[03:35] ErichEickmeyer: maybe add that to next meetings discusion [05:15] OvenWerks: Done [19:00] Okay, time to give this bot a whirl... [19:00] #startmeeting [19:00] Meeting started Sat May 12 19:00:14 2018 UTC. The chair is ErichEickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [19:00] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [19:00] #chair ErichEickmeyer [19:00] Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer [19:00] #chair eylul [19:00] Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer eylul [19:00] #chair krytarik [19:00] Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer eylul krytarik [19:00] #chair captain-tux_ [19:00] Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer captain-tux_ eylul krytarik [19:00] #chair OvenWerks [19:00] Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux_ eylul krytarik [19:00] #chair sakrecoe1 [19:00] Current chairs: ErichEickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux_ eylul krytarik sakrecoe1 [19:01] Anybody else here? [19:01] WOW, I have never used meeting-whatever before [19:01] LOL [19:01] It accepts multiple nicks at once btw. [19:01] Good to know. [19:02] How is everyone? [19:03] yes, very how. [19:03] Such what, very how, super where. Wow. [19:04] I'm here - sorry [19:04] #aggree [19:04] wasn't paying attention [19:04] Okay, not seeing eylul or SlidingHorn just yet, and the first item is involving them, so .... oh, there's SlidingHorn [19:04] o [19:04] o/ [19:04] o/ [19:04] Oops [19:04] Okay, so here comes the first topic: [19:05] #topic New Website Theme (Eylul, SlidingHorn) [19:05] So, how's the progress on that, SlidingHorn? [19:06] Unfortunately I haven't gotten anywhere on that, my apologies. [19:06] I'm not aware of what exactly needs to be done, however [19:06] Well, it's really a matter of migrating the theme on eylul's site to ubuntustudio.com. [19:07] And maybe getting some photos on there as well. [19:07] As for the rest, she has more info. [19:07] We can table that topic for now if you'd like. [19:07] Okay, I'll make a point of contacting eylul within the next 24 hours to get that moving [19:08] Okay, cool. I think if we got that theme going, we'd make a very public statement that we're making progress and moving forward. [19:08] I don't think eylul has been around... some of what we were saying yesterday should have gotten a comment... [19:09] Yeah. I'm sure she'll turn up. [19:09] Probably busy. Happens. [19:09] Let's move on. [19:09] #topic Desktop Environments [19:10] OvenWerks: Loved your review of Plasma. Expressed my sentiments very well. [19:11] I think we should see if we can add a ubuntustudio-plasma meta to our repo. [19:12] Agreed. I honestly think that should be our first addition, and maybe stick with Xfce as the default. [19:12] We should probably rename the current one to ubuntustudio-xfce [19:12] Yeah. That'd be a good idea. [19:12] we could then take the current name and point it at one or the other as default. [19:12] A transitional dummy package. [19:13] probably not transitional, but as a way to point people at the default who have no idea what xfce or plasma mean [19:13] *sneaks in to the room* [19:14] o/ [19:14] * ErichEickmeyer notices a wild eylul appears [19:14] Quick! Get me a pokeball! [19:14] (stealth check failed) [19:14] :) oh dear. [19:14] haha [19:14] Welcome! [19:14] *natural 1* [19:14] * eylul quickly catches up to the backlog [19:15] ROFL [19:15] and please continue the discussion don't let me disrupt the meeting. sorry for being late [19:15] No worries. [19:16] OvenWerks: Do you think you could take the kubuntu-settings-desktop package and modify it to be more "Studio" like? Simply put, wallpaper and start button. [19:17] ErichEickmeyer: I will try... [19:17] Okay, cool. [19:17] I have both a bzr -controls and a git -controls sitting here and will try converting the LP version to git. [19:18] #info OvenWerks to work on forking kubuntu-settings-desktop package and create ubuntustudio-plasma package. [19:18] (may have misused that command) [19:18] I will try starting the plasma as git. [19:18] Perfect. That would get us migrated easier, I think. [19:18] That's #action [19:18] I was about to say that... [19:18] #undo [19:18] Removing item from minutes: INFO [19:18] #action OvenWerks to work on forking kubuntu-settings-desktop package and create ubuntustudio-plasma package. [19:18] ACTION: OvenWerks to work on forking kubuntu-settings-desktop package and create ubuntustudio-plasma package. [19:19] Awesome. So, I think we've established our first alternate environment. Should we stick with Xfce by default for now? [19:20] We have time to decide that when we have a working plasma desktop... [19:21] Cool. Let's roll forward with ubuntustudio-plasma and decide whether xfce or plasma will be default in 18.10 at a later time. [19:21] So yes default stays xfce, unless we vote something else [19:21] honestly considering timelines... even if we planned to switch defaults, 6 months really isn't a long time :) [19:21] That's true. Maybe we make the Plasma alternate and consider changing default for 19.04? [19:22] right, but if we get to beta with either or being able to load... it would be a choice. [19:22] Right. That's a choice we can put into the installer via radio button dialog, I think. [19:23] *nods* [19:23] The ISO will have to have a default, however. I think for size sake, Xfce is a safe default still. [19:23] you know.... [19:24] and I am putting this out here, just as a long term idea because we definitely don't have the packaging-testing power at the moment but... [19:24] we could possibly perhaps maybe have ISOs with both? so people can download what they want. *ducks the incoming objects from multiple directions* [19:25] If we have the manpower... [19:25] eylul: how far do we go with that? [19:25] I know Lubuntu did this for a while with LXQt, and they have a similar staffing situation to us. [19:25] how many iso should we keep? [19:25] this could be a good idea if we had 2 DEs. probably a very bad idea for all 5 of them. [19:26] right. [19:26] I wouldn't offer this if not for glowing review of plasma from OvenWerks. usually his and my user cases are very different so it makes me hopeful about it [19:26] Well, let's look at it like this: The top two default desktops for multimedia creation are Xfce (probably because of Studio) and Plasma (KXStudio, Fedora Jam) [19:26] while I would suggest that budgie, cinnamon, cnome are not suited as defaults, there is not reason not to offer them as install time options. [19:27] I can agree with that. [19:27] MATE, xfce and plasma are doable. [19:28] So, then that begs the question about new desktops: Plasma for 18.10 and then add MATE for 19.04? [19:28] unless lxqt basically takes over the xfce world in the next few years... I don't know that it would be worth spending time on right now. [19:28] I am just hoping maybe having a separate ISO would get people to try it out and test it beyond the regular testing process. [19:29] ah [19:29] eylul: That's exactly what Lubuntu did with Lubuntu-Next for LXQt, so I don't see why we can't do it. [19:29] Especially since I'm working relatively closely with tsimonq2. [19:29] * eylul nods at OvenWerks [19:30] Notice that they never actually *released* the LXQt until now though. [19:30] ErichEickmeyer: this might be a good route IF we decide that something other than XFCE is the new default [19:30] I didn't mean we'd do UbuntuStudio-Next. I mean we'd do UbuntuStudio-XFCE and UbuntuStudio-Plasma. [19:30] It would not be hard to have two iso if 32bit is gone. [19:31] That's a good point, too! [19:32] the installer bit would have to be part of the desktop meta. [19:32] (it would be different for each iso) [19:33] As long as we can get the metapackages sorted out, it should fall into place. [19:33] BTW, related: until MyPaint gets upgraded, our ISOs are going to continue to fail to build. [19:34] I don't see anything upstream for that. [19:34] I'll work with the release team on perhaps getting a git snapshot, which was suggested by jbicha. [19:34] * OvenWerks is not watching their dev work closely [19:35] Either that, or we'll have to remove MyPaint from default. [19:35] our graphics meta fails to load as well [19:35] That's because of the GIMP-MyPaint discrepency. [19:35] right [19:35] Anyhow... [19:36] it does look like the code is updated at least. so the work is ongoing [19:36] (sorry was checking their forums and github for any progress* [19:36] #action Erich to work on GIMP-MyPaint conflict with release team. [19:36] ACTION: Erich to work on GIMP-MyPaint conflict with release team. [19:37] So, did we reach the decision on adding Plasma as the first alternate desktop? [19:37] I'm in favor. [19:37] +1 [19:37] +1 [19:37] +1 [19:37] * OvenWerks seconds [19:37] sd [19:38] (sorry was wiping off my keyboard) [19:38] looks like a vote [19:38] That looks like a majority if not unity. [19:38] #agreed Adding KDE Plasma as first alternate desktop environment in 18.10 [19:39] Okay, with that, we'll drop the survey idea. [19:39] Anyhow, let's move this along. [19:39] #topic Wallpapers [19:39] #subtopic Targeting PNG format vs JPEG for submissions [19:40] OvenWerks: Can you fill us in on this one? [19:40] I can try... [19:41] because of the hurry at the end of last cycle, we ended up with a backdrop we were going to add that was JPG. and required changing two packages. [19:41] we should probably avoid this in the future by settling on a format to use [19:42] Agreed. PNG seems like the logical solution. [19:42] my main concern at least with this wallpaper was that the png file ended up being huge [19:42] it seems to me in the past PNG was specified for contest entries and defaults. [19:43] the wallpapers from the contest seemed to be a mix, the defaults are created as vector. I am not against png as default. I am just not sure at which point [19:43] My main question is how do the two formats deal quality wise with sizing? [19:43] what do you mean OvenWerks? [19:43] Isn't PNG basically lossless compression? [19:43] everyone has different screen sizes, [19:43] resizing affects png too [19:44] ErichEickmeyer: not sure it scales up when the original is not a vector art [19:44] a hw screen has an exact number of pixels. [19:44] So the backdrop is resized on the fly I would guess [19:45] this might mean a jpg would actually resize better. [19:45] Well, then, what if we had both? [19:46] * OvenWerks doesn't know how closely graphics is to audio in this respect. [19:46] the reason we want one to be default is that we only have to change one package to set default not two (or three) [19:46] could we modify the script [19:47] TBH, svg is the most scalable, but that's not common for wallpapers. [19:47] so that we can specify the file type on one package? [19:47] Also Erich we would still have to have started with a vector art to use that. [19:47] I don't know how plasma deals with this, but xfce needs the file name in a certian place [19:47] yes auto-trace got a lot better, but not quite that good :) [19:48] Plasma also needs the files in a certain place, but I had great luck with symbolic links for the wallpapers. [19:48] we do specify the type in one package... but we keep the image in another. [19:48] * eylul is testing exact file sizes of png output again while talking. [19:48] Xfce looks in /usr/share/backgrounds, plasma looks in /usr/share/wallpapers [19:48] link would fix that. [19:48] and plasma would handle a full path. [19:49] (same with xfce) [19:49] Yep. All I did was 'ln -s /usr/share/backgrounds/ubuntustudio/* /usr/share/wallpapers/* [19:50] now if we could use wildcards image.* that would be fine, but I don't think so. [19:50] well.. we now have time to test it out [19:50] Yeah. Let's test this and report back next meeting? [19:50] also.. speaking of testing we should probably test that the high res image (png or jpeg) is not bogging down a low end system. [19:51] How low are you talking? [19:51] the path to image has to be in the -desktop-DE meta but the images should be in a package common to both. [19:51] how low do we support I honestly have no idea if this would be an issue or not. [19:51] eylul: I don't think that is a problem, the image gets resized once on load? [19:52] the image is over 5MB for each screen (6-7 for png) not sure if it is a problem or not. [19:52] ah [19:52] Well, as I've said before, if you're running many of our apps you either have a higher-end system or have unworldly amounts of patience. [19:52] :D [19:52] ErichEickmeyer: yes but... [19:52] screen size is not the same thing [19:52] That's true. [19:53] also the problem is that we are putting a very large image for even someone who has 1/4th area of the screen. [19:53] There are both lower power/memory systems than mine with higher rez screens and more powerful ones with lower rez.. [19:53] Yeah, and it has to render that every time the desktop is shown. That adds up to problematic quickly. [19:54] exactly [19:54] So, do we, say, go roughly 720 and scale up, or meet somewhere in the middle at 1080? [19:55] Erich for context, I am on a 4K screen. [19:55] I'm on a 1080. [19:55] that's double of a 1080p on each dimension [19:55] 1920x1080? [19:55] :D [19:55] My former system was 1280x800. [19:55] I think that was what we were looking for last time [19:55] Before that I had a system at 1366x768. [19:56] mine are 1600x900 [19:56] *nods* a lot of newer laptops are 1920 or HiDPI through. it is a lot more common than it was 2-3 years ago. :) [19:56] Then, set 1080 as a target? [19:56] gotta compete with apple... [19:56] I think that is still valid [19:57] But, this still has the question of whether PNG or JPG. Would the two of you be able to test and report back by next meeting? [19:57] we can go with png. it is not a problem. [19:58] I just need to know how much MB size I can go with before we start bogging down systems badly. [19:58] and I am not sure how to check that. [19:58] it might be that we don't need to worry and that a few MB sized wallpaper is perfectly fine [19:58] Most low-end systems handle PNG fairly gracefully, in my experience. [19:58] which size is the question here. ;) [19:59] Okay, so we'll go with PNG, and size TBD? [19:59] which file size. yes [19:59] as in if we have a maximum or not [19:59] eylul: in a 20inch screen is there that much noticable difference from 1920x1020 and 4k? [20:00] I'll look for background but on browser [20:00] I definitely notice stuff that is low rez [20:00] On my 42-inch 1080 screen at work, I can definitely see pixelation, but that makes sense. [20:01] *nods* [20:01] 42 inch is too big for my desk... [20:01] * OvenWerks can't land f18s on it either... [20:01] Yeah, but I make videos for a living, so having something native is good. [20:02] So, should we table this for more testing? [20:02] yeah [20:03] * eylul wishes had space for a 42" screen. [20:03] it would be possible to have default and optional. [20:03] Okay. eylul and OvenWerks to do testing? [20:03] I can do a bit, but my screens are small and low res [20:04] *nods* I'll check what things look like on my screen if they are low rez. I think what I need is someone to make sure the current ones I did post are not causing overhead [20:04] too badly when used. [20:04] OvenWerks can check higher on low, and eylul can check lower on high. [20:04] Perfect comparison. [20:04] the ones I did link were high resolution. :) [20:04] of course 8k is "future proof" for a bit longer :) [20:04] so if they don't cause problems then we don't have a problem. [20:05] is there 8K screens out there outside of large displays? [20:05] ;) [20:05] #action eylul and OvenWerks to test various wallpaper resolutions and report back. [20:05] ACTION: eylul and OvenWerks to test various wallpaper resolutions and report back. [20:06] #agreed Using PNG as default format for wallpapers [20:06] We need to move this along. [20:06] #topic Welcome App & Software Boutique [20:06] I'm just going to give a brief status update on this one. [20:08] I'm working with tsimonq2 on forking ubuntu-mate-welcome since we can collaborate. He's doing it for Lubuntu, I'm doing it for Studio. It's up to Wimpress, but I have the feeling he could give us tips along the way if needed. [20:08] So, that's part of the flavor collaboration we've got going on. [20:08] budgie uses it too. [20:09] \o/ [20:09] Yep, and bashfulrobot is probably a good resource as well. [20:09] So, with that, since this is a project I'm focusing on, I'll take this one on. [20:09] I notice it is a snap package and that the mounted patitions remain after the app is closed. [20:10] #action ErichEickmeyer to work with tsimonq on ubuntustudio-welcome and ubuntustudio-software-boutique in collaboration with Lubuntu, with Budgie (bashfulrobot) and MATE (Wimpress) as possible additional resources. [20:10] ACTION: ErichEickmeyer to work with tsimonq on ubuntustudio-welcome and ubuntustudio-software-boutique in collaboration with Lubuntu, with Budgie (bashfulrobot) and MATE (Wimpress) as possible additional resources. [20:11] OvenWerks: I'll ask Wimpress about that. Chances are he'll see this. [20:11] ErichEickmeyer: question, would having 2DEs duplicate your work or one package will be usable for both plasma and XFCE? [20:11] One package would be usable for both. [20:11] nice :) [20:11] no problem, snap may do some of this at boot too for all I know. [20:12] Ya, that would work for as many as we ever have. [20:12] It's pretty desktop-independent. [20:12] Anyhow... we're running a bit overtime, so... [20:12] #topic Next Meeting [20:13] As you saw from the email, I'm not available next week. We can take the week off or I can write-up an agenda and one of you runs the meeing. Thoughts? [20:13] just a general caution. check any package before uploading to make sure it has not changed from bzr to git. [20:14] A week off would not hurt. I have stuff to do. [20:14] OvenWerks: Absolutely. I think it's more of a base than a fork. :) [20:15] I am available on the 26 though [20:16] I would actually be gone next weekend as well, most likely [20:16] I should be available on the 26th as well. Memorial day weekend, and my family will be in Idaho. [20:16] Okay. eylul, thoughts? [20:16] I wouldn't mind a break. [20:16] Cool. [20:16] #agreed Next meeting will be May 26th [20:16] Alright. That's all I've got. Any additional items? [20:17] I was going to ask if Slidinghorn or anyone else wants to co-manage the mastodon account. [20:17] so that we can be more active there. Just asking because I need to share the account info with you. [20:17] if that is the case [20:17] eylul: Sure [20:18] That reminds me, I have yet to make the Telegram group. [20:18] #topic Additional Items [20:18] #action SlidingHorn to help eylul with Mastodon account. [20:18] ACTION: SlidingHorn to help eylul with Mastodon account. [20:19] #action ErichEickmeyer will continue to investigate Telegram and Telegram-IRC bridge. [20:19] ACTION: ErichEickmeyer will continue to investigate Telegram and Telegram-IRC bridge. [20:19] Anything else? [20:19] not from me. [20:19] No [20:19] -controls has not really moved porting to git today. [20:20] That's okay. Still working on that? [20:20] I have the fun of getting it on to launchpad. [20:20] Joy. /s [20:21] Unless you weren't being sarcastic with the "fun" [20:21] #action OvenWerks to continue to get ubuntustudio-controls migrated to git. [20:21] ACTION: OvenWerks to continue to get ubuntustudio-controls migrated to git. [20:21] it was a one linner to get it to git on my system. [20:21] Wow! That's.. incredible! [20:22] some of the links in the instructions are bad though :P [20:22] Hmmm.... Documentation. :/ [20:23] Anyhow, shall we adjourn or do we have any other items to discuss? [20:23] I guess I can bug it. [20:23] was that a move? [20:23] I move to adjourn. Second? [20:23] o/ [20:23] Okay. Meeting adjourned. [20:23] #endmeeting [20:23] Meeting ended Sat May 12 20:23:58 2018 UTC. [20:23] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-05-12-19.00.moin.txt [20:24] Oh man! NO MORE MANUAL NOTES!!! :D :D \o/ [20:24] Thanks. [20:25] Well, it's kinda manual, still. :P [20:25] Yeah, I see the #agreed items didn't get in there. [20:26] Off to spend a little longer with my family before heading to work. I'll ge the notes emailed and post the news as soon as I can. [20:27] Bye all! o/ [20:27] o/ [20:27] See you around. [20:27] bye :) [20:28] OvenWerks: when you're doing your testing, are you just doing all of this in a VM? [20:28] I only test hw [20:29] I have three working partitions, 16.04.4, 18.04 and 18.10 [20:29] My home is on yet another... [20:30] (or part of it is) I like ~\.config etc. to stay with the working partition. [20:38] OvenWerks, what are you usually doing to your installation to test the Studio stuff? Just installing lowlatency kernel and the studio-meta repository? I'd like to have a look at it, since your description of KDE doesn't match up what I remember of it. :P [22:23] captain-tux_: It did not match what I remembered either :) [22:23] I had installed kde on my son's computer some years ago and did not like it. [22:24] for the most part I have installed ubuntustudio-menu and at least one of the metas. [22:25] I have not worried about the kernel as there is not a lot of difference. [22:27] The default menu is close enough to whisker as can be, (application launcher) but I normally change that to the application menu as my preference. I have moved the panel to the top as a preference, but was working with it on the bottom for a while with no problems as well. [22:28] I also change away from whisker to the xfce application menu when using xfce BTW. [22:31] captain-tux_: if you can be specific as to what you remember as being different from my report... [22:31] let us know. This is not a one man show by any means. [22:38] OvenWerks, it's been a while since I've used KDE, we have it running on a VM at work, but I don't usually do much with that. I mainly remember it as being bloated interface-wise and the opposite of consistent (as you described with the gnome apps being nicely integrated), just felt too cluttered and not really defined. This is basically only an UI/UX thing that I remember, which left me scarred since those days. [22:40] So I have extreme expectation bias, but I'm willing and dare I say also a little bit curious to try it out nowadays.