer because udev has some issue with libdevmapper or something
[12:27] <zomaar> Which is due to the kernel
[12:27] <zomaar> With the libdevmapper of Yakkety I mean
[12:28] <zomaar> ;-)
[12:29] <zomaar> And no usb 3 problem
[12:29] <zomaar> I was just impatient once more
[12:30] <zomaar> So annoying but not as severe as I thought
[12:31] <zomaar> And in the end the only problem I had was that
[12:31] <zomaar> initramfs doesn't tell you there is a mount problem
[12:31] <zomaar> And regular mount has no issue mounting the device
[12:31] <zomaar> during a live session
[12:32] <zomaar> So how was I supposed to know it hangs because it feels you have to manually fsck it :-/.
[12:33] <zomaar> Even after manually mounting it it wouldn't continue :-/.
[12:33] <zomaar> Wasted 2 days on that
[12:34] <zomaar> You have to turn on "debug" and check /run/initramfs/file to know what is even going on
[12:37] <zomaar> But I couldn't ask how to find out because "Yakkety"
[12:37] <zomaar> ;-)
[12:37] <zomaar> :(
[12:45] <zomaar> I had edited lvm.conf while lvm was confused as to the backing PV
[12:45] <zomaar> After I had fixed the issue
[12:46] <zomaar> lvm.conf had turned into a binary blob ;-)
[12:46] <zomaar> Meaning the inode didn't agree with the data
[12:46] <zomaar> Probably because vi changes the inode while saving?
[12:47] <zomaar> It does
[12:49] <zomaar> This was actually caused by the cache being updated with the new inode and then connecting to the old PV though
[12:52] <zomaar> So on the "correct" PV the file hadn't been written yet, but its accompanying file system structure had
[12:54] <zomaar> Why do you write on a backup? I just wanted to chroot into it and check things but the chroot has a different lvm.conf
[13:01] <marcoscosmos> I'd suggest symlinking them but I'm not sure that that works across id changes or such?
[13:01] <zomaar> "I'm in for a world of pain"
[13:01] <zomaar> "But that's your normal state of being"
[13:01] <zomaar> "Oh, well it's not so bad then."
[13:02] <marcoscosmos> heh
[13:02] <zomaar> ;-)
[13:02] <zomaar> Ha, you're still here
[13:02] <zomaar> :)
[13:02] <marcoscosmos> yeh just
[13:02] <marcoscosmos> vegitating before bed
[13:02] <marcoscosmos> I probably should just go to bed..
[13:03] <zomaar> Serioulsy trouble ceases to have its worrisome quality when you realize trouble is the normal
[13:03] <marcoscosmos> indeed
[13:03] <marcoscosmos> I'm rarely worried so much as
[13:03] <marcoscosmos> engraged
[13:04] <zomaar> Or if danger is the normal, then you're like, hey, I like this
[13:04] <daftykins> engaged and enraged at the same time? :)
[13:04] <zomaar> You start to feel secure in feeling in danger
[13:05] <zomaar> I am furious too most of the time
[13:05] <zomaar> Sometimes with myself but just as often with the bad software
[13:05] <daftykins> you need to learn to let go of that second one, that'll always exist :)
[13:06] <zomaar> Let go of the bad software, indeed
[13:06] <zomaar> :)
[13:06] <zomaar> Haha
[13:06] <daftykins> i just ran into someone i got a job with at the same time, 10 years ago... i was straight out of Uni and he had spent many years working in IT support in finance circles
[13:07] <daftykins> he was _utterly_ useless, they got rid of him and kept me on... today he recognised me and in chatting, said he's still running Windows XP
[13:07] <daftykins> >_<
[13:08] <zomaar> Wait what so when you got the job he had a different background?
[13:08] <daftykins> no still IT support, which the job we got was, just they thought he was meant to be competent from having done it for so many years
[13:08] <zomaar> Okay
[13:08] <daftykins> guy couldn't even install an OS properly
[13:09] <daftykins> "when we get servers they just come with discs to set them up"
[13:09] <daftykins> ugh :P
[13:09] <zomaar> Still work is a luxury you know
[13:09] <zomaar> I mean being able to work somewhere where you learn stuff
[13:10] <zomaar> Or where you are surrounded by knowledgeable people
[13:11] <daftykins> if you're not on a tight leash and have freedom to impelement what you choose, you can learn plenty by yourself
[13:11] <zomaar> Not so easy
[13:12] <zomaar> Because
[13:12] <zomaar> Tiny things
[13:12] <zomaar> That a colleage could tell you
[13:12] <zomaar> May take you a year to find out because it doesn't seem important enough to research at that moment
[13:13] <zomaar> And this tiny bit of information can cause enormous headaches when you need the info at a crucial moment
[13:13] <zomaar> Stuff that is obvious to someone but it's not in the documentation
[13:14] <zomaar> Stuff like enter, ~, .
[13:15] <zomaar> Or g/G
[13:15] <daftykins> o0
[13:15] <zomaar> Or :w !sudo tee %
[13:16] <zomaar> There is so much stuff that makes life a lot easier
[13:16] <zomaar> But it's more common knowledge than stuff you hunt for
[13:16] <zomaar> It's this common knowledge that gets more easily shared between people
[13:17] <zomaar> What about dpkg-repack
[13:17] <zomaar> What about apt-file
[13:17] <zomaar> If you use aptitude you can find out
[13:17] <zomaar> Not if you just use apt or apt-get
[13:17] <zomaar> I once spent a few hours reading through the package lists of Debian 7
[13:17] <zomaar> I learned a lot
[13:18] <lordievader> `man apt-file` works fine here.
[13:18] <zomaar> Because aptitude
[13:18] <zomaar> That's great Lordievader
[13:19] <zomaar> I am happy for you
[13:19] <lordievader> I'm not really sure what you are arguing about, it seems to me that the things you mention are easily findable with a bit of Googleing (but I may be missing the point).
[13:20] <daftykins> i'm not hugely following either (:
[13:20] <zomaar> But anyway daftykins, that's the reason why I say having colleagues helps ;-).
[13:20] <daftykins> i could understand in the context of someone new to Linux starting a job with it, perhaps... otherwise, pass
[13:21] <zomaar> So lordievader tell me how to find out about dpkg-repack, apt-file, and apt-offline with one google query
[13:21] <zomaar> Without knowing the names of these tools beforehand
[13:22] <zomaar> Or that the feature even exists, you might say
[13:22] <lordievader> Well, usually you have a job that needs doing. You google for that. If it is the right tool for the job someone will mention it.
[13:23] <zomaar> So what if you never need to dpkg-repack because apt download also handles the task 99% of cases so you never feel the need to google for it?
[13:24] <lordievader> Why do you need to know about some program B if program A does everything you need done?
[13:25] <lordievader> Or let me put it differently. apt-get and aptitude do largely the same thing. I use apt-get, do I need to know what aptitude does, what kind of flags it accept, etc?
[13:25] <lordievader> I'd argue it is a waste of time since I don't use aptitude and apt-get does the stuff I need it to do.
[13:25] <lordievader> Hmm... that is not very sportive.
[13:28] <daftykins> i use apt now :> 4 fewer characters to type!
[13:29] <lordievader> Same here. And it has progress bars 😁
[13:44] <zomaar> Sorry my system froze or at least the keyboard
[13:44] <zomaar> And now in 4.4.0 every time I run xrandr it kills my X session
[13:44] <zomaar> I am improving things
[13:45] <daftykins> sounds like a fragile stack of twigs
[13:45] <zomaar> I must be the greatest system administrator in the world.
[13:45] <zomaar> I achieve things no one has ever dreamed of
[13:45] <zomaar> Haha
[13:45] <zomaar> Next up I will blow at my computer and the pentagon will explode
[13:46] <zomaar> By accident
[13:46] <zomaar> Not sure how I did that
[13:46] <zomaar> There is some power in that breath!
[13:47] <zomaar> I am actually afraid of blowing at my monitor now
[13:47] <zomaar> Let's not unnecessarily risk things
[13:49] <zomaar> But yeah Lordievader if you don't have internet access once upon the time and this is the exact moment you need dpkg-repack you are screwed
[13:49] <marcoscosmos> so wait
[13:49] <marcoscosmos> is unity fully discontinued?
[13:49] <marcoscosmos> like
[13:49] <zomaar> Yes
[13:49] <zomaar> I think so
[13:49] <marcoscosmos> after 16 goes after of support, no more unity?
[13:49] <marcoscosmos> huh.
[13:49] <zomaar> Basically unless someone maintains it
[13:49] <marcoscosmos> Must have been really unpopular
[13:50] <zomaar> You can still install it for the time being I think
[13:50] <daftykins> i thought someone forked it already
[13:51] <zomaar> Yeah but question is whether it will be available and how well
[13:52] <zomaar> Depending on google for your every solution is not the greatest either
[13:53] <daftykins> i don't use desktop Linux so :)
[13:54] <zomaar> And what if half of that time you could have used dpkg-repack instead of apt download and it would have been a better solution, but you were not actively in need of it because the other solution also worked?
[13:54] <zomaar> So you were never compelled to seek out the alternative?
[13:54] <zomaar> Or, since you can close Konsole windows, you never needed enter, ~, . ?
[13:55] <zomaar> It would just have saved a lot of time if you knew how?
[13:55] <marcoscosmos> yeh so apparently gnome doesn't support external window managers so
[13:55] <marcoscosmos> since unity is out
[13:56] <marcoscosmos> mate was supposed to support it but glitched the fuck out
[13:56] <marcoscosmos> I'm gunna try KDE and LXDE
[13:56] <marcoscosmos> because KDE is pretty
[13:56] <marcoscosmos> and LXDE is light so if kde fails, LDXE should give me the bare minimum with little fuss
[13:57] <daftykins> marcoscosmos: watch the language in the 'buntu channels
[13:58] <marcoscosmos> oh, sorry!
[13:59] <zomaar> They've moved the packages of Yakkety away now which is cute because it can still download packages that haven't changed from Yakkety to Aardvark :p
[14:01] <marcoscosmos> Must have been really unpopular
[14:01] <zomaar> What, those packages?
[14:01] <zomaar> Or the move
[14:01] <daftykins> you're pointing one release to another release's packages? are you insane?
[14:02] <zomaar> Well the easy answer is yes I am
[14:02] <zomaar> Then I don't have to answer why
[14:02] <zomaar> :)
[14:02] <marcoscosmos> well I've selectively pointed 1-2 packages in isolation to another release with no consequeces, daftykins
[14:02] <zomaar> History tells that the Prince of Yi (or something) in China pretended to be insane
[14:03] <daftykins> marcoscosmos: i didn't mean you
[14:03] <zomaar> So that he didn't have to fulfill any obligations on the court of his monarch (emperor)
[14:03] <daftykins> zomaar: hrmm then you have no idea what you're doing, enjoy
[14:03] <zomaar> Because the emperor was a tyrant
[14:04] <marcoscosmos> but it's kind of a niche scenario where I can garauntee no other packages in the active release even know about those two packages existing in the short term
[14:04] <zomaar> By claiming insanity he was left alone
[14:04] <marcoscosmos> an if they ever did then I wouldn't need to be doing the pinning in the first place
[14:04] <marcoscosmos> and*
[14:04] <marcoscosmos> so it'd be fine :P
[14:05] <zomaar> See it works :)
[14:05] <zomaar> I don't have to answer why
[14:07] <zomaar> What has been unpopular marcoscosmos?
[14:07] <marcoscosmos> oh no your thing is nuts
[14:07] <marcoscosmos> you're mainly doing it because your speed sucks by the sounds anyway
[14:07] <marcoscosmos> unity, zomaar
[14:08] <zomaar> Maybe sortof
[14:08] <zomaar> Don't want to go into why exactly
[14:08] <zomaar> But it's true that I cannot just download images
[14:09] <marcoscosmos> Well I mean you're selecting older packages where you want newer ones by the sounds s
[14:09] <marcoscosmos> so*
[14:09] <marcoscosmos> in certain package
[14:09] <marcoscosmos> packages*
[14:09] <zomaar> Unity wasn't unpopular with people I think
[14:10] <marcoscosmos> then why discontinue it?
[14:10] <zomaar> But it also wasn't the success and Canonical decided that more money was in cloud
[14:10] <marcoscosmos> usually stuff would fork officially instead
[14:10] <zomaar> Because apparently Gnome 3 was to a point that it was okayish
[14:10] <marcoscosmos> Ah
[14:10] <zomaar> And Unity's goal was not really fully reached
[14:11] <zomaar> Phone convergence didn't really work out well
[14:11] <marcoscosmos> yeah Iguess now they're doing that thing where the donators select what to fund
[14:11] <zomaar> And Canonical made great headway into the container business
[14:11] <marcoscosmos> really?
[14:12] <zomaar> Well they are huge in the cloud
[14:12] <zomaar> It brings in $$
[14:12] <zomaar> Ubuntu is now a specialized container ecosystem basically
[14:13] <zomaar> With the best container support perhaps of any distribution
[14:13] <zomaar> Even LXD may be a Canonical creation
[14:14] <zomaar> I think Canonical just collected the gains and jumped out
[14:14] <zomaar> In Dutch we say "choosing eggs for your money"
[14:15] <zomaar> Ie. chances are you won't get something better, and instead of risking it all you quickly purchase something that will be good enough and exit the scene
[14:16] <zomaar> So Canonical left the Desktop business and focuses now on the container business
[14:16] <zomaar> A bit crudely said
[14:16] <zomaar> Perhaps
[14:18] <zomaar> Those game shows where you can collect the cash or take a shot on a higher prize
[14:18] <zomaar> When you collect the cash and leave, that is called "eieren voor je geld kiezen"
[14:18] <zomaar> (eggs for your money)
[14:19] <zomaar> You can look at Canonical's cloud support offerings etc.
[14:20] <marcoscosmos> ah
[14:21] <zomaar> So instead of making their own Desktop Environment, they only make their own skin for Gnome
[14:21] <zomaar> Lesser task
[14:21] <zomaar> Still looks the same in colours
[14:21] <marcoscosmos> mmm it probably works better anywau
[14:22] <marcoscosmos> anyway off, night!
[14:22] <zomaar> If someone puts a desktop on a server they won't care so much that Gnome 3 is just a kiosk
[14:22] <zomaar> Okay
[14:23] <marcoscosmos> kiosk?
[14:23] <zomaar> Well Gnome 3 is a bit of a Kiosk OS compared to KDE
[14:23] <zomaar> But Unity was also that; netbooks
[14:23] <zomaar> Unity was great for small resolutions because that's how it was developed
[14:24] <zomaar> Ie. you have 1024x600 and put Unity on it
[14:24] <zomaar> That's what it was original called
[14:24] <zomaar> Netbook something
[14:25] <zomaar> On a netbook you don't want excessive features because you don't even have a mouse
[14:25] <zomaar> The environment needs to be small and workable
[14:25] <zomaar> No captions, just buttons, and the panel to the left
[14:26] <zomaar> Horizontal panel eats up too much of that 600 pixels
[14:26] <zomaar> That's why Unity has the panel on the left basically
[14:30] <zomaar> Unity is also great for concentration
[14:30] <zomaar> Ie. I had Ubuntu 14.04 or 12.04 and it had no support for my monitor
[14:31] <zomaar> So the resolution was 1024x768 or even 800x600 and everything was huge
[14:31] <zomaar> And it was a bliss
[14:31] <zomaar> Nothing else that you can do but code
[14:32] <zomaar> Unity also looks pleasing to big soft round orange shapes
[14:33] <marcoscosmos>  haha I see
[14:33] <marcoscosmos> I dislike orange
[14:33] <marcoscosmos> but it goes great with purple
[14:33] <zomaar> Orange is the new
[14:33] <marcoscosmos> haha
[14:33] <marcoscosmos> anyway, bye
[14:33] <zomaar> Bye
[16:25] <nicomachus> tomreyn: 10:23|     altaiir| nicomachus: Sooooorry, I mistake my keys that wooorks thanks
[16:25] <nicomachus> 10:24|     altaiir| it's pg up pg down less maj
[16:26] <nicomachus> took a few tries... definitely not english as a first language.
[16:26] <tomreyn> :)
[17:00] <nacc> zomaar: offtopic for the support channel
[17:00] <nacc> i can't say enough how much i disagree with you
[17:00] <nicomachus> lol
[17:00] <nacc> and you really should not suggest that in the official support channel
[17:04] <zomaar> You have no regard for practical concerns
[17:05] <nicomachus> we have no regard for bad/non-solutions
[17:05] <zomaar> And if someone is in prison they also cannot upgrade their server
[17:05] <nicomachus> and no regard for useless hypotheticals
[17:05] <zomaar> So you are saying doing impossible things is a solution?
[17:05] <nacc> zomaar: lol
[17:05] <nacc> if they are in prison
[17:05] <nacc> and have ssh access to their remote server
[17:05] <nacc> which they have not had for say 9 months
[17:05] <nicomachus> upgrade your installation when it's EOL. if you can't, then install an LTS release.
[17:05] <nacc> so their release could go eol
[17:05] <nacc> then they didn't care about their computer in that time
[17:06] <nacc> BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT USE IT
[17:06] <zomaar> How is that not caring?
[17:06] <nacc> zomaar: i would appreciate it if you would avoid ad homenim responses
[17:06] <zomaar> You are telling me I should not be in the support channel
[17:07] <zomaar> I would appreciate if you would not do that
[17:08] <nicomachus> I think nacc has some authority on that
[17:08] <zomaar> And also their server kept running and kept serving their webpages
[17:08] <zomaar> Now what?
[17:09] <nacc> zomaar: i never said that
[17:09] <nacc> zomaar: i said don't suggest that in the support channel
[17:09] <nacc> zomaar: and possibly got hacked in the meanwhile
[17:10] <nacc> and is now vulnerable to any number of CVEs
[17:10] <zomaar> zomaar: if you're suggesting it's better to run an EOL release than to upgrade, i'm sorry, you should't be helping here
[17:11] <zomaar> Also you are doing really a straw-man argument because this user did want to upgrade
[17:11] <zomaar> So I never suggested he stay on Yakkety
[17:11] <nacc> what straw-man? you had literally just said 'not everyone is in the position to upgrade'
[17:12] <zomaar> Because any help I gave was in the context of this person
[17:12] <nacc> it's in the public channel
[17:12] <nacc> it's in the context of the ubuntu support channel
[17:13] <zomaar> And suggesting someone do a dist upgrade within his release is the first step to getting ahead with the upgrade as well
[17:14] <zomaar> So dist-upgrade should be the first thing you do regardless of whether this person wants to move on or not
[17:14] <zomaar> Once that's done, you can discuss how it's done
[17:14] <zomaar> Otherwise the support question becomes too big in one go
[17:15] <nacc> you've lost me now
[17:15] <nacc> i don't think anyone said anything against making a eol release current before do-release-upgrade
[17:15] <nacc> that is in fact the official community guidance
[17:17] <zomaar> You advizes against it if that person was not planning to do-release-upgrade
[17:17] <zomaar> advized*
[17:17] <zomaar> But that just complicates matters
[17:17] <nacc> if they are not planning on d-r-u, they are not supported, and they are offtopic for the support channel!
[17:18] <zomaar> Then you are leaving them more vulnerable than if they would be if they did dist-upgrade
[17:18] <nacc> ...
[17:18] <zomaar> Also they have to do the step anyway and now became closer to choosing do-release-upgrade
[17:18] <nacc> you are giving them false security by saying they are somehow current
[17:19] <zomaar> No it's the right direction anyway
[17:19] <nacc> the right direction for an EOL release is !eolupgrade
[17:19] <nacc> not, get current then make a decision about whether to upgrade or not
[17:19] <zomaar> That's how life works nacc
[17:19] <zomaar> Sometimes we have to take things in small steps
[17:19] <nacc> lol
[17:20] <zomaar> Not trying to be insolent here
[17:20] <zomaar> But stuff becomes easier if you can first just do the obvious
[17:20] <nacc> the obvious is follow the eolupgrade page!
[17:20] <zomaar> Get that done, and then move on
[17:20] <nacc> which happens to involve a dist-upgrade using old-releases
[17:20] <nacc> and then an immediate d-r-u
[17:21] <zomaar> Yes well in this case d-r-u didn't work
[17:21] <zomaar> Or something in any case
[17:21] <nacc> because they were *two* releases out of date
[17:21] <nacc> so they should just reinstall, tbh
[17:21] <zomaar> Maybe I was wrong about it
[17:21] <nacc> again, as said
[17:21] <nacc> or do two eol upgrades
[17:22] <zomaar> There is still no point in not making them do dist-upgrade because after that you can push them on if you want and if they want
[17:22] <nacc> zomaar: again, i don't think anyone said not to dist-upgrade
[17:23] <nacc> zomaar: the point was, if they are going to stay on zesty, their system is unsupported, vulnerable and should be disabled anyways
[17:23] <nacc> zomaar: and they should have installed an LTS in the first place if they weren't going to pay ttention to support timelines
[17:23] <zomaar> That's mustard after the meal ;-)
[17:23] <nacc> no, it's education.
[17:24] <zomaar> Chastising people doesn't help
[17:24] <nacc> did the user you were helping understand *why* they were in the position they were in?
[17:24] <zomaar> Not now in any case
[17:24] <zomaar> Well yes apparently they hadn't been paying attention and wanted to fix that now asap
[17:24] <nacc> right
[17:24] <nacc> did you tell them what to pay attentino to?
[17:25] <nacc> or what the difference between lts and non-lts is?
[17:25] <nacc> or did you put them in the position to have to do this exactly again in 6 onths
[17:25] <zomaar> It's funny
[17:26] <zomaar> With the programmer vs software-engineer you said that the programmer doesn't think ahead ;-).
[17:26] <zomaar> :)
[17:26] <zomaar> I was solving the problem first, discuss later
[17:26] <zomaar> I can't be responsible for everyone's mindsets
[17:26] <nacc> I don't believe I said the programmer does *not* think ahead
[17:27] <zomaar> Well in any case once this person is on Aardvark he has a supported do-release-upgrade, that's all I cared about.
[17:27] <zomaar> If the system is then dysfynctional in some way he can always reinstall
[17:27] <zomaar> He prefered upgrading in-place
[17:28] <zomaar> He thought Aardvark had been pulled, etc
[17:39] <zomaar> Btw I don't see how waiting till support ends before you upgrade is in any way counter to the intent of the system
[17:41] <zomaar> E.g. supposing apt would give an error message indicating end of support that would only be a very normal thing to have
[17:41] <zomaar> and if it also included instructions on how to upgrade, that would only be very normal as well
[17:42] <nacc> apt doesn't knwo what support is
[17:42] <nacc> you upgrade *before* support ends
[17:42] <zomaar> Just because someone waits one week, supposedly, before upgrading, doesn't immediately disqualify them from being 'good administrators' or anything
[17:42] <nacc> not after
[17:42] <zomaar> I know
[17:42] <nacc> uh, yeah it does
[17:43] <zomaar> Well yeah again but this is real life
[17:43] <zomaar> This is the normal
[17:43] <zomaar> Any business will encounter that
[17:43] <nacc> maybe your normal
[17:43] <zomaar> No everyone's normal
[17:43] <zomaar> This is how users are
[17:43] <nacc> zomaar: please don't tell me what my normal is
[17:43] <nacc> or assume you know everything about users
[17:43] <zomaar> I said the normal of all other businesses out there mostly.
[17:44] <nacc> lol
[17:44] <nacc> 'all', 'mostly'
[17:44] <zomaar> Please don't feel so personally addressed if I have already qualified my statement
[17:44] <zomaar> Yes, that's also very normal language.
[17:45] <nacc> qualified it to mean nothing
[17:45] <nacc> all X do Y mostly
[17:45] <nacc> doesn't mean much
[17:45] <nacc> and unless you've talked to all businesses out there ...
[17:45] <zomaar> You may disagree with ordinary language all you want
[17:46] <zomaar> You may also disagree with what Microsoft, Apple etc. are facing
[17:46] <zomaar> I can guarantee you it's the same
[17:46] <nacc> that's nice
[17:46] <nacc> not sure what your guarantee is worth it in this case
[17:46] <nacc> and you've used up quite a bit of my morning now
[17:46] <nacc> so have a nice day
[17:46] <zomaar> I am not sure what you are arguing
[17:47] <zomaar> Good day
[19:29] <Bashing-om> Here we go again .. and it's Friday support :)
[20:13] <nicomachus> Bashing-om: sure is... been kinda awful all day
[20:14] <Bashing-om> nicomachus: Well, still more intertaining to watch irc than commercial TV :P
[23:27] <nacc> tomreyn: gl :)
[23:27] <tomreyn> :) thanks, and good night to you!
[23:27] <nacc> tomreyn: oh i'm awake for a while
[23:27] <nacc> just worried for your sanity now :)
[23:28] <tomreyn> oh :)
[23:28] <tomreyn> i should probbaly suggest to install inxi, then run inxi -adslfgbnhfasjlhbgösjwleg | pastebinit
[23:29] <nacc> loll
[23:29] <nacc> goodness, ENOPARSE on that last one
[23:30] <TJ-> tomreyn: I'd just ask the user to send me an ISO image of the entire system :p
[23:30] <nacc> TJ-: i thought you were going to sleep :-P
[23:31] <daftykins> he always says that ;)
[23:31] <Sveta> morning
[23:32]  * TJ- is sleep hacking
[23:32] <TJ-> actually, I'm trying to shoo the huskies out for the night into their beds but they're playing hide'n'seek :)
[23:33] <daftykins> :D
[23:33] <Sveta> how many huskies have you got, TJ-?
[23:34] <TJ-> only 2 ... for now, plus a collie
[23:34] <Sveta> ok
[23:35] <TJ-> while 1 heads towards the door the other sneaks off :)
[23:37] <tomreyn> oh TJ was going to sleep, i knew someone was going to!
[23:37] <tomreyn> ISO image is a good idea, too, i'll make a note.
[23:38] <TJ-> g'night... 1st time before midnight in a week - doing far too much clubbing :p
[23:40] <tomreyn> #ubuntu clubbing
[23:40] <tomreyn> now i'm getting worried for my sanity, too
[23:40] <Sveta> is https://askubuntu.com/questions/293028/how-can-i-install-ubuntu-encrypted-with-luks-with-dual-boot still relevant?
[23:41] <Sveta> I'm not sure whether the installer handles encrypted dual boot installs out of the box, "Thaelim" seems to want to do this
[23:41] <daftykins> this isn't a support channel
[23:41] <Sveta> I know. I'm helping someone and I'm a bit stuck :P
[23:41] <Sveta> if there's another place where people-who-are-helping coordinate effort, please let me know.
[23:42] <daftykins> best guy for encrypted setup questions just went to bed
[23:44] <tomreyn> i guess i would just install $otheros, then make sure there is unpartitioned space, then install ubuntu with encryption + lvm
[23:47] <daftykins> the recent CPU design flaws point to none of it being hugely worthwhile anyway, in a way :)
[23:47] <tomreyn> ME is not a design flaw
[23:48] <tomreyn> and, if you trust intel's PR, meltdown and spectre are neither :P
[23:48] <daftykins> unsure why you're trying to use disinformation as a counter
[23:54] <tomreyn> daftykins: disinformation?
[23:55] <daftykins> yeah intel defending themselves
[23:55] <daftykins> it was a 'bug' they denied meltdown/spectre were though, not design flaws iirc
[23:56] <tomreyn> do you mean they are not defending themselves, or that i should not insinuate that they do, or do you mean they are defending themsellves and that i said they do not?
[23:57] <tomreyn> i just can't follow and would like to understand what you mean.
[23:57] <tomreyn> i exxagerated, sarcastically, but did not mean to spread disinfo.
[23:58] <daftykins> ugh. them defending their chips was kinda disinformation, in a way
[23:59] <tomreyn> oh, okay. i was thinking you suggested i was disinforming.