[00:00] <bluesabre> As long as they're not Xfce apps (seems to be the general consensus)
[00:00] <ali1234> no, even if they are, they should support window managers that aren't xfce
[00:01] <ali1234> but they should also support not-CSD
[00:02] <bluesabre> Right
[00:05] <bluesabre> It probably warrants an extended discussion and reconsideration of the issues... not sure how long ochosi is away, probably don't want to push in either direction until he reappears
[00:09] <Unit193> Ah, from the email thread it seems GTK_CSD=0 should just revert it all to be classic Xfce?
[00:09] <bluesabre> Yep
[00:09] <Unit193> So basically, just changing the default.  If there's a non-CSD option, I don't care what the default is.
[00:09] <ali1234> doesn't work on header bars, at least not on anything i have installed
[00:10] <bluesabre> In fact, I think it's logical to make the libxfce4ui headerbar implementation respect that
[00:10] <ali1234> yes
[00:11] <Unit193> Hrm, I purged catfish from everywhere, I can't test it.
[00:11] <ali1234> although automatic conversion is still a bit problematic if you go full headerbars like eg gedit
[00:11] <ali1234> cos then you have this big ugly toolbar and no menu bar
[00:16] <ali1234> this is what headeraway does: https://i.imgur.com/HSUBgTq.png
[00:17] <ali1234> screenshot is from before xfwm supported them at all and so you got two decorations
[00:17] <bluesabre> Gotcha
[00:18] <Unit193> I could likely use that as I never found an alternative for simple-scan (I've replaced or purged every other CSD/headerbar using application.)
[00:19] <ali1234> i doubt it still works without fix ups... it's a preload hack and i made it 6 years ago
[00:20] <bluesabre> So, in theory we could somehow plug that into libxfce4ui, and it would be available for Xfce components, or anything GTK3 in an Xfce session?
[00:21] <ali1234> it would only work for xfce components that explicitly used it instead of using gtk header bar directly
[00:21] <bluesabre> Ah, gotcha. So the ideal usecase would still be using it in preload
[00:22] <ali1234> also, confirmed it no longer works
[00:22] <Unit193> Bummer.
[00:22] <ali1234> has no effect on nautilus anyway
[00:22] <Unit193> (skanlite pulls in too much KDE)
[00:23] <ali1234> i wouldn't recommend shipping gtk preload hacks in a real distribution
[00:24] <Unit193> No, it's not the best idea.  I think Lubuntu tried that and it bit them.
[00:24] <ali1234> third party stuff is somebody else's problem
[00:24] <ali1234> i think ubuntu did it at one point :)
[00:25] <Unit193> Oh my.
[00:25] <ali1234> the hud/dbus menu thing
[00:25] <bluesabre> Which was my absolute favorite ubuntu feature
[00:25] <ali1234> maybe im remembering wrong
[00:25] <ali1234> is that a /s?
[00:26] <bluesabre> I really thought the hud was awesome
[00:26] <bluesabre> But yeah, that was a patched GTK that enabled that
[00:26] <ali1234> it was awesome if you already memorized the contents of every menu in an app
[00:27] <ali1234> discoverability for new users was terrible... worse than ribbon, or the thing that hid menu items that you rarely used
[00:39] <Unit193> GTK_CSD=0 LD_PRELOAD=libgtk3-nocsd.so.0 /usr/bin/remmina  looks off. :3
[00:40] <ali1234> i'm still on 18.04 so i can't really even test this stuff properly
[00:40] <ali1234> all my xfce is still gtk2
[00:42] <Unit193> The latter bit is fixable. :3
[00:45] <ali1234> i'll probably install +1 after christmas
[00:45] <ali1234> ten stay on it for two years :)
[00:45] <Unit193> You *could* add the xubuntu-dev/staging PPA, but I doubt you like PPAs.
[00:45] <ali1234> i love ppas
[00:45] <Unit193> ...Welp.
[00:46] <ali1234> i have that ppa installed already
[00:46] <ali1234> and also experimental
[00:46] <Unit193> Shouldn't you have all GTK3 then?
[00:46] <ali1234> no idea
[00:47] <ali1234> hmm.. my parole is gtk3
[00:48] <ali1234> but GTK_CSD has absolutely no effect on it
[00:49] <ali1234> it's more the third party stuff... like my simple-scan has no CSD
[00:49] <Unit193> That might have been patched out, lucky you.
[00:49] <ali1234> neither does atril
[00:49] <Unit193> We switched to Atril because evince did.
[00:50] <ali1234> oh its a mate fork?
[00:51] <Unit193> Yep.
[00:51] <Unit193> engrampa, atril, mate-calc.
[10:46] <bluesabre> ali1234, Unit193, I created a new proposal that might help with the Xfce conversation. I've already shot this along to the core devs, but what do you think? https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd_support
[12:59] <ali1234> bluesabre: works for me. can you add the frozen client bug to the list of problems too please?
[12:59] <ali1234> this one: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/issues/215
[13:03] <ali1234> i think that one is important because it is not a subjective design issue, CSD is objectively worse in that situation. and because GNOME have declared it unfixable.