[15:33] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: with respect to bug #1830201 How is Studio different from xubuntu?
[16:15] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm not 100% sure. Came up in a Foundations Team meeting earlier, afaict.
[16:29] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: As I look at the panel, looks like we differ a lot.
[16:29] <Eickmeyer> Should I change it to match in terms of layout?
[16:29]  * Eickmeyer has also asked xnox about it
[16:30] <OvenWerks> I don't know. The easiest thing as said in the bug report, is to just add another package and be happy.
[16:32] <Eickmeyer> Yes, but as I look at the logs, we haven't changed our default panel layout since 2015, whereas Xubuntu has changed it as recently as this past September.
[16:32] <Eickmeyer> Makes sense, as I have seen our default panel as a bit glitchy on a default install.
[16:33]  * OvenWerks is wondering what ubiquity is and what it looks like... I don't use hardly ever I am guessing
[16:34] <Eickmeyer> Ubiquity is the system installer, i.e. how you get it onto your system. It's in the live ISO.
[16:34] <Eickmeyer> Basically, this is important as it could make or break our ISOs, so I'm giving this highest priortity.
[16:35] <OvenWerks> Ah, Ok, I sort of thought so but wasn't sure
[16:36] <OvenWerks> The only problem I see with changing to whatever xubuntu is doing is if the sw chooser plugin would still work.
[16:36] <Eickmeyer> Right now, I'm comparing our /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/panel/default.xml to the Xubuntu one to see if we should make some changes.
[16:36] <Eickmeyer> xfce4-volumed needs to be dropped from our seed for sure.
[16:37]  * Eickmeyer has noticed running the pulseaudio panel plugin runs much smoother than xfce4-volumed
[16:38] <OvenWerks> certainly now is the best time to make changes so we have at least one release before LTS.
[16:40] <Eickmeyer> Right.
[16:40] <Eickmeyer> xnox wasn't aware that we've been using Xfce since 12.04, so he thought that bug applied to us.
[16:40] <Eickmeyer> It might not.
[16:45] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RJ7C2cQn4w/
[16:45] <Eickmeyer> In other words, it doesn't actually apply to us. So, false alarm.
[16:45] <Eickmeyer> However, we still need to drop the indicator-* stuff from the seed.
[16:46] <Eickmeyer> He invalidated the bug.
[16:56] <OvenWerks> Aside from your first try, I haven't heard from anybody with regard to menu-add
[16:57] <OvenWerks> I guess not many people follw the devel list
[16:57] <OvenWerks> I mentioned it in the the user irc channel as well
[16:58] <OvenWerks> So I guess unless one of us actually finds a bug we should get it released so we can add it to the seed soon as we can.
[16:58] <OvenWerks> The same is probably true of controls
[16:59] <OvenWerks> There has to be an actual release before bugs can be filed against things
[17:20] <Eickmeyer> Which sucks, but it's reality.
[17:20] <OvenWerks> I am guessing If I want to make changes to menu I should do so.
[17:22] <Eickmeyer> Yep. I'm working on the panel. Just filed bug 1832063 which should get Ross's attention as well.
[17:22] <Eickmeyer> Er, bug 1830263
[17:31] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: does default setting still do all the xfce stuff or is there something for xfce and something else for generic settings?
[17:32]  * OvenWerks guesses he needs to reclone defaultsettings
[17:32] <Eickmeyer> Default settings does some default configuation stuff for the Ubuntu Studio session, Xfce has its own defaults that don't require a file.
[17:33] <Eickmeyer> I just made the changes, but I need Ross to fix and push the meta before I can push default-settings to the repo.
[17:33] <OvenWerks> Well we have a whole /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/ tree somewhere
[17:33] <Eickmeyer> That's in -default-settings.
[17:34] <OvenWerks> That is xfce specific.
[17:34] <Eickmeyer> Okay, then that's what we've got.
[17:34] <Eickmeyer> The problem is that the indicator-* packages need to be dropped along with xfce4-volumed since they're all-but depricated.
[17:35] <OvenWerks> So what does xubuntu use?
[17:35] <Eickmeyer> I outlined that in the bug report.
[17:35] <OvenWerks> k
[17:36] <Eickmeyer> Essentially, xfce4-statusnotifier-pugin and xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin.
[17:36] <Eickmeyer> *plugin
[17:36] <OvenWerks> so long as there is still a systray/indicatortray I am happy(ish)
[17:36] <Eickmeyer> Yes, that's what statusnotifier is.
[17:37] <OvenWerks> I am thinking of things like qjackctl/qasmixer etc. that have systray icons.
[17:37] <Eickmeyer> Systray will still be there. That's not changing.
[17:39] <OvenWerks> So I should look at menu and default-settings then.
[17:39] <Eickmeyer> I already made the changes to the panel in default-settings.
[17:40] <OvenWerks> WRT using X-US-* categories: I think we should only use those in categories we spec in -menu and not in the applications.menu and settings.menu which are xfce specific.
[17:41] <Eickmeyer> Good call.,
[17:42] <OvenWerks> For that matter, I am thinking that I should remove the Audio settings from the settings.menu and make it more (or completely) stock
[17:42] <OvenWerks> I will move them to Audio Production->utilities
[17:43] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Here's the changes I made to the panel (really, a lot of copy/paste from xubuntu-default-settings): https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Wt3MgKQB3C/
[17:43] <Eickmeyer> You'll see the systray is still there.
[17:45] <OvenWerks> OK
[18:22] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: How much do we know about ladi ladish gladish? is it still in development? being maintained?
[18:28] <OvenWerks> All I get in searches is companies named, people named, places named...
[18:31] <OvenWerks> commits in 2011 and 14
[18:32] <Eickmeyer> I'll do a little research.
[18:33] <Eickmeyer> Hmm... 2014 for ladish and gladish....
[18:34] <Eickmeyer> ladish.org is dead.
[18:35] <Eickmeyer> Latest fork is https://github.com/davex25/ladish
[18:36] <OvenWerks> Now may be a good time to remove the ldai group of programs
[18:36] <OvenWerks> *ladi
[18:37] <OvenWerks> They were the only audio bits in settings manager->audio
[18:38] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. Asking in #lad, tagged you.
[18:39] <Eickmeyer> I'd also ask in #opensourcemusicians, but they can be a little hostile there.
[18:39] <Eickmeyer> Biggest thing I'm worried about here, as you are, is bitrot.
[18:46] <OvenWerks> Removing /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/xfce-settings-manager.menu removes the two ladi bits from the menu alltogether
[18:46] <OvenWerks>  I am not sure what else we may be missing.
[18:47] <Eickmeyer> Other than removing them from the seed?
[18:47] <OvenWerks> This seems to be new, because on my wife's xubuntu+studio machine they do show up in settings under other
[18:48] <OvenWerks> (16.04 I think)
[18:48] <Eickmeyer> Probably just the default.
[18:49] <Eickmeyer> I have them in settings/audio production
[18:50] <OvenWerks> Yes they should be there, but only because we modify the settings menu file. This is not something that translates well to other DEs
[18:50] <OvenWerks> When I remove our version of the file and so use the stock xfce version... things go less well
[18:51] <OvenWerks> But seem to be ok in 16.04
[18:52] <OvenWerks> I will look some more, xubuntu may not use stock either.
[18:53] <Eickmeyer> Looks like ladi(sh)(-tools) might be safe to remove.
[18:55] <OvenWerks> It was big in the days when the average session was qtrackter for midi, hydrogen for drums, ardour for audio as well as an asortment of jack client synths.
[18:55] <OvenWerks> so some kind of session manager was really nice to have
[18:55] <Eickmeyer> Well, this is the only one left: http://non.tuxfamily.org/nsm/
[18:56] <Eickmeyer> Packaging any of the non-tools was very difficult last I tried.
[18:56] <OvenWerks>  but sinse Ardour got midi and most of the good synths became plugins... and we have two very nice drum synths.... development stopped.
[18:57] <OvenWerks> Non-stuff is not well up with things either. Most of the plugins don't work with the mixer... cause it only deals with LV1
[18:58] <OvenWerks> The owner has lately been hard to keep track of too.
[18:58] <OvenWerks> But yes nsm is the recomended tool
[18:59] <Eickmeyer> I'm not a fan of Non-Mixer since it lacks LV2, but NSM might be (barely) worth it.
[18:59] <OvenWerks> It would give us a session manager.
[18:59] <Eickmeyer> The other thing is that Xfce has some session management built-in, and Carla can manage connections fairly well.
[19:11] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If we can package nsm, I'd say it's probably time to remove ladi.
[19:12] <OvenWerks> do you remember what problems there were with packaging? Can it be worse than Carla?
[19:12] <Eickmeyer> I remember LP had trouble building it, but that was non-mixer, not nsm.
[19:12] <OvenWerks> OBS would be nice too
[19:13] <Eickmeyer> OBS is already in the repos, just needs to be added to the seed.
[19:13]  * Eickmeyer wrote an email about that
[19:14] <OvenWerks> I was looking for it earlier and just found open build service
[19:14] <OvenWerks> I guess I didn't look down the list far enough
[19:14] <Eickmeyer> !info obs-studio
[19:14] <Eickmeyer> That's a lie.
[19:15] <Eickmeyer> !info obs-studio bionic
[19:15] <Eickmeyer> ???
[19:15] <Eickmeyer> ubottu is broken.
[19:15] <OvenWerks> I just started the download in 18.04
[19:17] <Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/obs-studio
[19:17] <Eickmeyer> It's SO there.
[19:17] <Eickmeyer> The version in Bionic is a bit behind.
[19:17]  * Eickmeyer might make a backport package if we put it in the seed
[19:19] <Eickmeyer> Inherited from Debian.
[19:22] <Eickmeyer> Just made bug 1830271
[19:26]  * Eickmeyer just ran Mixbus, and was pleasantly surprised wiht how well it blends with the Materia theme
[19:28] <OvenWerks> Hey OBS looks pretty good. I am looking for a way of doing remote meeting attendance
[19:29] <OvenWerks> I am thinking stream plus irc
[19:31] <OvenWerks> Video has lag :)
[19:32] <Eickmeyer> Yes. Video always has lag.
[19:32] <Eickmeyer> OBS is nice from a live video perspective, too, since it can do camera switching and stuff. 
[19:34] <Eickmeyer> I believe it's Jack-aware, too.
[19:34] <OvenWerks> Yes, but defaults to pulse
[19:36] <Eickmeyer> As do most things.
[19:38] <OvenWerks> Hmm Carla shows up in two places. And Carla-control only in video
[19:38] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's kinda odd that it shows up there.
[19:39] <OvenWerks> menu bug
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> Can you fix?
[19:39] <OvenWerks> yes, I have some menu work to do anyway.
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> Or do I need to patch the .desktop file?
[19:39] <Eickmeyer> Okay, cool.
[19:40] <OvenWerks> Best leave the desktop file alone. Hardcode in menu :P
[19:40] <Eickmeyer> Good call.
[19:40] <OvenWerks> (like so many things)
[19:40] <Eickmeyer> hehe
[19:41] <OvenWerks> obs works in windows too.
[19:41] <OvenWerks> That is probably a good thing. The remote meeting participation thing is something where I am likely to be the remote party.
[19:42] <OvenWerks> Though I could do stream a hangouts window
[19:43] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. OBS is everywhere. Twitch streamers, YouTube streamers/recorders... it's pretty transcendent.
[19:43] <OvenWerks> WHat would be the best way to stream to a select audience?
[19:44] <OvenWerks> As in login maybe not required, but also not listed in some list of current streams either
[19:45] <Eickmeyer> YouTube can do that. Just set it to private.
[19:45] <OvenWerks> I don't know if my uplink speed is good enough for very many clients.
[19:45] <Eickmeyer> Except that would requrie login.
[19:46] <OvenWerks> and each person would have to have a google/youtube account
[19:46] <OvenWerks> facebook is same problem
[19:47] <Eickmeyer> There's a ton of services, but you're probably looking at a custom server.
[19:47] <OvenWerks> If it could be audio only, mumble would be fine on my server I think.
[19:48] <Eickmeyer> Yeah. Mumble has worked for me in the past.
[19:49] <Eickmeyer> Wow. OBS looks great with the Materia theme too, almost as if we did it on purpose! XD
[19:51] <OvenWerks> back to the settings manager... It seems the reason I used a custom config file is that stock does not include "Setting" or but rather settings and
[19:52] <OvenWerks> so the normal setup is that there is a Settings folder on the menu and anything that doesn't end up in the settings manager shows up in the settings folder.
[19:52] <OvenWerks> I felt that having both a settings manager and a settings folder was not great.
[19:53] <OvenWerks> So I just dumped anything with "Settings" into the manager.
[19:55] <OvenWerks> This is actually a great solution for xfce when that was all we supported but does not follow on other DEs and may in fact end up without some settings tools showing up on those DEs
[19:59] <Eickmeyer> Yes. This is true. Probably best to fix that.
[20:01] <OvenWerks> fix in which way?
[20:01] <OvenWerks> Should we add a settings folder back in?
[20:05] <Eickmeyer> I think that would be a good idea. We need to keep it as DE agnostic as possible now that -installer is what we made it.
[20:08] <OvenWerks> Ok, we will go back to the stock settings manager menu file then and remove the part of our custom menu that doesn't show settings
[20:17] <OvenWerks> OBS does not seem to take only the output of windows included in the video :P
[20:19] <OvenWerks> I guess that makes sense... but it does not allow easy mixing of levels from two windows without using pavucontrol
[20:28] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, unfortunately. I thought it had a built-in mixer?
[20:30] <OvenWerks> It does, but inputs from pulse do not include playback sources
[20:30] <OvenWerks> It is the whole desktop or nothing
[20:31] <OvenWerks> so... two P-jk bridges, mixer two OBS jack inputs :)
[20:31] <OvenWerks> Actually mixer not needed
[20:32] <OvenWerks> It seems the best thing is to turn off the desktop audio and pulse stuff and go all jack.
[20:48] <Eickmeyer> Interesting.
[20:53] <OvenWerks> Well for most people they are only doing one desktop app so its fine as is
[21:13] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Am I removing the ladi hard codes from menu?
[21:14] <OvenWerks>  (or moving them perhaps?)
[21:14] <Eickmeyer> Let's keep them in there until I determine if I can get nsm packaged
[21:14]  * Eickmeyer is in a meeting
[21:14] <OvenWerks> I think though that I will move them into audio utilities
[21:14] <OvenWerks> sorry
[21:19] <Eickmeyer> !info mozo
[21:28] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Per Wimpress, try that^ for what we're trying to do with -menu-add. Might be we're trying to reinvent the wheel. He's willing to drop the MATE reccommends to a suggests if it works for us.
[21:36] <OvenWerks> Depends on mate-menus
[21:38] <OvenWerks> mate is based on gnome3? or is that the one that is a fork of gnome2?
[21:49] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: mozo's depends seem to go deep into Mate teritory. Mozo depends on mate-menus - depends on python-mate-menu - depends on libmate-menu2
[21:49] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Wimpress is talking about dropping those requirements.
[21:50] <OvenWerks> That is three levels so far 
[21:50] <OvenWerks> There is only so far I willing to mess up my system to try it out...
[21:56] <OvenWerks> this page https://wiki.mate-desktop.org/applications says mozo is a fork of alacart...
[21:56]  * OvenWerks notes that in his trials of Mate he found that they use the same broken menu config file as gnome 2
[21:57] <OvenWerks> Part of the reason alacart does not work correctly is because of this broken file.
[21:58]  * OvenWerks has filed a bug with patch to fix this file which was marked invalid/won't fix.
[22:00] <OvenWerks> Alacart atempts to do the best it considering the menu config is broken and ends up being frustrating
[22:00] <OvenWerks> I don't see how Mozo if truely forked from alacart would get around these problems
[22:21] <Eickmeyer> According to Wimpress, it's completely and 100% XDG-compliant as opposed to Alacarte, so there's that. They (MATE) had the same problems with Alacarte and Menulibre that we do, so he brought this up in the flavors meeting we just finished.
[22:23] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
[22:23] <Eickmeyer> If we can get Wimpress in here to comment on it, I think that would answer your questions about it.
[22:24] <Eickmeyer> I'm not saying stop your work on -menu-add, but we might have a solution. idk.
[22:31] <OvenWerks> menu-add is ready so far as I know... except I now need to remove the settings subfolders I added :)
[22:31] <OvenWerks> But thats ok.
[22:35] <Eickmeyer> Ok
[22:37] <OvenWerks> I am guessing I should have attended the meeting too.
[22:37] <OvenWerks> Sorry
 We have another one next month :)
 https://doodle.com/poll/77cwt3ryxef7xxqh
[22:38] <OvenWerks> :)
[22:39] <OvenWerks> tsimonq2: does that table show my time or server?
[22:40] <tsimonq2> OvenWerks: Your time.
[22:40] <OvenWerks> cool
[22:42] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You can also feel free to join #ubuntu-flavors if you want to coordinate there. :)
[22:48] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like you triggered a build without a git sync?
[22:59] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I didn't try to start any builds today
[22:59] <Eickmeyer> Weird. -menu-add just tried to build/upload and errored-out.
[22:59] <OvenWerks> Which repo?
[22:59] <Eickmeyer> Autobuilds
[22:59] <OvenWerks> I don't think I touched menu-add sinse yesterday
[23:00] <Eickmeyer> Very, very odd.
[23:01] <OvenWerks> 2will look in a few minutes
[23:03] <Eickmeyer> No worries.
[23:06] <OvenWerks> I did switch on daily bu8ilds yesterday maybe it rtied to build for that reason
[23:07] <Eickmeyer> Yeah, that would do it.
[23:08] <Eickmeyer> LP has intelligence issues. :P
[23:08] <Eickmeyer> ubottu: Thanks
[23:08] <Eickmeyer> ubottu: What are launchpad's issues?
[23:09]  * Eickmeyer is out
[23:18] <OvenWerks> Basically it tried to do a build that was already done.