=== brainwash_ is now known as brainwash
bluesabreMentioning CSD to Xfce people https://media2.giphy.com/media/3orif2nxe9tn5Zi4JG/giphy.gif22:36
bluesabre(thanks ochosi)22:37
Unit193I mean, considering some reaction from the devs was a range of "Please no" to "I won't work on anything that has them"...I don't think it's really the right move.22:48
bluesabreUnit193: are these also your primary concerns? https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2019-October/036707.html22:50
bluesabreIf CSD are going to exist in any form, we might be able to just solve the issue22:51
Unit193I'm a little hazy as to the difference between CSDs and headerbars, tbh.  They tend to come hand-in-hand.22:53
Unit193From the sounds of it, I might be able to just drop use-header-bar from a few things, or maybe even patch it out of libxfce4ui...22:54
Unit193https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/CSD makes me think of what I previously knew as headerbars.  Anyway, if that's the case they tend to look out of place; take up too much space; and for some reason of which I don't know why, they seem to be less responsive to clicks than alternatives.22:58
ali1234CSD is a requirement for headerbars23:06
bluesabreYeah, so basically we're going for 1) https://imgur.com/iom27ES for most applications (this is CSD, non-headerbar decorations), and 2) https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/appearance-csd.png for the CSD XfceTitledDialog replacement23:06
bluesabreRight, but headerbars are not a requirement for CSD23:07
ali1234bluesabre: you can't fix any of the issues raised on that mail while using CSD, it is impossible, because Gtk can't render xfwm themes23:07
bluesabreThe theme is just one issue23:08
ali1234it precludes all of the consistency issues23:08
ali1234the functionality issues can't be solved without patching gtk23:09
bluesabreThe window buttons (except rolling) are already supported, even custom positioning to some extent23:10
bluesabrePer-application CSS could, in theory, "roll up" the window contents23:10
ali1234you could potentially solve the consistency issues by ripping out the decoration code of xfwm and then replacing it with something powered by gtk, but at the cost of making the functionality problem affect all apps instead of just CSD apps23:10
ali1234that would also break all existing themes of course23:11
bluesabreMost existing themes would likely have a CSD-titlebar style similar to their Xfwm style... so that breakage could possibly be reduced23:12
bluesabreBut I know nobody's going to let me demolish Xfwm :D23:13
ali1234what do you mean "their xfwm style"?23:13
ali1234the xfwm style i use does not have any matching gtk theme. i use adwaita23:13
ali1234and i use orion for xfwm23:13
bluesabreRight, I'm saying the Orion GTK3 theme includes headerbar and titlebar GTK3 styles23:14
ali1234there is no orion gtk theme23:14
bluesabrehttps://www.deviantart.com/satya164/art/Orion-GTK3-Theme-281431756 ?23:14
ali1234that's from 2012. it doesn't work any more23:15
ali1234like, at all, it's completely broken on modern gtk323:15
ali1234also the decorations in the screenshot look absolutely nothing at all like the xfwm theme23:16
bluesabre(I'd consider that a bug myself)23:17
bluesabreSay we release Xfwm5 in 2022, all existing themes would cease function without patching (or at least renaming), so eventually an unmaintained Xfwm theme would become a non-functional Xfwm theme23:18
ali1234why would xfwm themes stop working?23:18
bluesabreTheoretically, based on them being sourced from /xfwm4 theme directories23:19
ali1234just because the theme search directory was renaed?23:19
ali1234that's not even something that needs fixing in the theme, that's a packaging issue...23:20
bluesabreAny number of reasons... I'm just saying that there's no guarantee it'd work forever, same with any software23:20
bluesabre(not trying to argue or discuss particular implementations anymore, just saying)23:20
ali1234okay, but so what?23:21
ali1234my computer might break tomorrow, i'm not going to smash it up today because of that23:21
ali1234i'm probably the only person still using orion - i install it from source23:23
bluesabreThis is all in response to:23:24
bluesabre> you could potentially solve the consistency issues by ripping out the decoration code of xfwm and then replacing it with something powered by gtk, but at the cost of making the functionality problem affect all apps instead of just CSD apps23:24
bluesabre> that would also break all existing themes of course23:24
bluesabreSimply saying that any given theme, if designed with consistent titlebars in CSD/Xfwm, if Xfwm were to shift away from a custom engine to a GTK one23:24
bluesabreDidn't mean for it to spin out of control, speaking in hypotheticals23:25
ali1234okay, but there are currently zero themes where that works23:25
ali1234i'm not against CSD if you can fix those issues23:29
ali1234i have other issues with header bars though23:29
ali1234like they make it harder to drag windows because the title bar is full of buttons23:30
ali1234they encourage hamburger menus which are equivalent to normal menu bars except everything is crammed under one button23:31
Unit193bluesabre: Right, so the second image could just be fixed by patching libxfce4ui, no?  Or would one need to drop the glade option and a bit in the code?23:31
Unit193FWIW, I couldn't agree more with https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2019-October/036685.html23:33
ali1234how is "force quit unresponsive program" handled with CSD?23:36
ali1234i suspect the answer to this is "not at all"23:37
ali1234"It is fundamentally unavoidable that client-side decoration are affected by client-side lockups." - mclasen23:38
ali1234btw, its possible to dynamically transform headerbars in to toolbars, which allows the program to gracefully disable CSD entirely in all cases23:40
ali1234it requires a patch to gtk, but that patch could instead be a custom widget in libxfceui23:40
bluesabreI guess I just struggle with the animosity against them generally. If no functionality is lost, no menus are collapsed into a hamburger menu, and theming remained consistent (nothing that window manager theming does not currently carry over), what's the remaining issue? If it's consistency with other applications, the consistency currently stops when the titlebar stops and the rest of the app begins (developers are selfish)23:40
bluesabreali1234: yeah, I thought the same (and messaged ochosi about it)23:41
bluesabre> Crazy idea... we could theoretically implement an XfceHeaderBar that would do toolbar things if some config was set to off, headerbar things if enabled23:41
ali1234https://github.com/ali1234/headeraway shows how to do it23:41
ali1234basically you have a widget that is either a header bar or a gtk box... and the api for both is the same, so you just proxy23:42
bluesabreWhich sounds like a people pleaser23:42
Unit193"All things being equal", but they aren't, sooo..23:43
ali1234yeah, you do lose functionality... like the ability to kill unresponsive programs... which xfwm can do now23:44
Unit193Also they're too big and look awful, soo. :P23:44
ali1234it's a big assumption to say all these problems can be fixed... i mean if they could, surely gtk would have done it by now?23:44
bluesabreI don't think GTK is interested in fixing non-GNOME things, tbh :)23:45
bluesabreI've been chasing nautilus and totem patches as X11 features get deprecated23:46
ali1234we should come up with our own stupid UI design23:47
ali1234round windows!23:48
ali1234horizontal popup menus!23:48
ali1234then we can say gnome is behind the times23:48
Unit193Enforce one window up at once, and if it's not a full screen application then show the desktop background (not icons, those can be distracting.)23:49
ali1234android already did it23:51
bluesabrePretty Maemo also did that, and GNOME did it for a couple releases :)23:51
ali1234yeah, hildon, that was actually okay for a phone OS23:51
ali1234well, phone UI, the OS behind it was terrible23:52
Unit193Win 10 preview did too, didn't it?23:52
ali1234only metro apps i think23:52
ali1234but maybe the preview could only run metro apps... i dont remember23:52
bluesabreoh yeah23:52
bluesabreMetro apps in Win8 were fullscreen only, 8.1 added an optional windowed mode, and 10 brought back windows by default23:53
ali1234ultimately whoever is willing to do the work gets to decide23:53
bluesabreI'm just trying to make sure that there's people left to do the work once the dust clears23:54
Unit193Yeah, though I have hope that the thunar and xfce4-terminal maintainers aren't game for the idea. :323:54
ali1234what is the benefit of doing it, from maintenance pov?23:54
bluesabrePreps us for Wayland23:55
bluesabreI know video is 100% broken in Parole with GTK_CSD=1, other apps are definitely affected in fun and unknown ways23:55
ali1234wayland doesn't require CSD - see KDE23:56
bluesabreRight, but the GTK CSD mode I think intentionally breaks X11-specific functionality23:57
bluesabreAt least, from when I've run with it on in the past23:57
bluesabreNot sure what else is affected in the backend23:57
ali1234probably, but why is parole using that in the first place?23:57
bluesabreIt's not currently23:57
ali1234why does it break then?23:57
bluesabreOh, that being X11 stuff?23:58
bluesabreGStreamer video, not crammed through a Clutter actor, seemingly uses X1123:58
ali1234how would making it use CSD fix that?23:58
bluesabreAnd we use the X11 accelerated video bits because the Clutter API changed radically23:59
bluesabreIt forces us to identify and resolve those issues23:59
bluesabreI think ochosi had other documented reason for it as well23:59
ali1234it's fine to support CSDs in individual apps23:59

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