[00:00] <TJ-> hmm, mayne not a commiter; I misread, he's an author (of a translation)
[00:00] <TJ-> ha, no, I was correct the first time, "committer" !
 @TJ- [<TJ-> With my Blind Society hat on, I'd ask you to consider how these images wil …], What I sent was only the result of a small and quick experience but I will take this into account in possible future suggestions.  If you agree, I can, from time to time, send some different suggestions, which can never be used without any pr
 Or, if you think it is better, I could create a "Lubuntu Art" channel that would concentrate the suggestions of all those who want to make proposals for Wallpapers or other artistic things for Lubuntu
 @wxl [<wxl> i seem to remember kubuntu did but i could be wrong], yep, Kubuntu livefs build failed today
 A 'fixed' apt-xapian-index build is currently migrating to release pocket, so hopefully image builds later today might be fixed
 Kubuntu iso rebuild went ok
[15:53] <TJ-> Bug #1828663 looks like a big long-running mess of pure crap in policykit - not sure how or where a solution is going to come from, but it is *nasty*
 @acheronuk [A 'fixed' apt-xapian-index build is currently migrating to release pocket, so ho …], Sweeet thanks
[16:32] <teward> fun fact it's already in release pocket AFAICT
[16:33] <tsimonq2> teward: Yep, so when images automatically respin in less than an hour, it'll be pulled in
 the apt-xapian-index upgrade already in my system.
[16:34] <teward> assuming things go smoothly :P
[16:34] <teward> wait this apt looks like Python
[16:34] <teward> apt related package*
 (still downloading)
 @teward [<teward> fun fact it's already in release pocket AFAICT], Yes, I did say it was migrating to release
 wxl: and network-manager-gnome also came to me as an upgrade
 (so everyone that has 19.10 will se 2 tray icons from now on since xdg are not put into ~ to avoid nm-applet to autostart)}
[16:50] <teward> acheronuk: it looks to me like this needs a partial rewrite for Python 3
[16:50] <teward> even with your 'fixes' included
 Not MY fixes
[16:51] <teward> hmm
 That was Julian
[16:52] <teward> well i should probably still make a note this thing is heavily written with internal libs dependent on cPickle which is a Python2 ism and a few other headaches
[16:52] <teward> remind me why this package is a requisite again?
[17:37] <wxl> TJ-: that policykit bug doesn't JUST affect us does it?
[17:38] <TJ-> wxl: apparently not, but it does only affect lubuntu via the user-groups changing. I tested Xubuntu and its 19.10 is fine in that regard
[17:39] <teward> it's simon's fault.
[17:39] <teward> *shot*
[17:39] <TJ-> wxl: there are o many layers of indirection it is impossible to follow. Reading the upstream policykit bug even the 2 most experienced developers don't see to know what to do with their own code - total mess!
[17:39] <wxl> TJ-: might be good to go through all the different flavors. that might shed some light on things.
[17:40] <TJ-> wxl: I'm leaving it at this point; not much more I can do, and I've already spent 10 hours investigating it
[17:41] <teward> TJ-: you need a life if all you do is investigate this stuff lol
[17:43] <TJ-> wxl: as I said in the bug report, there appear to be 2 issues, and due to the indrection the presumed main one (that pk shouldn't even be prompting for a password for a user with 'sudo' membership) is a nightmare to trace, since there's dbus messages all over the place
[17:43] <wxl> TJ-: thanks for all the help :)
[17:43] <TJ-> wxl: ^^^ that part made my suspect simply a badly written policykit rule or action but I couldn't see anything that had changed in that regard. I even reverted the recent polkit "handle negative UID/GID values" series of patches cherry-picked from upstream 0.116 on a hunch they may be the cause, but it still happens with those gone
[17:44] <TJ-> from what I can see the devs at Red Hat have neither the time nor inclination to fix their mess
[17:52] <TJ-> Something I got annoyed about in all my testing is, there is NO indication once logged in to the GUI a to what user account you're using - it really ought to be shown somewhere, even if hidden as "Logout of XXXXX" - several times I got myself confused as to which account I was testing
[17:53] <wxl> fair complaint
[17:56] <TJ-> maybe there's a panel plugin that already does it that could be added?
[17:56] <wxl> @HMollerCl you said we would see 2 tray icons? not only do i find this not to be true but also i thought we took steps to avoid that particular thing?
 We took steps, but since is a config thing, in xdg, xdg info might not get copied to existing users
 New users wont see it
 Have you restarted the system after upgrade?
[17:59] <wxl> i just did a fresh install
 In a fresh install it won't appear
 It's only for people that had already 19.10 installed and an existing user
[18:00] <wxl> oh
[18:00] <wxl> well
[18:00] <wxl> huh
[18:00] <wxl> that's weird
[18:00] <wxl> i get it, though
[18:00] <wxl> too bad, so sad for those people. that's what you get using the bleeding edge XD
 Since is a config in ~ it shouldn't be apply to existing users I think
[18:01] <wxl> too bad i throttled over the previous install or i could test it but it probably doesn't matter
 It's a .desktop in ~/autostart
[18:02] <TJ-> Could yuo add a simple one-time wrapper around the new applet that asks the user if they want to switch, and if they assent, removes the 'old' from the user's config ?
 I will check as soon as I'm in my pc again
 @TJ- [<TJ-> Could yuo add a simple one-time wrapper around the new applet that asks th …], Or a script that force the copy of the .desktop
 That disables the autostart
[18:05] <TJ-> I was thinking more of a one-time "welcome to the new release" dialog that gives sone "whats' new" info and also, for issues such as this, has options the user can assent to to change their profile. A common framework for it, rather than a 1-off for the network GUI issue 
 TJ- like a welcome center? https://phab.lubuntu.me/T17
[18:24] <wxl> ugh
[18:25] <wxl> @HMollerCl @kc2bez you two have powers to invite me to -members?
[18:25] <tsimonq2> I do
[18:25] <tsimonq2> sec
 Oh you mean on telegram. Yeah only tsimonq2
[18:26] <wxl> @tsimonq2: now do -council
 (Photo, 1280x719) https://i.imgur.com/4GtnK3C.jpg
 Fwd from Lubuntu Announcements: Donate to Lubuntu! … The Lubuntu Team is happy to announce that we now have ways that you can directly donate to the project and purchase apparel. … More info here: https://lubuntu.me/donate-to-lubuntu/ … Donate/purchase apparel here: https://lubuntu.me/donate/
[18:53] <TJ-> kc2bez: thanks, that sounds like what I'm meaning. Shame there is no screenshot or overview of the design ideas behind it... or maybe there are but they're elsewhere?
 I haven't been involved in the Welcome Center other than I know it has been in the works. There is a repository for it. https://phab.lubuntu.me/source/welcome/
[18:56] <TJ-> kc2bez: yes, I looked at that before asking :)
[18:56] <TJ-> kc2bez: do you know if the list of tasks needing new code is up-to-date? Even from the little I've picked up in this chat recently I have the sense that some may be crossed off?
 If you look in the mockup directory there are a couple of images but I think that is all there is as of right now.
 The list of tasks needing new code is fairly new but let me take a look.
[18:59] <TJ-> kc2bez: thanks for being my eyes; I think I read that directoy name as "cockup/" :P
 :D
[19:00] <TJ-> kinda relates to how I sometimes view my own code the first time around :p
 I think this is pretty accurate as far as I know. https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/lubuntu-dev/new-code/
[19:01] <TJ-> Is T29 native  nm-tray connection editor related to what I saw discussed earlier about the network icons in the task-tray?
 Yes, Hans has been working on that with wxl.
[19:03] <wxl> well, i've been helping foster it
[19:03] <wxl> really @HMollerCl has been doing all the work
 You have been bouncing ideas back forth.
 *and
 typing is hard
[19:04] <wxl> a bit but again i've not been doing much
[19:04] <wxl> just pointing in the right direction when he needs help XD
[19:05] <TJ-> wxl: I'm a little confused, can you help me? I've seen the earlier discussion about the two icons in the panel, am I correct in thinking that icon is "just" a network status display currently and that you want that to be able to open a GUI connection editor, which is what T29 is about?
[19:05] <wxl> ok let me remind myself here XD
[19:06] <TJ-> haha *yay* it's not just me then!
[19:07] <TJ-> I suspect I have the bandwidth to tackle a few of the items on that list; it'd be a refreshing change from chasing other people's bugs to chasing my own!
[19:07] <wxl> oh i just can't keep track of everything XD
[19:07] <wxl> so last thing i did was update the seed to include network-manager-gnome https://phab.lubuntu.me/rLUBUNTUMETAPACKAGING3cdce7d79da6891daa2f3879f8aada7b6e1fc177
[19:08] <wxl> i did this because we decided to use it until T29 gets fixed https://phab.lubuntu.me/D12
[19:09] <wxl> the thing about the two icons was adding a Desktop Entry to default settings to keep nm-applet from autostarting https://phab.lubuntu.me/D11
[19:10] <TJ-> wxl: right, so nm-applet is distinct from a connection editor
[19:10] <wxl> yup
[19:11] <TJ-> OK, makes more sense now. I kinda thought maybe this talk of the icon meant t29 was now done
 TJ-b as soon as I'm in my computer I can explain it better to you
[19:13] <TJ-> @HMollerCl I think I've figured it out now, but I'd be interested to know where T29 has got to in terms of deciding how to implement it.
[19:15] <TJ-> wxl: I'd added a comment to the top entry, T32, a few days ago. If that approach is considered feasible I'd tackle that. As I see it the easy part would be adding dm-verity into the live-build; the larger effort would be handling any errors it reported up the chain through console and GUI (depending on when a failure was detected, and in what) to inform the user.
[19:17] <TJ-> wxl: I could also add to T17 Welcome Center code to handle the "your user profile has configuration we would like to change because..." functionality if that is considered a useful approach
[19:18] <TJ-> wxl: also, T34, smart package removal... from my digging into Calameres for the boot-failure issue I'm pretty certain there is code there to do that already, or the strong potential to add that (to Calamares) easily
[19:20] <TJ-> wxl: and finally (!!) T68 provide support for installing 3rd party drivers - I've worked on that are a little in the past so is something I could at least spec-out and most likely code as a calameres module
 TJ- are you miker256 on phab?
 No, he's TJ
 TJ-: on T29, it would be nice to have our own qt nm-connection-editor, but I think it is a lot of work becasue we also need to prvide GUI to VPN connections. And mantain all that.
[20:05] <kc2bez> TJ- re: T68 Calamares has some of this functionality already. I think we just need to enable it. There was some rework being done upstream on it. 
[20:41] <TJ-> @HMollerCl I agree and is what I was thinking too, it's definitely a long term project and a lot of work, *unless* we can find a "sneaky" way to piggy back off the network-manager-*-gnome packages. By that I mean we could run a 'translator' script on their XML UI description files to create the equivalent for Qt, and possibly also for at least creating class/function declarations for the required
[20:41] <TJ-> source.
[20:42] <TJ-> kc2bez: I think that may be what I saw then because I have vague memories that the bug I dealt with was partially caused by the package-removal code running too earlier and removing something that was required by a later step.
 @TJ- [<TJ-> @HMollerCl I agree and is what I was thinking too, it's definitely a long …], is not that simple, I ported software-properties driver tab and there are gui components that doesn't have equivalent if you want to take3 a look you can read https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/portfromgtk2qt/
 and, giving that we only would use gtk when configuring networks (that doesn't happen a lot) I don't think is priority. But wxl and @tsimonq2 might disagree
 wxl: I didn't end up with the 2 tray icons. Maybe the tray icon only appear when is installed manually? ANd giving that, maybe the hidden .desktop can/should be erased?
[21:33] <TJ-> @HMollerCl nice documentation; thanks, I'll keep that handy!
[21:39] <kc2bez> TJ-: upstream closed the calamares bugs that tsimonq2 put in for the license module https://github.com/calamares/calamares/issues/1125 and https://github.com/calamares/calamares/issues/1124 We should be good to go with the version we have in 19.10 currently
[21:50] <wxl> oh hey we forgot
[21:50] <wxl> !standup
[21:50] <wxl> ^ i'm thinking i should add @JyotiGomes and TJ- to that list. no?
[21:53] <lynorian> is tsimonq2 here?
[21:54] <wxl> probably not, he rarely is :)
[21:54] <lynorian> so my turn
[21:55] <lynorian> Fixed session settings basic screenshot
[21:55] <lynorian> Major work on features for kde partition manager
[21:55] <lynorian> Made manualy changing time more detailed along with searching for your timezone
[21:55] <lynorian> note on tab complete to appendix c for command line
[21:55] <lynorian> process sorting by users in qps
[21:55] <lynorian> compose screenshot for trojita
[21:55] <lynorian> kde partition manager prefrneces +screenshots , smart data , and partition properties
[21:55] <lynorian> qtpass now has stub
[21:56] <lynorian> slide backgrounds in libreoffice impress now have screenshots
[21:56] <lynorian> libreoffice impress theme at startupo now has theme and 
[21:56] <lynorian> searching in nobleNote and bold and italics  
[21:57] <wxl> nice
[21:57] <wxl> good work as always!
[21:58] <wxl> @HMollerCl you about?
 hi, sorry
 nothinhg new on my side, I tried to update meta, but I failed, thankfully wxl could do it. SO hopefully in a couple of days we will have nm-connection-editor as default for nm-tray instead of nm-cli
 CR/EOL/EOF
[22:00] <wxl> danke
[22:00] <wxl> anyone else?
 bitte.
[22:01] <guiverc> sorry for lateness; i've been looking at T34 and looking how ubuntu does minimal; mostly to see if i can work out how done and if I could do it (then assign to me), I haven't got far.
[22:01] <guiverc> t34 = minimal install
[22:02] <wxl> wow cool guiverc 
[22:02] <wxl> you've also done something i *really* appreciate
[22:03] <wxl> giving *really good* advice on our discourse forum
 Oops! There was meeting today right? Missed it.
[22:04] <wxl> still going
 I wanted to ask what should I do with lubuntu-grub-theme ?
[22:04] <wxl> if you've got something to say, all ears
[22:05] <wxl> OH
[22:05] <wxl> did you send a repo of that somewhere?
[22:05] <kc2bez> Here but nothing new. 
[22:05] <wxl> thx kc2bez 
 @wxl [<wxl> did you send a repo of that somewhere?], Yeah check the task. I put up a link to GitHub repo.
[22:06] <wxl> ok i'll put that on my todo list
 Thanks :)
[22:06] <wxl> anyone else?
[22:07] <wxl> in that case i'll go
[22:07] <wxl>  * COMMITS
[22:07] <wxl>    * lubuntu-meta update config now entirely points to eoan https://phab.lubuntu.me/rLUBUNTUMETAPACKAGING56b218116b396b4ba7808471036271bfb6abbb9d
[22:07] <wxl>    * Update of lubuntu-meta for network-manager-gnome (also got k3b) https://phab.lubuntu.me/rLUBUNTUMETAPACKAGING3cdce7d79da6891daa2f3879f8aada7b6e1fc177
[22:07] <wxl>    * Update lubuntu-meta README with depends https://phab.lubuntu.me/rLUBUNTUMETAPACKAGINGa7cedd86d6cc6d2c6623cd6c76ab2969f7b4dedc
[22:07] <wxl>    * Uploaded new lubuntu-meta https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu-meta/19.10.2
[22:07] <wxl>    * Update lubuntu-meta to encourage fixing changelog after update https://phab.lubuntu.me/rLUBUNTUMETAPACKAGINGc6e82ce7855a
[22:07] <wxl>  * INFRASTRUCTURE
[22:07] <wxl>    * Made a private repo for old art to sort through and distribute pubilcly. We need art!!!
[22:07] <wxl>    * Added ~lubuntu-packaging to lubuntu-meta bugs.
[22:07] <wxl>    * Reviewed and edited our initial Patreon page and sent it to the council for final approval.
[22:07] <wxl>  * OTHER UPSTREAM
[22:07] <wxl>    * Commented on Simon's Calamares bug to encourage more explicit update-initramfs calls https://github.com/calamares/calamares/issues/1180#issuecomment-504515607
[22:08] <wxl>  * TODO
[22:08] <wxl>    * Check over lubuntu-grub-theme.
[22:08] <wxl>    * Finish SRU for libfm-qt. Wrote a bunch, but really need to trim to minimal patches. Will need to test first. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libfm-qt/+bug/1825587
[22:08] <wxl>    * Make a SRU for usb-creator-kde stretching back to xenial through disco: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T51
[22:08] <wxl>    * Triage lubuntu-meta bugs that were likely missed.
[22:08] <wxl>    * Start on upstream pcmanfm-qt help docs.
[22:08] <wxl>    * Look into brightness/backlight stuff that Chris tested: bug 1829641 (and otherwise catch up on triage— help appreciated/let's chat)
[22:08] <wxl> heh i think that's about it
[22:08] <wxl> i guess i officially announced the donations to discourse and the mailing lists, too
[22:11] <wxl> anyways i guess that's it thanks ya'll :)
[22:11] <TJ-> I have questions for guiverc  re T34 
[22:11] <guiverc> ask away TJ- 
[22:12] <TJ-> guiverc: how are you interpreting "minimal"? do you mean the Ubuntu Ubiquity installer's minimal option, or the ubuntu-minimal task?
[22:13] <guiverc> i took t34 as meaning the minimal option on install  (xubuntu does it via a different ISO and not question). 
[22:14] <guiverc> T34 task says "Like Ubiquity does, where irrelevant packages are scrubbed from the end install."
[22:15] <TJ-> guiverc: OK, so what Ubiquity does is simply apt-remove <list of packages> in the target aftey cloning the squashfs... and if I recall correctly calamares already is doing this to some extent so it should be possible to simply extend that existing functionality
[22:15] <TJ-> Can'y find the link to the lubuntu calamares settings.cfg file now
[22:16] <guiverc> I think that's what was hoped for, i don't understand how Ubiquity works, haven't got far [yet]
[22:18] <TJ-> Here it is! https://phab.lubuntu.me/source/calamares-settings-ubuntu/browse/master/lubuntu/modules/packages.conf
[22:19] <wxl> ugh https://forum.lxqt.org/t/problem-with-scripts/776
[22:19] <guiverc> thank you HEAPS TJ- 
[22:19] <TJ-> that is triggered from setttings.conf at the end here https://phab.lubuntu.me/source/calamares-settings-ubuntu/browse/master/lubuntu/settings.conf
 @wxl [<wxl> ugh https://forum.lxqt.org/t/problem-with-scripts/776], was reading the same
[22:19] <wxl> @HMollerCl: we should change our motto to "Lubuntu: LXQt, but without the jerks"
 jejeje
 I just spit my coffee all over my screen! :P
[22:20] <wxl> there's this episode of South Park where it ends with them saying that maybe hybrid cars will save the world one day, but in the meanwhile, can the drivers of them please not act like they're better than everyone? they all said that would be too hard and went out and bought gas guzzlers
[22:21] <wxl> THAT'S what it makes me think of
 @wxl [<wxl> @HMollerCl: we should change our motto to "Lubuntu: LXQt, but without the …], association.
[22:21] <wxl> HAHAHAHHA
[22:21] <wxl> now i just spit!
 :D
[22:21] <TJ-> guiverc: if you need any assistance with that let me know whilst I'm still remembering how calameres works
[22:21] <guiverc> appreciated TJ- , thanks !
 wxl: "LXQt for humans" remind me a conversation we have a couple of days ago.
[22:22] <wxl> heh yep
[22:23] <Eickmeyer> Wow, reading that was worse than the Arch forums.
[22:24] <TJ-> whilst we're at it can I raise T32 ?
[22:24] <wxl> yeah, it's really bad
[22:24] <wxl> you want to know how bad it is?
[22:24] <wxl> FREEBSD BAD.
[22:24] <Eickmeyer> Oof
 and you know what, the amount of time it tooks to them in all thos responses was far more than if they have nicely explain it.
[22:26] <wxl> no kidding
 good thing is that it came directly from debian, so we are not the ones to blame
[22:26] <wxl> and honestly the OP might actually have a legitimate concern. by my perspective, it seemed that english was not his native language and he may have had trouble communicating
 "blame"
[22:27] <wxl> yeah maybe i should swoop in there and troll them: "hey agaida, i thought you said only ubuntu users had problems"
[22:27] <wxl> or maybe "just when you thought ubuntu users were bad, here's debian users, amirite?"
[22:28] <TJ-> did you guys miss my "whilst we're at it can I raise T32 ?" or are you running scared of it? :)
 @wxl [<wxl> yeah maybe i should swoop in there and troll them: "hey agaida, i thought …], DO IT
 @TJ- [<TJ-> did you guys miss my "whilst we're at it can I raise T32 ?" or are you run …], Go ahead
[22:31] <wxl> i'm SOOOO tempted
[22:32] <wxl> however, i feel like i'm at least on a stable footing with tsujan and i think i'll just count my blessings thank you
[22:32] <TJ-> T32 checksums of install media; is there a preferred approach already, or is the dm-verity option something worth pursuing?
[22:32] <wxl> however i'm sure you're still on the crap list, simon, so you have nothing to lose XD
 TJ- I don't think anyone has started on T32. @tsimonq2 may have a preference
[22:51] <wxl> i think it was a brainstorm idea and that's about as far as it got; no idea of implementation
[22:51] <wxl> i'd say forge ahead, personally
[22:54] <TJ-> OK, so it'd entail a 'hash' file alongside the squashfs filesystem and some poking at how /cow is mounted for the live boot
[22:54] <wxl> i could see it being something ALL of ubuntu could use, personally
[22:55] <TJ-> so presumably adpations to live-build or whatever its called, plus some tooling to capture alerts and feed tham up the chain to the user
[22:55] <TJ-> wxl: that has been my thinking too
[22:57] <TJ-> wxl: the interesting challenge is maybe policy rather than technical; if a hash failure occurs (and we can identify which file it belongs to!) would we selective refuse to continue if it were an unimportant file, or refuse point-blank for any error at all
[22:57] <TJ-> The reason I ask is that at the moment, even if a boot-time 'check disk' is OK, during live boot it is possible for I/O errors to bring in corrupted blocks, especially with physical optical media
[22:58] <TJ-> and currently we'd miss those simply because there's no facility to detect them UNLESS debverify is done on all installed packages (which compares the debsums of packages to the files)
[22:59] <wxl> hm
[22:59] <wxl> i'm inclined to be austere and refuse entirely
[22:59] <TJ-> something to consider - won't matter until a proof of concept shows this can work
[23:00] <TJ-> same here
[23:00] <wxl> i just think it's safer that way
[23:00] <TJ-> I just think of occassions where "oh, it's just a file in /usr/share/doc/ -- no problem
[23:01] <wxl> yeah but i mean everything is important in some way
[23:01] <wxl> you don't want your man pages scrambled
[23:05] <TJ-> well, if a PoC works we can test it in different scenarios and see what the error rate is
[23:06] <wxl> sounds good to me!
[23:08] <TJ-> I guess I'd better learn how live-build works and get it working here
[23:09] <wxl> yeah that's outside my pay grade
[23:13] <TJ-> I guess Calamares will have to be taught to report errors if there are any
[23:15] <wxl> which is fairly trivial
[23:15] <wxl> i really enjoy working with calamares as an upstream. everything makes sense and generally people are nice (there's one exception but he got talked to)
 @wxl [<wxl> i really enjoy working with calamares as an upstream. everything makes sen …], He got talked to?
 That's good
[23:16] <wxl> afaik i know yes
 I cringe every time I have to submit an issue upstream because I'm like "here we go again"
[23:17] <wxl> i'd be more worried about lxqt XD
 With LXQt I just take the "guns a blazin'" approach
[23:18] <wxl> i test and double test and make sure to be extremely verbose and have pictures and test in debian too
[23:18] <wxl> it covers all the bases :)
 I would personally just start the issue with "I have this problem and I only have this problem in Debian" just to troll agaida XD
[23:22] <wxl> XD