[05:20] <Unit193> sorinello: I am not aware of one, no.
[06:24] <sorinello> Unit193, should I pastebin pe syslog file ?
[06:54] <Unit193> I won't be able to get to it any time soon.
[06:55] <tracker6> hi
[06:56] <tracker6> hello
[07:09] <knome> hello
[08:15] <tracker6> what are your doing?
[08:22] <knome> hmm.
[11:15] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screensaver-0-1-3-released-tp52174.html (by Sean Davis-6)
[14:49] <sorinello> Unit193, I have saved it locally, when/if you will want to give a look, I can pastebin the file.
[15:13] <pleia2> Canonical IS has pad.ubuntu.com on their decommissioning list and they're trying to determine who all is using it, I let them know that we do, but we should start thinking of alternatives in case they do decide to get rid of it
[15:14] <pleia2> hopefully now that they know we're using it, at the very least they'd let us know so we can make backups of things /o\
[16:44] <ochosi> pleia2: yeah, would be a shame if they remove it. otherwise we can try to go with some other open etherpad... but the nice part was openid auth
[16:56]  * pleia2 nods
[21:01]  * flocculant double checks times and UTC 
[21:34] <flocculant> !team | half an hourish for tonight's meeting
[21:53]  * bluesabre waves
[21:53] <flocculant> evening :)
[21:53] <bluesabre> evening flocculant 
[21:53] <flocculant> at least you adn I then 
[21:58]  * ochosi is here against all odds
[21:58] <bluesabre> woohoo!
[21:58] <bluesabre> I could say the same... with DST changes, this time is actually when I normally get off work
[21:58] <flocculant> timezones ...
[22:00] <flocculant> !meeting
[22:00] <flocculant> so - other than bluesabre and ochosi =- anyone else about?
[22:00] <bluesabre> (#startmeeting?)
[22:01] <flocculant> that's how often I do it :D
[22:01] <flocculant> #startmeeting
[22:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 23 22:01:07 2018 UTC.  The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[22:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:01] <bluesabre> :)
[22:01] <flocculant> windered where the bot got  to :D
[22:01] <bluesabre> that was my contribution, good to go now
[22:01] <bluesabre> :D
[22:01]  * flocculant ponders things to see if anyone else shows up 
[22:02] <ochosi> do we have a clear agenda?
[22:02] <flocculant> yea 
[22:02] <flocculant> it's about 10 yards long 
[22:02] <ochosi> kewl, sry, i'm lagging a bit behind
[22:03] <flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[22:03] <ochosi> trying to fix a few xfce panel bugs meanwhile
[22:03] <ochosi> k
[22:03] <ochosi> no open action items i guess
[22:03] <ochosi> regarding updates and announcements, only from upstream from my side
[22:03] <flocculant> okey doke - so 
[22:04] <flocculant> #topic Open action items
[22:04] <flocculant> all done 
[22:04] <flocculant> #topic Updates/Announcements
[22:04] <flocculant> ochosi has none
[22:04] <flocculant> neither do I 
[22:04] <flocculant> bluesabre ?
[22:04] <ochosi> well depends, if you're interested in upstream xfce updates i can mention some stuff
[22:05] <ochosi> and i guess bluesabre wants to mention his recent screensaver release
[22:05] <flocculant> I'd guess so
[22:05] <bluesabre> Sure
[22:06] <bluesabre> #info xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released, https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2018-November/000651.html, more on this later
[22:06] <flocculant> saw that one - where is it :p
[22:06] <bluesabre> Somewhere
[22:06] <flocculant> :D
[22:06] <bluesabre> Not packaged yet, I think
[22:06] <flocculant> ack
[22:07] <ochosi> #info new development release of xfce-panel coming up soon, quite a few fixes since the previous version already
[22:07] <bluesabre> But it's a good one ;)
[22:07] <flocculant> re these updates - we only have 1 up to date dev ppa - will verything get there?
[22:07] <ochosi> #info "primary display" support added to xfdesktop (which pretty much completes the feature in xfce) https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2018/11/12/adventures-in-primary-display-land/
[22:08] <bluesabre> flocculant: yup :)
[22:09] <flocculant> anything else?
[22:09] <bluesabre> nothing from me
[22:09] <bluesabre> my life has been a screensaver for the last several weeks
[22:09] <flocculant> mine has been for 13 years ...
[22:09]  * bluesabre waggles the mouse
[22:10] <flocculant> anyway - let's move swiftly along then :)
[22:10] <ochosi> that's it from me too
[22:10] <flocculant> #topic Discussions
[22:11] <flocculant> #subtopic £" bit
[22:11] <flocculant> sigh
[22:11] <flocculant> #undo
[22:11] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
[22:11] <bluesabre> :)
[22:11] <flocculant> #subtopic 32 Bit
[22:12] <flocculant> so - given than we've now got no upgrades from 32 bit of any real use - I propose we finally kill this off
[22:12] <bluesabre> related, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LibreOffice-6.2-Beta-1 LibreOffice 6.2 deprecates 32-bit builds
[22:12] <flocculant> and that won't help 
[22:13] <bluesabre> nope
[22:13] <flocculant> I think we should do a mailing list team vote on this one
[22:13] <bluesabre> I agree.
[22:14] <flocculant> ochosi: ?
[22:14] <ochosi> yeah
[22:14] <ochosi> agreed
[22:15] <ochosi> (both, the killing off and the ML)
[22:15] <ochosi> if the ML yields no relevant/clear results, we can take it to the council to decide
[22:15] <flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit
[22:15] <meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit
[22:16] <flocculant> #subtopic Minimal Install for Core-like experience 
[22:16]  * flocculant lets bluesabre have a warble 
[22:17] <bluesabre> So, with the addition of the minimal install option on the ISO, there's more resistance than ever to approve and merge our patches to make Xubuntu Core official... 
[22:18] <ochosi> :/
[22:18] <bluesabre> ... and there's basically a single person that is the gatekeeper of that now, so meh
[22:18] <ochosi> this has been going on for far too long anyway
[22:18] <bluesabre> Yup
[22:18] <flocculant> right
[22:18] <bluesabre> So I propose, we go the alternative route and add the minimal install option that the other flavors and main have opted for
[22:19] <bluesabre> Same disk image, but with the option to install a subset of the packages
[22:19] <flocculant> yea - from memory it's not quite the same - just a bunch of blacklisting?
[22:19] <bluesabre> (technically it installs all the packages, then removes, but whatever)
[22:20] <ochosi> urgh
[22:20] <flocculant> mmm
[22:20] <ochosi> so it really misses the point of a minimal install from my pov
[22:20] <flocculant> ochosi: I'd agree
[22:20] <ochosi> that's like passing an apt-get remove shell-script when you first start your session
[22:20] <bluesabre> Yup
[22:21] <ochosi> if the iso isn't smaller and the diskspace needed to complete the installation successfully, what's the point?
[22:21] <ochosi> (a nor is missing there)
[22:22] <ochosi> so while i usually agree with you, i'm not sure this helps people a lot bluesabre 
[22:22] <bluesabre> Just starting out with fewer installed packages. The diskspace savings is probably not substantial enough that it would be a different disk or partition, so that's not really the concern.
[22:22] <flocculant> well
[22:22] <bluesabre> Indeed.
[22:22] <flocculant> for those people that want a minimal setup - the work's done for them?
[22:23] <bluesabre> Yeah
[22:23] <bluesabre> It's the core experience once the install's done
[22:23] <ochosi> still feels misleading to call that minimal, but i guess if people are used to this from the other flavors...
[22:23] <bluesabre> And it means 1 or 2 ISOs to test instead of 2 or 4
[22:23] <flocculant> not getting drawn into that one ...
[22:24] <bluesabre> :D
[22:24] <flocculant> anyway - given there are just us - mailing list?
[22:24] <bluesabre> So yeah, probably another thing to send off for vote.
[22:24] <ochosi> yeah, probably
[22:24] <ochosi> although the benefit needs to be clarified from my pov
[22:24] <flocculant> yea
[22:24] <ochosi> we get potentially more stuff to test
[22:25] <flocculant> #chair bluesabre 
[22:25] <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant
[22:25]  * bluesabre sits
[22:25] <flocculant> so you can do stuff 
[22:25] <ochosi> and users get a minimal setup, but only after providing enough diskspace
[22:25] <flocculant> #chair ochosi
[22:25] <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant ochosi
[22:25]  * ochosi bows
[22:25] <flocculant> cos how can ignore ochosi :)
[22:25] <flocculant> who even
[22:25] <bluesabre> #action bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option
[22:25] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option
[22:26] <flocculant> #subtopic Orage
[22:26] <flocculant> there's been some talk in channel about this
[22:26] <bluesabre> Anything beyond "I don't use that"?
[22:26] <flocculant> with some people not even sure we seeded it still :p
[22:27] <ochosi> hehe
[22:27] <ochosi> well i'm all for dropping it
[22:27] <pleia2> I love orage
[22:27] <flocculant> ^^ was ochosi I think :)
[22:27] <ochosi> rly?
[22:27] <pleia2> how else would I get 4 timezones in my panel?
[22:27] <ochosi> pleia2: well it's good to hear ppl disagreeing, because i have a very clear opinion on it...
[22:27] <flocculant> ochosi: I thought so ?
[22:28] <flocculant> anyway
[22:28] <ochosi> pleia2: wait, that's it..? the regular panel clock plugin can do that too...
[22:28] <pleia2> the regular clock app has gotten better, I guess
[22:28] <flocculant> I'm not all that worried either way - but if there are dev reasons to drop it 
[22:28] <ochosi> i thought you were using the ical stuff
[22:28] <pleia2> didn't use to allow you to do some of the custom things, but now that it does maybe I'll give it a chance and report back ;)
[22:29] <ochosi> the ical support (with an incredibly crappy UI) and the unmaintained codebase is all orage has over the regular clock plugin
[22:29] <ochosi> the clock plugin even has a format validator now ;)
[22:29] <ochosi> anyway, if you find a feature (apart from ical) that is in orage but not the clock lemme know
[22:29] <pleia2> actually, clock seems to do what I need now :)
[22:30] <pleia2> carry on!
[22:30] <ochosi> :)
[22:30] <bluesabre> :)
[22:30] <pleia2> we should warn people though (release notes?) in case they're in my boat
[22:30] <ochosi> so i'd like to propose to drop orage from our default install
[22:30] <ochosi> we can keep it in the repos as a package, but just not install it by default
[22:30] <pleia2> sgtm
[22:30] <ochosi> pleia2: if they have it installed and upgrade it'll be retained anyway
[22:30] <pleia2> yeah
[22:30] <ochosi> so not sure what to warn people about
[22:31] <ochosi> apart from "Warning: The regular clock plugin can do anything you did with orage before!"
[22:31] <bluesabre> lol
[22:31] <pleia2> when I do a new install I automatically was using orage
[22:31] <flocculant> would it not just be in the release notes - this 'package' not there anymore
[22:31] <flocculant> ?
[22:31] <bluesabre> (yes)
[22:31] <ochosi> yup
[22:31] <pleia2> ochosi: that's fine :)
[22:32] <flocculant> so if people used it - they'd read the notes (of course) then install it
[22:32] <ochosi> yup
[22:32] <pleia2> yeah
[22:32]  * flocculant wasn't at all sarcastic
[22:32] <pleia2> :P
[22:32] <ochosi> thing is, i'd rather not ship stuff by default that is unmaintained
[22:32] <pleia2> yeah
[22:32] <ochosi> (last release 4yrs ago)
[22:32] <flocculant> agreed
[22:32] <flocculant> and we're almost quorum 
[22:32] <flocculant> sigh
[22:33] <ochosi> plus, it's one of the few remaining gtk2 plugins in xfce
[22:33] <bluesabre> Suppose I could address that
[22:33] <brainwash> but isn't Orage a calendar application?
[22:34] <ochosi> brainwash: yes, but a rather bad one
[22:35] <brainwash> so, maybe there is a need for a replacement
[22:35] <ochosi> partly because it uses the (unmaintained) gtkcalendar widget that really doesn't work well for calendars
[22:36] <ochosi> doesn't thunderbird partly do that?
[22:37] <brainwash> it could be that an offline calendar is not needed anymore
[22:37] <ochosi> (doesn't use desktop calendars or mail clients in ages)
[22:37] <bluesabre> We can take it to vote, and if we drop, it can be restored based on user feedback
[22:37] <ochosi> yeah
[22:37] <flocculant> shall we perhaps do a quick vote on this now - and then push that to ml for people to ignore?
[22:37] <flocculant> bluesabre: right
[22:37] <bluesabre> thunderbird's lightning plugin is not installed by default, but reasonably could be
[22:38] <flocculant> I used that once upon a time
[22:38] <flocculant> it was painful - though it was some time ago
[22:38] <flocculant> woot
[22:38] <flocculant> oops
[22:38] <bluesabre> :D
[22:38] <flocculant> so vote here now - or just ml it?
[22:38] <ochosi> personally i'd only go for alternatives if ppl ask for it
[22:38] <ochosi> maybe it's really not needed
[22:38] <bluesabre> yup
[22:38] <ochosi> i'd vote here
[22:39] <flocculant> #voters flocculant bluesabre ochosi pleia2 
[22:39] <meetingology> Current voters: bluesabre flocculant ochosi pleia2
[22:40] <flocculant> #vote Remove Orage from seed
[22:40] <meetingology> Please vote on: Remove Orage from seed
[22:40] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:40] <bluesabre> +1
[22:40] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
[22:40] <flocculant> +1
[22:40] <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
[22:40] <ochosi> +1
[22:40] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[22:41] <flocculant> pleia2: ?
[22:42] <pleia2> +1
[22:42] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[22:42] <flocculant> #endvote
[22:42] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Remove Orage from seed
[22:42] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[22:42] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:42] <flocculant> do we go with that then - or carry it over to ml
[22:43] <ochosi> i'd inform ppl on the ML
[22:43] <ochosi> we'll at least see if there is a big outcry that way
[22:43] <flocculant> #action flocculant to note to ml
[22:43] <meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to note to ml
[22:43] <flocculant> #subtopic Add Apturl to seed
[22:44] <flocculant> this is something I always wondered about 
[22:44] <ochosi> yeah, i'd say why not?
[22:44] <flocculant> I think Unit193 had some reservations about it 
[22:44] <bluesabre> Doesn't seem like it would hurt, and would generally improve user experience
[22:44] <flocculant> mmh
[22:45]  * flocculant check the pad
[22:46] <flocculant> wasn't there - maybe it was in channel. something about being out of sync with debian ?
[22:46] <flocculant> p'raps
[22:46] <flocculant> bluesabre: would that sound right?
[22:47] <bluesabre> It'd just be a part of our seed. I think Unit193 had some reservations, but wasn't specific.
[22:47] <flocculant> mmm 
[22:47] <bluesabre> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL for folks reading along
[22:47] <ochosi> yeah, i read that a few mins ago
[22:47] <ochosi> i felt it's unproblematic
[22:48] <bluesabre> Could be used in our docs too if we wanted
[22:48] <flocculant> well - I'd like to get as many things dealt with tonight as possible, but if someone in team had reservations I think we should take it to ml
[22:48] <flocculant> ? thoughts
[22:48] <bluesabre> Agreed
[22:48] <ochosi> k
[22:49] <flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed
[22:49] <meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed
[22:49] <flocculant> #subtopic Adding GIMP to seed
[22:49] <flocculant> from my pov - we took this out because space
[22:49] <pleia2> yeah
[22:49] <flocculant> we now have space - I'd just add it back
[22:50] <ochosi> +1
[22:50] <bluesabre> We shipped GIMP in Xubuntu until Wily Werewolf due to space concerns
[22:50] <ochosi> i always install gimp
[22:50] <pleia2> it's one of the first things I install
[22:50] <bluesabre> Same
[22:50] <bluesabre> Probably the same for a lot of folks
[22:50] <bluesabre> It's pretty ubiquitous
[22:50] <flocculant> so I would do vote as before and report to list
[22:50] <ochosi> bluesabre: wow, you still remember when we removed it..? holy crap!
[22:50] <bluesabre> ochosi: had to research that recently
[22:50] <ochosi> oh ok :)
[22:50] <flocculant> I don't remember when - I do remember us doing it 
[22:50]  * bluesabre has had a simmering rage since Wily
[22:50] <flocculant> #vote Add Gimp to seed
[22:50] <meetingology> Please vote on: Add Gimp to seed
[22:50] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[22:51] <bluesabre> +1
[22:51] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
[22:51] <flocculant> +1
[22:51] <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
[22:51] <pleia2> +1
[22:51] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[22:51] <ochosi> +1
[22:51] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[22:52] <flocculant> #endvote
[22:52] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Add Gimp to seed
[22:52] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
[22:52] <meetingology> Motion carried
[22:52] <flocculant> #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to see
[22:52] <flocculant> #undo
[22:52] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
[22:52] <flocculant> #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to seed
[22:52] <flocculant> this was me 
[22:53] <ochosi> hm, i mean i install it too by default now, but only because i need it at work
[22:53] <ochosi> at home i really never open impress
[22:53] <pleia2> I always install that too
[22:53] <flocculant> given that we no longer are quite so worried about seed size - I'd like to add this in with the other Libreoffice things we do - seems silly to not have it
[22:53] <ochosi> but i can imagine many ppl need it
[22:54] <bluesabre> I have no complaints about including it, and folks have asked for it for years
[22:54] <ochosi> flocculant: any clue how much space it adds approx?
[22:54] <flocculant> ochosi: adding it to live session > https://pasteboard.co/HMojyQ9.png
[22:54] <ochosi> right, that seems ok
[22:54] <flocculant> I did that a while back when I added it to the pad
[22:55] <flocculant> I got lost near Haytor in the fog
[22:55] <flocculant> oops
[22:55] <bluesabre> :D
[22:55] <ochosi> oh, you did? :D
[22:55] <pleia2> hehe
[22:55] <ochosi> or did you get lost in all your channel tabs..?
[22:55]  * flocculant spits tea at the screen - again
[22:56] <flocculant> ochosi: :p
[22:56] <brainwash> it seems to pull in libreoffice draw also
[22:56] <knome> a wild knome suddenly appears [N/E/S/W]?
[22:56] <flocculant> brainwash: yea
[22:56] <ochosi> knome: oh wow, now we have to take all the votes again :'D
[22:56] <knome> nah
[22:56] <bluesabre> we can really get things done now
[22:56] <knome> as long as you make ML threads i can just disagree with you there ;)
[22:56] <brainwash> is Draw needed?
[22:57] <ochosi> not sure if adding it to the seed also installs all recommends
[22:57] <ochosi> but apt does that by default now
[22:57] <ochosi> (in ubuntu)
[22:57] <flocculant> brainwash: not sure - didn't dig that far
[22:57] <pleia2> meh draw
[22:57] <knome> doesn't draw bring in all the (surprise) drawing stuff like vectors?
[22:57] <bluesabre> brainwash: yes, https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/libreoffice-impress
[22:58] <pleia2> I think because people embed draw things in impress slides
[22:58] <knome> yes
[22:59] <brainwash> "Design powerful and intuitive flowcharts with Draw."
[22:59] <brainwash> looks useful
[22:59] <knome> if everybody else ships draw with impress, wouldn't it potentially create one of those "but xubuntu is worse because even drawing stuff doesn't work!" -like sentiments
[22:59] <flocculant> right
[23:00] <knome> if we have space/motivation to bring in impress, bring in draw as well
[23:00] <pleia2> yeah
[23:00]  * flocculant makes note not to add knome to voter list - because interminable talking :D
[23:00] <bluesabre> it's a package depend, impress brings it without question
[23:00] <flocculant> #voters knome 
[23:00] <meetingology> Current voters: bluesabre flocculant knome ochosi pleia2
[23:00] <knome> ;)=
[23:00] <ochosi> brainwash: it's the visio counterpart
[23:00] <knome> bluesabre, unless we blacklist it :P
[23:00] <bluesabre> does that work for depends?
[23:00] <knome> but yes, i wasn't advocating for that anyway
[23:01] <knome> i have no idea, let's not figure out?
[23:01] <bluesabre> fine
[23:01]  * bluesabre breaks something else
[23:01] <knome> woohoo!
[23:01] <flocculant> good chap
[23:01] <brainwash> so, this would result in having the full libreoffice suite installed I'd think
[23:01] <knome> no base?
[23:02] <knome> the database thing
[23:02] <brainwash> ohh
[23:02] <bluesabre> yeah, don't need that
[23:02] <bluesabre> :D
[23:02] <knome> or is it pulled by something
[23:02] <flocculant> yea - it doesn't add the database - just whats in the screenie
[23:04] <ochosi> let's vote?
[23:04]  * bluesabre votes to vote
[23:04] <knome> sure.
[23:05] <flocculant> #vote Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
[23:05] <meetingology> Please vote on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
[23:05] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[23:05] <flocculant> +1
[23:05] <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
[23:05] <knome> +0
[23:05] <meetingology> +0 received from knome
[23:05] <pleia2> +1
[23:05] <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
[23:05] <bluesabre> +1
[23:05] <meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
[23:05] <ochosi> +1
[23:05] <meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
[23:06] <ochosi> it's so great to have knome around for the voting
[23:06] <knome> i know...
[23:06] <ochosi> :D
[23:06] <bluesabre> even when he abstains :|
[23:06] <bluesabre> (meant to be :P)
[23:06] <flocculant> better the devil you know
[23:07] <flocculant> #endvote
[23:07] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
[23:07] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
[23:07] <meetingology> Motion carried
[23:07] <ochosi> uhm, gnome software, oh noes
[23:07] <flocculant> #subtopic Status update on GNOME Software / alternatives? 
[23:07] <flocculant> so
[23:07] <bluesabre> so
[23:07] <flocculant> I hate this still 
[23:07] <ochosi> i think gnome software isn't great, but the alternatives also aren't
[23:07] <flocculant> and still refuse to use it :p
[23:07] <ochosi> synaptic is still unmaintained
[23:07] <flocculant> synaptic works fine - it's just not pretty - and I don't buy stuff 
[23:07] <ochosi> and unchanged
[23:08] <knome> but it's still around
[23:08] <flocculant> better maintained than before I believe
[23:08] <ochosi> knome: orage is also still around :p
[23:08] <knome> but synaptic works, right? :P
[23:08] <bluesabre> it does
[23:08] <flocculant> yep
[23:08] <bluesabre> and sometimes gnome-software does not
[23:08] <brainwash> gnome-software has snaps and firmware updates
[23:08] <brainwash> that's pretty nice
[23:08] <bluesabre> it does have that going for it
[23:08] <flocculant> I did look for the mate one - but I think that's now a snap 
[23:09] <knome> i really really don't like gnome-software (that's to say, i don't hate it either, but i don't like it), but i don't use even synaptic any more, so...
[23:09] <brainwash> bluesabre: and it uses appdata, another plus
[23:09] <bluesabre> had to patch for that recently, after folks removed exo and killed their xfce
[23:10] <flocculant> I don't think we're going to get very far with this discussion
[23:10] <flocculant> again
[23:10] <bluesabre> indeed
[23:10] <brainwash> personally, my main concern with gnome-software is that it keeps running in the background after "closing" it
[23:10] <ochosi> yeah
[23:10] <bluesabre> it's one of those things... there's no great options, so the status quo just persists
[23:10] <ochosi> that's one thing i also dislike
[23:10] <flocculant> brainwash: right
[23:10] <brainwash> which is a bit over 100MB
[23:11] <knome> when i last used it, it was sluggish when ran too :/
[23:11] <ochosi> i remember before gnome software we were unhappy with ubuntu-software
[23:11] <flocculant> one I didn't like was it leaving things behind - but I think that's been SRU'd now
[23:11] <ochosi> so "yay"
[23:11] <knome> ochosi, indeed
[23:11] <ochosi> i'm just not motivated enough, but if i had the time and motivation i'd probably just do a proper UI for synaptic and use that instead
[23:11] <flocculant> ochosi: ack - but moving because we had to just added different issues
[23:12] <ochosi> (how hard can that be)
[23:12] <flocculant> quite
[23:12] <flocculant> I couldn't do it :D
[23:12] <ochosi> i think two afternoons of work for two people
[23:12] <bluesabre> uh oh
[23:12] <brainwash> but that's only the UI
[23:12] <flocculant> or 2 years if one was me
[23:13] <brainwash> features will be still missing
[23:13] <ochosi> i know
[23:13] <flocculant> I think the issue is the paid stuff and snaps
[23:13] <ochosi> doesn't it also handle flatpak?
[23:13] <ochosi> or is that only outside ubuntu
[23:13] <bluesabre> So, it's feeling like we keep gnome-software for now for lack of anything "better"
[23:13] <brainwash> don't forget that the Gnome project will keep improving -software
[23:14] <bluesabre> flatpak can be enabled easily
[23:14] <bluesabre> the various backends are plugins
[23:14] <ochosi> anyway, i think we can leave the discussion there. as bluesabre and others mentioned, we won't get further
[23:14] <flocculant> brainwash: 'improving'
[23:14] <flocculant> ok - works for me ochosi 
[23:15] <brainwash> can't make it any worse :>
[23:15] <bluesabre> brainwash: shhhh
[23:15] <flocculant> #subtopic Replacing Light Locker with Xfce Screensaver
[23:15] <flocculant> I'm sure someone has loads to say about this :p
[23:15] <bluesabre> hi
[23:15] <flocculant> ohai
[23:16] <brainwash> it's good to have screensavers back
[23:16] <bluesabre> I've been working on a replacement for light-locker/gnome-screensaver/mate-screensaver/xscreensaver
[23:16] <bluesabre> And I'm happy to say my laptop turns on after I close and open the lid! :D
[23:16] <flocculant> that's good :)
[23:16] <ochosi> lol
[23:17] <ochosi> yeah, my only point is that if you think it's stable enough i'd include it
[23:17] <flocculant> what was the issue on the xfce list re that and /usr/lib (or somesuch)
[23:17] <ochosi> so that's all that depends on from my pov
[23:17] <bluesabre> A bit of info https://docs.xfce.org/apps/screensaver/start and https://bluesabre.org/2018/10/15/xfce-screensaver-0-1-0-released/
[23:17] <flocculant> I'm waiting to see the results of the FIXED to the 2 bugs I found ochosi :)
[23:17] <ochosi> :)
[23:18] <bluesabre> ochosi: I think it's pretty stable as of the release I pushed out this morning, but I'd like to get it to the PPA for folks to kick the tires a bit
[23:18] <flocculant> so would I 
[23:19] <flocculant> I assume that I could git it - but I don't want to unless I need too - I'd like a pretty relaxed 6 months this time :p
[23:19] <bluesabre> flocculant: link to the /usr/lib thing (or was this some time ago and the thing I fixed for OpenBSD)?
[23:19] <bluesabre> flocculant: and yeah, will have that packaged sometime this weekend
[23:20] <flocculant> aah yea OpenBSD
[23:20] <flocculant> that's the one
[23:20] <bluesabre> cool
[23:20] <bluesabre> Fixed
[23:20] <flocculant> and ok cool
[23:20] <bluesabre> And not us ;)
[23:20] <flocculant> \0/
[23:20] <flocculant> :)
[23:21] <flocculant> anyway - as others are quiet I assume no problems so lets just vote 
[23:21] <flocculant> #vote Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
[23:21] <meetingology> Please vote on: Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
[23:21] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
[23:21] <flocculant> +1
[23:21] <meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
[23:21] <pleia2> +0
[23:21] <meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
[23:21] <knome> +1 as long as it is stable at release time
[23:21] <meetingology> +1 as long as it is stable at release time received from knome
[23:21] <bluesabre> Not really anything to vote on yet, it was more of an informational thing :D
[23:21] <pleia2> :)
[23:22] <flocculant> I hatez you
[23:22] <bluesabre> +1 pending folks testing
[23:22] <meetingology> +1 pending folks testing received from bluesabre
[23:22] <ochosi> +1 as long as it is stable at release time
[23:22] <meetingology> +1 as long as it is stable at release time received from ochosi
[23:23] <flocculant> think we should still go for it anyway - regardless
[23:24] <flocculant> #enddvote
[23:24] <bluesabre> #endvote
[23:24] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
[23:24] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
[23:24] <meetingology> Motion carried
[23:24] <flocculant> #undo
[23:24] <meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
[23:24] <knome> umm
[23:24] <knome> no?
[23:24] <flocculant> that was close 
[23:24] <bluesabre> interesting
[23:24] <knome> you can't remove false commands
[23:24] <knome> and votes either, i think
[23:24] <flocculant> never mind
[23:25] <flocculant> couldn't find it in the manual knome :p
[23:25] <bluesabre> :)
[23:25] <knome> heh
[23:25] <flocculant> #subtopic Applying Xubuntu defaults to commonly used apps (Plank, others) 
[23:25] <flocculant> ok
[23:25] <flocculant> so as much as I like the idea
[23:25]  * knome grins at the thought of an automatic knome
[23:25] <flocculant> I'm dead against it
[23:25] <bluesabre> oh?
[23:26] <flocculant> you give me a list - and I'll give you another
[23:26] <knome> if we have people to *maintain* those defaults...
[23:26] <flocculant> we will never please people here
[23:26] <flocculant> right - well one of mine uses Qt
[23:26] <bluesabre> that's true
[23:26] <knome> the idea is to make them integrate well with xubuntu, right?
[23:26] <bluesabre> yeah
[23:27] <knome> and explicitly for the appearance-related things, to look like xubuntu
[23:27] <bluesabre> Yep
[23:27] <flocculant> right 
[23:27] <flocculant> so - Qt doesn't
[23:27] <bluesabre> Like the Xubuntu Light theme in gedit, GTK theme for Plank, etc
[23:27] <knome> so if we change some stuff in default settings/apps, then those changes should be migrated to the "commonly used app" defaults too
[23:27] <flocculant> I do like the idea 
[23:28] <knome> i don't mind shipping an "incomplete" list of default settings with xubuntu
[23:28] <flocculant> but I don't see how we can do this - without getting a load of whataboutery
[23:28] <knome> what i mind more is shipping stuff that isn't really "xubuntu" with xubuntu
[23:28] <knome> if people complain about missing support for $my_favorite_thing, we can invite them to collaborate
[23:29] <bluesabre> but I do see the concern about it balooning
[23:29] <knome> sure, but then again all defaults we ship for non-default apps is just extra
[23:29] <flocculant> knome: I know the pov - but fix it if you want - I just don't like that 
[23:30] <knome> like likerally, it's extra service we offer
[23:30] <flocculant> or don't
[23:30] <flocculant> that's the question isn't it
[23:30] <bluesabre> yeah, basically the reason for the agenda item
[23:30] <knome> the only potentially negative side is if these defaults somehow mess up user customizations
[23:31] <knome> so we set a default for X to be Y and the user wants X to be Z... but can't because a default is shipped
[23:31] <ochosi> we already do ship some of this stuff
[23:31] <ochosi> like the compton config
[23:31] <knome> i know that's not how defaults work - but it's not really "defaults" as much as "globals" for some things
[23:31] <ochosi> it's mostly a question of whether we want to extend that
[23:31] <knome> if we have creators, why not?
[23:31] <ochosi> plus, plank already is supported by greybird, it's just not configured
[23:31] <flocculant> see 
[23:32] <knome> i wouldn't put the limited work hour artwork team to work on stuff like this
[23:32] <flocculant> I'd like Cantata to look ok in Xubuntu
[23:32] <bluesabre> flocculant: Is Cantata a qt app?
[23:32] <flocculant> yea
[23:32] <flocculant> it looks ok'ish with the Qt5 thingy
[23:33] <bluesabre> I was planning to have a one-click "make qt apps look less bad" in the xubuntu tweak item
[23:33] <flocculant> but it looks out of place - but I put up with it - because I'm me and not xubuntu-art :)
[23:33] <flocculant> right
[23:33] <knome> bluesabre, any reason why that click can't be automated?
[23:34] <bluesabre> knome: basically because the qt5-styles-plugin brings in a lot of qt things that probably shouldn't be in iso
[23:34] <knome> ah yes that
[23:34] <knome> anyway, let's stick to subject for now...
[23:34] <bluesabre> yeah
[23:35] <flocculant> point
[23:35] <knome> so to repeat myself and to clarify: if we have the creators (and maintainers) for these additional default stuffs, i'd happily support including them
[23:35] <flocculant> given that this was Spass's thing - and he's of late been trying to be involved - I'd like to move this to the ml - even if he can't vote
[23:36] <bluesabre> certainly
[23:36] <knome> even to the point that i could do some "reviews" on the stuff (given time etc. permits) and help them become more "xubuntu"
[23:36] <flocculant> knome: ack
[23:39] <flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps
[23:39] <meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps
[23:39] <bluesabre> cool
[23:39] <ochosi> guys, i gotta go in 3mins
[23:39] <ochosi> so maybe just a brief comment on the last agenda item
[23:40] <flocculant> ochosi: okey doke - you had comments on the last I think
[23:40] <flocculant> #subtopic Developing "Xubuntu Tweak"
[23:40] <flocculant> ochosi: so if you want to warble now on your pov
[23:40] <ochosi> this may be a pet project of "someone" (not looking at you, bluesabre), but i really think we have more important tasks - even if it would be nice to get something like that *i guess*
[23:41] <ochosi> e.g. getting the panel prefs dialogs HIG aligned ;)
[23:41] <knome> my gut reaction is "oh god don't call it anything *tweak*"
[23:41] <ochosi> so in general i think we're really closing in on xfce 4.14 and i'd rather focus on that then develop new downstream stuff
[23:41] <bluesabre> I suggest it as a tool to easily apply current defaults (say you've upgraded all the same way from dapper and make everything feel cosmic)
[23:41] <bluesabre> Or applying easy fixes, "MY QT5 looks bad"
[23:42] <ochosi> yeah right, sounds like a dirty python app :p
[23:42] <bluesabre> Yes
[23:42] <pleia2> I have to step away for family things
[23:42] <knome> pleia2, o/
[23:42] <ochosi> just sayin, it may also end up being time consuming with bugfixes and people adding stuff to the wishlist
[23:42] <knome> and ochosi p/
[23:42] <bluesabre> It wouldn't be a pretty thing, it'd be scripty
[23:42] <bluesabre> yeah
[23:42] <ochosi> and it's not a bad idea, just not a very high-prio one
[23:42] <ochosi> from my pov
[23:42] <bluesabre> Right, that's fair
[23:42] <ochosi> but who am i to tell anyone else what to do with their free time ;)
[23:43] <bluesabre> Might be a future release thing after 4.14
[23:43] <bluesabre> But wanted to get the idea out there
[23:43] <knome> ...and it doesn't get my support either if its name has the word "tweak" in it :P
[23:43] <ochosi> lol
[23:43] <ochosi> yeah, tbh i'd personally rather do something like an xfce profile manager
[23:43] <knome> rather "the xubuntu winkywonky tool"
[23:43] <bluesabre> "Xubuntu Repair & Adjustment Tool Box"
[23:43] <bluesabre> lol
[23:44] <ochosi> that would be an upstream thing that combines display profiles, panel profiles, and practically all other settings
[23:44] <knome> +1 for the profile manager, the name sounds 100× more professional as well
[23:44] <ochosi> anyway, those were my 2cents
[23:44] <bluesabre> Yeah, it could do everything that didn't need package-y things
[23:44] <bluesabre> thanks ochosi 
[23:44] <ochosi> https://git.xfce.org/archive/xfce4-profile-manager/
[23:44] <ochosi> :>
[23:44] <bluesabre> but yeah, just an idea for now
[23:44] <ochosi> (yeah, obviously not a new idea)
[23:45] <knome> could we do a quick fix for this with some blog articles etc?
[23:45] <bluesabre> ochosi: clearly an old idea
[23:45] <bluesabre> 2011
[23:45] <bluesabre> :O
[23:45] <knome> well not fix, more like a workaround
[23:45] <ochosi> yeah, i worked on it with stephan at some point
[23:45] <ochosi> knome: yeah, FAQs help
[23:45] <ochosi> we can even add the one-liner that "fixes your QT5 apps"
[23:45] <ochosi> to the FAQ
[23:45] <bluesabre> I'd be happy with FAQs
[23:45] <ochosi> so it becomes a copy-paste job
[23:45] <bluesabre> with apturl it becomes a click
[23:45] <bluesabre> :D
[23:46] <ochosi> lol
[23:46] <ochosi> indeed
[23:46] <knome> either or, we can do both
[23:46] <ochosi> alrighty, night everyone!
[23:46] <knome> nighty ochosi 
[23:46] <bluesabre> nighty ochosi, thanks for dropping by!
[23:46] <flocculant> ochosi: night - thanks :)
[23:47] <flocculant> ok - so are we going to get anywhere with this tonight - because it's now 23:47 
[23:47] <flocculant> :p
[23:47] <knome> you're wrong
[23:47] <knome> it's 01:47
[23:47] <bluesabre> flocculant: I have nothing more to say about the tweak app, it's not going to be a disco thing, too much other stuff to do :)
[23:47] <flocculant> furriner
[23:47] <flocculant> bluesabre: ok
[23:48] <flocculant> lets table that then
[23:48] <knome> i think the "only" action item is that we should write blog stuff on things that the tool would take care of -- so people can get on with it already
[23:48] <bluesabre> that seems fair
[23:49] <bluesabre> #nick xubuntu-team
[23:49] <knome> the drafting part likely falls for bluesabre since he has an idea of the things that should be easier
[23:49] <flocculant> #action knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses
[23:49] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses
[23:49] <knome> but i can definitely help on the proofreading, figuring out how to publish etc.
[23:49] <flocculant> #topic AOB
[23:49] <flocculant> anyone got anything else ?
[23:50] <bluesabre> nothing from me
[23:50] <flocculant> I guess at some point we should talk about the pad - but I'm losing the will to live tonight
[23:50] <knome> not that it comes as a surprise, but i might continue keeping on a bit quieter this cycle as well...
[23:50] <flocculant> yup 
[23:50] <knome> you can always reach me via email or pinging at IRC though
[23:50] <knome> and i will very likely reply within 24 hours
[23:51] <knome> -- and please, don't hesitate to ask if you have anything
[23:51] <flocculant> and I'm trying to peg back - though I'm always reachable and will do the bare minimum where needed, really would prefer to be looking more Xfce now
[23:51] <flocculant> #topic Schedule next meeting
[23:51] <flocculant> da duh duh ...
[23:51] <flocculant> it is still 
[23:51] <knome> it's so much easier to help with direct requests than try to figure out something sensible to start working yourself...
[23:51] <flocculant> slickymaster's 
[23:51] <flocculant> go to run the next one 
[23:51] <knome> just skip him
[23:51] <flocculant> #endmeeting
[23:51] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 23 23:51:51 2018 UTC.  
[23:51] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.moin.txt
[23:51] <knome> :P
[23:51] <bluesabre> lol
[23:52] <bluesabre> thanks flocculant, that was a productive meeting!
[23:52] <flocculant> phew - night all - and thanks - we actually got some results \0/
[23:52] <knome> thanks flocculant, bluesabre, ochosi, brainwash 
[23:52] <flocculant> bluesabre: yea
[23:52] <knome> oh and pleia2 ofc
[23:52] <knome> free pings for everyone
[23:52] <knome> discord loses the fun when you can just go @everyone on a channel :(
[23:53] <flocculant> cya soon
[23:53] <bluesabre> :)
[23:53] <bluesabre> knome: the spam bots do it all the time
[23:53] <knome> hah