[04:46] <mouse_>  download  some thing on firefox browser,   its  looks complete ,but when i try to find the file couldnt find it , who can help me ?
[04:50] <nacc> mouse_: you want #ubuntu i guess, or really #firefox
[04:52] <mouse_> @nacc  actually i had download  One file  "GNS3 IOS.zip"   on firefox .  size 271 MB
[04:52] <nacc> mouse_: still not for this channel
[04:52] <mouse_>    but i couldn't find this file in my system
[04:52] <mouse_> ok .... sorry
[05:23] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[05:23] <lotuspsychje> !wayland
[05:23] <lotuspsychje> 77mb bionic updates
[05:27] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: :) WB .
[05:28] <lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om
[07:03] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:03] <lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
[07:04] <lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje
[07:04] <lordievader> How are you doing?
[07:04] <lotuspsychje> all fine here lordievader
[07:04] <lotuspsychje> rainy outside
[07:05] <Bashing-om> g nite all - pick up the fight on the morrow \o
[07:05] <lordievader> It is dry here, for a change.
[07:32] <ducasse> good morning, all
[07:33] <lotuspsychje> hey hey ducasse
[07:33] <lordievader> Hey ducasse
[07:33] <lordievader> How are you doing?
[07:33] <ducasse> morning, lordievader + lotuspsychje - how are you?
[07:33] <ducasse> all good here, thanks :)
[07:33] <lordievader> Doing good here 😁
[07:34] <lotuspsychje> all good, and you ducasse
[07:37] <ducasse> looks cold out, and been snowing all night
[07:38] <jink> Morning. ^__^
[07:41] <lotuspsychje> hi jink
[07:41] <ducasse> \o jink
[07:42] <jink> I need to reinstall my VPS, since it's 16.10 and I can't do-release-upgrade anymore.  I need to somehow backup my config and data (and try to not forget anything).
[07:44] <jink> I should probably go with LTS, next time. :P
[07:45] <ducasse> can't you use old-releases to do an in-place upgrade?
[07:52] <jink> I don't know.  Can I?
[07:54] <jink> ducasse: URL?  Or do you want to talk me through it? :P
[07:57] <jink> Thanks, I think I got it.
[07:57] <jink> (I should probably still make a backup, but whatever #yolo)
[08:04] <lordievader> !eolupgrade
[08:04] <lordievader> jink: ^
[08:04] <jink> Yeah, that's the one I'm reading now. :D
[08:06] <ducasse> i would probably still upgrade, but if you don't use any ppas it should be painless
[08:06] <ducasse> not upgrade, backup - sorry
[08:06] <jink> !ppa
[08:07] <jink> keybase and nodesource.
[08:07] <jink> But those shouldn't interfere too much.
[08:10] <jink> Do I need to do that kernel step?  I have a kernel, right?  Which one should I pick?
[08:12] <ducasse> as long as linux-image-generic is installed you should be fine
[08:12] <jink> It is. :)
[08:13] <jink> And headers, too.
[08:13] <jink> "An upgrade from 'yakkety' to 'artful' is not supported with this tool." :/
[08:14] <ducasse> ok, that will pull in the newer kernel packages, then
[08:14] <ducasse> ah, you would need to go via zesty, probably
[08:15] <jink> Can you guess my next question? :D
[08:16] <ducasse> not sure if you can convince the upgrader to do that, or if you would need to do a manual upgrade
[08:17] <ducasse> i've gone from 14.10 to 16.04 via all the intermediate steps, and back then the upgrader just did it
[08:18] <jink> I'm not even sure what do-release-upgrade does that makes it work.  Can I just sed -i -e 's/yakkety/zesty/g' sources.list and then upgrade?
[08:22] <ducasse> you _can_ - in essence that is what the upgrader does. remember to comment out your ppas while upgrading and editing them for the newer release later
[08:22] <jink> Great stuff.  I'll give that a go.
[08:23] <ducasse> i'm not even sure you need to go via zesty when you do it manually, or if you could jump straight to artful
[08:23] <jink> :D
[08:23] <jink> Flip a coin? :D
[08:24] <jink> Through old-releases, or just regular sources?
[08:26] <ducasse> artful is in the regular sources
[08:26] <jink> Yes.  So, I'll just s/yakkety/artful/g on the regular sources, and remove the old-releases sources.
[08:27] <ducasse> this isn't the recommended way to do it, so backup first :)
[08:27] <jink> :P
[08:29] <jink> I saved /etc /home /root /var/www /var/lib/apache2 /var/lib/mysql* /var/mail  Anything else? :D
[08:30] <ducasse> sounds good to me :)
[08:34] <jink> 621 upgraded, 67 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
[08:34] <jink> Errrrrrrrhm, here goes nothing, I guess.
[08:35] <ducasse> :)
[08:38] <jink> And updating my phone at the same time.
[08:59] <jink> I'll probably need to reboot, right?
[09:08] <jink> So far, so good.  Now my postfix won't start.
[09:08] <jink> The rest seems to've worked, though.
[09:08] <jink> (Y)
[09:08] <jink> Much obliged, ducasse.
[09:16] <ducasse> np, glad it went ok. any errors from postfix?
[09:20] <jink> Not that I can tell.
[09:20] <jink> systemctl lists it as "active (exited)"  and netstat -plntW doesn't show it listening.
[09:23] <ducasse> if it fails to start there should be something in the logs, try 'journalctl -xe'
[09:23] <jink> That just claims it's up. :/
[09:24] <jink> I'm currently looking at https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=877992 but I just started reading, so I'm not sure it applies.
[09:26] <jink> systemctl enable postfix@-  seems to've worked.  Not sure what happened there.
[09:30] <ducasse> goodie, then :)
[09:34] <jink> I knew that postfix had trouble starting on boot.  Perhaps because it tries to bind before the interfaces are available, but a normal start after boot usually took care of that.
[09:34] <jink> Anyway, thanks a bunch.  Coffee and some actual work. :')
[09:38] <ducasse> np, have fun :)
[12:15] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[12:15] <ducasse> morning, BluesKaj
[12:15] <daftykins> morning gents \o
[12:16]  * daftykins is back from the vet
[12:16] <BluesKaj> Hey ducasse,daftykins
[12:16] <ducasse> hi, daftykins - how did the vet visit go?
[12:17] <daftykins> turns out i'm human and have to go to a normal doctor! ;)
[12:17] <daftykins> nah not too bad, got a stronger form of treatment for on her neck like the usual flea prevention stuff - so hopefully that does the trick
[12:18] <daftykins> sadly it won't help me with all the regular cleaning i'll still have to do in the meantime!
[12:18] <ducasse> hehe, that will keep you busy, i'm sure :)
[12:19] <daftykins> ;_;
[12:20] <daftykins> i'm glad i have mostly wooden or tiled floors rather than carpet, i'm sure it'd be much worse
[12:21] <ducasse> i'm sure it would. never had this problem, tbh.
[12:23] <daftykins> no, i was an idiot and didn't apply the prevention stuff regularly enough, so here i am - but oh well, lesson learned
[12:24] <daftykins> when you have no problems it's all too easy to think it's for nothing, but now i know first hand what it's to stop :D
[12:24] <ducasse> never used that, guess i'm just lucky :)
[12:25] <daftykins> really? do you do no regular treatments then?
[12:25] <jink> We hardly ever treat our cats.
[12:26] <ducasse> never have
[12:26] <jink> Out of 4, only 1 goes outside, about every day.
[12:26] <daftykins> https://www.advocate-spot-on.com/ this is what i tend to have
[12:27] <jink> We use Stronghold.
[12:32] <ducasse> here goes, luna has discovered the birds feeding outside :)
[12:32] <daftykins> :D
[12:41] <daftykins> have you folks had this Scarecrow user in today asking about NFS trouble on a 17.10 digitalocean droplet? (VPS)
[12:41] <daftykins> pauljw: \o
[12:41] <pauljw> hi daftykins :D
[12:42] <pauljw> hi everyone
[12:43] <ducasse> daftykins: oh, he's on a vps - he didn't mention that
[12:43] <ducasse> hi pauljw
[12:43] <daftykins> they never do :)
[12:43] <pauljw> hi ducasse
[12:43] <daftykins> never used NFS so i'm leaving that one alone, presumably someone is actively assisting
[12:44] <ducasse> i tried, but have no more suggestions. nfs has always just worked™ for me
[12:45] <daftykins> 12:35 < Scarecrow> We were advised by digital ocean to upgrade due to the recent Spectre / Meltdown
[12:45] <daftykins>                    issues that have arisen
[12:45] <daftykins> talk about taking a user wide mailing the wrong way, they said ensure you're on a current kernel, not upgrade release :>
[13:05] <pauljw> i was on the forums over at DO the other night just looking around and man, there are a bunch that have a very big learning curve ahead of them.
[13:09] <ducasse> we've got this character in #u that first turned up maybe 4-5 weeks back, completely new to linux and asking really newbie questions, and he's already started piping in with advice to people. most of it is dead wrong, of course :)
[13:10] <TJ-> That's be me :D
[13:11] <pauljw> :)
[13:11] <ducasse> hehe, not exactly ;)
[13:18] <BluesKaj> a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing
[13:19] <daftykins> i think that's how i was snared, turned up to ask something more complex - got no answer, started helping with the basics
[13:20] <ducasse> this guy still needs help with the basics, though
[13:21] <daftykins> :D
[13:53] <BluesKaj> hi pauljw , what's DO ?
[13:53] <daftykins> digitalocean
[13:53] <BluesKaj> ok
[14:12] <pauljw> hi BluesKaj, sorry, didn't see your question...
[14:12] <BluesKaj> np pauljw :-0
[14:13] <BluesKaj> oops :-)
[14:13] <pauljw> :)
[14:14] <BluesKaj> li took a look a t digital ocean a while back, but realized it was more than i needed
[14:15] <pauljw> probably is for me too, but i felt i needed the experience of setting up my own vpn server.  not that i'm any smarter by doing so, just proved i can follow instructions. :D
[14:16] <jink> https://www.transip.nl/vps/   https://www.transip.nl/vps/pro/
[14:16] <jink> (Y)
[14:18] <pauljw> :)
[14:20] <daftykins> jink: more expensive and doesn't do it any better
[14:21] <jink> Can't judge that.  I don't have DO. :D
[14:39] <pauljw> bbl...
[16:22] <TJ-> I've put together shell script to automate cleaning up out-of-space issues in /boot/ - it first detects and removes the (large) initrd.img files to create space before calling autoremove.  http://iam.tj/projects/ubuntu/apt-autoremove-old-kernels
[16:25] <nacc> and skype as a snap reelases
[16:25] <nacc> https://insights.ubuntu.com/2018/02/01/skype-now-available-as-a-snap-for-linux-users/
[16:26] <daftykins> any ideas if it's newer than the ancient .deb they offer for download?
[16:27] <kostkon> both are at 8.14.0.10
[16:29] <daftykins> ah sounds like they did eventually move on... in fact come to think of it i remember a desktop Linux using friend complaining about the silly emoticons :D
[16:32] <nacc> daftykins: i haven't llooked at it all :)
[16:40] <daftykins> is that of a tinfoil hat nature? :)
[16:41] <nacc> daftykins: i don't use skype :)
[16:42] <daftykins> yeah i got that part
[16:43] <TJ-> nacc believes in more extreme torture... PHP unit tests :p
[16:43] <nacc> also that
[16:51] <daftykins> so, this maintenance task that runs to periodically update snaps... what does it do when they're in use?
[16:53] <nacc> it's a squashfs mount
[16:53] <nacc> so the old mount is still held open, but unmounted
[16:53] <nacc> so a new exec will use the new snap, i think
[16:56] <daftykins> but if it's a messaging utility, such as Skype, that remains open?
[16:56] <nacc> daftykins: i'm honestly not sure
[16:57] <daftykins> totally unrelated but i have this client who is pretty scatter-brained, so leaves email they intend to reply to open - usually about 20 all along the taskbar xD this prevents their office suite ever updating since it thinks it's in use
[17:06] <lotuspsychje> good evening to all
[17:08] <daftykins> \o
[17:31] <lotuspsychje> hi LtWorf
[17:35] <pauljw> hey lotuspsychje :)
[17:36] <lotuspsychje> hey pauljw
[17:36] <lotuspsychje> how are you today
[17:36] <pauljw> good thanks, you?
[17:36] <lotuspsychje> great here
[17:36] <pauljw> :)
[17:38] <ducasse> evening, lotuspsychje - finished at work?
[17:38] <lotuspsychje> hey ducasse yeah
[17:38] <lotuspsychje> you had a good day ducasse
[17:39] <ducasse> all good here :)
[18:05] <immu> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/02/install-skype-linux-ubuntu
[18:05] <immu> daftykins,  ducasse hi all
[18:09] <daftykins> \o
[18:09] <daftykins> what's new?
[18:11] <immu> installed skype as a snap and its awesome
[18:11] <daftykins> still not a fan of the concept of snaps myself :)
[18:13] <immu> snaps and flatpack are leading the way
[18:13] <immu> but i am for snaps
[18:19] <TJ-> leading the way into the past, probably
[18:19] <nacc> daftykins: tbh, (and imo only), i think snaps/flatpack are the only way for linux on the desktop to exist
[18:19] <nacc> s/exist/thrive/
[18:20] <daftykins> then it's doomed :)
[18:20] <nacc> heh
[18:20] <daftykins> flatpack? IKEA? :D
[18:25] <TJ-> the whole bundling app+libs concept, from a security POV, is seriously flawed. We go from a single version of distro-supported library/application with developers/packagers knowledgeable and focused on them, to multiple 'apps' bundling their own different library versions, packaged by app-devs who probably barely managed to package the bundle, let alone be able to patch bugs or vulnerabilities in the
[18:26] <TJ-> libraries. That has to be done for each snap, by it's publishers, so now you're reliant on timely patches and updates across multiple bundles, by people who have little security patching experience.
[18:26] <lotuspsychje> but the good news is, we can use latest packages somehow :p
[18:26] <nacc> TJ-: that's where parts come in
[18:27] <nacc> TJ-: and you can specify dependencies for packages
[18:27] <nacc> *as* packages
[18:27] <nacc> and it should dtrt across the distros
[18:27] <nacc> (that's my understanding)
[18:30] <TJ-> but it's still expecting the work to be done and provided outside of the distro ecosystem, in some ways it could be worse, what if App A depends on Part P, there's a vulnerability in P that affects A, but the publisher of P doesn't fix it?
[18:31] <nacc> then you shouldn't use that part
[18:31] <nacc> it's lilke any package dependency
[18:31] <nacc> TJ-: tbh, upstreams are *way* faster at doig most of this than the distros
[18:31] <TJ-> Right, but how does dev of App A know that in 6 months time Part P is going to have a vulnerability?
[18:32] <nacc> I don't understand?
[18:32] <nacc> upstreams do CI
[18:32] <nacc> the CI buillds the sanp
[18:32] <nacc> in any case, that was just my $.02
[18:33] <nacc> if you want to use linux on the desktop, get used to this model
[18:33] <nacc> if you want to improve the model, contribute
[18:33] <nacc> (TJ-: i know you do)
[18:35] <TJ-> I gave up on Linux desktop years ago; too many 'designers' and 'devs' and not enough 'engineers'.
[18:36] <nacc> heh
[18:36] <nacc> there's also $0 i it
[18:36] <nacc> *in it
[18:42] <TJ-> Right, part of the reason desktop struggles is the lack of stability of features - ripping features out during major-version rewrites (e.g. KDE, Gnome) instead of providing a continuous upgrade path. Users just about get used to finding their way around and !bam! it all changes from under them
[18:42] <TJ-> The only thing I use GUI for nowadays is Firefox
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: LTS is trying to get the users some sort of stable feeling no?
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: i installed xenial on like 50 machines
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> all working like a charm
[18:52] <lotuspsychje> i understand your point, but linux is still a good thing right
[18:52] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: consider 16.04 > 18.04 ... Unity > Gnome ... despite the massaging there are 'gotchya' differences with hot-keys, discovery, behavior, that we've seen reported for 17.10. Similar to the older KDE4 > 5 transition, and the Gnome 3 > 4 transition. User's have spent years on LTS, become familiar, and then suddenly things aren't working the way they expect
[18:53] <TJ-> Linux is fine, the command-line interface has been stable forever :) It's the GUIs that are stuck in a loop or reinventing themselves
[18:55] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: perhaps it feels that way, now were at a crosspoint wayland?
[18:55] <lotuspsychje> many stuff are happening, also mobile world
[18:55] <nacc> linux != ubuntu  or any distro, really, to be clear
[18:56] <lotuspsychje> also true nacc
[18:56] <nacc> i think, all the linux-based desktop distros have been circling for a while
[18:56] <nacc> they are finally converginng cross-distro
[18:56] <nacc> because they are all failing
[18:56] <lotuspsychje> fedora struggling with wayland aswell
[18:56] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: I'm not even considering Wayland, that's like pulling the rug out from under the desktop environments actually
[18:57] <nacc> yeah it's orthogonal
[18:58] <lotuspsychje> youve read kde going mobile
[18:58] <lotuspsychje> all sorts of stuff changing
[18:59] <nacc> yeah, keep in mind, what i mentioned above
[18:59] <lotuspsychje> and i still believe thats a good thing
[18:59] <nacc> is mobille didn't exist
[18:59] <nacc> when most desktop arches were designed
[18:59] <nacc> so all distros are realizing they need to work everywhere (in theory)
[19:00] <nacc> i feel like it's easy to forget that smart phones have nont always existed
[19:01] <lotuspsychje> yeah
[19:01] <TJ-> The problem has been, though, that most projects thought they could 'simplify' with one-size-fits-all, but focused on the small/low-resolution displays at the expense of large/high-resolution + multiple displays
[19:02] <nacc> absolutely
[19:03] <nacc> well, X itself was a problem
[19:03] <nacc> *is* a problem
[19:03] <nacc> you can't do aythinng remotely modern with X any more
[19:03] <nacc> and no one would design an graphics system that way :)
[19:05] <lotuspsychje> TJ-: didnt you say once one flavor was perfect for your 6 screens?
[19:05] <TJ-> The fast-path on a local client+server is OK, and could have been optimized or an alternate, process-elected, direct path used. And if remote is needed it's there waiting for ssh -X/-Y and so on
[19:06] <TJ-> lotuspsychje: yes, xubuntu or lubuntu
[19:07] <lotuspsychje> right
[19:10] <immu> i am back
[19:38] <lotuspsychje> tv time ; )
[19:46] <immu> i just watched star trek discovery
[19:58] <daftykins> what did you think? are you familiar with all the old series?
[20:04] <oerheks> hggdh, i find it troublesome installing a 2nd De, and removing one ..
[20:04] <daftykins> always gonna be junk left behind / added :>
[20:05] <immu> you aksing me daftykins ?
[20:05] <immu> i have watches earlier series
[20:05] <immu> watched
[20:05] <immu> and i am following this one:)
[20:05] <oerheks> DE as a snap, i wish that fixes such issue
[20:06] <hggdh> oerheks: I find it potentially destructive...
[20:06] <oerheks> maybe !purekde factoid is still valid
[20:06] <hggdh> but to each their own. If the OP wants to try... ,shrug/> all we can do is warn
[20:33] <immu> resistance is futile
[21:41] <Bashing-om> o/ Better late than not at all :)
[21:55] <oerheks> hi Bashing-om, you are not late at all
[21:57] <Bashing-om> oerheks: /me now has to wonder what I have missed .
[21:59] <TJ-> Hiya Bashing-om :)
[22:00] <TJ-> You've missed a /really/ weird issue with elichai2 where his system had replaced /bin/dash and many coreutils/cpio binaries with busybox symlinks, breaking almost everything we tried to do to fix the system.
[22:01] <daftykins> O_O
[22:02] <daftykins> how had busybox gotten on there o0
[22:02] <daftykins> that also sounds like it would be a user hiding behind a translator ;D
[22:02] <Bashing-om> TJ-: Ouch - I hate when I miss a goody - maybe good nuff to read the logs :)
[22:02] <TJ-> daftykins: no problem it being installed, but I've not figured out what re-wrote the symlinks/tools
[22:03] <daftykins> :>
[22:04] <TJ-> he did use boot-repair but I cannot find any evidence it does that!
[22:06] <TJ-> As I understand it, this started out with (simply) wanting to switch a 16.04 install from BIOS to EFI boot with encrypted rootfs. Used boot-repair apparently to try to do it, then after that didn't work, tried to re-install 16.04 over the top using the LiveISO installer. That's probably how busybox took over actually, then ended up trying to fix it via a chroot where most scripts that shebanged
[22:06] <TJ-> /bin/sh failed
[22:08] <Bashing-om> One thing about raising a head in support, never can tell where it is going to lead - nor where it will end :)
[22:09] <TJ-> yeah, what looks like a 2 minute job turns into a marathon
[22:10] <daftykins> well they found the right helper alright ;)
[22:11] <Bashing-om> TJ-: But them the ones ya get brownie points for :P
[22:11] <TJ-> I'd prefer just the chocolate brownies :D
[22:12] <daftykins> don't tell me you added brownies :O
[22:12] <daftykins> !cookie | TJ-
[22:12] <TJ-> only one!? pfft :p
[22:13] <daftykins> well we wouldn't want you getting too comfy :D
[22:13] <Bashing-om> Now that do sound tempting .. been a while for the chocolate brownies :(
[22:13] <daftykins> put in a request to the management, Bashing-om ;)
[22:14] <Bashing-om> daftykins: once there was a sanyd -- would make sure CCCs were in the irc pantry .
[22:17] <Bashing-om> daftykins: Not a bad thought as an incentitive for support .. A good solve gets a dozen CCCs mailed from "management" :P
[22:17] <daftykins> :D
[22:19] <TJ-> CCCs? Caonical Cookie Cutters ?
[22:21] <Bashing-om> TJ-: Sure that applies .. - context ! - Chocolate Chip Cookies- FTW .
[22:21] <TJ-> oooooohhhh! duh