[00:04] bluesabre: Howdy. [00:08] hey there Unit193 [00:08] Thanks for scheduling the meeting [00:08] :) [00:08] Short notice is best notice? :3 [00:12] Definitely. [00:13] "Tue" makes it clear enough? :P [00:14] Weirdest part? I nearly always schedule it on the same day, at the same time. [00:15] Oh, it's two years in the past too. :P [00:15] Well, in the message body at least. [00:16] [19:00:20] < Unit193> ..And that's why I shouldn't use templates! :D [00:16] [19:21:11] <+Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2018-May/011660.html - Yes, I expect you to use a time machine to attend. [00:16] Oh, the day was actually right though.. >_> [00:18] "But the one in Jan of 2016 was an hour off!" Not local time. [00:19] Next community meeting, Mon, 05 Jan 2015 22:00 +0000 [00:19] Dunno what I was doing here. [00:19] bluesabre: So, sn-plugin? [01:06] Unit193: gitifying it? [01:06] Yes, git and push to salsa.debian.org/pkg-ayatana-team/? [05:27] Unit193: I'll be awake still at 9pm :) [05:33] \o/ [05:33] * flocculant adds stuff to agenda [05:33] sorry :) [05:36] Bah, figured someone would try to snipe and get stuff in. Should make a rule, no adding after 24h before meeting. :P [05:37] that'd be awesome for you and your set meeting less than 24 hours before a meeting :D [05:37] Yep! [05:37] Though really, it does help to add things before announce. I tend to wait until there's something to discuss. :3 [05:38] well most of that is pretty new to need talking up :) [11:27] Unit193, adding the new meeting time is a trivial update? i don't think so ;) [11:28] (also, you can't fly under my radar...) [11:28] i mean unseen [11:28] :P [15:14] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-terminal 0.8.7.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-terminal-0-8-7-4-released-tp51030.html (by Igor Zakharov) [18:26] knome: I'd say so, certainly. [18:42] Unit193: quite ballsy to announce a meeting on the same day :D [18:42] we'll see, maybe spontaneous is better [18:43] lol...maybe [19:42] ha ha [19:58] Evening some [19:58] howdy [19:58] On my phone, so will be slow to respond [19:59] hi bluesabre [19:59] or blue sab r r r r e [20:00] slow because network - or stupid sized keyboard - you'd know if I was droing tgat [20:01] : - ) [20:01] hello [20:01] hi albinard :) [20:01] hi albinard [20:01] thanks once again for the core tests :) [20:01] okay, hi both of you! [20:02] Tests: my pleasure, ready to go on the next series! [20:02] albinard: when you do - can you report to the tracker please :) http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/390/builds/172026/testcases [20:03] Excellent :) [20:03] Yes, I finally figured out how to do that properly - sorry I took so long! [20:04] albinard: no problem - I'm more likely to notice there ;) [20:04] :-) [20:06] who other than Unit193 is here for the meeting? [20:07] :-) lol [20:07] o/ [20:07] Me [20:08] hello, I'm a silent spectator, interested in Xubuntu [20:08] shall I start it then? [20:08] Me too, though I'm punching way above my weight [20:08] bluesabre: ? [20:08] * gQuigs here to watch and try to provide any i386 stats (or other stats if needed) if I have them.. [20:08] albinard: nope - you're in the community [20:08] weight enough for a community meeting [20:08] flocculant: begin :) [20:08] #startmeeting [20:08] Meeting started Tue May 15 20:08:59 2018 UTC. The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [20:08] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [20:09] #chair bluesabre Unit193 [20:09] Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant [20:09] bunch of actions ... [20:09] just a note that i might not be able to do the council stuff "first", so feel free to start with other discussion [20:10] knome: ack - ping when you can then :) [20:10] yep - or we can just do it "last" [20:10] ochosi: do you know if gradient swap-out and updating icons was done? [20:11] bluesabre: what about elemntary-xfce? [20:11] knome: okey doke [20:11] flocculant: all actions completed [20:11] the gradient swapout has been done [20:11] ack [20:11] that all went into 18.04 [20:11] Hi ochosi [20:11] do we need to #done them? [20:12] evening all [20:12] #chair ochosi [20:12] Current chairs: Unit193 bluesabre flocculant ochosi [20:12] we can if you want [20:12] just for completeness sake [20:12] I'll copy paste [20:12] (also feels nice having #done something ;)) [20:12] #done bluesabre will push beaaf3f6f47fb1e80fb7821fe69b3513a707cfbe and 28120d05e011ec89412d33d7dc5897d7f6bcf8ee from elementary-xfce to xubuntu-artwork as bugfix [20:12] #done ochosi and ali1234 will try to script the gradient swap-out for most icons that need updating [20:13] #done ochosi will manually update whatever icons are left over from the script approach [20:13] #done knome will file the UIFe paperwork once the branch is ready [20:13] #done bluesabre will again be doing the uploading honours [20:13] Very nice [20:13] awesome, thanks flocculant [20:13] ok - moving swiftly along I'll skip updates for the moment for knome [20:13] #topic Disucssion [20:13] #undo [20:13] Removing item from minutes: TOPIC [20:13] :] [20:14] #opic Discussion [20:14] #topic Discussion [20:14] ok, so first one is from me [20:14] sigh [20:14] i forgot to put my nick after the topic [20:14] #subtopic List of Xfce 4.13 components we plan to include in 18.10 [20:14] I guessed :) [20:14] we compiled a list of components and split them up to PPAs for 18.04 [20:14] and i felt we really did a good job there [20:15] ack [20:15] made sure that we got stable but up to date stuff in [20:15] * flocculant still using that as bionic [20:15] for 18.10 i would actually love to integrate more 4.13 components [20:15] one of the things i would vote for including is the panel [20:15] +1 for that [20:15] (4.13) [20:15] yep - using that [20:16] ochosi: Was a different day. The crappy part is showing up 20 minutes late... [20:16] we have 2 years until the next LTS, this is the perfect time to introduce new stuff [20:16] probably because i've spent a lot of time on the port, probably because i've been using it daily for >9months without problems [20:16] Unit193: welcome back :) [20:16] Yeah...Sorry all for not being on time.. [20:16] knome: yeah, that's exactly my point [20:16] you can take the reins now if you're ready [20:16] Unit193: lol, it's fine, actually there are a lot of ppl here, so good job! [20:16] :-) [20:17] back at my computer [20:17] :) [20:17] so, i dunno if we wanna discuss the actual components now [20:17] for me it was mostly a reminder that we should do that soon [20:18] ochosi: wa sjust going to ask that :) [20:18] can do it offline without a meeting too, to keep this one short/er [20:18] is the panel in a ppa somewhere currently? [20:18] or take ti to m/l ? [20:18] but i would've wanted a brief vote or feedback from all of you if you agree on this direction (aka "include more 4.13 components") [20:18] bluesabre: checking [20:18] bluesabre: not sure tbh [20:18] we'll have other things taken to the ml as well, most likely [20:18] I am running several GTK3 ports, just not thunar, xfdesktop, or xfce4-panel. [20:19] bluesabre: nope [20:19] ochosi: I'm in favor of including more gtk3 bits [20:19] +1 for me on the more 4.13 [20:19] include everything [20:19] I'd +1 adding the things [20:19] ali1234: i would be sceptical of xfwm4 tbh [20:19] but the rest is probably fine [20:19] I'd say hard no to xfwm. [20:19] will get fixed a lot quicker if it's infront of people :) [20:19] but anyway, we should probably have a separate discussion about the actual list [20:19] saves me saying that Unit193 ^^ [20:20] ochosi: sounds fair [20:20] wanna cast a quick vote? [20:20] wfm [20:20] or is nobody objecting anyway [20:20] xfwm seems objected to, but that seems like it [20:20] objection to 1 thing :) [20:20] * ochosi frantically tries to remember the right order of meetingology vote commands [20:20] maybe it would be easier to make a list of things to *not* include? [20:20] # vote if that's what you want [20:21] with no space ofc [20:21] flocculant: yeah, but i thought there was more [20:21] # voters [20:21] *shrug* [20:21] is there anything we *don't* want to include? [20:21] I'd just go with it - we know which +1's would be team [20:21] xfwm4 [20:21] knome: ^^ [20:22] because it's broken? [20:22] basically [20:22] has lots of issues for some people [20:22] yes [20:22] #vote 18.10 shall - in general - contain more 4.13 components. [20:22] Please vote on: 18.10 shall - in general - contain more 4.13 components. [20:22] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [20:22] I've got the ppa version I believe [20:22] +1 [20:22] +1 received from flocculant [20:22] but the goal is to have it included in 20.04? [20:22] +1 [20:22] +1 received from ochosi [20:22] +1 [20:22] +1 received from akxwi-dave [20:22] +1 [20:22] +1 received from bluesabre [20:22] +1 [20:22] +1 received from krytarik [20:22] i mean obvs we're not going to include $other_component if it's very broken either [20:22] +1 [20:22] +1 received from knome [20:22] knome: I think that's the goal [20:23] I've been telling folks that xfce 4.14 isn't much further away [20:23] (and it's not) [20:23] yep [20:23] settings also has some issues, but i guess our motivation to fix that is higher if we decide to include it [20:23] exactly [20:24] (and it's another component team members are actively working on) [20:24] yup [20:24] if we don't include it now, what are the chances it's getting the love later [20:24] I'd guess really broken things are a bit different to mostly working [20:24] knome: we'd be saying that in 19.10 [20:24] i want to say that now :) [20:24] #endvote [20:24] Voting ended on: 18.10 shall - in general - contain more 4.13 components. [20:24] Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [20:24] Motion carried [20:24] because then we really have "all the time" for making stuff work [20:25] I think settings is near enough to 100% that it can be included with one or two more fixes [20:25] knome: you here now for the updates things? [20:25] if so tell Unit193 :) [20:25] Unit193, let's do the council stuff last. [20:25] knome: Alright. [20:25] #subtopic Continued support of i386 images [20:25] bluesabre: Hello. [20:25] bluesabre: yeah, there's broken mouse scrolling, some more small things, nothing which can't be handled [20:26] * flocculant puts kettle on [20:26] Unit193: hello [20:26] So, most of the flavors are dropping i386 this cycle [20:26] akxwi-dave: open s the wine [20:26] I think only lubuntu and xubuntu remain at this point... [20:26] yep [20:26] I'm slightly biased, I use 32bit Xubuntu. [20:27] my current seeds totals are 54.5 gig for 32 and 48.5 for 64 [20:27] I test 32 in a vm only [20:27] I suspect that might be the case for a lot of us [20:28] seed totals are biased though, if fewer people seed the 32 bit images [20:28] my question (we can't answer) is if that's because people "do not know better" or because they really need it? [20:29] Do we think i386 can be sufficiently tested by our two small teams and a relatively small portion of the community? [20:29] Lot of download server places advertise "if you're unsure, use 32-bit" [20:29] my torrents favour 64 bit - or did [20:29] bluesabre: I don't [20:30] I'm concerned on a couple of points [20:30] and what do we gain if we were to drop support for it? [20:30] Only one official ISO to test. [20:30] since 15.10 mine have been roughly half and half, and as for testing i'm not we can test sufficiently [20:31] but isn't keeping 32-bit ISOs a chance for Xubuntu to bring some users from MATE? [20:31] i haven't used/seen 32bit anywhere in years, so i personally wouldn't mind dropping. then again, if there are ppl who need it and we think we want to afford the extra testing effort... [20:31] (btw, if more testing gets automated - which was pronounced a goal by other flavors - we may end up having more time for testing) [20:32] ochosi: we get a few vm tests - possibly 1 or 2 people who test hardware (iirc) [20:32] ochosi: but that's install testing only [20:32] do normal social media calls for testing and specifically mention we need 32-bit *hardware* tests and also that if we do not get that, then we'll likely drop 32-bit? [20:32] nope [20:32] oh [20:32] And I don't do install testing on real hardware, I only test the release. [20:33] was that a do we? knome [20:33] that was one suggestion [20:33] oh right [20:33] i test to only test 32 on real hardware come beta's, all others are VM.. 64 is usually mis of hardware and vm throughout [20:34] I think the last thing I'd note, if lubuntu drops it, I don't think it makes sense for us to maintain it officially... and if we drop it, lubuntu may well follow suit [20:34] mmm [20:34] so we're in a funny position atm :) [20:34] :) [20:34] well, lubuntu has kept all kinds of low-end stuff enabled [20:34] in the past, that is [20:34] when we didn't [20:35] so another way to look at it is to ask ourselves if we want to support "legacy" hardware, or if we trust lubuntu does that [20:35] what about xubuntu core? [20:36] unfortunately it's not even "official" yet [20:36] so what we're really asking is - do we sit on the fence [20:36] hoping to rectify the official status in the next month or so [20:36] making it official will already bring new tests for us to do [20:36] indeed [20:36] should we do a very quick preliminary, non-binding vote? [20:37] so we could end up with 1-4 test suites based on this decision and making core official [20:37] or even a non-#vote, just +1 or -1 for dropping? [20:37] Note that 32bit Xubuntu could still be installed via the mini iso [20:37] as is the case with all the flavors [20:37] yeah... [20:38] that's a good point. [20:38] not sure if they intend to keep mini 32 bit [20:38] also a good point [20:38] if not, isn't that a very strong message against 32-bit? [20:39] You can install without that as long as the archive is there. [20:39] ali1234: I'll follow whatever desktop does, though. [20:39] I 'think' I saw - they can use server to install *-desktop [20:39] basically xubuntu is much less the OS for the slow/old computers than it used to [20:40] the change is reflected not only in the strategy document, but i don't think we have made very many decisions that specifically favor low-end machines either [20:40] "Xubuntu does not explicitly target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum. Xubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users, regardless of their hardware." https://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/xsd.html [20:41] At this point is anyone in favor of keeping 32bit, or is this an echo chamber? [20:41] I'm not against keeping them [20:42] But supporting 32 can be difficult, we had some 32bit specific bugs last cycle [20:42] me neither really... [20:42] point [20:43] if we are getting xfce from upstream - how much work gets done there for 32 bit? [20:43] or is it a bit of a wasteland there in that regard? [20:44] I think any arch-specific support upstream is only added when there's an issue [20:44] i don't know for 32-bit specifically, but xfce is trying to support as many systems as possible, at least historically [20:44] not really sure what the current state is [20:44] well so did Xubuntu [20:44] my previous comment was ignored, and probably was stupid, but do you see a chance for bringing ("stealing"?) some users wanting 32-bit from Ubuntu MATE? [20:44] we never had support outside 32-bit or 64-bit :) [20:45] Spass: sorry about that... I don't imagine we'd win users from MATE just by having the 32-bit support [20:45] Spass, what's the gain if we gain new users from mate if it gives us more work but no more contributors? [20:45] yes knome, come to the dark side :) [20:45] Unit193: round and round - stop the roundabout :p [20:45] well, more users = more potentially contributors? [20:46] yeah, that potential exists [20:46] Spass: wanting xfce to be mate ? [20:46] i don't think it's very likely :P [20:46] but yeah, I think we can have that non-binding vote to see where the team is currently standing [20:46] flocculant: Sounds like "Too early to tell, table it and see what happens with the discussion on the mailing list" to me. [20:46] wfm [20:46] and yeah, if 32-bit is the thing people want, i'm pretty sure they would go to just other distros with mate and 32-bit? [20:46] Unit193: +1 [20:47] Unit193: +1 [20:47] yeah, wfm. [20:47] Unit193: hint: casting votes can make discussions end earlier ;) [20:47] Unit193: +1 [20:47] +1 [20:47] I like this nick voting system [20:47] haha [20:47] eveeryone loves Unit193 :) [20:47] Sounds like this discussion is tabled for now. [20:47] <3 [20:47] it's Unit196 now? [20:47] Unit193: ta [20:48] #agree Topic tabled for now, will follow the mailing list for further information. [20:48] #subtopic Move seed to Git [20:48] aah yea [20:49] that was mostly a - did we do this? if not are we? [20:49] Pretty sure bluesabre and I are in favor, we're migrating everything to git as far as I knew. [20:49] bluesabre had already done several, I've had a rolling one for the docs for quite some time. [20:49] i don't think it makes sense not to at this point [20:49] I have no clue how translations work with that, but we'll find out. [20:50] ok - I did see discussions about other things - just wasn't sure re that specific thing [20:50] * flocculant is happy to move swiftly along [20:50] Unit193: what I have found so far is that translations are still tied to bzr [20:50] looking forward to just using git [20:50] our LP branches have always been my sole and only use-case for bzw [20:50] bzr [20:50] so they can be synced to lp via import and then have to be manually imported later [20:50] for transparency reasons, please let's vote on the git migration [20:51] and i'm not angry if i can forget about the bzr commands [20:51] or at least do some mailing list action [20:51] bluesabre: I'd think there has to be a way.. [20:51] send a mail, ask for comments and if nothing comes up within specified time (week or two), consider it approved [20:51] Unit193: please look into that, https://launchpad.net/sgt-launcher has the system I detailed just before [20:52] can't we cast a vote here? [20:52] ochosi, we can do that, do we reach quorum? [20:52] that's the only question [20:52] eg. do we need to take it to the ml anyway... [20:52] knome: I mean, we're kind of already doing it.. [20:52] 6 voted last time - team is 11 with daniel kessel [20:52] Unit193, i know... [20:52] not sure a vote is really needed, the code is staying on launchpad so the permission and availability systems remain the same [20:52] knome: ...Just have the dev team vote! ;) [20:53] i just want it documented [20:53] i'm fine if the dev team is the voters :P [20:53] then let's just #agree [20:53] +1 [20:53] then it's documented too [20:53] I'm in favor [20:53] wfm [20:53] +1 for what the dev team want [20:53] as long as there is that archived bit [20:54] so it's not a surprise 5 years later when nobody here is on the team any more (yeah ha ha) and people wonder how this happened [20:55] Xubuntu 23.10 Mighty Mollusk [20:55] ;) [20:55] * flocculant will have fun with MM if he's alive still [20:56] should have seen the first https://wiki.xubuntu.org/_detail/qa/newgrub.png?id=qa%3Afine_tuning [20:56] anyway [20:56] so, then # agree it :) [20:56] #agree Dev Team moves to Git as they see fit [20:57] bluesabre could have done it [20:57] yeah, suppose I am in fact a chair [20:57] I made sure :p [20:58] #subtopic Milestone changes [20:58] So - old style milestones have mostly gone now [20:58] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CosmicCuttlefish/ReleaseTaskSignup [20:59] 1 Beta left at the end of the cycle [20:59] no iso's built other than dailies until then (afaik) [20:59] We'll NOT be doing anything next week ;) [20:59] so there will be no flavor-organized freezes for their images? [20:59] no [21:00] I think I was the only one who wanted that [21:00] or do we just decide $this_daily to be a milestone? [21:00] meh, that would have been nice [21:00] sounds like the iso just rolls throughout that week [21:00] aren't some old dailies kept intact on the servers? [21:00] the 'plan' is to shout like we used to - but people will get dailies to check instead of a frozen one [21:01] bluesabre: yea [21:01] flocculant, or a certain daily? [21:01] knome: not as far as I am aware - that wouldn't be any different than what we had [21:01] that sounds reasonable, makes it easier to land fixes in the middle of the testing week [21:01] other than an iso at the end - which we tell people not to use [21:02] bluesabre: yea [21:02] though I do take exception to it being called Week [21:02] flocculant, ok, whatever you think works - it's mostly a qa/dev team cooperation thing anyway [21:02] so if devs are also involved in those, it should yield better results [21:02] hope so [21:02] I dig it [21:02] :-) [21:03] and it'll stop the interminable respin issue [21:03] which drove me nuts [21:03] :) [21:03] and just confused the issue of milestones in my opinion [21:03] not just ypu :-) [21:04] anyway - pretty much a fait accompli - just bringing it up so everyone is aware [21:04] Alright, want to #info anything? [21:04] yea I guess [21:05] #info Milestone Alpha/Beta's change to Milestone Testing Weeks. 1 Beta remains at cycle end [21:05] OK, good? [21:06] yea - move right along the bus :) [21:06] #subtopic New QA Webpage [21:06]