[18:57] <slashd> o/
[19:01] <rbasak> o/
[19:02] <jbicha> \o
[19:04] <rbasak> Anyone else?
[19:04] <ddstreet> o/
[19:05] <ddstreet> should be a quick mtg i think ;-)
[19:08] <slashd> cyphermox, ?
[19:08] <slashd> cyphermox, is off today I think
[19:08] <ddstreet> lol well i'm off today too
[19:08] <slashd> ;)
[19:09] <slashd> missing one dmb member to get the quorum
[19:10] <rbasak> ddstreet: it would be helpful if you could keep a log on your application change of what has changed since your previous application
[19:10] <acheronuk> tsimonq2 can't be here
[19:11] <ddstreet> rbasak if the DMB could quantify what i need to do besides "more" that would help too
[19:11] <slashd> ddstreet, did you mention the merge we did together for vlan ?
[19:11] <rbasak> ddstreet: I thought I was pretty clear on what I wanted in the previous meeting.
[19:11] <slashd> I don't see it in the wiki page
[19:12] <ddstreet> slashd no i don't think i remembered that, thnx
[19:12] <rbasak> ddstreet: if you want more clarification I think you could start by not trivialising that to "more", because that isn't what happened.
[19:13] <jbicha> ddstreet: respectfully, it doesn't look to me like you've done any non-SRU uploads since the last meeting
[19:13] <ddstreet> hmm ok, i'll review the logs then rbasak
[19:13] <jbicha> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-19-15.01.log.html
[19:13] <ddstreet> jbicha well i can't upload to disco
[19:13] <ddstreet> that's the point :)
[19:14] <jbicha> have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess ? :)
[19:14] <ddstreet> jbicha yes
[19:14] <ddstreet> you mean i haven't had a spnosor upload a debdiff to disco for me
[19:14] <jbicha> yes
[19:14] <ddstreet> nope
[19:14] <jbicha> ok, so if I don't see any recent work on https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsoree=dan+streetman&sponsoree_search=name
[19:14] <jbicha> I would have expected to see work on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
[19:15] <rbasak> ddstreet: why are you keen on getting core dev if you don't have any uploads to do? And if you do have uploads to do, then why haven't you had any sponsored uploads since your last application?
[19:15] <ddstreet> rbasak i will have uploads to do
[19:15] <ddstreet> as well as pushing into ubuntu-dev-tools git, which i don't want to do without coredev
[19:16] <rbasak> I don't think you should push into ubuntu-dev-tools git as soon as you get core dev. If you haven't got consensus from other core devs on that, please consider why.
[19:16] <ddstreet> jbicha i have uploaded (sponsored) several uploads last week, to sru release
[19:16] <ddstreet> rbasak i already have
[19:17] <ddstreet> rbasak see my and mattia's last comments in https://code.launchpad.net/~ddstreet/ubuntu-dev-tools/+git/ubuntu-dev-tools/+merge/322863
[19:17] <ddstreet> he's ready for me to push into git anytime
[19:17] <ddstreet> i'm not planning to until i get coredev
[19:18] <ddstreet> and my ubuntu-dev-tools changeset gets bigger and bigger all the time :(
[19:18] <rbasak> I feel that you're making this hard for yourself.
[19:18] <ddstreet> ok...
[19:18] <rbasak> It's you yourself declining to make merges that are making the problem bigger as you describe.
[19:19] <rbasak> The bigger the MP, the less you're going to get other developers volunteering to review it, and the less appropriate the proposal will be.
[19:19] <ddstreet> i'm not *asking* for coredev to push into ubuntu-dev-tools
[19:19] <ddstreet> you're the one who is asking why i want it - that's one reason
[19:19] <ddstreet> rbasak nobody will review my MP
[19:19] <ddstreet> that's very clear
[19:20] <rbasak> Because it's immense.
[19:20] <ddstreet> it's a clear line of git commits
[19:20] <ddstreet> anyone is free to review them - nobody is going to
[19:20] <rbasak> Land them slowly then. Small chunks at a time, in small MPs.
[19:20] <ddstreet> why are we talking about it?
[19:21] <ddstreet> eh, i have better things to do than continue to try to get people to review my MP
[19:21] <ddstreet> like, actually improving code ;-)
[19:21] <slashd> rbasak, I think ddstreeet is trying to unblock himself in different situation where he would have need to upload in devel release (example: SRU but the fix is not yet in devel release) but also because I know ddstreet is always keen to fix packages from what I know network related (vlan, ...)
[19:26] <jbicha> ddstreet: I don't think 5 sponsored uploads is sufficient for granting new upload rights
[19:26] <ddstreet> jbicha what is the # that is sufficient?
[19:26] <jbicha> I don't have an exact number to give you
[19:27] <ddstreet> rofl
[19:27] <jbicha> for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership we want "significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu"
[19:27] <jbicha> I don't think 5 uploads is signficant and sustained
[19:27] <slashd> ddstreet, may I suggest you do some +1 maintenance ? that can allow you to increase the # of sponsored upload in disco
[19:28] <slashd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam
[19:28] <ddstreet> sure, and what # of disco uploads should i aim for, slashd jbicha rbasak
[19:29] <ddstreet> or, just keep going until you approve? ;-)
[19:29] <rbasak> Right now that's not my concern any more.
[19:29] <rbasak> I'm concerned that you aren't on the same page as other Ubuntu developers.
[19:29] <ddstreet> rbasak and how is that
[19:30] <rbasak> "i will have uploads to do" etc
[19:30] <rbasak> This has already been explained to you.
[19:30] <ddstreet> rbasak sorry not following
[19:30] <jbicha> to be a bit more direct, I believe both the Ubuntu Membership Board and the DMB generally look for a minimum of 6 months of contributions (although exceptions can be made)
[19:30] <rbasak> "rofl" doesn't sound apologetic to me. It sounds like you have contempt for our process rather than any misunderstaning.
[19:30] <ddstreet> jbicha are you saying i don't have 6 months of contributions?
[19:31] <jbicha> I don't think 5 uploads counts as 6 months of sustained contributions
[19:31] <ddstreet> rbasak well your board failed to even show up for my first 2 meetings - are you apologetic for that? ;-)
[19:31] <ddstreet> jbicha ok, but is 10?  20?  40?
[19:31] <ddstreet> rbasak i'm not apologetic, can you clarify what your problem with me is exactly?
[19:31] <rbasak> "rbasak if the DMB could quantify what i need to do besides "more" that would help too" is another example - something I specifically addressed in the last meeting
[19:32] <rbasak> I believe I did apologise, publicly, for the absence of other DMB members, yes.
[19:32] <ddstreet> rbasak what *exactly* have i done, or am i doing, wrong
[19:32] <ddstreet> besides "not enough"
[19:32] <rbasak> However throwing that at us isn't productive given that we're the ones that are here.
[19:33] <rbasak> See the logs from the last meeting please. I think I laid it out very well there.
[19:33] <ddstreet> rbasak this feels like it's devolving into personal attacks on me - shouldn't this board focus on technical ability instead?
[19:33] <rbasak> "Most of the work we do has implicit consensus that we receive through our mutual understanding as we work together in our teams, and this is essential to make progress. This relies on individual developers understanding when other team members will have no objection, and on being active in seeking consensus when this is not the case. I don't specifically expect evidence of this, but I do take into
[19:33] <rbasak> account any information I have on this aspect. 2
[19:33] <jbicha> if we take an average of 1 upload per week for 6 months, that's about 25 uploads; but I am very reluctant to put an exact number on this
[19:34] <ddstreet> jbicha \o/ ok i'll shoot for 25 uploads to disco then
[19:34] <rbasak> ddstreet: you asked me why I'm concerned about granting you core dev, and I'm explaining.
[19:34] <jbicha> and while I absolutely do want you to come back before the DMB, I would expect you to wait a few months first
[19:34] <ddstreet> jbicha if i came back with 25 disco uploads, would you be happy at that point, or would you ask for something additional?
[19:34] <ddstreet> jbicha you want me to wait until # uploads, or just wait certain time period?
[19:35] <jbicha> I mean I had the opposite problem in my career. I waited far too long to apply to be a DD and a Core Dev
[19:35] <rbasak> As long as this remains confrontational, I'm afraid I will remain a -1.
[19:35] <ddstreet> jbicha ok, well i'm not doing that, so...
[19:35] <rbasak> I'm willing to try to bridge this gap, but that needs work from your side too, not contempt.
[19:35] <ddstreet> rbasak what specifically do you want me to do to get you to +1?
[19:36] <jbicha> In his time on the DMB, Robie has worked to try to be more precise on what he's looking for by creating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/DMB/CoreDev
[19:36] <rbasak> I don't think this conversation can be productive any more. If it's not clear to you, I think it is at least clear to multiple other developers and perhaps they will do a better job of explaining this to you.
[19:37] <ddstreet> jbicha i've read that, and it's a good outline, but it's unclear what specifically rbasak thinks i'm lacking from that wiki page
[19:37] <jbicha> ddstreet: "need to unblock"
[19:37] <ddstreet> jbicha and that "need to unblock" principle will be proved by me getting more disco uploads sponsored, right?
[19:37] <rbasak> Please take a step back, calm down, and then seek advice from other developers - your sponsors, perhaps.
[19:38] <ddstreet> rbasak i am calm ;-)
[19:38] <ddstreet> i'm just confused
[19:38] <jbicha> from what I can tell, you have coworkers that can easily sponsor the few uploads you need to the devel release
[19:38] <ddstreet> the "need to unblock" is proven my more disco uploads - but you said your objection isn't about "more"...?
[19:38] <slashd> ddstreet, let's focus you and I on development release work : sync/merge,+1, ... and see how we can reach the gap. thoughts ?
[19:38] <ddstreet> jbicha with that argument, why approve anyone ever?  all developers in the world can find sponsorship to disco
[19:39] <ddstreet> slashd i'm happy to - assuming that more disco uploads is the only requirement the DMB is asking me for
[19:39] <jbicha> that's not true for everyone, we have sponsorship requests that have been open for months
[19:39] <ddstreet> which is highly confusing since rbasak said at the start his objection is not about "more"
[19:39] <slashd> ddstreet, well development release is the only bit you are missing in your privileges, so yeah
[19:40] <jbicha> I specifically voted to help Budgie & Kylin devs get upload rights because their flavors were being significantly hurt by the slow sponsorship queue
[19:40] <ddstreet> jbicha i have, and will, need to upload to disco.  sure, i can get sponsorship, but that delays the process and increases sponsor's workload.  which is the point of me getting coredev.
[19:40] <ddstreet> jbicha the Canonical Support Engineering team is also being impacted by slow response to uploads, which is why slashd got coredev, and why i'm applying for coredev
[19:40] <jbicha> 5 uploads per year does not sound like a big burden to your sponsors
[19:41] <ddstreet> jbicha i will be sponsoring *other people* in uploading to disco
[19:41] <ddstreet> as well as myself
[19:41] <ddstreet> this isn't just about me uploading my own changes
[19:41] <jbicha> that's not how this works
[19:41] <ddstreet> what's not how this works?
[19:41] <jbicha> you aren't applying for core dev rights for other people, you are applying for upload rights for yourself
[19:41] <ddstreet> uh
[19:42] <ddstreet> clearly i mean i will be uploading other people's work after reviewing - just like all of you do when sponsoring
[19:42] <jbicha> that's not how the DMB grants permissions
[19:42] <ddstreet> ok, i'm just clarifying for you that granting me coredev rights "unblocks" uploading for more people than just me
[19:42] <ddstreet> you *did* talk about "unblocking"
[19:43] <ddstreet> ;-)
[19:43] <jbicha> If sponsoring for your coworkers is your "need to unblock", then you're asking the DMB to handle your application differently than everyone else's
[19:43] <ddstreet> sigh
[19:43] <slashd> I would say let's do the development work needed by ddstreet to reach the gap, and let's have the discussion back in a couple of weeks/months when ddstreet and I will have done more work in the devel area.
[19:43] <ddstreet> this is clearly going nowhere, do you want to just vote me down and i'll come back after 25 disco uploads?
[19:43] <ddstreet> yeah what slashd said
[19:43] <jbicha> you argument might not succeed, but you will definitely need to quantify your argument
[19:44] <jbicha> I'd rather not vote again today since I haven't seen any significant changes since our last meeting
[19:44] <jbicha> we can move on in our agenda though…
[19:45] <rbasak> We weren't quorate, so I don't think we actually formally started the meeting.
[19:45] <slashd> jbicha, rbasak , I'll start mentoring ddstreet on what need to be done next (w/ my coredev hat) and I'll see when he is ready to re-apply again in a couple weeks/months.
[19:45] <rbasak> Thanks slashd!
[19:45] <jbicha> thank you
[19:45] <slashd> since the patch is still fresh in my mind ;)
[19:45] <slashd> path ^
[19:45] <slashd> does that sound like a good plan to you ddstreet ?
[19:45] <ddstreet> sure
[19:46] <slashd> ddstreet, perfect
[19:47] <slashd> so I guess you can adjourn the meeting for now ? unless anything else need to be discuss
[19:50] <slashd> thanks jbicha rbasak ddstreet. I guess the meeting is over now ?
[20:01] <jbicha> yes