[00:04] <nacc> lol
[04:03] <SlidingHorn> where would I direct someone to ask about a possible SRU?  (see: bug in main regarding openssh)
[04:15] <guiverc> SlidingHorn, looking myself - #ubuntu-bugs comes to mind - mailing list maybe is https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad  - but is it appropriate??
[04:17] <SlidingHorn> Well, if I'm reading it correctly they patched it into Yakkety, but not Xenial yet
[04:17] <SlidingHorn> oh...wait.
[04:17]  * SlidingHorn sings alphabet to self
[04:17] <guiverc> i can't help (and i looked), mostly upstream & debian is all i saw re: xenial..  I'd ASSUME xenial is covered by debian versions mentioned; but I don't know
[05:06] <ducasse> good morning
[05:35] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[05:56] <lotuspsychje> uh oh nebi is in the house>...run
[06:10] <lordievader> Goos morning
[06:13] <lotuspsychje> heys lordievader
[06:14] <lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje How are you?
[06:14] <lotuspsychje> fine tnx happy almost weekend
[06:16] <lotuspsychje> you also have holiday on minday lordievader
[06:16] <lotuspsychje> *monday
[06:16] <lordievader> Long weekend :D
[06:16] <lotuspsychje> yess
[06:17] <lordievader> Yes
[06:17] <lotuspsychje> we have been to amsterdam last weekend
[06:17] <lordievader> Oh, how was it?
[06:18] <lotuspsychje> very nice, we had the best weather
[06:18] <lordievader> Yeah, the weather last week has been nice :)
[06:19] <lotuspsychje> we did van gogh museum, canal cruise, center town, shopping,bijenkorf
[06:19] <lotuspsychje> and lot of grachten :p
[06:19] <oerheks> That is where heineken is made of
[06:19] <oerheks> LoLz
[06:19] <lotuspsychje> lol
[06:20] <oerheks> and amsterdam has got famous cheese .. but i never see any cow
[06:20] <lotuspsychje> lol
[06:20] <oerheks> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jmdxyqo3197gvp6/2018ride.jpg?dl=0
[06:20] <lotuspsychje> lets c
[06:21] <lotuspsychje> oerheks: drabber split in 2?
[06:22] <oerheks> Drabber & Pien ( from mom)
[06:22] <lotuspsychje> ahhh
[06:22] <lotuspsychje> on your bakfiets.nl
[06:22] <lotuspsychje> we saw alot of those too
[06:48] <SlidingHorn> what is happening? xD
[06:51] <el> bugzie has spent the past hour making a mess in #freenode and then decided to return to #ubuntu to show off his aptitude at using vpns. it'll be messy for a while, it usually is with him.
[07:09] <SlidingHorn> not that it surprises me, but he was doing the same thing in #freenode?
[08:10] <EriC^^> morning all
[08:32] <lordievader> 👋
[11:55] <pauljw> Hi everyone
[13:01] <jink> Hi paul.
[13:07] <pauljw> hi jink :)
[13:12] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[13:43] <pauljw> hi BluesKaj, biab... :)
[14:16] <leftyfb> gah, I did that once
[14:17] <leftyfb> at a place I worked, we had a box that we did EVERYTHING on. It was the sysadmin of boxes. I forget how, but I executed every line in the bash_history ... or at least started to
[14:17] <leftyfb> we didn't end up finding any consequences, but boy could that have been dangerous
[14:37] <pragmaticenigma> sounds like fun... I'm curios what 7.* actually removed
[15:20] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: just because there's a channel specifically for ubuntu-on-windows doesn't mean it's not supported in #ubuntu
[15:20] <tgm4883> just that there may be more users for that specific niche in that channel
[15:21] <pragmaticenigma> tgm4883: They were asked to change channels several times. It doesn't help a user to have multiple people tell them to move to another channel and then someone turns around and starts helping
[15:23] <tomreyn> tgm4883: are you saying that WSL should now be supported on #ubuntu? since that'd be new - so far the common POV seemed to be that it's not. but i think the ubottu factoid must have recently changed about it, too. i think it used to state that it's not supported.
[15:24] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: that happens all the time
[15:24] <tgm4883> tomreyn: I see no reason why it shouldn't be supported in #ubuntu
[15:24] <tgm4883> It's ubuntu branded and thus blessed (if not developed directly) by canonical
[15:24] <tomreyn> well, works about as reliable as nvidia on 18.04, i guess.
[15:24] <JimBuntu> I have no say really, but I view supporting WSDL in #ubuntu as worse than supporting non-English speaking in #ubuntu
[15:26] <JimBuntu> is WSDL covered under the listed versions in the topic? "supports Ubuntu and official flavors; versions 14.04, 16.04, 17.10, and 18.04 "
[15:26] <tomreyn> ok, i'm making things up about a recent change of the factoid: Last modified: 2017-10-18 14:59:12
[15:26] <tgm4883> JimBuntu: WSL is 16.04, so yes?
[15:26] <leftyfb> I think any server/dev activities with WSL should be supported within the OS. Any installation or hardware level or Windows integration issues should not be. WSL literally downloads the Ubuntu cloud image for the OS.
[15:27] <pragmaticenigma> My take is the cross over between doing some things with Windows and some things with WSL in CLI confusing to any new user who's actually on Ubuntu and comes to the room looking for help, and wondering why we are talking about Windows
[15:28] <leftyfb> !wsl > leftyfb
[15:28] <pragmaticenigma> If they had asked something that was easily accomplished with the WSL environment, I wouldn't have cared as much. But they didn't even know where the file was download or how to do a simple "cd" command. To me, better to move them to a more dedicated venue, then tie up others
[15:28] <JimBuntu> !wsl > JimBuntu
[15:28] <tomreyn> i remember that we had several situations where one of us spent a lot of time on trying to debug a weird issue with someonee. and then they said "oh btw. i'm using ubuntu on windows".
[15:28] <tgm4883> Literally the only thing they needed assistance with is where the C drive was mounted in Ubuntu
[15:29] <tgm4883> which would have been super simple to find out for us even for anyone not using WSL
[15:29] <JimBuntu> That seems official enough... coming from a ubot
[15:30] <leftyfb> tgm4883: that's the sort of thing I feel we shouldn't go out of our way to support since it's not an officially supported feature
[15:30] <tgm4883> leftyfb: how is it not an officially supported feature?
[15:30] <leftyfb> the problem is, when someone has a broken package like they did yesterday, which was easily fixed by someone that knows ubuntu, and they get sent to ##windows to help. How does that help anyone?
[15:31] <leftyfb> tgm4883: well, WSL seems to be lava for a lot of people here .... so something beyond what's found in a typical ubuntu server install I would assume would be where we draw the line
[15:32] <leftyfb> tgm4883: and since there's no host Windows drive mounted in a default install of ubuntu server ....
[15:32] <tgm4883> leftyfb: anything not a standard Ubuntu ISO install seems like lava for lots of people here...
[15:32] <leftyfb> again, I'd be happy to help with that regardless
[15:33] <tgm4883> leftyfb: with that regard, we stop supporting anything that isn't available in the live cd
[15:33] <leftyfb> and it's somewhat understandable in most cases .... but again, to send someone to #windows for help with a broken mysql-server install on ubuntu, that's just plain silly
[15:33] <tgm4883> leftyfb: omg, that actually happened?
[15:33] <leftyfb> yep
[15:33] <leftyfb> yesterday
[15:34] <pragmaticenigma> tgm4883: because there's a lot of bad information out there, and out dated information. Worst of all, these "helpful" articles ask users to install PPAs that include older packages that are properly maintained in the offical Ubuntu PPAs. It's a nightmare trying to untangle all that
[15:34] <tomreyn> personally i won't support WSL, because i think people should switch to linux (and that is what i want to support) and i think WSL is just another way to prevent them from doing so.
[15:34] <tgm4883> I swear I need banning powered for that reason
[15:34] <tgm4883> tomreyn: not supporting something for person reasons and sending someone away are different things
[15:35] <leftyfb> tgm4883: that wouldn't have been an easy ban for you. It was a regular who triggered !wsl which tells them to go to the channel with 9 people in it or #windows. Then we had someone from #windows come in and complain we sent someone there. I ended up helping the guy fix their packaging.
[15:35] <tomreyn> tgm4883: taht's right. so i should say that IMO #ubuntu should not support WSL, because microsoft does not support it either, nor does, to my knowledge, canonical.
[15:36] <tgm4883> tomreyn: so we only help with packages in main then?
[15:36] <leftyfb> Again, the install is just Ubuntu cloud image. I see no reason why it wouldn't be supported by Canonical.
[15:37] <tomreyn> tgm4883: with software you can install from an ubuntu OS (which in my understanding runs on the linux kernel), i'd say.
[15:37] <pragmaticenigma> tgm4883: That's what we have documentation for. That's why anything outside of that is treated like lava. Without some documentation, it's hard to know the  right questions to ask a user about what they did and how to correct it
[15:38] <pragmaticenigma> I can use the Ubuntu documentation much more readily than when someone comes in asking about how to run some program that I can't even access it's documentation because the company that made it is gone or hides the docuemntation behind a customer login
[15:38] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: as leftyfb has mentioned (twice), it *is* a Ubuntu install.
[15:39] <tomreyn> this may seem like a fierce discussion, but i think it's good to have it actually.
[15:39] <tgm4883> tomreyn: +1
[15:39] <leftyfb> +1
[15:40] <pragmaticenigma> And if they install packages that come from the repos that are offered by Canoncial, then that's great. But when they install PPAs that go and force updates on the user, that aren't part of the main ubuntu repos... we're stuck in limbo have not realzing that they have a kernel patch or library patch that is required by some other component that is expecting a now deprecated method or function
[15:41] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: when I say main. I mean "main", as in not "Universe", "Multiverse", or "Restricted"
[15:42] <tomreyn> i don't have a say in what will be supported in #uubntu and what not, but i if WSL will be supported then i won't be able to support anyone without asking "do you run WSL" anymore in the future. which adds to the questions of "so you actually run ubuntu?" and "do you run a non EOL release?",. and at some point people will need to fill a questionnaire before we can sart supporting them. ;-)
[15:42] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: as in, the only canonical supported repo (eg. I can purchase support and get help from canonical on this)
[15:42] <leftyfb> oh, I don't think we should limit those out. I really haven't ever seen an issue with a package because it was from universe or multiverse
[15:42] <pragmaticenigma> that's why I don't agree on supporting outside software. it's also in my experence that most of the outside software is stuff that the user is paying for support on, and they refuse to call the software vendors support line. Or the other fun one, when they come in and expect us to fix a problem they're getting paid to fix themselves
[15:42] <leftyfb> btw, inxi is from Universe and we suggest that all the time
[15:42] <tgm4883> leftyfb: you're right, we shouldn't. But that's kinda the point
[15:43] <pragmaticenigma> Universe, Mulitverse, Restricted are offered and maintained by Canoncial (at least that my knowledge) they're currated to ensure system compatibility. And they are also included by default, if only disabled by default
[15:44] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: yet they are not supported by Canonical
[15:44] <pragmaticenigma> tgm4883: Source of that information would be helpful for me
[15:44] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: you can't purchase support for packages in those, they don't get security updates
[15:44] <tgm4883> one sec
[15:44] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu
[15:44] <tomreyn> there's the security team faq. but i think not everyone in canonical agrees to their strict interpretations.
[15:45] <tgm4883> Main - Canonical-supported free and open-source software.
[15:45] <tgm4883> Universe - Community-maintained free and open-source software.
[15:46] <tomreyn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ
[15:46] <tgm4883> Or check the software sources app on any Ubuntu install. It says that right there
[15:48] <tgm4883> tomreyn: I don't see how that conflicts with anything that was said, other than main and restricted being supported by the security team
[15:48] <leftyfb> aren't we the community? :)
[15:48] <tgm4883> leftyfb: yes
[15:49] <leftyfb> I miss those LoCo days
[15:49] <tomreyn> tgm4883: i didn't mean to say it conflicts with anything that was said here.
[15:49] <tomreyn> tgm4883: is just posted the link as a second perspective on things
[15:50] <tgm4883> leftyfb: that's kinda the point. We (the community) already support many more things than are supported by canonical. WSL is a Ubuntu install, and as such should be supported in #ubuntu
[15:50] <leftyfb> I agree
[15:50] <leftyfb> to a point
[15:51] <leftyfb> asking how to install it, maybe just point at the docs
[15:51] <leftyfb> how to get Desktop working on it, no
[15:51] <pragmaticenigma> Thanks for the link tgm4883, I agree that it implies Canonical only handles main. I'm open to the others as was just said, we are the community. the community support repos are fine with me as well. I'll have to look up the requirements for a package to be added to Universe/Restricted ... as I think Canoncial does required a listing for a developer website
[15:51] <tgm4883> leftyfb: that sounds fine to me
[15:53] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: There are requirements, I don't believe they are from Canonical though (although it's likely that all the gate keepers for said repo are Canonical employees)
[15:53] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: they likely came from the technical board
[15:54] <tgm4883> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard
[15:54]  * tomreyn /invite donofrio #ubuntu
[15:58] <tomreyn> apparently i'm the only one who considered this funny. :-/
[15:59] <leftyfb> inside joke?
[16:00] <tomreyn> must be. donofrio was sharing his experience about running ubuntu on windows a lot, asked a lot of questions on it in #ubuntu, was repeatedly asked to ask them in the wsl channel instead, and then talked a lot to himself there.
[16:01] <tomreyn> so tgm4883 + leftyfb, if #ubuntu will take a softer stance wrt wsl then the factoid should maybe be updated...
[16:01] <tomreyn> or we just keep it as it is and just dont ask people to move there anymore
[16:02] <tgm4883> Does it need updated?
[16:02] <leftyfb> who makes the decision
[16:02] <tgm4883> !wsl
[16:02] <tgm4883> I think it looks fine
[16:03] <tomreyn> ## windows folks will probbal ynot appreciate it.
[16:03] <leftyfb> I feel ##windows shouldn't be lumped in with general support. That's false. #windows should only be used for installation and nothing else
[16:03] <leftyfb> Also, #ubuntu-on-windows is dead
[16:04] <tgm4883> leftyfb: I'd agree with that
[16:06] <pragmaticenigma> I'd agree to support WSL, so long as it's confied to the WSL environment. Like how to run a program/service ... that would easily traverse the Ubuntu/WSL environments. Like config files, package management, etc
[16:07] <leftyfb> bingo
[16:07] <pragmaticenigma> So in the case of NOOB... I'd go as far as helping them run the md5sum command
[16:07] <tgm4883> That seems reasonable
[16:07] <pragmaticenigma> but how to find the file they downloaded in windows... seems harder to explain...
[16:08] <pragmaticenigma> other than to offer them the "cd" command and letting them know that C: => /mnt/c
[16:08] <tgm4883> pragmaticenigma: that also seems reasonable
[16:08] <leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: rm -rf /mnt/c ? ;)
[16:08] <pragmaticenigma> lol
[16:08] <leftyfb> too soon? :)
[16:09] <pragmaticenigma> yeah... leftyfb need to burn the ISO first :-P
[16:09] <leftyfb> ah, right. good call
[16:10] <pragmaticenigma> Believe me when I say, I love to help others. Impatience is one shortcoming I don't handle well, and that honestly is why I was quick to deflect NOOB to the other channel.
[16:11] <pragmaticenigma> This conversation was great to have too... I come away with some better insight, and better ideas for how to continue being helpful, and keeping instep with everyone else
[16:12] <leftyfb> tgm4883: so again, who makes the decisions on how #ubuntu is operated? I'm all for coming away from this conversation being more helpful, but there's the possibility of upsetting others who feel we shouldn't touch WSL with a 10ft pole
[16:15] <tgm4883> leftyfb: IDK, previously I've asked in #ubuntu-ops
[16:16] <leftyfb> ok, so while this conversation was productive, at least with the few of us in agreement, it doesn't make much of a difference unless we get official buy-in from the appropriate parties
[17:17] <oerheks> i like spring
[17:17] <oerheks> .. Win10 spring Update screwed up Grub. https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/8ke0vq/win10_spring_update_screwed_up_grub/
[17:19] <pragmaticenigma> screwed up? nah, I'm guessing MS made a change to their bootloader and didn't bother to check what was written to the MBR
[17:22] <pragmaticenigma> oerheks: claim is UEFI installs are fine though... odd
[17:28] <tomreyn> obviously, windows is a monotheistic religion
[17:30] <pragmaticenigma> what a pane it is too
[17:30]  * pragmaticenigma smirks
[17:31] <tomreyn> :))
[17:47] <ducasse> coming in late to this discussion, but would it be fine to answer a request for help with wsl with "sorry, i can't/won't support that, please hang around and see if someone else can"?
[17:48]  * ducasse is one of the 10ft pole crowd
[17:51] <JimBuntu> I would wait until they start being impatient, otherwise, !patience
[17:54] <ducasse> it's just that i often find myself alone for a while in #ubuntu in the mornings, was just wondering how to handle a wsl user
[17:54] <ducasse> btw, hi JimBuntu :)
[17:54] <JimBuntu> Hey there ducasse. I was surprised by the discussion. A lot to learn from it for me.
[17:56] <ducasse> yep, but i basically want nothing to do with an environment i've never even seen irl. i get that it's ubuntu in a way, but not enough for me :)
[17:57] <leftyfb> it's not "in a way" .. it IS ubuntu
[17:57] <leftyfb> it's the Ubuntu cloud image, same thing they put on all of AWS and what MAAS uses to deploy with
[17:57] <oerheks> not the desktop, but the core..
[17:57] <leftyfb> ducasse: why not help with just the OS part of it if you can? If there's a package or permission problem or the like
[17:57] <leftyfb> right
[17:57] <leftyfb> there's no desktop stuff supported on it
[17:59] <ducasse> leftyfb: possibly, but if things start getting weird i'm dropping it and walking away
[17:59] <ducasse> as in, it doesn't behave like a standard install on a linux kernel would
[18:13] <tgm4883> ducasse: I think that sounds fine, provided that was an actual issue. I would have a problem with saying "I'm not supporting you because you use WSL"
[18:57] <tomreyn> well, i may choose to say so. nothing anyone can do about my preferences. and an individual choosing not to support $something is not against the channel policies, afaik
[18:58] <leftyfb> tomreyn: sure, but there's no reason to answer with the fact that you won't support it. Just let someone else take care of it.
[19:00] <tomreyn> what is the reason not to asnwer that i won't support it then?
[19:01] <tomreyn> i mean, either seems fine to me, unless i'd build a political disucssion around it, which wouldn't beloing to #ubuntu
[19:01] <leftyfb> answering with "I won't help you" helps nobody
[19:02] <tomreyn> right, but answering "I cannot help you with WSL since I don't like to support it", this could help soemone.
[19:02] <tomreyn> that's how i do it for nvidia drivers
[19:03] <leftyfb> how does that help anyone?
[19:03] <leftyfb> it's pretty negative
[19:04] <tomreyn> hmm you think so? i just consider it a statement, an explanation, not negative it all, since it's not personally addressing the user.
[19:05] <SlidingHorn> what differences are there in a WSL ubuntu vs a normal installation?
[19:05] <tomreyn> i think this helps someone in terms of making them wonder whether their choices are good.
[19:05] <leftyfb> SlidingHorn: it's not running the linux kernel. Other than that, none
[19:05] <leftyfb> tomreyn: so the whole purpose is to impose your opinion of a product on the one asking for help with it without providing any help
[19:07] <tomreyn> leftyfb: no, the main purpose would be to at least respond something, explaining why they're not getting any help. i'd just do that if there was no one else responding.
[19:07] <leftyfb> IMO, things like that are best kept to yourself. I'm sure the person asking for help is well aware there are people in existence that do not like/prefer the product they're looking for help with and don't really care to hear there is yet another one right in front of them not willing to help them
[19:08] <tomreyn> you know it happens that people come ot the channel and ask rather specific questions about functionality which no one is really into, or no one likes to support. i think in those situations it's better to provide an explanation to the one asking than not to respond at all.
[19:08] <tomreyn> since people will just feel left out, being ignored.
[19:09] <tomreyn> and i don't like *this* to happen.
[19:09] <leftyfb> I don't see why there's all this hatred towards WSL. I think it's a great gateway solution to getting people to switch. At the very least, someone never switches completely but instead develops linux solutions for the rest of us on their windows machine.
[19:10] <leftyfb> it's a lot better than just ignoring Windows users completely
[19:10] <leftyfb> since they do make up the biggest market for us
[19:11] <tomreyn> i'm just an ubuntu user, i dont have a market. ;)
[19:11] <leftyfb> the community does
[19:14] <tomreyn> let's be positive: let's see how we get along and if you get annoyed or just think i'm doing things wrong you are welcome to point it out.
[19:18] <pragmaticenigma> I would start encouraging WSL helpees to join #ubuntu-on-windows either way... just to help build up that community too
[19:19] <leftyfb> That's not a bad idea. But we'll have to convey the idea that at the moment there's not much of a community
[19:20] <nacc> leftyfb: afaict, no one does what you're suggesting. m$ wants people to use powershell and all that stuff
[19:21] <nacc> leftyfb: but i agree with your sentiment, in principle, that if someone has an ubuntu issue, then it can be resolved in #ubuntu.
[19:21] <nacc> leftyfb: however, the moment they get to something related to the kernel, say, they are in potentially unsupported territory
[19:21] <oerheks> sudo apt install wsl-desktop ... err ... https://github.com/QMonkey/wsl-tutorial
[19:21] <nacc> as I don't believe WSL is virtualizing the cloud image properly, but I genuinely don't know
[19:21] <leftyfb> nacc: in the past 2 days, there's been exactly 2 cases of people using it for docker and to actually verify an ubuntu ISO. Neither of those have anything to do with powershell and one was actually moving to ubuntu
[19:22] <pragmaticenigma> It's not... in fact the number of hoops to enable it right now should tell the average user to just not do it
[19:22] <nacc> leftyfb: the only user who asked about wsl over the past year consistently had bastardized a desktop and requested helper repeatedly for it
[19:22] <leftyfb> nacc: I agree with not supporting the kernel part and anything not having to do with Ubuntu
[19:22] <nacc> (donofrio)
[19:23] <leftyfb> that's a bad example and one that I would agree with not supporting
[19:23] <nacc> the issue will be they will see you supporting something else and will complain (IMO)
[19:23] <nacc> but that's up to the community to resolve anyways
[19:23] <leftyfb> right
[19:24] <leftyfb> and no, it's not virtualizing the cloud image at all. It IS the cloud image running on a "linux compatible kernel interface"
[19:24] <pragmaticenigma> yeah, that is the slippery slope of this ... you cave and help one, then everyone expects the same treatment... rules or otherwise
[19:24] <leftyfb> the kernel is the only thing that's modified from the cloud image
[19:25] <leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: that can easily be managed. Just gotta define what is supported
[19:25] <leftyfb> I would say, anything within the cloud image environment, mainly userland
[19:25] <leftyfb> no installation or kernel level stuff. Certainly nothing desktop/GUI related
[19:26] <leftyfb> networking is fine as long as it's within the OS and nothing to do with whatever layers M$ is providing for it
[19:26] <leftyfb> I would even say, if the image has an ip, that's the end of networking support
[19:35] <leftyfb> it's gonna be great if that was the recovery partition for Windows lol
[19:36] <leftyfb> "hey guys, weird question, but i need to figure out what this 732 MB (windows units) partition is on my drive, from windows" I read this differently
[19:42] <daftykins> sounds like you need a tinfoil hat at the ready for that one
[19:53] <JimBuntu> as I did. I was like "windows" has it's own "units"
[20:08] <SlidingHorn> lol leftyfb