[01:01] <kenvandine> kyrofa: please don't forget my darktable PR :)
[01:01] <kyrofa> kenvandine, I haven't, don't worry!
[01:51] <duflu> Oh hi kenvandine. How goes?
[01:52] <kenvandine> Hey duflu, welcome back!
[01:52] <duflu> Thanks. I struggled to stay away through yesterday but hopefully today is better
[01:52] <duflu> -away +awake
[02:06] <duflu> Self contradictory perhaps
[05:29] <jibel> good morning everyone
[06:23] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers
[07:15] <didrocks> good morning
[07:37] <jibel> salut didrocks & oSoMoN
[07:39] <didrocks> salut jibel
[08:19] <seb128> gooood morning desktopers
[08:28] <marcustomlinson> good morning jibel oSoMoN didrocks and seb128
[08:28] <didrocks> salut seb128, bon week-end prolongé ?
[08:28] <didrocks> and hey marcustomlinson
[08:28] <seb128> hey marcustomlinson, lut didrocks, how are you?
[08:28] <marcustomlinson> good thanks, nice relaxing long weekend :)
[08:28] <marcustomlinson> yourself?
[08:28] <didrocks> ça va :)
[08:33] <seb128> marcustomlinson, same here, I took monday as a remaining swap from Vancouver :)
[08:34] <marcustomlinson> nice :)
[09:01] <oSoMoN> good morning jibel, didrocks, marcustomlinson
[09:20] <didrocks> salut oSoMoN
[09:22] <jibel> hello oSoMoN
[12:37] <seb128> jamesh, weekly discourse post?
[12:37] <seb128> kenvandine, ^
[14:03] <kenvandine> Hey seb128
[14:06] <seb128> hey kenvandine, how are you?
[14:06] <kenvandine> Good, and you?
[14:06] <seb128> I'm good thx :)
[14:15] <marcustomlinson> hey kenvandine
[14:19] <kenvandine> hey marcustomlinson
[14:20] <kenvandine> marcustomlinson: did you make any progress on getting the calendar and contacts snaps updated?
[14:21] <marcustomlinson> kenvandine: I did get 'somewhere'
[14:21] <marcustomlinson> it's moving further and further in the build process
[14:21] <marcustomlinson> pealing the onion
[14:21] <marcustomlinson> Another day perhaps
[14:22] <kenvandine> marcustomlinson: ok
[14:22] <kenvandine> using the gnome-3-34 build snap?
[14:22] <marcustomlinson> yes
[14:22] <marcustomlinson> I have to build e-d-s
[14:22] <marcustomlinson> that's where the pain is
[14:23] <kenvandine> yeah
[14:24] <marcustomlinson> lots of moving parts
[14:24] <marcustomlinson> anyway, you know how it is, chipping away slowly
[14:28] <Wimpress> Time appropriate greetings desktoppers
[14:29] <oSoMoN> hey Wimpress
[14:29] <didrocks> sounds like the start of a podcast I'm listening from time to time :)
[14:29] <Wimpress> didrocks: :-D
[14:29] <marcustomlinson> which podcast, Wimpress is on them all
[14:31] <Wimpress> #startmeeting Desktop Team Weekly Meeting - 2019-12-03
[14:31] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Dec  3 14:31:11 2019 UTC.  The chair is Wimpress. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:31] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[14:31] <Wimpress> Roll call:  didrocks, duflu, hellsworth, jamesh, jibel, kenvandine, laney (out), marcustomlinson, oSoMoN, seb128 , tkamppeter (out), trevinho (out), robert_ancell
[14:31] <kenvandine> o/
[14:31] <marcustomlinson> \o
[14:31] <oSoMoN> _o/
[14:31] <Trevinho> o/
[14:31]  * Wimpress blinks
[14:31] <Wimpress> Says here Trevinho is PTO ;-)
[14:31] <didrocks> hey
[14:32] <seb128> o/
[14:32] <jibel> \o
[14:32] <seb128> Wimpress, here being?
[14:32] <seb128> he was off yesterday, did I put that on the wrong day in the holidays calendar?
[14:32] <Trevinho> yesterday I was
[14:32] <Wimpress> My calendar must be wrong then.
[14:33]  * marcustomlinson winks
[14:33] <seb128> I probably screwed the event, fixed
[14:33] <seb128> sorry :)
[14:33] <Wimpress> Is all fine.
[14:33] <Wimpress> Right, shall we?
[14:33] <hellsworth> here
[14:33] <Wimpress> o/
[14:33] <seb128> gogogo
[14:33] <Wimpress> #topic rls-bb-bugs
[14:33] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
[14:34] <Wimpress> Well, that one is all clear.
[14:35] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html
[14:36] <Wimpress> Trevinho: Is this one suitable for bionic?
[14:36] <Wimpress> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mutter/+bug/1793496
[14:37] <Trevinho> Wimpress: well, I've proposed a PPA for that, that isn't fixing apparently
[14:37] <Trevinho> so... while coudl be nice to have, I wasn't able to identify what fixed it in my other branch
[14:37] <Wimpress> OK
[14:37] <seb128> Wimpress, where did you find that one?
[14:37] <Trevinho> so it would need some more work
[14:38] <Wimpress> seb128: desktop-packages in rls-bb-tracking
[14:38] <seb128> Wimpress, we usually reviews unassigned one in that list
[14:38] <seb128> that one is assigned to Marco?
[14:39] <Wimpress> Yep. Just noticed that one was 'New'
[14:39] <seb128> ah
[14:39] <Wimpress> OK, to move on?
[14:39] <seb128> sure
[14:39] <Wimpress> #topic rls-dd-bugs
[14:39] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html
[14:39] <Wimpress> All god.
[14:39] <Wimpress> All good
[14:40] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-tracking-bug-tasks.html
[14:40] <Wimpress> That all looks in order too.
[14:40] <seb128> :-)
[14:40] <Wimpress> #topic rls-ee-bugs
[14:40] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
[14:41] <Wimpress> Is good.
[14:41] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-tracking-bug-tasks.html
[14:41] <marcustomlinson> there's a chromium bug in unknown: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/1834671
[14:42] <marcustomlinson> not sure if that's for us. oSoMoN?
[14:42] <oSoMoN>  I already commented on it a while back, not sure there's anything else to do for now
[14:42] <Wimpress> oSoMoN: Has marked that "Fix released" for Firefox.
[14:43] <Wimpress> So is Chromium fixed or no action requireD?
[14:43] <oSoMoN> not implemented in chromium until the spec is clarified
[14:43] <oSoMoN> so nothing we can do about it
[14:43] <Wimpress> OK, thanks.
[14:44] <Wimpress> All OK to move on?
[14:44] <marcustomlinson> so we should not be tracking it right
[14:45] <oSoMoN> indeed
[14:45] <oSoMoN> let me remove the distro tasks for chromium
[14:45] <Wimpress> Thanks.
[14:46] <oSoMoN> done
[14:46] <Wimpress> #topic rls-ff-bugs
[14:46] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
[14:46] <Wimpress> All in hand there.
[14:47] <Wimpress> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-tracking-bug-tasks.html
[14:48] <Wimpress> Also, all fine.
[14:48] <Wimpress> #topic update_excuses_by_team.html#desktop-packages
[14:48] <Wimpress> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#desktop-packages
[14:48] <Wimpress> That looks way better than last week :-D
[14:49] <seb128> yeah, I've been busy on trying to get that list down (still on it)
[14:49] <hellsworth> how do we know if any of these are not being looked at?
[14:49] <seb128> we need someone to stay on top and know the status
[14:49] <seb128> which is usually Laney or me
[14:49] <hellsworth> ah ok thanks then :)
[14:49] <seb128> from the list xorg needs some work
[14:50] <seb128> oSoMoN, is firefox/armhf on your list?
[14:50] <Wimpress> Should we track these in Trello?
[14:50] <seb128> firejail is a falloutof i386 being deleted
[14:50] <oSoMoN> seb128, it is
[14:50] <seb128> Wimpress, we do, we even have a tag for proposed-migration :)
[14:50] <seb128> oSoMoN, thx
[14:50] <Wimpress> AAh, that tag :-)
[14:51] <seb128> I think the list is in shape
[14:51] <seb128> things are either being handled/already in trello, or not us
[14:51] <Wimpress> seb128 oSoMoN Do we have clear path for dealing with regression due to i386 not being available?
[14:51] <seb128> (the bottom of the list mostly i386 fallout waiting to vorlon to wake up and do his magic)
[14:52] <Wimpress> OK
[14:52] <seb128> Wimpress, @i386, not really
[14:52] <seb128> let chat about that in our next meeting in an hour if you want
[14:52]  * Wimpress makes a note.
[14:52] <Wimpress> #topic AOB
[14:53] <Wimpress> Anyone have anything else they want to discuss?
[14:53] <jibel> o/
[14:53] <Wimpress> jibel: Is that a "Hello" or a request to discuss something?
[14:53] <jibel> there is a MIR in progress for zsys with no movement at all cf bug 1839271
[14:54] <jibel> it was me looking for the bug #
[14:54] <jibel> Wimpress, seb128 could you help getting some traction from the security team?
[14:54] <Wimpress> jibel: Yes.
[14:54] <seb128> thx Wimpress
[14:55] <jibel> Thanks
[14:55] <jibel> I'm just worried that with xmas break it won't be sorted before new year
[14:55] <Wimpress> I'll do what I can to get it looked at.
[14:55] <didrocks> thx a lot Wimpress :)
[14:56] <didrocks> (the MIR was opened in August FTR)
[14:56] <Wimpress> So I see.
[14:56] <Wimpress> Anyone else for AOB?
[14:57] <Wimpress> Going...
[14:57] <hellsworth> nothing from me
[14:57] <Wimpress> Going...
[14:57] <seb128> seems like a wrap then!
[14:57] <Wimpress> Gone!
[14:57] <Wimpress> #endmeeting
[14:57] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Dec  3 14:57:51 2019 UTC.
[14:57] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2019/ubuntu-desktop.2019-12-03-14.31.moin.txt
[14:57] <seb128> thx!
[14:57] <didrocks> thx!
[14:57] <marcustomlinson> thanks Wimpress
[14:57] <Wimpress> Thanks everyone.
[14:57] <hellsworth> thanks
[14:58] <oSoMoN> thanks everyone
[14:58] <Wimpress> Great work clearing the backlogs team!
[15:02] <seb128> :-)
[16:00] <Trevinho> seb128: hey... (i don't see you in debian-gnome)... so, maybe you should also update https://salsa.debian.org/debian/libfprint/blob/5680318dd710dd71005f4409083c60fced746c1e/debian/libfprint2.postinst to match the new included drivers (mostly synaptics IDs)
[16:00] <seb128> Trevinho, sorry, looks like I closed the tab by mistake
[16:01] <seb128> Trevinho, ah, thanks for pointing that out, maybe comment on the mr?
[16:02] <seb128> Trevinho, also annoying that you are submitting a conflicting mp at the same time... :)
[16:02] <Trevinho> seb128: ahah, right. I thought I should base mine on yours, but gitlab has not such thing
[16:02] <Trevinho> but the conflict is probably auto-merging anyways or quiiiick merge.
[16:03] <Trevinho> anyways was mostly a RFC since I had that for long time locally
[16:05] <seb128> Trevinho, one thing that launchpad does better! :-)
[16:05] <seb128> Trevinho, do you expect the tool to be useful for debugging/asking bug reporters?
[16:07] <Trevinho> seb128: it is for testing sensors with some more low-level infos
[16:14] <seb128> Trevinho, right, well the question as to know if it's only useful to hackers (in which case it's probably something you should build yourself) or if that's something we might want to hand to users as well
[16:14] <Trevinho> well, I would say would be useful for bug reporting msotly
[16:14] <Trevinho> mostly*
[16:14] <Trevinho> there's a flatpack for that iirc too
[16:17] <seb128> k, then a new binary would be nice I guess
[17:26] <hellsworth> kenvandine: or anyone.. every now and then when i try to build a snap i get a multipass error but launching a rebuild goes on just fine. this time i can't get past the multipass error. is there a known solution besides rebooting?
[17:26] <hellsworth> snapcraft-gedit: timed out waiting for response. An error occurred with the instance when trying to launch with 'multipass': returned exit code 2. Ensure that 'multipass' is setup correctly and try again.
[17:27] <hellsworth> this is after 'snapcraft clean' and 'snapcraft'
[17:27] <kenvandine> race condition i guess
[17:27] <kenvandine> i've hit that a couple times
[17:28] <hellsworth> but it happens every time now
[17:28] <kenvandine> sergiusens: ^^
[17:28] <kenvandine> i'm using multipass from beta, not edge
[17:29] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: I get this sometimes
[17:29] <hellsworth> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/w3zwr6rG6b/
[17:29] <jibel> delete the vm and try again? I had it too and it usually fixes it or just a retry
[17:29] <marcustomlinson> I multipass delete the vm
[17:29] <hellsworth> well snapcraft clean deletes the vm
[17:29] <sergiusens> kenvandine: hellsworth we haven't changed anything in a while, maybe get Saviq?
[17:29] <marcustomlinson> what jibel said
[17:30] <jibel> I use beta too
[17:30] <sergiusens> hellsworth: is the error presented during build?
[17:30] <kenvandine> beta has been pretty solid for me
[17:30] <sergiusens> hellsworth: try giving the instance more RAM
[17:30] <hellsworth> well i just tried 'multipass delete snapcraft-gedit' followed by 'snapcraft' and hit the same issue again
[17:30] <hellsworth> grumble grumble
[17:31] <hellsworth> how do you give the instance more ram?
[17:31] <hellsworth> sergiusens: yes the error is presented when trying to build gedit with just 'snapcraft'
[17:31] <Saviq> hellsworth: `multipass delete` does not actually remove the instance
[17:31] <Saviq> unless you `multipass purge` after, or `…delete --purge
[17:31] <Saviq> `
[17:31] <kenvandine> multipass delete -p snapcraft-gedit
[17:32] <hellsworth> alrighty let's try with --purge
[17:32] <Saviq> `snapcraft clean` is really what you should use
[17:32] <hellsworth> ah ok well i've been using 'snapcraft clean' before trying with multipass delete..
[17:32] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: SNAPCRAFT_BUILD_ENVIRONMENT_MEMORY=4G snapcraft
[17:32] <hellsworth> thanks marcustomlinson
[17:33] <hellsworth> what's the default ram for a multipass vm?
[17:33] <kenvandine> hellsworth: what version of multipass are you using?
[17:33] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: but I doubt highly you need to do that
[17:33] <hellsworth> 0.8.1multipass             0.8.1                         1230   latest/beta
[17:33] <kenvandine> ok, same here
[17:34] <Saviq> hellsworth: I know this sounds wrong on a number of levels, but have you tried turning it off and on again?
[17:34] <kenvandine> lol
[17:34] <marcustomlinson> haha
[17:34] <hellsworth> by it you mean my computer? i mean i could but rebooting is such a pain
[17:34] <hellsworth> and if i i have to i will
[17:34] <hellsworth> but i wanted to ask here first if there was some other solution first
[17:34] <hellsworth> yeah setting the ram to 4G doesn't make a difference
[17:35] <hellsworth> ok fine i'll reboot
[17:35] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: so you tried multipass delete -p snapcraft-gedit?
[17:35] <kenvandine> maybe just restarting multipass
[17:35] <Saviq> hellsworth: let's break it down, does `multipass launch snapcraft:core18` work?
[17:35] <hellsworth> oh there's an idea. i'll try restarting multipass
[17:35] <hellsworth> ok haven't restarted multipass
[17:35] <hellsworth> 'multipass launch snapcraft:core18' seems to just hang there with no stdout
[17:36] <Saviq> hellsworth: that does suggest the daemon is stuck
[17:36] <Saviq> hellsworth: `sudo gdb -p $( pidof multipassd )` could give you a clue where it went
[17:36] <hellsworth> ok restarting multipassd
[17:37] <Saviq> and yeah `snap restart multipass` should resolve that
[17:39] <hellsworth> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/tDtH5TXY8s/
[17:39] <hellsworth> i restarted multipass - seemed to restart successfully. but then when i tried to build with 'snapcraft' i see this again in journalctl
[17:40] <hellsworth> so will check the gdb command to look for more info
[17:40] <marcustomlinson> snapcraft --use-lxd
[17:40]  * marcustomlinson runs away
[17:41] <hellsworth> lol
[17:41]  * kenvandine prefers multipass :)
[17:41] <hellsworth> NO! MULTIPASS SHOULD WORK DAMNIT!
[17:41] <marcustomlinson> yeah I'm kidding
[17:42] <marcustomlinson> I was running from Saviq's backhand
[17:42] <hellsworth> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/P26t27cJv8/
[17:42] <hellsworth> Saviq: ^
[17:43] <hellsworth> warning: File "/snap/core/8039/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libthread_db-1.0.so" auto-loading has been declined by your `auto-load safe-path' set to "$debugdir:$datadir/auto-load".
[17:43] <hellsworth> oh wait that might be gdb setup on my system
[17:44] <hellsworth> idk what i'm doing
[17:44] <hellsworth> should i just reboot?
[17:44] <Saviq> hellsworth: those errors are benign
[17:44] <hellsworth> is any of this debugging valuable?
[17:44] <marcustomlinson> restart the machine
[17:45] <hellsworth> ok fine. reboot it is.
[17:45] <marcustomlinson> at least rule it out I guess
[17:50] <hellsworth> well i rebooted, did a 'snapcraft clean' and a 'snapcraft' and am hitting the same issue
[17:51] <hellsworth> what in the world happened
[17:51] <hellsworth> time to delete multipass and reinstall it
[17:53] <sergiusens> hellsworth: if you need to remove, make it not take a snapshot or it will take forever
[17:54] <sergiusens> hellsworth: even before doing so, ask Saviq if there is any information that could be useful in the datastore to analyze what went wrong
[17:54] <hellsworth> well i already issued 'snap remove multipass'
[17:54] <hellsworth> and yes the snapshot is taking forever
[17:54] <Saviq> https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/automatic-snapshot-opt-out/12131
[17:57] <sergiusens> Saviq: how about using the remove hook like in microk8s?
[17:57] <hellsworth> thanks Saviq. the --purge flag is very nice to have
[17:58] <hellsworth> removing multipass with --purge and reinstalling it seems to have fixed my problem
[18:00] <marcustomlinson> hellsworth: out of curiosity did you try multipass delete -p snapcraft-gedit?
[18:00] <hellsworth> yep
[18:00] <marcustomlinson> ah ok, maybe I missed that earlier
[18:00] <marcustomlinson> interesting
[18:01] <hellsworth> well i did it with the full --purge rather than -p
[18:01] <hellsworth> but same thing
[18:02] <Saviq> sergiusens: and remove the users' instances?
[18:03] <Saviq> we do have one that drops the cache, but dropping instances themselves… not without asking :)
[21:33] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, I've made snap-store-3-34 on Community/Ubuntu in GNOME GitLab. I *think* I've got all the changes from the current snap-store branch. Can you do a quick test before I replace the current branch with it (I'll make a backup of that in case we need it).
[21:40] <kenvandine> I cherry picked a few commits that were missing
[21:40] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: ^^
[21:40] <kenvandine> It mostly works
[21:41] <kenvandine> It's currently built in the edge channel
[21:41] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, which commits? I'm not seeing anything new.
[21:42] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, oh, there's two things I think need fixing 1. disable the scroll on the banner and 2. we need to resolve the categories now they no longer collapse.
[21:48] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: try installing something
[21:49] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, working here!?
[21:54] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, your HEAD is 90cff77d1421e6c7cd704ed0d21d8b183378efca, right?
[22:01] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: oh... nope
[22:03] <kenvandine> pulling gives me conflicts :/
[22:03] <kenvandine> i had pushed at lunchtime :)
[22:05] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, oh, whoops. I might have overwritten your changes :/
[22:06] <kenvandine> no worries... i can get them back if needed :)
[22:06] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, can you push your local branch somewhere and I'll merge it in
[22:10] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: it looks like you got the changes i had except the packaging changes
[22:10] <kenvandine> i can fix that up
[22:10] <robert_ancell> ok, cool.
[22:12] <kenvandine> i'll fix that up and push it in a few
[22:12] <seb128> robert_ancell, kenvandine, do we get a less weird workflow for that vcs now? ;-)
[22:12] <seb128> like normal gbp style on launchpad?
[22:12] <robert_ancell> seb128, for the snap-store branch or all the g-s branches?
[22:12] <seb128> g-s in Ubuntu
[22:13] <robert_ancell> seb128, the g-s branches are all in LP, but the GNOME branches are used to rebase and generate the patches.
[22:13] <seb128> also might be worth doing it for the snap-store as well if you want others in the team to be able to fix things when needed
[22:13] <seb128> right
[22:14] <seb128> which nobody in the team outside of you understand how to do an update to that package :-/
[22:14] <kenvandine> i think the snap-store branch should not be rebased, we don't need to generate patches
[22:14] <kenvandine> i don't either :)
[22:14] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, but what do we do when we get to 3.36?
[22:15] <kenvandine> i'd like to be able to just merge :)
[22:15] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, then how do we know which changes are still applied against upstream?
[22:15] <seb128> gbp import-orig! :)
[22:15] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: git diff?
[22:15] <kenvandine> :)
[22:16] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, right, so then the Debian patches just becomes one patch? I mean I think that makes sense but doesn't seem the way we're doing things.
[22:16] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: actually, once we switch to the snap we can make drop the patches from the deb
[22:17] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, yeah, this is easy in the snap case for sure.
[22:18] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, seb128 let's add this one to the Frankfurt list to resolve :)
[22:19] <seb128> +1
[22:19] <robert_ancell> I'm used to too much travel, but Frankfurt currently feels like too far away!
[22:19] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: after installing a snap, try switching channels
[22:19] <kenvandine> it shows the unconfined warning
[22:20] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, always? even when not unconfined?
[22:20] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: i've pushed my changes
[22:20] <kenvandine> robert_ancell: yes
[22:20] <kenvandine> it doesn't show it before installing the snap
[22:20] <kenvandine> after install, switch channels
[22:20] <kenvandine> you'll see the warning
[22:20] <robert_ancell> kenvandine, which snap were you using?
[22:21] <kenvandine> i've reproduced it with several.  I just tested with wethr
[22:22] <robert_ancell> I think we want to change the source labels in the snap-store, so it's clearer they're channels.
[22:22] <kenvandine> yeah
[22:22] <kenvandine> and by default it says "Ubuntu" even when only the snap plugin is enabled
[22:22] <robert_ancell> yes
[22:22] <kenvandine> so it did change channels for me
[22:22] <kenvandine> but shows the install button and the unconfined warning
[22:24] <robert_ancell> oh, weird - it's definitely strictly confined in all cases.