[07:15] <lordievader> Good morning
[11:16] <lotuspsychje> good noon to all
[15:18] <oerheks> SO .. Avast is a virus that keeps other virusses away .. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qjdkq7/avast-antivirus-sells-user-browsing-data-investigation
[15:25] <tomreyn> oh, so all the urls the user visits are not only uploaded to detect threats then, who would have ever imagined?
[15:26] <pragmaticenigma> I love it when it's the Anti-Viruses fault... It's not Avast Anti-Virus... it's a browser plugin that you optionally install
[15:26] <pragmaticenigma> but no one reads the prompts when installing anything... or more importantly... bothers to chose "custom install" and would see that little gem
[15:49] <leftyfb> tomreyn: where did they mention tomcat?
[15:50] <tomreyn> leftyfb: nowhere, i'm just trying to point out that there is a myriad of projects under the apache software foundations' umbrella
[15:51] <leftyfb> nobody installed tomcat by accident ;)
[15:51] <leftyfb> installs*
[15:52] <tomreyn> i guess the http server package being called 'apache' doesn't exactly help, even if it's for historical reasons.
[15:53] <tomreyn> the rpm distros made a better naming choice there
[16:04]  * pizzaiolo wonders if there's apache2, what happened to apache1?
[16:05] <daftykins> that's not a very complicated question
[16:43] <marcoagpinto> Heya!
[16:44] <marcoagpinto> guys?! Does Ubuntu support images in the title bar of the window? PaintShopPro 2019 for Windows has a logo in the title bar instead of text
[16:44] <marcoagpinto> :)
[16:50] <akemhp> I guess you can have skinned windows yes, back in the days there was xmms, it was all skinned IIRC like Winamp.
[16:50] <marcoagpinto> ahhhh
[16:50] <marcoagpinto> good to know
[16:50] <marcoagpinto> :p
[16:50] <marcoagpinto> thanks
[16:51] <marcoagpinto> now I just need to win the EuroMillions tomorrow and ask the developer of PureBasic to implement it :p
[16:52] <akemhp> You do some PureBasic on Linux?
[16:52] <marcoagpinto> yes
[16:52] <daftykins> waste of time, silly idea
[16:52] <akemhp> Ok.
[16:52] <marcoagpinto> there is a Windows+Linux+Mac version
[16:52] <marcoagpinto> :)
[16:52] <marcoagpinto> daftykins: :((((((((
[16:55] <akemhp> Well, on Linux there is also Python and Ruby.
[16:55] <akemhp> They are very good languages with lots of extensions.
[16:56] <marcoagpinto> I am a lazy arse... I will only code in PureBasic
[16:56] <marcoagpinto> :)
[16:56] <akemhp> I use Ruby.
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> since it is not what I make a living, I will only use PureBasic
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> akemhp: https://proofingtoolgui.org/default.htm#whypurebasic
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> :)
[16:59] <marcoagpinto> "use the best tool for the job"
[17:00] <akemhp> Not my job either, i just like the language a lot.
[17:00] <marcoagpinto> ahhhh
[17:00] <marcoagpinto> just like me
[17:00] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:00] <akemhp> Yeah i have another friend who was doing PureBasic.
[17:00] <akemhp> But on Windows.
[17:01] <marcoagpinto> I wanted to suggest to the developer to only support Ubuntu 18.04 and above :)
[17:01] <marcoagpinto> but I need to win the EuroMillions to pay to him to do that
[17:01] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:01] <marcoagpinto> and Windows 7+
[17:05] <daftykins> Windows 7 is EOL now :) no more support needed
[17:05] <marcoagpinto> I know
[17:06] <marcoagpinto> daftykins: but Windows 7 users may get offended if support is removed
[17:06] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:07] <marcoagpinto> just like Windows Vista... there are tons of people using it, so I had to release a "legacy" UK speller for Thunderbird and Firefox
[17:07] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:08] <daftykins> you should never enable holdouts
[17:08] <marcoagpinto> a what?
[17:08] <daftykins> people unwilling to move with the times
[17:08] <marcoagpinto> well, not everyone can afford a new computer
[17:08] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:09] <marcoagpinto> it took me 11 years to buy a powerful one
[17:09] <pragmaticenigma> marcoagpinto: It's not about cost of a new computer. It's that the system is not receiving updates from its manufacturer and thus becoming more and more vulnerable to attacks, malware and viruses being allowed to continue working on the Internet
[17:10] <marcoagpinto> ahhhhhhh
[17:10] <pragmaticenigma> It's that it puts everyone else at risk, it reduces the quality of the experience for everyone else as well... Botnets are not cool
[17:10] <marcoagpinto> ahhhhhh
[17:11] <marcoagpinto> well, Nero is still using Visual Studio 2010 or so :)
[17:11] <pragmaticenigma> Visual Studio isn't an entire operating system
[17:11] <marcoagpinto> I know
[17:11] <marcoagpinto> but I get annoying with it installing DLLs from 2010
[17:12] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:12] <marcoagpinto> can't they afford Visual Studio 2019?
[17:12] <pragmaticenigma> I don't understand where you're going with this line of thought
[17:12] <daftykins> they don't need a new computer to run a newer Windows typically
[17:13] <pragmaticenigma> To me "Nero" is a CD burning utility from the early 2000's
[17:13] <marcoagpinto> ahhhh... what I mean is that they are still releasing software based on very old machines and software
[17:13] <daftykins> they develop against a different set of components, those redistributables don't need to have the current year on them
[17:13] <marcoagpinto> daftykins: it is in the app panel :) the year and version of the files
[17:14] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:14] <akemhp> Well if your hardware was made especially for/with Windows 7 in mind, it may not even be able to correctly run Win 10 (for Windows users obviously), so you just keep Win7, it's not like it will suddently stop to work.
[17:14] <akemhp> And there is probably no appropriate drivers for such machines for Win10 anyway.
[17:14] <daftykins> akemhp: 100% false they are quite comparably light
[17:14] <daftykins> marcoagpinto: you don't understand, the class of component means the age isn't relevant
[17:15] <daftykins> so you are judging something without the understanding of what it is
[17:15] <marcoagpinto> ahhhhhh
[17:15] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:15] <akemhp> daftykins, I run Win7 with old dual core and 2GB of RAM.
[17:15] <daftykins> right
[17:15] <akemhp> And i have an old laptop which has no correct graphic drivers on Win 10
[17:15] <pragmaticenigma> akemhp: I've installed windows 10 on a 32bit Celeron from 2004... it ain't pretty, but it was functional
[17:15] <akemhp> For the 3D acceleration part.
[17:16] <daftykins> i think you'd be dreaming to be after anything 3D to begin with then
[17:16] <marcoagpinto> well, yesterday I updated the BIOS of my Lenovo... and it crashed when I pressed the proceed button
[17:16] <marcoagpinto> :p
[17:16] <marcoagpinto> it crashed Windows 10 with a blue screen
[17:16] <daftykins> doesn't sound like you updated it then
[17:17] <marcoagpinto> luckily I was able to boot and retry...
[17:17] <marcoagpinto> it seems the BIOS update needed to be done alone of other updates
[17:17] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:17] <akemhp> Well there was already 3D games and software...
[17:17] <pragmaticenigma> sounds like someone didn't read all the instructions either...
[17:17] <marcoagpinto> I was very lucky not to damage my computer
[17:17] <daftykins> yes always - and with no programs open ideally
[17:17] <akemhp> Anyway that's not the appropriate channel for Windows stuff :P
[17:18] <daftykins> akemhp: that's a very weak argument, times change
[17:18] <pragmaticenigma> marcoagpinto: Every BIOS update utility I've worked with has always included the words "Only run on a fully updated OS, and make sure all other programs are closed when running the update utility"
[17:18] <daftykins> yep methinks the user did not read (:
[17:18] <pragmaticenigma> A pebkac is not a bug
[17:18] <akemhp> The only real option for older hardware is Linux, like LUbuntu. But not Windows 10.
[17:18] <marcoagpinto> pragmaticenigma: I read that... but the window didn't say I couldn't run the other Lenovo updates... there were several updates
[17:19] <marcoagpinto> I selected all the updates and clicked in the update button
[17:19] <pragmaticenigma> marcoagpinto: How do you think those updates are installed??? They use a program to run... hence, Do not run other programs
[17:19] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:20] <marcoagpinto> I now know :)
[17:20] <marcoagpinto> but yesterday I didn't
[17:20] <pragmaticenigma> all that sugar is affecting your eyesight
[17:21] <marcoagpinto> :(((((((
[17:21] <daftykins> never smart to leave those manufacturer update checkers installed, too
[17:21] <daftykins> sounds like a factory install - nasty stuff
[17:23] <marcoagpinto> daftykins: yes, I know, but there is an app for Lenovo updates
[17:23] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:23] <marcoagpinto> it autoruns on the background and checks for updates
[17:23] <daftykins> yes and should never be left installed
[17:23] <daftykins> nor even factory installs kept
[17:24] <marcoagpinto> but... it had a nVidia driver update too
[17:24] <marcoagpinto> after I installed nVidia update, it rebooted my laptop
[17:24] <daftykins> so?
[17:25] <marcoagpinto> only BIOS + nVIdia were left after the blue screen crash
[17:25] <marcoagpinto> so, I installed one at a time
[17:26] <marcoagpinto> it was such a scary experience... my body still shakes when I think of it
[17:26] <marcoagpinto> :(
[17:28] <pragmaticenigma> marcoagpinto: which is why it was recommended that you remove the lenovo app
[17:34] <marcoagpinto> pragmaticenigma: but it shows the free nvidia RAM, computer RAM, HDD space, CPU load and such
[17:34] <marcoagpinto> it shows all details I need to know
[17:34] <daftykins> that is complete rubbish, all those features are found elsewhere in Windows
[17:35] <daftykins> if you read more news you'd know that these update utilities have been taken over with malware on multiple manufacturers systems
[17:35] <marcoagpinto> ohhhhhh
[17:35] <marcoagpinto> I didn't know that
[17:37] <pragmaticenigma> nvidia control centre is going to give you more accurate measurements about your graphics card, especially compared to what ever the software devs and lenovo managed to reverse engineer to get it to work "for now"
[17:38] <marcoagpinto> daftykins: pragmaticenigma: https://i.imgur.com/1DxkfQ6.png
[17:38] <marcoagpinto> here is what it shows
[17:38] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:38] <marcoagpinto> it has an "update system" button
[17:38] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:38] <marcoagpinto> now I won't press it again
[17:39] <daftykins> there's nothing wrong with doing updates, just remove the program
[17:39] <daftykins> i don't need to be shown what it looks like, i've worked on all brands of system
[17:40] <marcoagpinto> ahhhh
[17:40] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:40] <marcoagpinto> oki
[17:42] <pragmaticenigma> marcoagpinto: Press "Ctrl + Shift + Esc" ... make sure it's in the "More details" mode... then click the performance tab
[17:43] <pragmaticenigma> all the same information is right there
[17:43] <pragmaticenigma> in fact... more information is available there, including operating temperatures, capacity, utilization, activty, and more
[17:44] <pragmaticenigma> all built in to windows
[17:45] <marcoagpinto> ohhhhhh
[17:45] <marcoagpinto> :(
[19:45] <hggdh> !19.04
[20:25] <marcoagpinto> !20.04
[20:26] <pragmaticenigma> so an hour long debugging session ended with not understanding localhost interfaces
[20:32] <sarnold> heh, fgunny, I figured it was due to not understanding tcp, instead :)
[20:52] <merliner> Hello. From a Debian server background to an Ubuntu desktop experience, I'm finding several new things to learn about, and I'm starting with apparmor and snap packaging, both of which could be candidates for not yet having the full support and endorsement of the user community. Would anybody like to share their experience with these features, positive or negative?
[20:53] <daftykins> snapd is the first thing i purge
[20:53] <daftykins> apparmor has never gotten in my way
[20:54] <daftykins> i mostly use ubuntu with servers though, in fairness
[20:54] <merliner> That's quite the fair distinction. Snaps look more GUI oriented to me.
[20:55] <merliner> I don't need beta/edge versions.
[20:56] <daftykins> there seem to be multiple methods around to try and package up fully compatible software with their dependencies, to avoid the woes of support i suppose across different distros and releases... the question is whether you trust a software maker or packager to 1) update the .deb 2) update the flatpak/snap/latest buzzword
[20:57] <oerheks> some complaint about te snap size, never about dependencies
[20:59] <daftykins> well there's the security implications of an included component falling behind
[20:59] <daftykins> i've always touted that one :D
[21:01] <tomreyn> merliner: my main gripes with snaps are (1) total lack of transparency, (2) no way (AFAIK) to have control on installed versions, (3) vendor lock-in
[21:02] <merliner> My tripping point was with the thunderbird email client, throwing audit: errors but not having an apparmor profile in /etc/apparmor.d/
[21:03] <tomreyn> the containment is actually a good thing, i guess, as long as it's enabled.
[21:03] <merliner> Not sure if I can transition my thunderbird installation from the snap version to the deb version.
[21:04] <tomreyn> is there still a deb version then?
[21:04] <merliner> I'm all for the apparmor containment strategy. I like that initiative, but lose track of the way it's handled by snapd.
[21:05] <oerheks> snapcraft gives the same version 68.4.1
[21:05] <oerheks> so yes, you can switch to deb
[21:05] <oerheks> but i wonder why apparmor is not correct, should it be in the ~/snap/thunderbird folder?
[21:06] <merliner> I probably ended up with the snap version of tbird because the deb version wouldn't import my config from Win7 .... but then neither did the snap version.
[21:06] <tomreyn> yes, looks like the thunderbird deb's are not just transitional to snaps, yet
[21:06] <merliner> they aren't yet 'stable' in snap.
[21:07] <daftykins> mail clients in 2020 ;)
[21:07] <daftykins> import and export have been sorely lacking for way too long
[21:08] <oerheks> maybe install thunderbird with the --classic option, to get out the confinement.. but that has serious questions too
[21:08] <merliner> They're a drag. I tried several email clients and am generally not nearly as happy as I was with PMMail in OS/2 ten years ago.
[21:09] <merliner> (or twenty)
[21:09] <oerheks> https://snapcraft.io/search?q=mail there is also hiri and mailspring
[21:10] <merliner> I think I've tried them all ;-}
[21:13] <merliner> I've got to go out now however; .... may be back in a couple hours. Thanks all.
[21:14] <daftykins> np
[21:17] <Bashing-om> UWN615 is on the streets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue615 :D
[22:26] <sarnold> merliner: please do file bugs about apparmor confinement on the snap packages; whoever is packaging it ought to know that it isn't working for you. They'll want DENIED lines from your dmesg, and maybe a quick description of what you were doing
[22:40] <tomreyn> which brings up the question on how to file bugs against snaps
[22:40] <sarnold> tomreyn: yes :(
[22:42] <daftykins> get a bottle, empty it however you see fit, write your bug report on a scroll, roll it up - put a cork in - and toss it into the nearest ocean
[22:43] <sarnold> "your message is important to us; we'll respond to the bottles in the order we receive them"
[22:45] <tomreyn> i've been doing this all my life, until they reported about the great pacific garbage patch. and they never told me to use glass bottles only.
[23:06] <merliner> Best I can tell, they're using the forum for deficiency discussions; probably a package thread under the Snap category.
[23:31] <oerheks> snap info <snap> gives contactadress or url, sometimes a nice url to launchpad, see  https://askubuntu.com/a/1142328
[23:32] <oerheks> i hope some day this is integrated in ubuntu-bug routine
[23:32] <oerheks> with a juicy extra; stable beta edge versions