[17:28] <leftyfb> 2018 May 17 14:00:25 *	TortoiseSvn (~root@li1485-226.members.linode.com) has joined #ubuntu
[17:28] <leftyfb> 2018 May 19 13:18:43 <TortoiseSvn>	leftyfb: i know you
[17:28] <leftyfb> 2018 May 19 13:18:59 <TortoiseSvn>	are you the gay furry in the UK?
[18:35] <Flannel> leftyfb: Have you interacted with him before?
[18:37] <leftyfb> Negative. Though why would that matter?
[18:38] <Flannel> I'll talk with him.  But I get the impression that it was a genuine question.
[18:39] <leftyfb> wow
[18:39] <leftyfb> Just wow
[18:40] <Flannel> leftyfb: Obviously he had the wrong guy, but that doesn't mean it was an incendiary question.
[18:40] <Flannel> leftyfb: Like I said, I'll talk with him.
[18:41] <leftyfb> Yeah, it’s obvious when someone asks in a oss support channel if someone else is a gay furry that they’re being sincere. You’re right.
[18:42] <Flannel> leftyfb: We get lots of "Oh hey, are you [so and so] from [random other place]?"
[18:43] <Flannel> leftyfb: It's a big channel, full of all kinds of people.  Some non-FOSS related mixing is bound to happen.
[18:43] <leftyfb> Unbelievable
[18:43] <Flannel> leftyfb: Like I said, obviously he has the wrong guy, but nothing in those words makes me think he's "accusing" you of being those things.
[18:44] <Flannel> Well, his most recent stuff in #u makes me think otherwise.
[18:44] <Flannel> leftyfb: I saw it, but I was talking with you in here.
 Goodbye leftyfb i hope you find your hot fox or panda furry lover soon
 leftyfb: dont be afraid of who you are.
[18:45] <leftyfb> good job
[18:45] <leftyfb> ya think?
[18:45] <Flannel> leftyfb: First off, we don't go around banning/kicking people because we think they might be trouble makers.
[18:45] <leftyfb> I've noticed
[18:45] <Flannel> leftyfb: And that's the correct thing to do.
[18:45] <leftyfb> then what is your purpose exactly?
[18:46] <Flannel> leftyfb: If you don't like it, find another community.
[18:46] <Flannel> leftyfb: That has ALWAYS been #ubuntu-*'s policy.
[18:46] <leftyfb> where is this written?
[18:46] <leftyfb> what is the purpose of the ops in #ubuntu?
[18:49] <Flannel> leftyfb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines
[18:50] <leftyfb> " If someone is abusive, warn them. If someone won't learn or gets aggressive, remove them from the chat. "
[18:50] <Flannel> Yes, that is on that page.
[18:50] <leftyfb> "Someone who comes back after a kick and continues misbehaving: ban"
[18:50] <leftyfb> "Trolling: ban
[18:50] <leftyfb> "
[18:50] <Flannel> leftyfb: Right.
[18:50] <leftyfb> "Personal attacks against people: ban"
[18:51] <leftyfb> all of these are completely ignored
[18:51] <Flannel> leftyfb: What about "I know you" and "are you [so and so]"? is any of the above?
[18:52] <leftyfb> If you can't see through that completely obvious trolling, then you really have no business being an op. Seriously. That's very ignorant and downright negligent of your position and role according to your own guidelines.
[18:52] <Flannel> leftyfb: What in those words is trolling?
[18:53] <Flannel> leftyfb: I *agree* that he proved himself to be a trouble maker.  But that was after the fact.  What in those few words gave actual evidence?
[18:54] <leftyfb> When someone asks in an IRC support channel for a linux distribution if they are a gay furry, that is 100% trolling. To think otherwise is just astounding.
[18:54] <Flannel> leftyfb: I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few furries, and I know we have some gay people, in the Ubuntu community.  So I'm not sure I follow.
[18:55] <leftyfb> Then you are completely oblivious to trolling. Again, you have no business being in your position.
[18:56] <Flannel> leftyfb: That's why I asked if you had any previous interactions.
[18:56] <leftyfb> This isn't the first time either. I report trolls violating your guidelines all the time and the majority of the time, not only is nothing done, but I'm attacked as being the problem.
[18:56] <Flannel> leftyfb: Because if you and this guy had a history, I'd take a different approach when talking to him.
[18:58] <leftyfb> as usual, like talking to a brick wall
[18:58] <Flannel> leftyfb: This attitude *is* a problem.  You can't be so quick to condemn people.  Freenode has this thing called catalyzing.  People should be catalyzing with people to try to get them to behave before any operator stuff happens.
[19:06] <hggdh> @login
[19:06] <hggdh> @btlogin
[19:25] <leftyfb> Flannel: what is there to discuss? Have the ops had a meeting and have decided to start enforcing their guidelines and are going to discontinue discouraging the community to report violators?
[19:25] <tsimonq2> or/
[19:25] <tsimonq2> grr
[19:27] <Flannel> leftyfb: We always encourage reporting problems.  That said, freenode believes in catalyzing.  You should be engaging people first, because most of the time, they aren't trying to cause trouble, and are only confused/new/frustrated.  Once after engaging them do we break out the operator stuff.
[19:27] <leftyfb> incorrect
[19:27] <Flannel> If you're not comfortable engaging them, that's fine, we encourage you to come here and let us know, and *we* will try to catalyze.
[19:28] <Flannel> Your first course of action, for most of the situations, shouldn't be to use the !ops trigger.  Which is really designed for emergencies.  In non-emergencies, you can just join here and point the problem out to us.
[19:28] <Flannel> Unfortunately, we can't always have our eyes in #ubuntu.
[19:29] <leftyfb> That is just plain stupid
[19:29] <Flannel> So we do encourage and happily accept your help in that regard.
[19:29] <Flannel> leftyfb: Which part?
[19:29] <leftyfb> incorrect
[19:30] <leftyfb> We ask trolls to leave. We ask them to stop. We get called names. We report them. Nothing gets done. We come here and we get told to ignore the trolls. Don't engage them. They'll go away on their own. All the while they're disrupting legitimate support.
[19:30] <Flannel> leftyfb: I believe you're referring to a recent situation with one particular person.  Not "people in general".
[19:31] <leftyfb> I'm referring to multiple cases over the course of months.
[19:31] <leftyfb> with multiple ops
[19:31] <Flannel> There will always be special cases, and we could go on forever about those, so lets stick to general concepts.
[19:32] <leftyfb> the majority of the time, I get called out as being toxic and making the matters worse
[19:32] <Flannel> leftyfb: I'm not aware of those multiple cases.
[19:32] <leftyfb> There's ALWAYS special cases. Each and every time anyone has reported anything it's been non-productive and discouraged
[19:32] <leftyfb> This is a regularly occurring problem
[19:32] <Flannel> leftyfb: So what I'm going to encourage you to do is make use of the appeals process when you feel like things aren't going right.
[19:33] <Flannel> That way the IRCC will have visibility and if we're back to this same place in a month, there's a record of these.
[19:33] <Flannel> Like I said, I only know of that one guy recently, so I can't speak to multiple times over the course of months.
[19:34] <leftyfb> What is the appeals process? And what am I appealing? ops not doing their job?
[19:34] <Flannel> Yeah.
[19:35] <leftyfb> Flannel: I've applied to become an op. I am in #ubuntu all day and night and can be pretty responsive at almost all hours if need be. I've received no reply or confirmation.
[19:35] <Flannel> Basically you come in here to discuss the actions with a third party, and if you're not satisfied with that, you escalate to the IRCC.
[19:36] <Flannel> The easiest way to do that is #ubuntu-irc-council, but there's also a mailing list for them.
[19:36] <Flannel> leftyfb: but again, the first step is to come here and discuss the situation with an operator
[19:37] <leftyfb> Flannel: i've been doing that for a long time now and the majority of the time nothing is done and I get reprimanded in different ways
[19:38] <Flannel> leftyfb: If you're being repremanded for doing what you should be doing, the IRCC is very interested in that.  Because that absolutely shouldn't be happening.
[19:38] <Flannel> leftyfb: But remember, freenode believes in catalyzing, so rarely is the "first step" of any situation going to be a kick/ban.
[19:39] <Flannel> Just because someone didn't get banned doesn't mean the operators are doing nothing.
[19:39] <leftyfb> You cannot "catalyze" trolls.
[19:39] <leftyfb> And again, I have seen operators "warn" someone MANY times and still not doing anything
[19:39] <Flannel> I generally agree, but I also know that people get in the habit of labelling everyone who sneezes the wrong direction a "troll" in 5ms.
[19:40] <leftyfb> I've been managing IRC channels for over 20 years. I know the difference
[19:40] <Flannel> It's easy to fall into a "everyone is a trouble maker" attitude after a while.  One has to constantly and consciously work against it.
[19:40] <leftyfb> 24 years to be exact
[19:40] <Flannel> In fact, that's explicitly mentioned in the Guidelines as well: "After staying in #ubuntu for a while, ops tend to get a bit trigger-happy. Don't forget that accidents do happen. Please don't put too severe punishments on accidental mishaps."
[19:42] <Flannel> leftyfb: Unfortunately, we don't believe in operating based on hunches alone.  Thoughtcrime isn't a thing.  So we can only work off of actual behavior.
[19:43] <Flannel> and yeah, we all have concerns about people at times.  Some of them prove to be true, others turn out wrong.  We can't just ban people immediately.
[19:43] <Flannel> While that would make #ubuntu peaceful, it would also make #ubuntu useless and not welcoming.
[19:46] <Flannel> It's also easy to forget that #ubuntu is full of people from all over the world, with a variety of backgrounds and value systems.  Sometimes people come off as brash, but in many cases it turns out to just be cultural or a language issue.  Text isn't the most expressive medium, especially if you're not a native speaker.
[19:47] <leftyfb> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/
[19:47] <leftyfb> oops
[19:48] <leftyfb> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/KBqXWqwzQc/
[19:48] <leftyfb> what about that?
[19:48] <leftyfb> I've reported that multiple times, zero response
[19:49] <leftyfb> they've been told every time to stop posting garbage in the channel
[19:49] <leftyfb> what I pasted in everything every nick starting with u0_a... has ever said
[19:49] <leftyfb> none of it is legitimate
[19:50] <leftyfb> and it's constant
[19:50] <Flannel> That's over the course of many months.
[19:50] <Flannel> leftyfb: Some of those have garbage, many of them are literally just saying hi.
[19:52] <Flannel> leftyfb: Are you proposing we ban u0_a* because of 20 garbage lines over the course of five months?
[19:53] <leftyfb> yes, because that is ALL that has ever come from the person
[19:53] <Flannel> I'm not sure it's even the same person.
[19:53] <krytarik> I'm pretty sure it's not.
[19:53] <Flannel> I expect it's a default client and/or some sort of class.
[19:53] <Flannel> Back in the day, we'd have tons of ubuntu* nicked people, because that was default for some client.
[19:54] <Flannel> but lets assume it is the same person.
[19:55] <Flannel> Has anyone ever had an actual conversation with them?  I'm sure there was SOME interaction that just wasn't picked up in your grep, but I don't mean "stop that", I mean an actual "hi, you're obviously new, please don't post random junk to #ubuntu" etc etc.
[19:56] <Flannel> If someone doesn't know it's not acceptable to post random things to an IRC channel, can you really fault them for doing it?
[19:56] <leftyfb> 2018 May 19 04:03:40 <cfhowlett>	u0_a397, do you have an ubuntu support question?  ask it.
[19:57] <Flannel> that's even worse than the "stop it", because in that case, you're assuming they're going to understand that if you're asking for a support question, that precludes random chatter.
[19:57] <Flannel> AND you're not even managing to tell them to "stop it", so even if they did post a support question, the NEXT time they come in, they don't know any better.
[19:58] <Flannel> And I won't even get into how unwelcoming it sounds.
[19:58] <Flannel> I mean, not actually unwelcoming, but if you're trying to fix behavior, that's not the way to go about it.
[19:58] <leftyfb> see what I mean
[19:59] <leftyfb> we have this problem, we try to address the problem and the problem becomes us
[19:59] <Flannel> and again, it's obvious looking at this that english is NOT their first language, so nuance isn't something you can count on.
[19:59] <Flannel> leftyfb: I agree that I'd prefer this person to stop doing this random stuff.  We agree with that.
[19:59] <Flannel> (and again, we'll assume it's the same person)
[20:00] <Flannel> leftyfb: What I don't agree with is that ANYTHING has actually been done to catalyze this person into the "right" behavior.
[20:00] <Flannel> leftyfb: Do you think this u0_a* person is a troll?
[20:00] <leftyfb> yep .. one that doesn't speak English very well
[20:00] <Flannel> ok.
[20:00] <Flannel> leftyfb: seriously?
[20:01] <leftyfb> no matter what language, if you're constantly joining a channel and posting garbage (it's not valid text in any language), then you are doing it on purpose. You've been told many times to stop yet you keep doing it. That is repeat abusive behavior
[20:01] <Flannel> ok.
[20:01] <Flannel> Alright, I'm glad I'm not misunderstanding you.
[20:02] <Flannel> Becauase if you honestly believe that person is a troll, I hope you *never* *ever* have operator privledges in *any* ubuntu-related channel.
[20:02] <Flannel> Well, let me back that up a little.
[20:02] <Flannel> If you change your attitude, then I'd be willing to give you another chance.
[20:02] <Flannel> so, with your CURRENT attitude, I hope you never, ever have operator privledges anywhere.
[20:02] <Flannel> leftyfb: You need to stop being so jaded.
[20:03] <Flannel> You also need to remember that FOSS is built on the core concept of "assume good faith"
[20:03] <leftyfb> so let me get this straight
[20:03] <Flannel> When you have ZERO information about someone, you need to give them the benefit of the doubt, because MOST people are here and participating for the right reasons.
[20:04] <leftyfb> someone is posting garbage (not another language). Been asked to stop many times over the course of days/weeks. Doesn't stop. And this is ok? This should go unchecked?
[20:04] <leftyfb> I am not reposting most people. Only the obvious trolls
[20:04] <leftyfb> obvious to someone who knows how to spot a troll
[20:05] <leftyfb> That is obviously not you
[20:05] <krytarik> I would seem the 'u0_a*'s are Android user IDs btw.
[20:05] <Flannel> leftyfb: When we started, I had assumed all of the things I had heard about you were just a situation of you wanted action to happen 20% sooner than it was.  And I figured maybe that caused everyone to behave 10% slower.
[20:06] <Flannel> Because that evens it out.  You hear about things earlier than you ought to, so you back off a little to make things back to normal.
[20:06] <Flannel> I didn't realize that you need a major attitude adjustment.
[20:06] <Flannel> krytarik: Thanks for hunting that down
[20:07] <leftyfb> very well then
[20:07] <leftyfb> I'll keep reporting ops
[20:07] <Flannel> leftyfb: and we appreciate that.
[20:07] <leftyfb> you guys keep doing nothing about it
[20:07] <leftyfb> got it