[07:43] <ladda> i have a problem with connecting with my wifi on Lubuntu 18.10 32-bit
[08:00] <toyata_swift> i have a problem with connecting with my wifi in lubuntu 18.10 32-bit
[08:27] <toyata_swift> i have a problem with my wifi
[08:29] <kc2bez> !ask | toyata_swift
[10:57] <toyata_swift> Can any one hlep my with my wifi problem?
[12:25] <vincent> Hi
[12:25] <vincent> good morning
[12:27] <Guest50951> im having a trouble installing midori
[12:27] <Guest50951> can I get some help from someone?
[13:04] <VinnieVal> ok
[13:04] <VinnieVal> got my nickname now registered
[19:51] <sbaboz> why is the public folder not public?
[19:52] <wxl> good question
[19:52] <wxl> that's the way ubuntu set it up
[19:53] <wxl> apparently the intention is for either samba or web server sharing
[19:54] <wxl> i see nothing about the intention to share it with other users on the same system which is strange
[19:55] <sbaboz> yes, it's very strange that there is no default easy way for users on the same system to share files
[19:56] <sbaboz> why would they not give this possibility?
[19:56] <sbaboz> by default
[19:56] <wxl> that's a good question for the ubuntu developers :)
[19:57] <sbaboz> I would recommend the following solution: - Create a group for sharing, just call it "shared". - Add all users who should have access to the shared files to this group. - Create a directory outside of users homes, e.g. /shared for shared files. - Change group of this folder to the group for sharing and adjust group permissions. - Set group sticky bit for this shared folder.
[19:57] <sbaboz> (found online)
[19:58] <sbaboz> what do you think?
[19:58] <wxl> works as well as a bunch of other possibilities
[19:58] <sbaboz> but i want it to work also for the guest user
[19:58] <sbaboz> can you give me an advice?
[19:59] <sbaboz> please
[19:59] <wxl> THAT is hard
[19:59] <wxl> the only thing is to leave a folder outside of home that's open to anyone. very permissive permissions
[19:59] <sbaboz> where should i put the folder?
[20:00] <wxl> off of root
[20:00] <wxl>  /shared works
[20:01] <sbaboz> can i make default that if a file is put there it will automatically get permissions for everyone?
[20:02] <sbaboz> who should be the owner of the folder?
[20:03] <sbaboz> (not sure if it's important)
[20:09] <sbaboz> this permissions thing is very strange, because even if a file is put in the shared folder (without adjusting permissions) the other users won't be able to access it, right?
[20:10] <sbaboz> wxl: are you still here?
 patience please
 wxl is a busy person
[20:11] <sbaboz> sorry
 and to answer the question you can adjust the permissions ON /shared to give everyone access
 for example, `chmod 777 /shared` would give designated owner user, designated group user, and all other users/groups read/write/traverse on the directory
[20:11] <sbaboz> so any file put inside will get them automatically?
[20:12] <sbaboz> also guest user?
 most files that're 'new' default to a 'readable by all' state, if you need to alter the default permissions for FILES inside there to be read/write by everyone then that's a different story
 and 'guest' user is... a little trickier since that's more jailed than anything
 (and not really straight 'perms' per-se)
[20:14] <sbaboz> if the file is readable but not modifiable, one can make a copy and modify the copy, right?
[20:14] <sbaboz> so it should work...
 in theory, but i haven't tested it
 you can GRANT write perms with ACL changes though, change the default access masks
 but that's also nonstandard and can be fragile at times
[20:15] <sbaboz> and i am a beginner :)
[20:16] <sbaboz> acl?
[20:16] <sbaboz> what is <teward001>  ?
 Access Control Lists
 basically?   Extended permissions beyond straight chmod/chown
 but users should just be able to 'make a copy' and save that copy, but wouldn't be able to overwrite the existing one.  I came in late to this, sorry :)
 so i'm still catching up
[20:18] <teward> wxl: thought guest user was jailed btw
[20:18] <teward> separately from standard ACLs/perms
[20:19] <sbaboz> wxl said that if i make the shared folder in /  (and adjust permissions) then the guest user will be able to access it
 right that's why I poked wxl on IRC ;)
 because I could've sworn it was jailed specially under the hood
[20:20] <wxl> tbh i'm not sure. never bothered doing anything like this, and especially not for the guest user
[20:20] <teward> also I'm teward001 via the bot/telegram
[20:20] <teward> but teward here ;)
[20:21] <teward> wxl: 'cause I could've sworn it was specially jailed, but never dug super deep into it
[20:21] <teward> 'course I *disable* the guest account for security reasons, but...
[20:22] <sbaboz> ***** UBUNTU DEVELOPERS PLEASE GIVE A DEFAULT EASY WAY FOR USERS ON THE SAME SYSTEM TO SHARE FILES *****
[20:23] <sbaboz> (they must read these channels i suppose)
[20:23]  * teward looks left, looks right
[20:23] <teward> OH you mean the people who define default features, riiiight.  Yeah for security reasons I think they don't include that by default.  Just saying.
[20:23] <teward> sbaboz: let me write up a test and see if it works
[20:23] <teward> but you'll have to wait until I'm home in front of a VM
[20:24]  * teward is heading home from work shortlyu
[20:24] <sbaboz> thank you
[20:25] <wxl> the "recommended" way in ubuntu is to use samba or a web server, but the latter doesn't give read/write access and the former is a little much
[20:26] <sbaboz> Actually beginners use online sharing services to share files between local users (on the same system), it's ridiculous i think, is it not?
[20:27] <wxl> again, "public" is not meant for local users
[20:27] <sbaboz> It's something so basic, it's incredible they didn't put this feature
[20:27] <wxl> i've never had a need for it
[20:27] <sbaboz> but you can imagine that many people do, right?
[20:28] <sbaboz> and we are talking MILLIONS...
[20:28] <wxl> no
[20:28] <sbaboz> no?
[20:28] <wxl> nope
[20:28] <sbaboz> what do you mean?
[20:28] <wxl> i can't imagine that millions of people have such a need
[20:29] <sbaboz> how many total ubuntu users?
[20:29] <wxl> considering how many people have asked about it, 1
 5  if you include a special-case server I had to set up for a client
 6 if you include me being derp with containers but that's waaaay different
[20:30] <wxl> derpy indeed. lxc file push/pull is all you need
 7 if you include tsimonq2 trying to fumble his way through sysadmin
 um I mean :)\
 (disclosure: that's not meant as rudeness it's just friendly jabs between friends)
 *EODs and heads home*
[20:31] <sbaboz> Ubuntu is on tens of millions of machines... Even if you take only 1 out of 10 (with multiple users who are beginners) that's still a very large number...
[20:32] <wxl> i didn't mean 1 out of 10. i meant 1.
[20:32] <sbaboz> so why did you think it was strange?
[20:33] <wxl> because it's never been brought up, as i said
[20:33] <sbaboz> "i see nothing about the intention to share it with other users on the same system which is strange"
[20:33] <wxl> if it was so common of a need that certainly wouldn't be the case
[20:33] <sbaboz> searching online shows that i am far from being the only one... :)
[20:34] <wxl> afaik this is not a trivial thing to do in windows either
[20:34] <sbaboz> afaik?
[20:34] <wxl> it's just a non-trivial issue, especially considering security
[20:34] <wxl> as far as i knwo
[20:37] <sbaboz> I think we all want Ubuntu to be as easy as possible so that it can conquer the masses...
[20:37] <wxl> you need to read bug 1
[20:41] <sbaboz> icrosoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.  This is a bug which Ubuntu and other projects are meant to fix.
[20:41] <sbaboz> yes
[20:42] <sbaboz> I liked the motto "linux for human beings"
[20:42] <sbaboz> It has to be EASY!
[20:43] <sbaboz> We are not all born programmers...
 wxl: actually what is ~/Public for?
[20:47] <wxl> sbaboz: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1/comments/1834 "from Ubuntu's perspective, this bug is now closed"
[20:48] <wxl> @HMollerCl there are relatively easy ways in Ubuntu to Samba/Apache share it
[20:57] <sbaboz> for some reason i get a timeout error when trying to open the other comments...
[20:57] <sbaboz> but i believe you... :)
[20:57] <wxl> you can just click the link
[20:57] <wxl> point being, it's not a great goal
[20:59] <sbaboz> and in this world if you don't grow you perish...
[20:59] <sbaboz> looks like the only languages that will survive are english and chinese...
[21:00] <wxl> yep, but you can only grow based on the resources you have available
[21:00] <wxl> and not making wise choices about how you spend resources means certain death
[21:03] <wxl> put less generally, there's only a few contributors to lubuntu. a small fraction of those contributors work on things that you could call "development" where new features are being added or bugs are being fixed (though we have many testers and bug reporters) and they are only volunteers so they have limited time. they can only work on important things. given the aforementioned lack of interest in this
[21:03] <wxl> particular feature, while i don't see it as silly, it's very low priority
[21:17] <sbaboz> I disagree. I think it should have been solved a long time ago. Many beginners work around this by using online transfer services (or even pendrives!)  - but this is clearly ridiculous, developers should find it embarrassing to have their users do so...
[21:17] <wxl> are you aware of all of our problems to be fixed?
[21:18] <sbaboz> I know you do a great job at them, and i am sure they are a lot more complicated than this...
[21:18] <wxl> and more urgent
[21:18] <wxl> that's my point
[21:18] <wxl> if you don't know the list, you're not really in a position to agree or disagree about priority
[21:19] <sbaboz> I hope i am allowed to say my opinion... :)
[21:19] <wxl> most certainly
[21:19] <wxl> now the *u*buntu team has more resources. if you can kick it over to them, it might get more traction
[21:20] <wxl> i would go file a bug
[21:23] <sbaboz> do they read these channels?
[21:23] <wxl> no
[21:23] <sbaboz> (developers)
[21:23] <wxl> file a bug
[21:23] <sbaboz> that's strange, isn't it?
[21:24] <wxl> no
[21:24] <wxl> i work in a manufacturing facility. the people in production don't listen in on support requests.
[21:25] <sbaboz> hearing the voices of users (wherever they may be) would interest me if i were a developer...
[21:25] <wxl> maybe you should become a developer
[21:25] <sbaboz> :)
[21:26] <wxl> or maybe you'd recognize that there's a way to make your voice heard: bug reports
[21:26] <sbaboz> yes, i understand, i am not against bug reports...
 sbaboz, as wxl said we have a long list of things to fix/implement that are mostly exclusive for lubuntu. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has more resources and most of the ubuntu solutions work in the other flavors. Giving that, if you find that there is something missing in ubuntu, you should file a bug to ubuntu, it will be quicker th
 If I understand correcly, you want that every use can have a share folder, roght? Or you want to have an internal file server?
[21:28] <wxl> they want every user, including the guest user, to be able to have full read/write access in a folder
 in the same computer? but not trhough network?
[21:29] <wxl> yep
 like a pendrive?
 (usb-stick)
[21:30] <wxl> not with a pendrive, no
 I woul make a partition w/o security for that.
[21:31] <wxl> that's an interesting, albeit convoluted solution.. use a file system that doesn't support permissions XD
 that's why I was thinking in pendrives.
[21:32] <wxl> right
[21:34] <wxl[m]> If it's for a quick file share an even easier solution might be /tmp
 other option, but I don't know if it would work, create a promiscuous user, that have al of his security down.
 and no privileges
 so everyone could read/write in his folders, but he can do nothing.
[21:37] <sbaboz> I prefer Lubuntu to Ubuntu
[21:38] <sbaboz> a lot...
[21:38] <sbaboz> And all i say/do is hoping to improve it...
[21:38] <sbaboz> (with the hope of)
 me too, but ubuntu has more resources, and if ubuntu finds a solution It might (99%) work in lubuntu w/o problem and/or we could more easily adapt it.
[21:40] <sbaboz> And Im using Lubuntu...
[21:41] <sbaboz> I see..
 for example, all the printer solution we use comes right from ubuntu.
[21:42] <sbaboz> yes as many other things...
 yes
[21:43] <sbaboz> but we don't have all the "frills"...
 sometimes we touch and modifys things though.
[21:44] <sbaboz> I have also installed Lubuntu to some of my friends (ex-windows)
[21:44] <sbaboz> Even those with powerful machines...
[21:45] <sbaboz> I think Lubuntu is always better...
[21:46] <sbaboz> We must just always remember that "for human beings" part...
[21:47] <sbaboz> for a bright future :)
[21:49]  * teward reappears from home
 sbaboz, in lubuntu we all have that in mind.
[21:53] <sbaboz> good to hear that...
[21:54] <wxl> sbaboz: since you're so passionate about this, read https://discourse.lubuntu.me/t/why-not-contribute/87
[22:02] <sbaboz> how does that Free training work?
[22:03] <wxl> it's not formal
[22:03] <wxl> you have an area of interest, we help you explore it
[22:03] <sbaboz> is it here in this channel?
[22:03] <wxl> with the goal, of course, of using that for contributing back
[22:03] <wxl> #lubuntu-devel would probably be a better place
[22:05] <sbaboz> My main area of interest is to help old people (with old computers) use Lubuntu
[22:06] <sbaboz> So I more need to say the changes that need to be done, or the options that need to be given...
[22:07] <wxl> that sounds like bug reporting to me :)
[22:07] <sbaboz> For example the email client could be improved a lot...
[22:08] <wxl> ahh yes then we can show you how to file upstream bug reports
[22:08] <sbaboz> yes, bug reporting, but also training so i better know what i am talking about...
[22:08] <sbaboz> which i often dont... :)
[22:09] <sbaboz> Alsothunderbird isn't good for old people...
[22:10] <sbaboz> All the clients should have a SUPERSIMPLE version...
[22:11] <sbaboz> It's not cool to exclude old people...
[22:11] <sbaboz> It's not cool to exclude anybody...
[22:15] <wxl> sbaboz: trojita is about as simple as it gets
 but you can alway ask for new features upstream
[22:16] <sbaboz> never heard that, is it in the software center?
[22:16] <wxl> it's the email client in lubuntu
[22:16] <wxl> unless you're using the old version :/
[22:17] <sbaboz> syylpheed
[22:17] <wxl> in which case, yeah, sylpheed sucks
[22:17] <wxl> we're not using it anymore
[22:21] <sbaboz> I tried many (though not trojita) but none comes with a SUPERSIMPLE-MODE... Maybe this necessity is too obvious for it to be seen? :)
[22:22] <wxl> sylpheed is convulted
[22:24] <sbaboz> what level of priority would you give here?
[22:25] <wxl> we've stopped seeding it in recent versions of lubuntu, so it's about level 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
[22:25] <wxl> out of a possible 5
 making changes in sylpheed has NO priority
[22:26] <sbaboz> can you install trojita in 18.04?
 wxl is overoptimistic
[22:26] <sbaboz> :)
 @sbaboz [<sbaboz> can you install trojita in 18.04?], you could try
[22:27] <sbaboz> try?
 type in a terminal: apt list *trojita*
 and tell what's coming out.
[22:28] <sbaboz> Just this: Elencazione... Fatto
[22:28] <wxl> dpesm
[22:28] <wxl> oops
[22:28] <wxl> doesn't exist until cosmic
 try because, I don't know if trojita exist in 18.04.-
 ok, so it does not. You "could" still do it, but I wouldn't recommend it.
[22:29] <sbaboz> Out of all the lubuntu-machines out there what percent would you guess has 18.04?
[22:30] <sbaboz> (my guess is 65%)
 I don't have info to guess that.
[22:32] <sbaboz> it's gotta be at least 50%, don't you think?
[22:32] <wxl> me either
[22:33] <sbaboz> last LTS
[22:33] <wxl> we do not recommend it
[22:33] <sbaboz> what do you mean? It's Lubuntu..
[22:33] <wxl> it's lxde, not lxqt, which is where all the current development is
[22:33] <wxl> lxde is essentially not developed at all
[22:33] <wxl> it's a waste of time
[22:34] <sbaboz> But this one will go for 10 years!
[22:34] <wxl> no
[22:34] <wxl> supported by us until next year
[22:34] <sbaboz> yes, i read it
[22:34] <sbaboz> official
[22:34] <wxl> and again: lxde is undeveloped
[22:35] <sbaboz> so who will support it?
[22:35] <sbaboz> (if not you)
[22:36] <wxl> well the real problem is that lxde doesn't even really support themselves
[22:36] <wxl> (one of the many reasons we're not using it anymore)
[22:37] <wxl> 18.04 packages will remain in the repositories until 2022. so from 2020 until then, the ubuntu community will support it. you will find that to be extremely limited support. beyond that, no one supports it.
[22:37] <wxl> so i wouldn't waste your time with it. upgrade to 19.04 and be done with it.
[22:38] <sbaboz> 19.04 is not LTS
[22:39] <wxl> so what?
 that's correct, but it's pretty mature now and you can easily upgrade from 19.04 to 19.10 and to 20.04.
[22:39] <sbaboz> LTS is cooler :)
 If I had to install one system from scratch I will start with 19.04.
 I would go to 18.10 if I had some hw problem, mostly kernel related (and nvidia)
[22:40] <wxl> it's full of old packages
[22:40] <wxl> that's not cool
[22:41] <sbaboz> just being done with it, and for a long time, IS VERY COOL...
[22:41] <wxl> what does that mean, though?
[22:41] <wxl> you upgrade packages during the lifecycle
[22:41] <wxl> and guess what an upgrade to a new version is? an upgrade of packages
[22:42] <sbaboz> Actually you reminded of another question i had...
[22:43] <sbaboz> Sometimes I get the feeling the automatic updates feature doesn't work....  they seem to get downloaded but not installed (until you click install)
[22:44] <sbaboz> ?
[22:44] <wxl> if you want automatic upgrades you want unattended-upgrades
[22:44] <sbaboz> it's an option in the update-manager
[22:45] <wxl> yeah, that's not actually what you think it is
[22:45] <sbaboz> please explain
[22:45] <wxl> you just described it. it doesn't install anything.
[22:45] <sbaboz> but it makes me think it does
[22:46] <sbaboz> why, is it a trap? :)
[22:46] <sbaboz> it says download and install automatically...
[22:47] <wxl> after you give it permission
[22:47] <sbaboz> then that totally needs to be made clear...
[22:47] <wxl> then get to filing a bug report :)
[22:48] <sbaboz> this definitely affects millions...
[22:48] <wxl> this is not a lubuntu issue
[22:48] <sbaboz> :)
[22:48] <wxl> it's an ubuntu one
[22:48] <wxl> so file away
[22:49] <sbaboz> also why this thing of not having updates go automatically by default?
[22:49] <wxl> LOTS of people don't want that
[22:50] <sbaboz> why?
[22:50] <wxl> including people with poor or no internet connection
[22:50] <wxl> but also people that want more control over how their updates work
[22:50] <wxl> and actually i don't see your bug
[22:50] <wxl> the language is "Automatically check for updates"
[22:50] <sbaboz> then the italian translation is wrong...
[22:51] <wxl> and then *IF THERE ARE SECURITY UPDATES* there's an option for download and install automatically
[22:54] <sbaboz> "Scarica e installa automaticamente"
[22:55] <sbaboz> even the security seem often to not go through...
[22:56] <sbaboz> They get done only when clicking install...
[22:56] <wxl> how do you know which ones are the security ones?
[22:56] <wxl> i will say those are relatively rare
[22:56] <sbaboz> it says "Aggiornamenti di sicurezza" in the details...
[22:58] <sbaboz> For example, say I install Lubuntu for a 90 year old man, it would be cool he need not worry about this stuff...
[22:59] <sbaboz> the machine just gets updated automatically...
[22:59] <wxl> UNATTENDED-UPGRADES!!!!
[23:00] <sbaboz> i dont understand what you mean
[23:02] <sbaboz> I think windows had this thing of all updates getting done automatically...
[23:02] <wxl> !info unattended-upgrades
[23:07] <sbaboz> That's the option we were talking about before?
[23:08] <sbaboz> Ok thank you for all the assistance, near bedtime here,...
[23:08] <wxl> night
[23:09] <sbaboz> Actually there's one thing i wrote before that i didn't send for worry of it being offensive... Do you give me permission?
[23:09] <sbaboz> (there's no intention of being offensive)
[23:10] <wxl> hm, potentially offensive is not something that sits well with the ubuntu code of conduct
[23:10] <wxl> i guess it depends on what offensive might mean
[23:10] <sbaboz> I adjusted it a bit, it should be ok...
[23:10] <wxl> constructive criticism is fine
[23:14] <sbaboz> I guess there is a rootproblem that generates many other problems...
[23:14] <sbaboz> Programmers are the only category of workers who often tend to think you have some kind of intellectual disability if you don't understand the basics of their work...  No other category does... Not the blacksmith, not the shoemaker,..no other… (This "disability" is probably due to spending too much time in front of the computer… :)
[23:14] <sbaboz> Don't you think there is some truth there? :)
[23:15] <wxl> no
[23:17] <sbaboz> I think there is some truth... but i didn't mean anyone of you who assisted me today...
[23:18] <wxl> i think like all gross generalizations, it's ridiclous
[23:20] <sbaboz> I think if you look at the logs of various support channels you will find many examples where newbies are being almost (or even clearly)  treated as stupid...
[23:20] <sbaboz> I mean Ive seen it...
[23:20] <wxl> you assume too much
[23:21] <sbaboz> Again, Ive seen it...
[23:21] <sbaboz> (but again notreferring to my experience today...)
[23:21] <wxl> i understand that but you assume too much about the identities of the people involved
[23:22] <sbaboz> i dont understand
[23:22] <wxl> this is your proof about your statement about programmers
[23:22] <wxl> and yet you have no proof that the people involved are programmers. you're assuming that
[23:27] <sbaboz> Ok you're right those who are in the channels doing support aren't all programmers, but many clearly are... But this can also be seen by some easily avoidable problems given to newbies in the distros (because they should be able to handle that, THEY SHOULD GET THOSE BASICS...)
[23:27] <sbaboz> and those working on the actual distros are all programmers...
[23:28] <sbaboz> (on the software)
[23:29] <sbaboz> I just think that sometimes they assume too much about what their users should know...
[23:30] <sbaboz> That's why i think that "for human beings" is a great motto to always keep in mind...
[23:30] <wxl> in any product you have designers and users
[23:31] <wxl> designers create with users in mind, but even with significant study, do not completely understand user needs
[23:31] <wxl> similarly users expect designers to know exactly what they want but since this is entirely unknowable without direct communication, that makes for a problem
[23:31] <wxl> thus the beauty of open source: direct communication is possible. file bug reports!!!!
[23:32] <wxl> the best motto is "good human beings file bug reports"
[23:32] <sbaboz> do you need a registered account to file bug reports?
[23:32] <wxl> yes
[23:32] <sbaboz> why is this necessary?
[23:32] <wxl> ask at #launchpad-users if you want
[23:33] <wxl> i didn't develop the system
[23:33] <sbaboz> I would guess it would be best to make the procedure as simple as possible...
[23:34] <wxl> maybe, maybe not
[23:35] <sbaboz> Ok anyways, thanks my friend, goodnight... (at least for me, not sure in what part of the world you are.. :)
[23:35] <wxl> night