[01:37] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[06:19] <lordievader> Good morning
[11:52] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[11:56] <marcoagpinto> Hey
[11:57] <luna> hi
[11:58] <marcoagpinto> >:)
[11:58] <marcoagpinto> [12:57] <marcoagpinto> I have been working on the speller since 7am!
[11:58] <marcoagpinto> [12:57] <marcoagpinto> :)
[11:58] <marcoagpinto> [12:57] <marcoagpinto> so much to do and so little time
[13:14] <hggdh> tomreyn: it should be ubuntu-desktop^ # the caret at the end is important
[13:14]  * hggdh goes for a breakfast
[13:14] <lotuspsychje> bon apetit
[13:15] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:18] <tomreyn> hggdh: ah, the task, right, thanks.
[13:19] <marcoagpinto> guys?! Now that you mention it... the trashcan icon looks ugly in 19.04 :(
[13:19] <marcoagpinto> and it also looked bad in 18.10
[13:20] <marcoagpinto> in 19.04 the updates icon also looks a bit ugly
[13:20] <BluesKaj> who uses the trashcan anymore ?
[13:20] <marcoagpinto> what?
[13:20] <marcoagpinto> when you delete files?
[13:20] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:21] <BluesKaj> add delete to file filemanager services
[13:21] <marcoagpinto> ohhhhhhhh
[13:21] <BluesKaj> of coursew you probly run gnome so...
[13:21] <marcoagpinto> I don't understand what you mean
[13:21] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:21] <marcoagpinto> I only select files and click on delete
[13:22] <lotuspsychje> nautilus==>bypass the trash==>remove instantly
[13:22] <marcoagpinto> ohhhhhhhhhh
[13:22] <BluesKaj> then they're deleted, bypassing the trashcan
[13:22] <marcoagpinto> that is scary... I have it disabled on Windows
[13:22] <lotuspsychje> dont delete something you still need
[13:23] <marcoagpinto> well, at first I delete but sometimes I need again
[13:23] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:23] <marcoagpinto> like images and such
[13:23] <BluesKaj> no, just kaje sure you don't need the file(s)
[13:23] <BluesKaj> make
[13:24] <BluesKaj> my KB is fooling me again
[13:24] <marcoagpinto> anyway, Ubuntu is becoming better and better
[13:24] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:24] <marcoagpinto> there is still hope for a free OS
[13:24] <marcoagpinto> :p
[13:24] <marcoagpinto> back in 2012 it looked so bad
[13:25] <BluesKaj> Kubuntu is the only OS I use
[13:25] <marcoagpinto> Kubuntu is hard to use and it had some bugs years ago
[13:25] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:25] <marcoagpinto> and I only used it to take screenshot for Proofing Tool GUI
[13:25] <marcoagpinto> then, I decided I didn't need so many screenshots
[13:26] <marcoagpinto> so, now I only have Ubuntu
[13:26] <BluesKaj> nope, it's just more configurable than unity ot gnome
[13:26] <BluesKaj> or
[13:27] <marcoagpinto> well, if I win the Euromillions tonight I will buy a powerful laptop and install all the flavours
[13:27] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:27] <yelowfish> hi xenial users.what system wide equalizer do u use ?
[13:27] <marcoagpinto> just like years ago... Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Debian
[13:27] <marcoagpinto> :)
[13:31] <BluesKaj> why, who needs that many flavors
[13:32] <BluesKaj> yelowfish, no EQ here , just straight thru
[13:32] <yelowfish> ok
[13:32] <BluesKaj> why do you use EQ, ...bad sounding speakers ?
[16:49] <lotuspsychje> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5.3-MacBook-Key-Trackpads
[16:55] <tomreyn> yet another overpaid developer
[16:55] <tomreyn> :-P
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> always good to see enw devices support for me
[16:56] <lotuspsychje> new
[16:59] <daftykins> moot when it's Apple!
[17:13] <tomreyn> yes, it's generally good to see new hardware supported.
[17:15] <lotuspsychje> vote funky flamingo, on all mac types!!
[17:24] <pragmaticenigma> flippin flamingo sounds better
[17:24] <lotuspsychje> lol
[17:24] <pragmaticenigma> then we can go with flippin the bird
[17:25] <lotuspsychje> welcome radu_m
[17:26] <lotuspsychje> radu_m: there are some developers in this channel but mainly for ubuntu its in #ubuntu-devel
[17:26] <tomreyn> flippin the coin sounds more like apple
[17:26] <lotuspsychje> radu_m: but feel free to make a discussion here
[17:26] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn: roflol
[17:26] <radu_m> Hello everyone!
[17:27] <tomreyn> hi radu
[17:29] <radu_m> I intend to create some CLI applications. Could you recommend me some resources about the deployment mechanism used by Ubuntu, and other Debian derivatives?
[17:31] <lotuspsychje> radu_m: a contributing start point could be here aswell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
[17:33] <radu_m> Yeah. I was reading something there. There's where I've got the irc channel. I was looking more after something like a Software Architecture overview of the Ubuntu system
[17:37] <tomreyn> ubuntu is a linux distribution, not a single software, so there won't be a single software architecture document, i would think.
[17:37] <daftykins> seems like you want to look into packaging then - and PPAs perhaps
[17:37] <radu_m> I have 10+ years experience in programming. But I am relatively new to the linux world
[17:38] <radu_m> Yes. And some details about the Directory structure. I mean, more than the general descriptions I have found on google
[17:38] <tomreyn> there are two software distribution mechansms in ubuntu at this time. the classic one is APT (dpkg, .deb files), which is how the majority of software is installed and managed on an ubuntuinstallation. the other, rather newly introduced, option is !snaps
[17:38] <tomreyn> !snaps
[17:40] <tomreyn> https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/installation-guide/amd64/apcs02.html https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxFilesystemTreeOverview
[17:42] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: You're looking for details where none exist. Each linux distribution has it's own approach to doing things. There are generally practiced approaches to all, which is why you only find generic descriptions. Each distribution has it's own approaches to things. For programming, it's better to not code to a specific archetecture, and make sure things like file paths can be defined in configuration files, to make the
[17:42] <pragmaticenigma> application more flexible to the environment it will be installed to.
[17:42] <radu_m> If I am to package an application as a .deb file. After installation (taking into account the Filesystem Tree), it's files will be scattered all over, right? Conf files in /etc, binaries in /usr/bin and so on
[17:43] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: Files are placed where you define them to go
[17:43] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: Most application developers will install to their own folder in /opt ... where it's acceptable to have all components of the application kept in one place
[17:43] <daftykins> but you'd want to follow convention
[17:47] <radu_m> My under development CLI app in in /opt too. But ran into confusion when I had to change the system configuration
[17:47] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: What do you mean "change the system configuration" ?
[17:48] <radu_m> Right now, I am writing a wrapper for apache. And I want to allow regular users to create project directories and host them on sub-domains
[17:48] <radu_m> And in order to accomplish that, I added an entry in sudoers.d
[17:49] <radu_m> I am not sure how to avoid using that, and not having to write a setuid app either
[17:50] <radu_m> I read that setuid programs open a lot of security holes
[17:50] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: Just to let you know... that's already built into Apache and made available with a module
[17:51] <radu_m> And here is where I am in doubt. On my system, I can change the sudoers file and add special permissions. But if I am to deploy the application, how do I achieve the same thing without the need for special intervention from a sysadmin
[17:51] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: To be more specific, Apache already supports the ability to allow local users to host their own websites from their home directories. Giving them domains is a matter of using mod-rewrite rules
[17:52] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: So my question to you... why all this effort when the things you desire already exists?
[17:52] <radu_m> You are referring to ~user path, right?
[17:54] <pragmaticenigma> That's a default setting, but can be changed with a config file. Further, you can use modrewrite to translate "user.example.com" into "example.com/~user" ... so the end user would be none the wiser
[17:54] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: what I'm seeing with your approach is a bunch of extra overhead, and then more added overhead in order to manage all of it
[17:55] <daftykins> virtualhosts is a thing, don't see a reason to reinvent the wheel
[17:55] <radu_m> This is suppose to integrate more tools together
[17:56] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: What tools?
[17:57] <radu_m> If would generate an initially blank project, with a grunt-build system and a sublime-text project with all the js classes and libraries available on the system
[17:59] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: Define what is a project
[17:59] <radu_m> A bunch of files :)
[17:59] <radu_m> Hosted on a sub-domain
[18:00] <radu_m> How do I achieve this with a single command? Do you suggest that there is already something available?
[18:01] <pragmaticenigma> So in all that you have explained to me... you are literally reinventing the wheel for something that Apache supports out of the box
[18:01] <radu_m> The subdomain is suppose to be the project name
[18:02] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: And as daftykins already mentioned, that's what virtualhosts are for
[18:02] <pragmaticenigma> I run several subdomains for different projects on my web server. I defined each one with it's own virtualhost config file
[18:02] <radu_m> Exactly! But a regular user cannot do that. Am I wrong?
[18:03] <daftykins> why does a user without system permissions need to run a web server?
[18:03] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: That all depends on the permission you grant them, and the membership to the correct user groups. But would a user need access to those things. That's how you end up with developers getting things to work in your Dev and QA environments, but failing miserably in production
[18:03] <radu_m> That's what this CLI app is supposed to do. Generate the apache conf file, and run a2ensite
[18:04] <daftykins> can't see a use beyond a leaning exercise
[18:04] <daftykins> learning, too
[18:05] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: If this is a development environment, you are better off finding ways for Apache to handle as much of this for you. There are ways to make it so a wild card subdomain is translated to the correct project directory. Without the need to reconfigure apache for each new project
[18:05] <radu_m> Ok. Learning. How do I deploy an app like this?
[18:07] <radu_m> Yes. But that would leave me with a rigid directory structure. Each project would have to be in a certain place. And being an experimental process, I haven't figured out yet, where that place should be. I want to be able to create these directories freely. With a simple command
[18:08] <radu_m> manole create project Prj1
[18:09] <radu_m> And that creates the directory Prj1, places some initial files inside, runs git init, and I can easily access prj1.myhost.intranet
[18:11] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: Instead of the deep dive approach, I would start at the beginning... first figure out how to run your projects via a path. example.com/prj1 and example.com/prj2
[18:12] <radu_m> That would be trivial, if all of them were on the same path in the filesystem
[18:13] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: They should be... if they're not, what are you trying to do exactly?
[18:13] <daftykins> violate convention apparently :)
[18:13] <radu_m> I already have all of this working. With the subdomain and all. But the thing I don't like, is that sudoers.d file I added, and which I will have to maintain in the future. I don't know how to do the deployment of such things
[18:14] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: and what we're trying to tell you is you are creating so much more work for yourself presently than is needed
[18:15] <radu_m> daftykins: Yes. That's pretty much what I am trying to do in this case. This would be used on a development system, not on a live one
[18:16] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: That leads into a bigger issue... your development system should be set up EXACTLY like your production system. If it isn't... you will always have issues going to production with your applications
[18:19] <radu_m> Letting all this on the side, if I do keep my app in /opt, how would I update it on all stations?
[18:20] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: explain what you mean by "Update it on all stations"
[18:20] <pragmaticenigma> what is a station, what are you updating?
[18:21] <radu_m> If I make changes to the code. And I want all those changes reflected on every pc in the lan on which I do have the app
[18:23] <pragmaticenigma> you read up on deployment tools that automate that process for you
[18:25] <radu_m> That's what I was asking from the beginning. An architectural overview on how deployment works in Ubuntu
[18:26] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: Let me ask you this... Is this for a hobby or are you doing this for a company that employs you?
[18:26] <radu_m> Hobby
[18:27] <radu_m> And I believe it would be a useful learning exercise
[18:28] <radu_m> If I learn how to do it properly, could prove useful at one point
[18:32] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: And we've been trying to explain to you the most efficient and trouble free way to accomplish that. I've been doing this for over 20 years. There are no shortcuts, and from what you have described so far, you are literally reinventing wheels that exist. Would it be helpful to have something build config files when you create a project?... sure. But if you configure your environment properly, that issue goes away
[18:32] <pragmaticenigma> and you can focus on your application development, instead of your tool kit to manage everything.
[18:34] <pragmaticenigma> I personally run several home made applications on my server. Each with their own subdomain. All my projects live in /opt/projects/dev/{project_name} and I use a mod-rewrite rule to allow me to access my projects without need for a custom config file for each new project
[18:34] <pragmaticenigma> With my applications in one spot, I can leverage rsync or simple SFTP/SCP to copy those files to another server if I need to.
[18:35] <pragmaticenigma> All of this done with the tools and configuration files already available to me. Could a deployment tool help with some of this... sure, but that adds an entire layer of complexity that I don't currently require.
[18:36] <radu_m> I see
[18:37] <radu_m> Reinventing a lot of wheels is how I learned all I know
[18:41] <radu_m> This would probably not be useful for an experienced person. But for a new-comer, if would certainly be nice to type a few words and have it working. There are still a lot of people out there who add the path to their files in apache.conf
[18:41] <pragmaticenigma> radu_m: And what I'm suggestion requires no typing
[18:41] <pragmaticenigma> *suggesting
[18:42] <pragmaticenigma> The *path* to linux enlightenment, is to start with learning to stop using paths
[18:46] <radu_m> Ok. Thank you for your input!
[18:50] <daftykins> when you automate things you tend to forget how it's done properly imo
[18:59] <hggdh> daftykins: I agree. Pretty much all automation I have written resulted in both a seamless process, and getting rust in my memory
[19:00] <hggdh> (some times I would go back to something I wrote, and get doubts on what the hell was going on there)
[19:02] <pragmaticenigma> same for me... plus making some really convuluted web applications, and then running security scans against them years later to discover massive holes allowing malicious attacks against the underlaying system because one setting undoes another
[19:07] <hggdh> pragmaticenigma: yeah. The WTH is going here works for both what I forgot *and* for the "but this is REALLY bad!" things
[19:35] <hggdh> so... went to pick up my mail in the mailbox and... found a wasp's nest. Actually the wasps found me. Got stung a few times.
[19:35] <daftykins> holy moly
[19:35] <daftykins> sounds like a trap
[19:35] <hggdh> and, of course, my mobile fell to the pavement JUST by the mailbox, so I had to return and pick it up
[19:36] <hggdh> yeah. And I fell to it like a born sucker
[19:36] <tomreyn> this wouldn't have happened with pop3!
[19:37] <hggdh> there you go. Gonna complain with the UPPS, asking for snail-mail to be delivered by POP3
[19:37] <tomreyn> sorry to hear this, though. did you recover your phone?
[19:38] <hggdh> so, now I have a left thumb that is sort of difficult to move, and some two stings in the back (while I was, cowardly, running away
[19:38] <tomreyn> ow crap :/
[19:38] <hggdh> I got the phone, yes. And I was not stung again :-)
[19:39] <hggdh> the only good point is they were the common red wasps, NOT the yellow jacket
[19:39] <tomreyn> well that at least.
[19:39] <OerHeks> not-honey-bees :-D
[19:39]  * hggdh notes that the saying "red wasps do not hurt" is false.
[19:40] <OerHeks> wasps die after they sting?
[19:40] <hggdh> nope
[19:40] <hggdh> they can sting again and again
[19:40] <OerHeks> here they do, the sting will break off
[19:41] <tomreyn> i was thinking it's bees who die when they sting, not wasps
[19:41] <hggdh> last time I was walking the dog, and one (I do not know what type) got thrown by the wind against my face, and stung me just south on my right eye
[19:42] <tomreyn> uuh also very unfortunate
[19:42] <tomreyn> you seem to be a prime target
[19:42] <hggdh> I think I will move...
[19:42] <hggdh> on the good side, now I got some new muscles growing on my hand and back