lotuspsychjegood morning to all09:12
lotuspsychjei have a question about making LP more efficiently for developers as the current situation we see alot of users creating bugs that really arent usefull, manual adds or support questions that really dont fit on LP09:16
lotuspsychjethis said, would be nice to think of something to lighter the work of developers09:17
marcustomlinsonhey, you guys aware of https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/680736?09:21
marcustomlinsonok no worries, I see you're on it, thanks09:26
lotuspsychjemarcustomlinson: you might direct mail that to someone09:27
lotuspsychjenot sure who but :p09:27
marcustomlinsonyeah thanks, I see though that wgrant is on it09:27
cjwatsonI've suspended the user and will clean up09:31
cjwatsonlotuspsychje: Direct mail gets to us no faster than answers.launchpad.net/launchpad tickets09:31
lotuspsychjeoh ok cjwatson09:32
cjwatsonSo please don't suggest that09:32
cjwatsonAnd the question about efficiency is too general to be actionable, really.  We always want to help make developers more efficient but being drawn into a super-general discussion about it is ... inefficient :)09:45
lotuspsychjecjwatson: we have a channel where ubuntu bugs are flood as news, and we noticing alot of bugs that really dont fit there09:46
lotuspsychjecjwatson: isnt there something that could be done?09:48
cjwatsonIf you have concrete suggestions then by all means make them09:48
cjwatsonBut Ubuntu is a big user-facing project and there are always going to be people who are a bit confused for one reason or another09:49
cjwatsonSo the goal cannot possibly be that nobody files things in the wrong places09:49
lotuspsychjecjwatson: i agree there will be always confused users, but its the system allowing them to file their confusion09:52
lotuspsychjecjwatson: would be nice to find a way to only file serious bugs09:52
cjwatsonThat would be horrible!09:54
cjwatsonThere are lots of non-serious bugs that nevertheless need to be filed (and hopefully fixed)09:54
cjwatsonAnyway, unless there's something concrete I need to do some other urgent stuff before meetings next week, sorry09:54
lotuspsychjeok np09:55
dkglotuspsychje: i think both you and cjwatson are right -- it's confusing and distracting to have these floods of confusing/confused issues; *and* it's necessary to accept most of the flood in order to learn what people are actually running into.  writing a quality bug report is a skill that needs to be learned, and yet unlearned users find some of the most interesting problems.15:30
lotuspsychjedkg: im only concerned about the work all the developers do, filtering out alot of bugs, they have better work to do i hope you understand where im going?15:32
dkglotuspsychje: i've seen projects that actively discourage bug reporting by new/novice users, and that leads to two outcomes: (a) very few people are involved in the project, and (b) everyone who remains is so used to the idiosyncrasies of the project that they can't even imagine the improvements that a new user could imagine.15:32
dkglotuspsychje: i totally understand15:32
dkgone approach is to build out the developer team15:32
dkgcan you find not-yet-developers who understand the system well enough to figure out how to re-file?15:32
dkgcan you encourage regular bug reporters with good bug reporting skills to triage some of the flood of confusion into more productive channels?15:33
lotuspsychjedkg: yeah that latter is a nice idea, involve more volunteers into our bug flood channel15:34
dkgthe skills needed to redirect a confused bug report into a productive outcome are *vastly* different than the skills needed to craft a technical fix, though they both require some level of detailed knowledge of the system in question15:34
lotuspsychjedkg: by nature i also want to seek after the root problem of whats causing this15:34
dkgi understand -- but i think cjwatson pointed you toward the root -- the root is that it is a large user-facing project, with lots of users15:35
dkgby definition, many of those users will be unskilled at bug reporting15:35
dkgso either you can say "we don't want you" to those users (and lose their contributions)15:35
lotuspsychjedkg: on ubuntu for example, i found the docs filing a bug report easy, and not mentioning the irc support channel15:35
dkgor you can say "let us know!  we'll help you figure it out."15:35
dkgeven using IRC well for bug triage is a learned skill :)15:36
lotuspsychjedkg: this is an example, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/182850515:37
ubot5`Ubuntu bug 1828505 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "sudo apt-get upgrade E: Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock-frontend - open (11: Resource temporarily unavailable) E: Unable to acquire the dpkg frontend lock (/var/lib/dpkg/lock-frontend), is another process using it?" [Undecided,New]15:37
dkggood bug triage requires (a) knowledge of how the system is set up, to figure out what component really is likely to be failing, (b) empathy and communication skills to reflect on the understanding, goals, problems, and frustrations of the original bug reporter, and to keep them engaged in the process so that you can be sure their concerns are addressed, (c) technical skill in being able to craft a15:37
dkgreplication of the reported problem, and (d) imagination, to conceive of how a problem *might* be fixed15:38
lotuspsychjedkg: yeah im really talking about to filter out the very unusefull stuff15:38
lotuspsychjenot the bugs that actually could make sense15:38
dkgwhy is that report unuseful?15:39
dkgthe person is doing a reasonable thing -- trying to upgrade their system15:39
dkgthey ran into an error message that they didn't understand15:39
dkgthat's a real problem15:39
lotuspsychjedkg: it happens all the time on ubuntu15:39
lotuspsychjeand there's probably tons of dupes for that15:39
dkgthat particular error message happens all the time?15:39
dkgand lots of people don't understand it?15:40
dkgthat's a real bug, then15:40
dkgthis is where part (d) comes in15:40
dkghow can you make that situation better?15:40
dkgi can imagine a couple different approaches15:40
dkg 0) avoid the need for a lock in dpkg  -- this is technically ambitious, but it shouldn't be taken off the table15:41
dkg 1) make the error message more understandable15:41
lotuspsychjedkg: well i think we need to divide Os support questions and serious bugs15:41
dkg     (e.g. point to a web page that has documented explanation)15:41
dkg 2) when receiving that error message, actively interrogate the system and figure out how to report what is actually holding the lock, and make the report describe the results of that interrogation instead.15:42
dkgif you don't think that an issue that is reported "tons" of times on the issue tracker is a "serious bug" then i think we don't think about bug reporting the same way :)15:42
dkgas cjwatson said, this is a user-facing project.  if users are annoyed by something, it's a bug :)15:43
lotuspsychjedkg: well yes i agree its a bug, but when you see this issue for 10 years it looses some interest right15:43
dkgno, if i see the issue for 10 years, it *gains* interest15:43
dkgthe stuff that everyone has been ignoring for 10 years but is still causing problems?  that's the meat of it right there.15:44
lotuspsychjeit surely is a deeper problem15:44
dkgindeed, something worth documenting clearly and figuring out how to fix15:45
dkgif you want to avoid the flood of those particular bugs, the best way is to fix them :)15:46
lotuspsychjedkg: let me ask you this, what if tomorrow someone starts flooding LP with the same bug over and over15:46
dkgone person, as a malicious attack?15:47
dkgban that person and close all their tickets15:47
lotuspsychjemalicious, or the same computer making the same system error on boot15:47
lotuspsychjedkg: its also very easy for a new user, to create a LP bug after making the account, even without experience15:50
lotuspsychjethat means anyone can file anything, serious or not15:50
lotuspsychjedkg: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/182666715:53
ubot5`Ubuntu bug 1826667 in gnome-terminal (Ubuntu) "MY UBUNTU IS HACKED SECURITY === ZEROO LOOK AT MY ACCOUNT HISTORY THERE IS SOMEONE ON IT" [Undecided,New]15:53
ubot5`Ubuntu bug 1826667 in gnome-terminal (Ubuntu) "MY UBUNTU IS HACKED SECURITY === ZEROO LOOK AT MY ACCOUNT HISTORY THERE IS SOMEONE ON IT" [Undecided,New]15:54
lotuspsychjesame sorry15:55
lotuspsychjejust some examples of things we get15:55
cjwatsonSo ... somebody should probably close that bug, and malice is a different thing that we can and do deal with administratively when it's reported to us16:03
cjwatsonI do think that most of the automatic stuff should be redirected to errors.ubuntu.com which is better able to deal with aggregate reports of that kind (most of it is, but there are surely some bits that haven't yet been, and somebody could productively work on that)16:04
lotuspsychjeok thanks cjwatson16:07
cjwatsonIt was an early design error to use LP bugs for lots of aggregate crash reports, because there was nothing better at the time16:08
cjwatsonaggregatable, rather16:09
rnpalmerSpam comment in bug 28366617:54
ubot5`bug 283666 in openoffice.org (Ubuntu) "[upstream] impress slideshow does not show cropped .eps images" [Low,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/28366617:54
cjwatsonRemoved, slightly too late for rnpalmer to see18:57

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