[04:40] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[04:42] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: WB .. been a good steady session .. kinda nutzy .
[04:42] <lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om
[04:44] <lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: crowdy night?
[04:44] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Might take more than strong coffee to enable you to wade into this :P
[04:46] <lotuspsychje> lol
[05:08] <lotuspsychje> calmness has returned Bashing-om
[05:08] <lotuspsychje> no idea what ghostnik trying to do...
[05:12] <Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Upgrade, and he pushed the power button ! now can not boot .
[06:58] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:05] <lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
[07:05] <lordievader> Good morning lotuspsychje
[07:05] <lordievader> How are you doing?
[07:06] <lotuspsychje> great here tnx and you
[07:06] <lordievader> Doing allright here
[07:06] <lotuspsychje> freezing outside
[07:08] <lordievader> Jup
[07:08] <lordievader> -5
[07:08] <lordievader> How much is it there?
[07:12] <lotuspsychje> -7
[07:15] <lotuspsychje> the whole week
[07:19] <lordievader> Brrr
[07:42] <ducasse> good morning
[08:06] <lotuspsychje> hey ducasse
[08:27] <lotuspsychje> bbl prepare
[09:13] <lordievader> Hey ducasse
[09:13] <lordievader> How are you?
[09:19] <ducasse> good, thanks, lordievader - and you?
[09:19] <lordievader> I'm doing allright, thanks.
[09:21] <ducasse> quiet monday morning so far
[09:30] <lotuspsychje> im out guys
[09:30] <lotuspsychje> cu a bit laterz
[09:38] <lordievader> See you lotuspsychje
[11:16] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:34] <jink> Morning, Kaj.
[12:07] <BluesKaj> 'Morning jink
[12:27] <JimBuntu> g'morn y'all.
[18:10] <akik> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/+source/apport/+bug/1739531
[18:10] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1739531 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "apport-collect SHOULD NOT collect gnome-shell command history and favorites" [High,Confirmed]
[18:11] <akik> org.gnome.shell command-history in https://launchpadlibrarian.net/349970997/GsettingsChanges.txt
[18:16] <kostkon> akik, heh
[18:17] <akik> maybe that doesn't get enough visibility in the process. it's taken two months now
[18:23] <lotuspsychje> good evening guys
[18:24] <lotuspsychje> anyone noticed more black screen in #ubuntu lately?
[18:40] <daftykins> you mean nobody speaking? :)
[18:40] <lotuspsychje> lol
[19:05] <lexcurious> sup?
[19:06] <lotuspsychje> lexcurious: ansible is in the ubuntu repos, so yes users use it
[19:07] <daftykins> or at least a maintainer does xD
 general questions for community : 1) did you faced any dll hell in ubuntu in recent 2 years? 2) is it error free to upgrade to new major version of distro? 3) what kind of automaded toolchains you use for declarative configuration as a code(ansible?) and environment versioning ? 4) how do you install multiple minor versions of package same time? e.g python 3.5.3 , python 3.6
[19:08] <daftykins> haha, #1 isn't possible
[19:08] <nacc> dll?
[19:08] <nacc> you mean windows garbage
[19:08] <daftykins> careful, you'll sound like an OS wars idiot
[19:08] <nacc> :)
[19:09] <daftykins> #2 nope upgrades are never perfect, though many claim they're as smooth as silk
[19:10] <daftykins> #4 by specifying the full package name i expect
[19:10] <lexcurious> lotuspsychje thank you for your assistance
[19:10] <lotuspsychje> np
[19:11] <nacc> lotuspsychje: for #4, yhou either use virtualenvs, or containers or VMs
[19:12] <daftykins> oh yeah minor versions
[19:12] <lexcurious> 1) when user have two packets , both depend on libA.so.1 . second packet upgrades this lib, first packed become broken and incompatible with newer libA.so.1
[19:13] <nacc> lexcurious: that's not possible with ubuntu pacakges
[19:13] <nacc> lexcurious: well, i mean, 'becomes broken' is not possible, it should remove one or the other
[19:13] <nacc> obviously it's "possible", i should correct myself; the intention is ubuntu developers prevent that from happening
[19:14] <lexcurious> hmm
[19:14] <lotuspsychje> unless you add external ppa's
[19:14] <lexcurious> how they do that prevention?
[19:14] <nacc> lexcurious: if you have a specific example of a supported ubuntu installation doing that
[19:14] <nacc> lexcurious: by having appropriate dependencies, breaks, conflicts, etc.
[19:15] <lexcurious> they probably forcing user to upgrade to newer version of 1st package that have libA.so support?
[19:15] <nacc> lexcurious: i don't know what you eman
[19:16] <nacc> lexcurious: i'm guessing you're talking abstractly
[19:16] <nacc> lexcurious: give a concrete example please
[19:16] <lotuspsychje> lexcurious: whats the purpose of all these questions?
[19:17] <lexcurious> lotuspsychje , just honestly and openly trying to understand if ubuntu distro could satisfy my needs & use cases
[19:18] <nacc> lexcurious: i don't see how your questions pertain to use cases
[19:18] <lotuspsychje> lexcurious: to do what exactly?
[19:18] <nacc> lexcurious: maybe instead of asking random questions, list your use cases
[19:18] <nacc> lexcurious: also note that a lot of people use ubuntu for a lot of different things
[19:18] <lexcurious> lotuspsychje a software development .... I guess ?
[19:19] <nacc> lexcurious: are you really asking if linux is suitable for you?
[19:19] <nacc> becuase none of  your questions seem particularly ubuntu specific
[19:21] <lexcurious> relax, plz) i'm on linux, just thinking if I should make switch to ubuntu, and asking questions based on my needs
[19:23] <daftykins> don't be rude
[19:24] <nacc> lexcurious: just list your needs, as your questions seem to be not particularly helpful
[19:25] <lotuspsychje> lexcurious: we cant help if we dont know 'how' you see development?
[19:26] <lotuspsychje> if development means installing 5 package versions?
[19:26] <lexcurious> so lets be short and specific, let's look at use case 1) lets say firefox and vlc both depends on some lib, let's say glibc.so.1  a user want fresh version of vlc, so she updates vlc, vlc updates glibc.so.1   ; firefox could still depend on the old glibc right? so opt1 disto forces user to upgrade firefox, despite she might want keep old ver of firefox. or opt2 no update and firefox can't find correct shared lib
[19:26] <nacc> what kind of distro do you use that allows your applications to randomly break, lexcurious ?
[19:27] <nacc> lexcurious: or do you mean they build vlc from source?
[19:27] <lexcurious> in mentioned use case packages installed from binary repos
[19:27] <leftyfb> lexcurious: for this sort of development, you could use containers
[19:27] <nacc> and what distro let's installing one package break another package from the distro?
[19:27]  * nacc wants to note what distros never to use
[19:28] <nacc> unless you're on gentoo, in which case, good on you
[19:28] <nacc> lexcurious: the point you're missing is the 'fresh version' of vlc is coming from ubuntu
[19:28] <nacc> lexcurious: not from upstream
[19:30] <lexcurious> nacc at this moment AFAIK Arch. but it forces full system upgrade before installation of particular package . I have used ubuntu more than 10 years ago few times occasionally, and I saw similiar looking problem for dll hell. that made me frustrate, as windows users could easily upgrade software without dependecy breakage and keep multiple versions of same app. Afaik now such issues being tackled with Docker, Snaps. just cl
[19:32] <daftykins> Arch seems like a really bad idea to dev on :)
[19:35] <lexcurious> nacc, ok, probably I got it. all software in particular version of ubuntu repo is compatible between each other and tested against such problems, so that problem doesn't exist unless user installs from custom PPA ?
[19:37] <daftykins> which is why they're warned against
[19:37] <daftykins> Arch is a rolling release, so you get to deal with breakage every day!
[19:39] <lexcurious> hmm
[19:40] <lexcurious> but theretically, how can a user install on modern ubuntu and old version of firefox let's say v20 , and not to break system and other apps?
[19:40] <lexcurious> is that possible without docker?
[19:41] <lexcurious> and without recompilation from source
[19:43] <daftykins> that's not a very practical example since nobody would be sane keeping a browser so vastly out of date
[19:43] <nacc> lexcurious: you would build from source in a vm
[19:43] <lexcurious> it is theoretical abstract example, use case, so I will appreaciate clarification of existence or non-existence such proof of concept
[19:44] <nacc> lexcurious: no, you need to ask a better question.
[19:45] <nacc> lexcurious: you can't install firefox less than the version in the archive on a given version of ubuntu without tweaks
[19:46] <lexcurious> can't we just imagine QA department asked me for firefox v20 for testing purposes? If "build from source in vm" is only feasable answer , i will count it
[19:46] <nacc> lexcurious: and tbh, i don't know of any distro that does allow that
[19:46] <nacc> maybe gentoo
[19:46] <nacc> lexcurious: just think about your question for a bit
[19:47] <nacc> lexcurious: "how do i run an unsupported piece of software?"
[19:47] <nacc> lexcurious: how is that a point of relevance for the ubuntu distro
[19:47] <nacc> what is supported is very clear, it's what is in the archive
[19:48] <lexcurious> well, I didn't knew that it is usupported piece of software, sorry, my apologies
[19:48] <nacc> lexcurious: what is?
[19:48] <nacc> lexcurious: you didn't know firefox v20 was unsupported?
[19:48] <nacc> lexcurious: this makes me think, again, you're not asking the right questions
[19:48] <daftykins> also, a dev would not be asking i think, they'd work it out first hand
[19:49] <lexcurious> well, I thought, if X years ago there were firefox v20, and prebuilt binaries, deb packages for ubuntu, so it was supported back then, the question just goes how to install old software. that's was my logic chain
[19:49] <nacc> lexcurious: well, 'old software' is not supported
[19:50] <nacc> lexcurious: do you think ubuntu 8.04 is supported now?
[19:50] <lexcurious> I don't know
[19:50] <nacc> lexcurious: it's not.
[19:50] <nacc> lexcurious: LTS releases (now) have 5 year support times, non-LTS have 9 months.
[19:50] <nacc> lexcurious: so installing an old, now unsupported chunk of software is not supported.
[19:51] <lexcurious> ok, thnx
[19:51] <nacc> lexcurious: your thinking makes no sense to me as a software developer, btw
[19:53] <lexcurious> enterprise some times have rudimentary old proprietary binaries . and sometimes they require to satisfy dependencies, I though it will be possible to run them in modern version of distro. but you prove me wrong, so the only way to run then on old ver disto
[19:53] <akik> löysin aika pahan bugin launchpadista (apport) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/+source/apport/+bug/1739531
[19:53] <ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 1739531 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "apport-collect SHOULD NOT collect gnome-shell command history and favorites" [High,Confirmed]
[19:54] <akik> oops sorry
[19:54] <nacc> lexcurious: 'old proprietary binaries' implies all of ... not ubuntu