Unit193vorlon: Hi!  You have a longstanding patch in irssi, did you ever file an issue upstream for that or talk to someone in #irssi?  I'm presuming it has something to do with connecting to Canonical's IRC network, or getting out from there.00:44
vorlonUnit193: it was filed upstream; upstream rejected it; the patch in question is mandatory if you want proxies to work properly w/ ssl00:44
vorlonunless upstream has since fixed things differently00:45
seb128rbalint, hey, is unattended-upgrades supposed to be installing standard updates in disco? or is that a bug?06:15
seb128vorlon, ^ maybe you know?06:17
rbalintseb128, not at all! u-u starts upgrades 21 days before the release https://github.com/mvo5/unattended-upgrades/pull/14906:17
didrocksrbalint: vorlon: associated bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unattended-upgrades/+bug/182447006:17
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1824470 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "unattended-upgrade is running on the dev version, updating regular packages" [Undecided,New]06:18
seb128rbalint, well, we are in that timeframe, but it seems to apply any disco update06:18
didrocksbut isn't it supposed to only install security updates?06:18
seb128(we don't have anything in security at this point)06:18
rbalintseb128, didrocks: u-u runs in Debian unstable and testing all the time to catch bugs in u-u and in every other package06:19
seb128rbalint, I noticed because in the mornings my apt is being locked/not usable for long times06:19
didrocksrbalint: this is annoying on the development version, where you want people to have control over their updates though06:19
didrockslike this morning, there was a known mutter issue06:20
didrocksI wanted to check06:20
didrocksand check the fix06:20
rbalintdidrocks, it is possible to disable it06:20
didrockshere, I was puzzled because suddenly things are updated under my feet06:20
didrocksright, I can disable the systemd service06:20
didrocksbut maybe won't reenable it after release06:20
didrockssounds weird, the GUI options tells this service only apply security updates06:20
rbalintdidrocks, i'd suggest using the config file instead06:20
seb128rbalint, sorry your answer are not clear to me. So what you say is that it doesn apply every updates by design on unstable series (= disco)?06:20
didrockswhich it doesn't06:21
seb128rbalint, is it going to stop doing that when disco turns stable? (do we need an upload for changing the behaviour or does it has a notion of what are unstable/stable series?)06:21
rbalintseb128, didrocks: the release pocket and -security are enabled06:22
rbalintrelese pocket freezes after the release, thus packages from -security will continue flowing in06:22
seb128ah, I guess it means once disco it's stable release is not changing and it's not handing -updates06:22
seb128*only handling updates06:23
rbalintseb128, yes06:23
seb128sorry -*not*06:23
seb128rbalint, k, makes sense06:23
* didrocks finds this new behavior a little bit puzzling though06:23
seb128rbalint, the user experience is not really nice, we should do integration work in the desktop to tell the user what's going on06:23
seb128e.g indicator or something06:23
seb128would be nice if apt was also hinting that "unattended upgrades are being applied" rather than just telling that there is a lock set06:24
seb128I often end up with a system which I can't use to do work in the morning wondering how long it's going to take before I've my apt back06:24
seb128I killed unattended-upgrades after 10 min the other day06:25
didrocksespecially as it treats one package after another06:25
didrocksas also, you don't know if you are testing the updated version or the one for the day before, like in the mutter case06:25
didrocksbecause apt policy will tell you are you on the latest, but you didn't restart the software06:25
didrocks(which is actually what happened this morning)06:25
didrockswhich is OK in the released version, a little bit less on a dev one IMHO06:26
seb128(that point is probably a "need to learn about how things changed/are done now" more than a long term issue, once you know it's doing update in bg when you start the machine you can teach yourself to check the update timestamp)06:27
didrocksif you have something that reminds you "we are in those 21 days period before releaseā€¦"06:28
seb128yeah, I think the real issue is that we don't surface what's going on in the UI06:28
seb128which is also true for security on stable06:28
seb128we have a class of bugs about that06:29
seb128like "system hang on shutdown"06:29
seb128(which is "waits for that service finishes working")06:29
seb128rbalint, do you have any opinion on the right venue to discuss properly surfacing to the user/in the desktop that u-u is doing its thing in the background (so you know that your updates are being handled, what is making your internet/disk busy, what is locking your packaging tools)06:31
seb128rbalint, also we should fix software-properties to not tell that "only security updates are being applied" where it's obviously not true06:31
rbalintseb128, probably it would be #ubuntu-desktop06:35
rbalintseb128, terminal users don't really need that06:36
rbalintseb128, ther can be a desktop applet showing when the apt lock is taken06:37
rbalintseb128, it is not only u-u doing things in the background, it can be landscape or other management tool06:37
rbalintseb128, but in a stable release the upgrade should not be noticable06:38
seb128rbalint, I'm not sure I agree with that, as I said I needed apt to do work the other day and I couldn't use it for 10 min+, I had to lsof on the lock to figure out what was going on, so it's not only desktop06:40
seb128apt way of telling you that "the lock is taken" without details is an issue for command line users imho06:41
rbalintseb128, i'd just run top or pstree06:41
seb128because you know what to look for06:42
seb128I did ps and looked for dpkg processes06:42
seb128didn't find any06:42
rbalintwell, pstree is really nice06:42
seb128but maybe that was looking for the wrong thing, u-u is not using dpkg?06:42
rbalintseb128, well, it uses mostly libapt, but keeps the lock for the whole session06:43
seb128right, so I was looking for the wrong thing06:44
seb128I though it would use dpkg if it was installing packages06:44
seb128and looked for that06:44
seb128bottom line is that apt could tell you who owns the lock06:44
seb128and what's going on06:44
rbalintseb128, this sounds like an apt wishlist bug06:44
seb128rbalint, also "it's not an issue on stable" is probably true for a machine which is modern and that you use daily, the other day I turned one a computer I didn't use for a month which has a non-ssd drive06:44
seb128u-u took like half an hour06:45
rbalintseb128, this is challenging but not unexpected at all06:45
seb128well, seems we disagree on what makes a good user experience and what can confuse users06:46
seb128which I guess is the way it is, no point arguing for hours over it06:46
seb128rbalint, thx for listening and for the replies!06:46
rbalintseb128, no, i agree that showing that apt working in the background could be useful on desktop06:46
rbalintseb128, i have hight expectation of users using dev release on their main machine06:47
seb128I see that :)06:47
rbalintand i believe we should optimize for high quality stable relases instead of not putting pressure on dev users06:48
rbalintthe extra pressure is little imo, i got few complaints from Debian devs for running u-u all the time in testing and sid06:49
didrocksI think thus such changes should have been announced, it impacts everybody using the dev release and announcing those is high development standard IMHO06:50
rbalintdidrocks, i agree, i had the plans to write a blog post about it on planet ubuntu, but this got lost in the priorities. I'm sorry.06:52
didrocksrbalint: no worry, but it's not too late! It can help others06:52
seb128rbalint, right, I agree with that, as Didier said it just probably missed at least an email to ubuntu-devel@ with a FYI06:57
seb128rbalint, oh, last question for today and then I stop bothering you ... does u-u provide a "client API" (dbus or other) that a potential desktop indicator could use to reflect the current status?06:58
rbalintseb128, no, just the log files, but since not u-u is the only background apt frontend imo it would be better to query the lock file07:00
seb128rbalint, ideally we would probably like to display the number of pending updates to apply (and a time estimate? but I guess that would be more difficult)07:01
seb128(or % done estimate)07:01
seb128a "btw something has a lock" is useful but not that useful07:02
seb128software management tools do tell you that they fail working because there is a lock07:03
seb128by itself it's confusing unless you know what has the lock/why/how long it's still going to do things07:03
seb128otherwise you can't tell appart a "something crashed and left a stalled lock" from "u-u is applying update, it's done with 27 of the 30 pending ones, it should be done soon"07:04
rbalintdidrocks, seb128 just sent the email, thanks for the reminder07:37
seb128rbalint, thx!07:37
seb128rbalint, so, who is the person to talk to about maybe scheduling work to add a proper status reporting API to u-u? ;)07:38
seb128I've a feeling it's going to end up being too low priority to make it on the roadmap for next cycle, but I think it's worth having a discussion about it at least07:38
rbalintseb128, it would be me :-)07:38
seb128rbalint, :-)07:39
seb128I need to check with willcooke also if he believes that's important enough from a desktop side to commit to work on it07:39
seb128or if that's in a land of wishlists we are not likely going to be able to work on07:39
rbalintseb128, in general i agree we should let users know that something is going on when the system is working hard, i see devel as a special case07:40
seb128right, I don't care so much about devel07:40
seb128but that problem exists in stable series as well07:40
rbalintseb128, and package upgrades should take a few seconds tops07:40
rbalintseb128, i have a few work items around that07:41
seb128on my inspiron test machine regenerating the locales when there is a libc update takes like 3 minutes by itself07:41
rbalintseb128, imo this is the problem, not the indicator07:42
seb128I think the "few seconds" depends a lot of what is in the upgrade and your hardware/disk07:42
didrocksthe issue is that packages are installed grouped by grouped07:42
didrocksnot in one apt transaction07:42
seb128kernel updates and regenerating the initrd also take a while07:42
didrocksI don't know why there is this design07:43
seb128didrocks, that wouldn't make a difference on the "can lock the apt db for a long time"07:43
rbalintseb128, initrd should be lz407:43
didrocksseb128: it does add more time though, as apt everytime recompute the dep coherence07:43
rbalintdidrocks, upgrades are grouped to gracefully stop when needed between them, so you can shut down your system07:44
seb128didrocks, it's a problem but I think it's orthogonal, even if we changed that, generating locales would still take 3 min on the inspiron and the apt db could still be locked for 10 min on a "non trivial" update which includes kernel and libc07:44
didrocksI think the granularity is a little too small. Like 7 "transactions" in a 45 seconds sounds wrong07:45
rbalintdidrocks, /usr/share/doc/unattended-upgrades/NEWS.Debian.gz , 0.95 entry07:45
didrocksseb128: yeah, but you suffer from fsyncing then 7 times instead of one, which is what adds up07:45
didrocksI guess an intermediate granularity may be worth exploring (but we need to have an idea of the estimate time to isntall this group of packages, which is hard)07:46
rbalintdidrocks, i'm sorry but no, one failing package would fail the whole set07:47
didrocksfailing package is rare, so then a fallback on package by package is doable07:48
didrockswhich is more code, but more smartness to add to the system as well07:48
rbalintdidrocks, i plan further speed optimization of debs and u-u07:49
rbalintdidrocks, i'm thinking about randomizing the order of sets which is expected to cause bigger sets07:50
didrocksinteresting idea07:50
rbalintdidrocks, to avoid a single broken package blocking the installation of bigger sets07:51
mwhudsonwho do i talk to about07:52
mwhudsonapt-esm-hook: hook.cc:186: int main(int, char**): Assertion `ppid == getppid_of("self")' failed.07:52
mwhudsonAborted (core dumped)07:52
mwhudsonbreaking all the livefs builds07:52
mwhudsone.g. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/disco/ubuntu-server-live/+build/16194707:52
mwhudsonjuliank: do you know about this one? ^^07:52
seb128rbalint, anyway, back to other topics/work for me, thx for the discussion, it was interesting! and good to know you are more optimizations planned :) (also you might hear again from me on the topic if we decide to do the indicator, I might then bother you with how to best get the info we need out of u-u)08:01
rbalintseb128, thank you too!08:34
rbalintseb128, regarding indicating u-u's state i opened a bug some time ago and i think this is more annoying than the morning u-u runs LP: #18035808:38
ubottuLaunchpad bug 180358 in firefox (Ubuntu) "news paper cant read malayalam in firefox browser" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18035808:38
seb128rbalint, I guess you lack a digit in that bug number?08:39
rbalintLP: #180358108:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1803581 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "PrepareForShutdown() signal from logind is not handled" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/180358108:40
seb128rbalint, thx08:42
juliankmwhudson: oh oh09:08
juliankso I assume the problem is that there is no grandparent process of the hook09:09
juliankbut that's odd09:09
juliankno hang on09:13
juliankit's got no /proc/self I guess09:13
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danyspin97Can the distro revision of a package be numbered like -1ubuntuY.Z ?12:05
danyspin97Does ubuntuY.Z instead represents the series that the package applies to?12:06
rbasakdanyspin97: you might find my writeup helpful: http://www.justgohome.co.uk/blog/2015/01/ubuntu-package-versions.html12:10
rbasakdanyspin97: also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update_the_packaging12:10
danyspin97rbasak: Thank you12:36
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danyspin97rbasak: > A tilde (~) is defined to sort before anything else. Is there any article/reference I can read more about this for PPA?15:59
rbasakdanyspin97: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA/BuildingASourcePackage maybe? And https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-version for the actual spec, which should help it all make sense.16:02
danyspin97rbasak: Ah, I see. It wasn't clear to me that ~ was in the Debian specification. Thank you!16:10
tsimonq2vorlon, cyphermox: Any reason why the mokutils in Disco/Cosmic hasn't been upstreamed to Debian? There's an open RC bug in Debian citing Much Brokenness.17:11
cyphermoxyou mean the int-signedness patch?17:15
cyphermoxbecause everything else is just upstream.17:15
tsimonq2All of it. :)17:18
tsimonq2vorlon is the maintainer, which is why I pinged.17:18
cyphermoxI'm sure vorlon would have no issues sponsoring your upload to update it17:18
tsimonq2I'm a DD, I can upload myself if vorlon acks my NMU. ;)17:19
cyphermoxI don't want to speak for him but I'm reasonably sure that would be just fine ;)17:19
tsimonq2I mean, unless he wants to do it. :P17:19
tsimonq2cyphermox: One other reason I pinged is, I don't exactly know what I should test...17:21
tsimonq2I would assume I should do some testing prior to an NMU.17:22
vorlontsimonq2: that RC bug should be downgraded, "this howto I followed somewhere didn't work thus mokutils is completely unusable" is not RC17:23
vorlonbut it's reasonable to also fix17:24
tsimonq2vorlon: How do you want to do this? 0-day NMU, DELAYED NMU, you do it...?17:26
vorlontsimonq2: you adopt the package? ;)17:27
tsimonq2vorlon: Only if I can add you and cyphermox as comaintainers ;)17:28
tsimonq2Sure, why not17:28
tsimonq2I mean, if you're serious, I can take it off your hands...17:28
vorlontsimonq2: I am serious; I'm not maintaining it, the Vcs-Bzr field points to an absolete location, there's no increase in my Debian time committment on the horizon17:29
tsimonq2ack :)17:30
tsimonq2cyphermox: I'll still offer to add you as a comaintainer ^^^17:31
[rg]is there a regular expression package names conform to?18:28
tsimonq2[rg]: Try looking in Debian policy for that.18:39
teward[rg]: though I don't think there's a *regex* that they conform to, more like a package naming convention instead...18:43
[rg]teward: ok that convention should be similar to man page style option descriptons right18:44
infinityteward: The naming convention can certainly be expressed as a regex.18:46
tewardinfinity: it can?  *blinks* got such a regex?18:46
sarnoldso long as it doesn't require eg balanced parens.. :D18:46
infinity"Package names (both source and binary, see Package) must consist only of lower case letters (a-z), digits (0-9), plus (+) and minus (-) signs, and periods (.). They must be at least two characters long and must start with an alphanumeric character."18:46
infinityteward: No, I don't have said regex handy, but given any algorithm describing how to construct a string can be expressed as a regex, I leave it as an exercise to the user.18:47
infinity[rg]: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-source18:47
[rg]infinity: yes I am fine doing that, was just looking for docs, thanks18:48
infinity[a-z][a-z0-9+-.]. seems about right.18:48
tewardinfinity: i must have missed that part, guess being tired hinders that side of the brain :)18:48
infinityMaybe with some escaping necessary, depending on the language one's embedding that in. :P18:50
ddstreetrbasak so with git ubuntu, with the pre-commit/post-checkout hooks, are we forced to use --no-verify with affected repos *forever*?  that's super annoying19:22
ddstreetoh, i guess someone can upload a pkg removing the dir - just can't do it from git19:23
vorlonseb128: hi, don't know if you saw my follow-up on LP: #1800542, but I could use some help figuring out how to provide proper debug info for nm-openvpn19:27
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1800542 in network-manager-openvpn (Ubuntu) "OpenVPN connection not stable after upgrade to 18.10 (udp, ipv6)" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/180054219:27
seb128vorlon, hey, I saw and I've it on my backlog to reply to, the week has been a bit crazy but hopefully on monday (I don't know offhand what changed/why the intructions are not working so I need to poke a bit)20:20
seb128but eow for now, have a nice w.e!20:23
rbasakddstreet: you can remove the hook if you like. It does nothing apart from detect and warn you.20:43
rbasakddstreet: it's a workaround.20:43
ddstreetrbasak well i can't remove it, snaps are r/o filesystems... :)20:44
ddstreetbut i can ignore it20:44
rbasakddstreet: I mean remove the hook from your local checkout directory20:45
rbasakddstreet: it's installed in .git/hooks. git ubuntu clone does that.20:45
ddstreetnice definitely will remove that then20:45
rbasakddstreet: the thing to note is that it can break your build20:45
rbasakSome builds require the empty directory to be present, and your checkout won't have it.20:46
rbasakHence the warning, etc.20:46
cyphermoxvorlon: you don't need to restart NM, but if you had just "closed" or lost the connection, then you need to wait a little bit before you change the .name file; then it'll work fine.20:49
vorloncyphermox: how long is a little bit?20:50
cyphermoxat most 30 seconds, I'd say20:50
cyphermoxthere'd be a line in syslog that says something about killing the service IIRC20:51
cyphermoxalso, make sure to run nm-openvpn-service as root20:51
tsimonq2vorlon: (mokutil uploaded to Debian)22:48
Unit193tsimonq2: Hmm, I seem to recall you claiming you'd fix pastebinit.22:54
tsimonq2Oh, did I?22:55
tsimonq2Got a link?22:55
Unit193Link to?22:57
sarnoldhe'd link you if he could, but pastebinit's busted...23:00
* sarnold runs23:00
wxlarc paste works wonderful (of course you need a phabricator instance) :)23:01
Unit193Only on disco and busted, err, buster.23:01
Unit193wxl: Sounds broken to me.23:01
wxlworks for me XD23:02
Unit193sarnold: You popped up last time too, < sarnold> python :( || < sarnold> tsimonq2: just a recurring sadness23:03
tsimonq2Unit193: A link to what I'm supposed to be looking at.23:03
Unit193Ah, Debian 916372, LP 181223223:04
ubottuDebian bug 916372 in pastebinit "pastebinit: multiple deprecation warnings under Python 3.7" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/91637223:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1812232 in pastebinit (Ubuntu) "Deprecation warnings" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/181223223:04
Unit193Patch attached in the Debian one, from someone that has a clue too.23:04
tsimonq2Unit193: DELAYED/5 .23:15
tsimonq2Too late for Disco, unless you think it's SRU-worthy.23:15
sarnoldit probably is if it's going to shout at the user every time they touch it23:15
Unit193Got a dsc I can backport to a disco PPA? :)23:16
tsimonq2sarnold: Good point.23:24
tsimonq2Unit193: You mean the one you can find in the Debian archive once it's processed? ;)23:25
valoriepastebinit is so useful when someone's in trouble23:51
valoriebad install or so23:51
Unit193Or to paste debdiffs, git format-patch, config, etc, etc.23:53
valorieright, I don't spend much time in the console, but for those who do, I imagine endlessly useful23:53

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