=== sorinello1 is now known as sorinello [05:20] sorinello: I am not aware of one, no. [06:24] Unit193, should I pastebin pe syslog file ? [06:54] I won't be able to get to it any time soon. [06:55] hi [06:56] hello [07:09] hello [08:15] what are your doing? [08:22] hmm. [11:15] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screensaver-0-1-3-released-tp52174.html (by Sean Davis-6) [14:49] Unit193, I have saved it locally, when/if you will want to give a look, I can pastebin the file. [15:13] Canonical IS has pad.ubuntu.com on their decommissioning list and they're trying to determine who all is using it, I let them know that we do, but we should start thinking of alternatives in case they do decide to get rid of it [15:14] hopefully now that they know we're using it, at the very least they'd let us know so we can make backups of things /o\ [16:44] pleia2: yeah, would be a shame if they remove it. otherwise we can try to go with some other open etherpad... but the nice part was openid auth [16:56] * pleia2 nods === brainwash_ is now known as brainwash [21:01] * flocculant double checks times and UTC === guiver_d is now known as guiverc [21:34] !team | half an hourish for tonight's meeting [21:34] half an hourish for tonight's meeting: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193 [21:53] * bluesabre waves [21:53] evening :) [21:53] evening flocculant [21:53] at least you adn I then [21:58] * ochosi is here against all odds [21:58] woohoo! [21:58] I could say the same... with DST changes, this time is actually when I normally get off work [21:58] timezones ... [22:00] !meeting [22:00] Next scheduled Xubuntu community meeting and the agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [22:00] so - other than bluesabre and ochosi =- anyone else about? [22:00] (#startmeeting?) [22:01] that's how often I do it :D [22:01] #startmeeting [22:01] Meeting started Fri Nov 23 22:01:07 2018 UTC. The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [22:01] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [22:01] :) [22:01] windered where the bot got to :D [22:01] that was my contribution, good to go now [22:01] :D [22:01] * flocculant ponders things to see if anyone else shows up [22:02] do we have a clear agenda? [22:02] yea [22:02] it's about 10 yards long [22:02] kewl, sry, i'm lagging a bit behind [22:03] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings [22:03] trying to fix a few xfce panel bugs meanwhile [22:03] k [22:03] no open action items i guess [22:03] regarding updates and announcements, only from upstream from my side [22:03] okey doke - so [22:04] #topic Open action items [22:04] all done [22:04] #topic Updates/Announcements [22:04] ochosi has none [22:04] neither do I [22:04] bluesabre ? [22:04] well depends, if you're interested in upstream xfce updates i can mention some stuff [22:05] and i guess bluesabre wants to mention his recent screensaver release [22:05] I'd guess so [22:05] Sure [22:06] #info xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released, https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2018-November/000651.html, more on this later [22:06] saw that one - where is it :p [22:06] Somewhere [22:06] :D [22:06] Not packaged yet, I think [22:06] ack [22:07] #info new development release of xfce-panel coming up soon, quite a few fixes since the previous version already [22:07] But it's a good one ;) [22:07] re these updates - we only have 1 up to date dev ppa - will verything get there? [22:07] #info "primary display" support added to xfdesktop (which pretty much completes the feature in xfce) https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2018/11/12/adventures-in-primary-display-land/ [22:08] flocculant: yup :) [22:09] anything else? [22:09] nothing from me [22:09] my life has been a screensaver for the last several weeks [22:09] mine has been for 13 years ... [22:09] * bluesabre waggles the mouse [22:10] anyway - let's move swiftly along then :) [22:10] that's it from me too [22:10] #topic Discussions [22:11] #subtopic £" bit [22:11] sigh [22:11] #undo [22:11] Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC [22:11] :) [22:11] #subtopic 32 Bit [22:12] so - given than we've now got no upgrades from 32 bit of any real use - I propose we finally kill this off [22:12] related, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LibreOffice-6.2-Beta-1 LibreOffice 6.2 deprecates 32-bit builds [22:12] and that won't help [22:13] nope [22:13] I think we should do a mailing list team vote on this one [22:13] I agree. [22:14] ochosi: ? [22:14] yeah [22:14] agreed [22:15] (both, the killing off and the ML) [22:15] if the ML yields no relevant/clear results, we can take it to the council to decide [22:15] #action flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit [22:15] ACTION: flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit [22:16] #subtopic Minimal Install for Core-like experience [22:16] * flocculant lets bluesabre have a warble [22:17] So, with the addition of the minimal install option on the ISO, there's more resistance than ever to approve and merge our patches to make Xubuntu Core official... [22:18] :/ [22:18] ... and there's basically a single person that is the gatekeeper of that now, so meh [22:18] this has been going on for far too long anyway [22:18] Yup [22:18] right [22:18] So I propose, we go the alternative route and add the minimal install option that the other flavors and main have opted for [22:19] Same disk image, but with the option to install a subset of the packages [22:19] yea - from memory it's not quite the same - just a bunch of blacklisting? [22:19] (technically it installs all the packages, then removes, but whatever) [22:20] urgh [22:20] mmm [22:20] so it really misses the point of a minimal install from my pov [22:20] ochosi: I'd agree [22:20] that's like passing an apt-get remove shell-script when you first start your session [22:20] Yup [22:21] if the iso isn't smaller and the diskspace needed to complete the installation successfully, what's the point? [22:21] (a nor is missing there) [22:22] so while i usually agree with you, i'm not sure this helps people a lot bluesabre [22:22] Just starting out with fewer installed packages. The diskspace savings is probably not substantial enough that it would be a different disk or partition, so that's not really the concern. [22:22] well [22:22] Indeed. [22:22] for those people that want a minimal setup - the work's done for them? [22:23] Yeah [22:23] It's the core experience once the install's done [22:23] still feels misleading to call that minimal, but i guess if people are used to this from the other flavors... [22:23] And it means 1 or 2 ISOs to test instead of 2 or 4 [22:23] not getting drawn into that one ... [22:24] :D [22:24] anyway - given there are just us - mailing list? [22:24] So yeah, probably another thing to send off for vote. [22:24] yeah, probably [22:24] although the benefit needs to be clarified from my pov [22:24] yea [22:24] we get potentially more stuff to test [22:25] #chair bluesabre [22:25] Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant [22:25] * bluesabre sits [22:25] so you can do stuff [22:25] and users get a minimal setup, but only after providing enough diskspace [22:25] #chair ochosi [22:25] Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant ochosi [22:25] * ochosi bows [22:25] cos how can ignore ochosi :) [22:25] who even [22:25] #action bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option [22:25] ACTION: bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option [22:26] #subtopic Orage [22:26] there's been some talk in channel about this [22:26] Anything beyond "I don't use that"? [22:26] with some people not even sure we seeded it still :p [22:27] hehe [22:27] well i'm all for dropping it [22:27] I love orage [22:27] ^^ was ochosi I think :) [22:27] rly? [22:27] how else would I get 4 timezones in my panel? [22:27] pleia2: well it's good to hear ppl disagreeing, because i have a very clear opinion on it... [22:27] ochosi: I thought so ? [22:28] anyway [22:28] pleia2: wait, that's it..? the regular panel clock plugin can do that too... [22:28] the regular clock app has gotten better, I guess [22:28] I'm not all that worried either way - but if there are dev reasons to drop it [22:28] i thought you were using the ical stuff [22:28] didn't use to allow you to do some of the custom things, but now that it does maybe I'll give it a chance and report back ;) [22:29] the ical support (with an incredibly crappy UI) and the unmaintained codebase is all orage has over the regular clock plugin [22:29] the clock plugin even has a format validator now ;) [22:29] anyway, if you find a feature (apart from ical) that is in orage but not the clock lemme know [22:29] actually, clock seems to do what I need now :) [22:30] carry on! [22:30] :) [22:30] :) [22:30] we should warn people though (release notes?) in case they're in my boat [22:30] so i'd like to propose to drop orage from our default install [22:30] we can keep it in the repos as a package, but just not install it by default [22:30] sgtm [22:30] pleia2: if they have it installed and upgrade it'll be retained anyway [22:30] yeah [22:30] so not sure what to warn people about [22:31] apart from "Warning: The regular clock plugin can do anything you did with orage before!" [22:31] lol [22:31] when I do a new install I automatically was using orage [22:31] would it not just be in the release notes - this 'package' not there anymore [22:31] ? [22:31] (yes) [22:31] yup [22:31] ochosi: that's fine :) [22:32] so if people used it - they'd read the notes (of course) then install it [22:32] yup [22:32] yeah [22:32] * flocculant wasn't at all sarcastic [22:32] :P [22:32] thing is, i'd rather not ship stuff by default that is unmaintained [22:32] yeah [22:32] (last release 4yrs ago) [22:32] agreed [22:32] and we're almost quorum [22:32] sigh [22:33] plus, it's one of the few remaining gtk2 plugins in xfce [22:33] Suppose I could address that [22:33] but isn't Orage a calendar application? [22:34] brainwash: yes, but a rather bad one [22:35] so, maybe there is a need for a replacement [22:35] partly because it uses the (unmaintained) gtkcalendar widget that really doesn't work well for calendars [22:36] doesn't thunderbird partly do that? [22:37] it could be that an offline calendar is not needed anymore [22:37] (doesn't use desktop calendars or mail clients in ages) [22:37] We can take it to vote, and if we drop, it can be restored based on user feedback [22:37] yeah [22:37] shall we perhaps do a quick vote on this now - and then push that to ml for people to ignore? [22:37] bluesabre: right [22:37] thunderbird's lightning plugin is not installed by default, but reasonably could be [22:38] I used that once upon a time [22:38] it was painful - though it was some time ago [22:38] woot [22:38] oops [22:38] :D [22:38] so vote here now - or just ml it? [22:38] personally i'd only go for alternatives if ppl ask for it [22:38] maybe it's really not needed [22:38] yup [22:38] i'd vote here [22:39] #voters flocculant bluesabre ochosi pleia2 [22:39] Current voters: bluesabre flocculant ochosi pleia2 [22:40] #vote Remove Orage from seed [22:40] Please vote on: Remove Orage from seed [22:40] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [22:40] +1 [22:40] +1 received from bluesabre [22:40] +1 [22:40] +1 received from flocculant [22:40] +1 [22:40] +1 received from ochosi [22:41] pleia2: ? [22:42] +1 [22:42] +1 received from pleia2 [22:42] #endvote [22:42] Voting ended on: Remove Orage from seed [22:42] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [22:42] Motion carried [22:42] do we go with that then - or carry it over to ml [22:43] i'd inform ppl on the ML [22:43] we'll at least see if there is a big outcry that way [22:43] #action flocculant to note to ml [22:43] ACTION: flocculant to note to ml [22:43] #subtopic Add Apturl to seed [22:44] this is something I always wondered about [22:44] yeah, i'd say why not? [22:44] I think Unit193 had some reservations about it [22:44] Doesn't seem like it would hurt, and would generally improve user experience [22:44] mmh [22:45] * flocculant check the pad [22:46] wasn't there - maybe it was in channel. something about being out of sync with debian ? [22:46] p'raps [22:46] bluesabre: would that sound right? [22:47] It'd just be a part of our seed. I think Unit193 had some reservations, but wasn't specific. [22:47] mmm [22:47] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL for folks reading along [22:47] yeah, i read that a few mins ago [22:47] i felt it's unproblematic [22:48] Could be used in our docs too if we wanted [22:48] well - I'd like to get as many things dealt with tonight as possible, but if someone in team had reservations I think we should take it to ml [22:48] ? thoughts [22:48] Agreed [22:48] k [22:49] #action flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed [22:49] ACTION: flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed [22:49] #subtopic Adding GIMP to seed [22:49] from my pov - we took this out because space [22:49] yeah [22:49] we now have space - I'd just add it back [22:50] +1 [22:50] We shipped GIMP in Xubuntu until Wily Werewolf due to space concerns [22:50] i always install gimp [22:50] it's one of the first things I install [22:50] Same [22:50] Probably the same for a lot of folks [22:50] It's pretty ubiquitous [22:50] so I would do vote as before and report to list [22:50] bluesabre: wow, you still remember when we removed it..? holy crap! [22:50] ochosi: had to research that recently [22:50] oh ok :) [22:50] I don't remember when - I do remember us doing it [22:50] * bluesabre has had a simmering rage since Wily [22:50] #vote Add Gimp to seed [22:50] Please vote on: Add Gimp to seed [22:50] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [22:51] +1 [22:51] +1 received from bluesabre [22:51] +1 [22:51] +1 received from flocculant [22:51] +1 [22:51] +1 received from pleia2 [22:51] +1 [22:51] +1 received from ochosi [22:52] #endvote [22:52] Voting ended on: Add Gimp to seed [22:52] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [22:52] Motion carried [22:52] #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to see [22:52] #undo [22:52] Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC [22:52] #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to seed [22:52] this was me [22:53] hm, i mean i install it too by default now, but only because i need it at work [22:53] at home i really never open impress [22:53] I always install that too [22:53] given that we no longer are quite so worried about seed size - I'd like to add this in with the other Libreoffice things we do - seems silly to not have it [22:53] but i can imagine many ppl need it [22:54] I have no complaints about including it, and folks have asked for it for years [22:54] flocculant: any clue how much space it adds approx? [22:54] ochosi: adding it to live session > https://pasteboard.co/HMojyQ9.png [22:54] right, that seems ok [22:54] I did that a while back when I added it to the pad [22:55] I got lost near Haytor in the fog [22:55] oops [22:55] :D [22:55] oh, you did? :D [22:55] hehe [22:55] or did you get lost in all your channel tabs..? [22:55] * flocculant spits tea at the screen - again [22:56] ochosi: :p [22:56] it seems to pull in libreoffice draw also [22:56] a wild knome suddenly appears [N/E/S/W]? [22:56] brainwash: yea [22:56] knome: oh wow, now we have to take all the votes again :'D [22:56] nah [22:56] we can really get things done now [22:56] as long as you make ML threads i can just disagree with you there ;) [22:56] is Draw needed? [22:57] not sure if adding it to the seed also installs all recommends [22:57] but apt does that by default now [22:57] (in ubuntu) [22:57] brainwash: not sure - didn't dig that far [22:57] meh draw [22:57] doesn't draw bring in all the (surprise) drawing stuff like vectors? [22:57] brainwash: yes, https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/libreoffice-impress [22:58] I think because people embed draw things in impress slides [22:58] yes [22:59] "Design powerful and intuitive flowcharts with Draw." [22:59] looks useful [22:59] if everybody else ships draw with impress, wouldn't it potentially create one of those "but xubuntu is worse because even drawing stuff doesn't work!" -like sentiments [22:59] right [23:00] if we have space/motivation to bring in impress, bring in draw as well [23:00] yeah [23:00] * flocculant makes note not to add knome to voter list - because interminable talking :D [23:00] it's a package depend, impress brings it without question [23:00] #voters knome [23:00] Current voters: bluesabre flocculant knome ochosi pleia2 [23:00] ;)= [23:00] brainwash: it's the visio counterpart [23:00] bluesabre, unless we blacklist it :P [23:00] does that work for depends? [23:00] but yes, i wasn't advocating for that anyway [23:01] i have no idea, let's not figure out? [23:01] fine [23:01] * bluesabre breaks something else [23:01] woohoo! [23:01] good chap [23:01] so, this would result in having the full libreoffice suite installed I'd think [23:01] no base? [23:02] the database thing [23:02] ohh [23:02] yeah, don't need that [23:02] :D [23:02] or is it pulled by something [23:02] yea - it doesn't add the database - just whats in the screenie [23:04] let's vote? [23:04] * bluesabre votes to vote [23:04] sure. [23:05] #vote Add LibreOffice Impress to seed [23:05] Please vote on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed [23:05] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname) [23:05] +1 [23:05] +1 received from flocculant [23:05] +0 [23:05] +0 received from knome [23:05] +1 [23:05] +1 received from pleia2 [23:05] +1 [23:05] +1 received from bluesabre [23:05] +1 [23:05] +1 received from ochosi [23:06] it's so great to have knome around for the voting [23:06] i know... [23:06] :D [23:06] even when he abstains :| [23:06] (meant to be :P) [23:06] better the devil you know [23:07] #endvote [23:07] Voting ended on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed [23:07] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1 [23:07] Motion carried [23:07] uhm, gnome software, oh noes [23:07] #subtopic Status update on GNOME Software / alternatives? [23:07] so [23:07] so [23:07] I hate this still [23:07] i think gnome software isn't great, but the alternatives also aren't [23:07] and still refuse to use it :p [23:07] synaptic is still unmaintained [23:07] synaptic works fine - it's just not pretty - and I don't buy stuff [23:07] and unchanged [23:08] but it's still around [23:08] better maintained than before I believe [23:08] knome: orage is also still around :p [23:08] but synaptic works, right? :P [23:08] it does [23:08] yep [23:08] and sometimes gnome-software does not [23:08] gnome-software has snaps and firmware updates [23:08] that's pretty nice [23:08] it does have that going for it [23:08] I did look for the mate one - but I think that's now a snap [23:09] i really really don't like gnome-software (that's to say, i don't hate it either, but i don't like it), but i don't use even synaptic any more, so... [23:09] bluesabre: and it uses appdata, another plus [23:09] had to patch for that recently, after folks removed exo and killed their xfce [23:10] I don't think we're going to get very far with this discussion [23:10] again [23:10]