[02:29] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[07:30] <lordievader> Good morning
[15:28] <nedR> lotuspsychje, haha i said all i needed to say at this point.. just icewm is awesome... didn't try lxde/xfce which is whole window manager.. oh ya another correction.. last week i believe i i said benchmarks showed lxde as having high input lag and xfce as low..  i got it mixed up.. lxde is the one with low input lag... but icewm seems to be even lower
[15:28] <nedR> lxde xfce is *whole desktop environment
[15:28] <lotuspsychje> nedR: did you install preload & haveged aswell?
[15:29] <lotuspsychje> and stacer
[15:29] <nedR> lotuspsychje, err no.. why?
[15:29] <lotuspsychje> to boost your system even more
[15:31] <nedR> lotuspsychje, oh no yeah you did mention... i forgot.. no i will check those out definitely thanks again
[15:31] <nedR> "preload, haveged, bleachbit, stacer, tweak startup items, tweak system services," is what you said
[15:31] <lotuspsychje> yep
[15:32] <nedR> so many tools to look up, hehe, its exciting.. already know bleachbit tho
[15:42] <nedR> Another persistent problem in linux is that filled ram causes a crash at all in the first place...  i have allocated 7gb swap space but it barely uses that.. usually when systems goes below 50mb free, the whole system locks up with little to know recourse
[15:42] <nedR> seems a long-running bug... or does it just happen to me
[15:44] <daftykins> how much RAM are we talking? never once seen someone have issues
[15:44] <nedR> daftykins, very low - 4gb ram
[15:44] <daftykins> hmm not sure why you would do that to yourself :D
[15:44] <nedR> maybe ppl with high ram don't notice the bug
[15:45] <lotuspsychje> nedr is a linux gamer daftykins :p
[15:45] <daftykins> not on 4GB you're not
[15:45] <nedR> linux lowspec gamer... i tux on hard mode :D
[15:45] <daftykins> that swap is definitely turned on, right o0
[15:45] <daftykins> please say it's not an HDD install too?
[15:45] <nedR> 5400 most likely.. 10 year old laptop running core2duo intel gma
[15:45] <nedR> :D
[15:46] <daftykins> why keep using it?
[15:46] <nedR> old pc died , between situations currently
[15:47] <nedR> all you guys are about saving the planet and greta thunenberg and all that but when some one tries to use 10 year old pc the question 100% of time is why
[15:47] <lotuspsychje> 10y old pc's consume alot of energy :p
[15:47] <oerheks> i think it is good to use old hardware, i run a vista-capable desktop
[15:47] <daftykins> yep, gotta cut out inefficiency
[15:47] <nedR> its a laptop... seems to be a regular old adapter.
[15:48] <lotuspsychje> ask an ssd for your birthday nedR
[15:48] <nedR> u know very well that most of a electronics items lifetimes co2 happens during manufacture and shipping.. stop justify buying new crap all the time!!
[15:49] <nedR> lotuspsychje, haha yeah .. but need a new computer overall anyway
[15:49] <daftykins> you come in here with problems on decade old equipment, i'm going to state what i believe in
[15:49] <oerheks> to save €2/month by buying new low energy hardware, no
[15:49] <daftykins> please don't bring up an attitude in here
[15:50] <daftykins> it's about a hell of a lot more than that, intel abandoned the core 2 range from getting any microcode fixes for the big design issues revealed over the last couple of years
[15:51] <nedR> lol ya i was half-joking, but maybe other half not so much.. actually been using linux on off over 10 years.. linux is not exactly power-efficient
[15:51] <oerheks> if i was scares, i would jump to Ryzen
[15:51] <nedR> doesn't linux version get the patches?
[15:52] <daftykins> oerheks: from core 2's? that doesn't make any sense
[15:52] <daftykins> core 2 didn't get microcode mitigations at all, nor the first 2 or 3 generations of core series
[15:53] <nedR> this is from 2010 i think ... might be the last of them.. will google
[15:53]  * oerheks runs Intel® Core™ i3 CPU 530 @ 2.93GHz × 4
[15:54] <daftykins> it's not important
[15:54] <nedR> but ya over 10 years... ppl always say buy new hardware, chuck your junk... but os should be about 'do more with less ' not other way round
[15:55] <nedR> this laptop actually works better than my previous 'better' nvidia optimus ones lol
[15:55] <daftykins> well if you want to try and begin a one-man fight against all developers to try and undo their ways of making new things chunkier, go for it - but i don't think you have a chance :)
[15:56] <daftykins> hybrid graphics ones were always a pain to deal with under Linux yeah, not a lot of surprise it's easier to manage
[15:57] <nedR> gnome does quite well actually on this hw all things considered... not complaining on that front...
[15:58] <daftykins> i think people have wildly different perceptions of what running well is, i bet a single youtube browser tab brings that thing to its' knees :)
[15:58] <daftykins> anyway i suppose i should feel lucky that you're not trying to fight for 32-bit in here
[16:00] <nedR> well since i game on linux, i did fight for that before lol.. when ubuntu tried to ditch 32-bit support
[16:01] <daftykins> slightly different
[16:01] <nedR> daftykins, not really.. u would be surprised.. its not that bad.. i do have to close and open firefox/chrome if the ram dangerously approaches full.. hell vlc allows me to play x265 videos without issue even :D (seeking may take some time though)
[16:02] <nedR> So does noone have the ram/swap bug? or do you not face it because your ram never gets full?
[16:02] <daftykins> no there's no way a core 2 is playing HEVC content fine
[16:02] <nedR> i guess my eyes must be lying to me then... :DD
[16:02] <daftykins> i really think something is wrong with your swap setup, it should take the pressure off that surely
[16:03] <daftykins> unless it's a super low resolution HEVC file :P
[16:03] <nedR> i had this issue on my previous laptop too... so i dont think its just me.. u r saying that ur system uses swap fine? mine barely uses 10-20% at  the most... right now i am at 85% ram used, 2% swap used for example
[16:05] <nedR> daftykins, 720p mostly, i think i have had 1080p high quality files too but bit longer to load i think.. vlc really is amazing... initilaly even my previous newer laptop had issues with it...
[16:05] <lotuspsychje> try smplayer its even lighter use
[16:05] <daftykins> on a c2d you'd be stuck at software decode only for HEVC so that'd be pretty taxing
[16:06] <nedR> will check it out thanks... ofc hw acceleration for x265 is key..
[16:06] <daftykins> maybe some processes aren't the kind that can be shifted into swap, or maybe the vm.swappiness variable should be checked
[16:06] <nedR> i dunno how vlc does it.. i think it buffers longer to make up for slow cpu.. cuz seeking is slow depending on file ... couple of seconds
[16:07] <daftykins> probably just slower to sync from the previous keyframe
[16:07] <nedR> what is ur average swap usage? does it go above 1gb swap used say?
[16:08] <daftykins> i'm not on a Linux desktop today
[16:08] <nedR> ah ok.. searching online ppl do complain of this problem.. but i dont know if its for everybody (which i suspect) or just few users..
[16:09] <nedR> https://askubuntu.com/questions/41778/computer-freezing-on-almost-full-ram-possibly-disk-cache-problem
[16:11] <daftykins> see the reference to vm.swappiness as i mentioned above
[16:11] <nedR> my swapiness is default 60
[16:11] <oerheks> without HW specs, that post is pretty .. useless
[16:11] <daftykins> oerheks: my thoughts too
[16:11] <oerheks> ond the golden rule of thumb: if you cannot recreate the issue with a fresh install..
[16:12] <nedR> i had this issue on previous laptop too.. and i always setup swap when installing ubuntu...
[16:12] <nedR> it was fresh install
[16:13] <nedR> shall i try swapiness of 10.. ? recommending by ubuntu wiki?
[16:13] <lotuspsychje> nedR: dont tweak swappiness on a spinner and 4gb ram
[16:14] <oerheks> there are no white-spot issues anymore to do that.
[16:15] <nedR> lotuspsychje, ok.. ya it seems not the issue.. i dunno i used windows before on previous craptop.. but windows never seems to get itself to point of 100% non-responsiveness due to full memory
[16:15] <lotuspsychje> nedR: can you pastebin an inxi -F of your system?
[16:16] <nedR> ok will do...
[16:23] <nedR> lotuspsychje, https://pastebin.com/vWqGE1ga .. removed some info if u dont mind : https://pastebin.com/vWqGE1ga
[16:27] <lotuspsychje> intel mobile graphics oof..
[16:27] <nedR> imagine gaming on that :D
[16:27] <Ussat> solitare
[16:27] <lotuspsychje> lol
[16:29] <nedR> https://askubuntu.com/a/1045919 I think this might the problem and solution... the way it happens to me.. linux seems to wait until way too late to swap out stuff then gets stuck in endless loop of swapping in and out of RAM/HDD ... sometimes waiting 10-20 minutes allows enough responsiveness to manually kill some process..
[16:29] <lotuspsychje> !swap | nedR
[16:30] <nedR> i am aware of what swap is.. but way i experience it... once ram goes below 50mb there is very little chance of system recovering... and by then 90%+ of swap is completely one used.. just my feeling on matter.. i will try out the fix
[16:31] <nedR> swap is completely *unused
[16:32] <nedR> i can play cs 1.6, terraria (now), stardew valley, gta 3 , games like that on linux
[16:33] <lotuspsychje> gta3 on intel mobile graphics?
[16:33] <daftykins> sure, it came out on the PS2 originally
[16:33] <nedR> yep.. gta 3 is like the first 3d gta
[16:34] <nedR> gta games of that era are very optimized for low-end systems, vice city, san andreas..
[16:34] <daftykins> not a term i would use xD
[16:34] <nedR> which term?
[16:36] <daftykins> optimisation on PC ports :D
[16:36] <nedR> haha.. i dunno.. either way, those games always used to run decently on underpowered systems
[16:38] <daftykins> speedruns of those are pretty amusing if you've not checked them out
[16:42] <nedR> You know its not just me and my craptop though... gamers are always looking for that extra edge... if linux can provide extra fps to them.. then gamers will seriously consider linux.. rocket league gamers break their back to get extra fps (and lower latency) on their top-end systems
[16:43] <nedR> majority of  DEs though seem to be not as good as windows on average though for input lag/fps from the benchmarks i have seen , anyway
[16:44] <nedR> gnome , lxde seems to do well
[16:44] <pragmaticenigma> nedR: that statement completely ignores the archetectual differences between platforms
[16:44] <nedR> pragmaticenigma, true.. but my statement is  based on a rough survey of different benchmarks from different ppl running different platforms
[16:46] <nedR> there is definitely huge variability in results, but some overall patterns/trends can be noticed
[16:49] <pragmaticenigma> I think you're also forgetting ... PCs where designed to be productive, not entertainment. Linux comes from a long line of distros that have had the focus on productivity and serving. Entertainment is secondary and an after thought. Therefor, with a GUI, the purpose was driven more towards an office worker, not a gamer.
[16:50] <pragmaticenigma> Newer GUIs are attempting to make bridges to increase productivity by allowing actions that normally would require launching an entire program, to be contained in something smaller
[16:52] <pragmaticenigma> most of what you have said so far is completely anecdotal. Also, the games your looking at were written to work with a Windows based PC... you're going to take a performance hit running it in Linux, because there are compatibility layers written to get it to execute. With that, there will always be reduced performance just from the way the game is being run. Not even considering the desktop gui being used.
[16:53] <pragmaticenigma> nedR: There is a reason that Steam choose Debian 8 over Ubuntu for their Steam OS platform... I'd start your researching there
[16:56] <nedR> pragmaticenigma, well ya obviously windows games are expected to run better on windows... i was comparing linux native to windows native..
[16:56] <nedR> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/cii545/linux_input_lag_analysis_v26des_windows_10_1809/ https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel-8400-desktops&num=5  https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/c0ly6b/linux_input_lag_analysis7des_tested_windows/ These are some examples i was talking about
[16:58] <nedR> This one is more mixed, KDE vs gnome seem indistinguishable : https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bionic-kde-gnome&num=4
[16:58] <nedR> This one completely flips it tho : https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gaming-desktop-eoy2018&num=2 .. seems wayland has gotten very good recently.. and differences between DEs is almost indistinguishable
[16:59] <nedR> Yeah, my point was with steam/proton linux has a really chance to attract desktop users, since linux is so configurable... we just need linux devs to give more attention.. and new benchmarks seem to indicate that they are
[16:59] <pragmaticenigma> All of these are generalizations
[17:01] <nedR> well yeah, surveys and benchmarks and overall opinions are generalizations.. individual results will be different
[17:02] <nedR> On this "Newer GUIs are attempting to make bridges to increase productivity by allowing actions that normally would require launching an entire program, to be contained in something smaller" ... don't want to get into this but, i felt i could do more with older DEs gnome 2 , unity than i do today but thats my 2 cents :)
[17:03] <nedR> don't want to start a war there :D
[17:04] <pragmaticenigma> I don't like the paradigm of DEs today. I hate when the DE tries to employ a feature that I used a program in the past for
[17:04] <nedR> pragmaticenigma, preach bro
[17:06] <nedR> i have felt that way with ubuntu over 10 years...  everytime i update my distro i feel a need to change my workflow :/ it can be pretty stressful...
[17:06] <lotuspsychje> evolution
[17:06] <Ussat> whats a DE :) all of my nix systems are servers with cli only
[17:07] <pragmaticenigma> I plan on giving GnomeShell a shot here... but I'm tempted to just keep moving more toward LXDE
[17:07] <nedR> lotuspsychje, but its a huge mental load.. relearning shortcuts , commands.. and if the changes were one direction for the better i could understand.. but it feels very schizophrenic overall
[17:08] <nedR> ubuntu will swap from rhythmbox to clementine.. then back again..
[17:08] <lotuspsychje> nothing a purge cant fix
[17:08] <nedR> you mean purge like install or purge like the movie... if the latter , i agree :D
[17:09] <pragmaticenigma> nedR: That's just the default set of apps being installed... nothing prevents you from installing the application of your choice and removing what you don't want
[17:09] <lotuspsychje> you can tweak any Os the way you like
[17:10] <daftykins> if you can't adapt to change in your OS, i have bad news for you xD
[17:10] <pragmaticenigma> and if having all that installed by default is a problem... it's why I intall via mini.iso... get the base Ubuntu going first... then install the DE, and programs I desire
[17:10] <Ussat> ^^^
[17:10] <Ussat> so much that
[17:11] <nedR> pragmaticenigma, yeah in that case i was like "rhythmbox - weird- okay i will try it out" , "oh clementine fine i will give it a shot, maybe its better" "Rhythmbox again... sonofabi..."
[17:11] <nedR> i just use vlc now
[17:11] <oerheks> "ubuntu looks bloated"  .. i laugh when i read that
[17:12] <nedR> which file managers do you guys use...
[17:13] <lotuspsychje> good ol nautilus
[17:13] <oerheks> nautilus and some plugins
[17:13] <pizzaiolo> nautilus++
[17:13] <nedR> nautilus - recursive search on type ; thunar no recursive search (and the extension is annoying)... is there anything with sane defaults that does both like nautilus used to in gnome2
[17:14] <nedR> oh is there something that brings back the old search behaviour of gnome2 nautilus?
[17:14] <oerheks> 'sane defaults'...?
[17:14] <oerheks> you make things up, what is wrong with nautilus in gnome3?
[17:14] <nedR> for me that would be nautilus on gnome 2
[17:18] <lotuspsychje> https://www.deviantart.com/search?q=lotuspsychje
[17:18] <lotuspsychje> some progress over the years
[17:22] <nedR> noice
[17:23] <lotuspsychje> earliest was on an amd 3200+ with 4gb ram and ati x800
[17:31] <nedR> i properly started out on ubuntu 10.04 (or was it 11.04?) the last one with gnome2.. everything felt just perfect on that, battery life better than windows, ui better than windows, just better .. then unity came and for some reason and some major kernel regression coupled with optimus woes that caused my laptop to overheat and die (i had one of those faulty nvidia gpus that would die on overheating, yay)..  unity was laggy and broke lot of stuff but
[17:31] <nedR> over time i l really liked the ui innovations and by the time i learnt to love unity,   then ubuntu went ahead and killed that too :(
[17:33] <ducasse> nedR: unity is still available in the repos, although it's in a sort of maintenance mode
[17:34] <nedR> ducasse, ya, i know, it seems more trouble than its worth at this point to get it up and running.. especially on my current laptop...
[17:36] <pragmaticenigma> unity was okay... I didn't understand it's purpose, and even less now that it's on the community to support it
[17:37] <nedR> pragmaticenigma, i liked the menu bar thing a lot... the way it saved vertical space.. and typing to search menu commands too..
[17:37] <pragmaticenigma> unless I'm mistaken... Gnome-Shell has the same features
[17:38] <nedR> via extensions u mean? i dunno i had some issues with that when i looked into it before.. does anyone use them now?
[17:39] <pragmaticenigma> I guess I don't know what you define as "menu bar"
[17:39] <nedR> i mean the title bar, menu bar, and the top unity bar were all combined into 1
[17:39] <nedR> and you could search commands by typing alt
[17:40] <nedR> menu commands
[17:40] <lotuspsychje> gnome-panel?
[17:40] <nedR> lotuspsychje, is that what the top bar is called? yeah
[17:41] <lotuspsychje> unity had the choice to see menu items in window or the panel, is that what you mean?
[17:41] <pragmaticenigma> nedR: the merging of the application menu into the top bar of the DE was a gnome-shell feature first. It was later dropped because app developers didn't appreciate their menu's being stripped out of the applications where people where accustomed to finding them
[17:42] <lotuspsychje> or you mean gnome2 style panel with items on?
[17:42] <pragmaticenigma> the same argument the developers are using in asking DEs to stop skinning their icons
[17:42] <pragmaticenigma> lotuspsychje: He's talking about the top bar, where the time and notifications are displayed.
[17:43] <pragmaticenigma> When you launched some applications, the "File, Edit, etc" menu drawers were relocated into to the DEs top bar
[17:45] <nedR> yes.. everything on 1 bar instead of 4... really appreciated that feature ,  especially on firefox
[17:46] <nedR> and also the alt + type menu command... you could do a lot with gui applications without taking hand off keyboard
[17:47] <nedR> i will try again to get those gnome extensions if they're there now
[17:49] <nedR> Unite gnome extension seems to do this...
[17:50] <nedR> sortof...
[17:51] <nedR> not as well as unity tho... sigh
[17:52] <nedR> ok i gonna keep searching.. thanks for putting up with my talk/rant
[17:54] <oerheks> no no i love a good argument
[17:54] <lotuspsychje> lol
[17:55] <lotuspsychje> 1 or 1000
[17:55] <Ussat> Well.......lets see, politics/religion/chocolate & penut butter or penut butter and chocolate
[17:55] <Ussat> coke or pepsi
[17:55] <Ussat> :)
[17:55] <lotuspsychje> forbidden Ussat only ubuntu here :p
[17:55] <oerheks> yum
[17:56] <Ussat> apt or apt-get :)
[17:56] <oerheks> a snap that transforms appimage/flatpak
[18:45] <sarnold> peanut butter and chocolate, good idea
[20:24] <TJ-> Can anyone recommend a known-good dual-band 802.11a(c) mini PCI-e that uses fully open drivers (presumably Atheros or Intel) for upgrading an old (2007) laptop? Chipset model code is what I'm after
[20:26] <leftyfb> Atheros aren't open source
[20:26] <oerheks> i would standard say intel, https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000005511/network-and-i-o/wireless-networking.html
[20:26] <oerheks> good list, with supported kernels
[20:29] <TJ-> I've had a lot of issues with bugs in the iwlwifi drivers over the last 2 years or so with various different Intel chipsets so considering an alternative
[20:32] <TJ-> leftyfb: The ath9k driver is fully open-source and doesn't require a firmware blob , e.g. AR5BXB112 (AR9380)
[20:33] <leftyfb> TJ-: ah, not the ath10k
[20:34] <TJ-> leftyfb: right; we've got a bunch of 2007 Asus laptops I just want to add 802.11a (5GHz) access to (currently 2.4GHz only)
[20:34] <TJ-> I'm hoping to order a sample tonight so it arrives tomorrow and if it works we can buy a bunch of them
[20:36] <oerheks> oh, one without firmware..
[20:36] <TJ-> I'm trying to confirm the ath9k driver is the one required for the AR5BXB112 chipset so I don't trip up :)
[20:36] <TJ-> oerheks: "without firmware" isn't essential but would be nice to have since my experience with Intel's that require FW is that's often where some of the weird bugs are manifesting
[20:38] <TJ-> We're going to operate these laptops for Community/Maker Space guests and I'm setting a 5GHz only rule to avoid typical 2.4GHz band congestion
[20:38] <TJ-> So our APs will only use 802.11a band
[20:39] <daftykins> 2007 :(
[20:39] <TJ-> daftykins: with SSDs they fly
[20:39] <TJ-> perfectly usable
[20:39] <daftykins> laughable :)
[20:39] <daftykins> hf
[20:41] <TJ-> If software is so bloated it cannot function satisfactorily on these, it simply doesn't get installed/used/site-visited or whatever.
[20:41] <TJ-> I'm not here to pander to dev's who don't know how to tie their own shoe-laces
[20:43] <TJ-> I took my apprentice on a visit to the Science Museum, and National Museum of Computing this week, and he was blown away by the still-working pre-digital and first digital-based computers running on analogue, or basic valve tech, filling large parts of a room. Made him realise what is possible with good engineering. Then his father sent him a message asking "...but can it run Facebook?" :D
[20:46] <daftykins> i've pointed out youtube before as an example you forget, but you disregard it because you don't use it personally
[20:46] <TJ-> daftykins: I ban it
[20:46] <TJ-> signal to noise ratio is too low
[20:47] <daftykins> maybe in a work context, yeah
[20:47] <TJ-> In all
[20:48] <sarnold> but so many good conerts
[20:48] <sarnold> concerts, too
[20:48] <TJ-> sarnold: so much time wasted
[20:49] <TJ-> what a video takes 500MB to convey, can be done in text + photos in 5MB or less, and is easier to digest and disect
[20:49] <daftykins> sarnold: there we go, you're only allowed to download the sheet music at TJ-'s place ;)
[20:49] <daftykins> why not -ac over -a too?
[20:50] <TJ-> ac isn't essential ... main requirement is using the 802.11a band... also MIMO considerations and the number of antennas
[20:51] <sarnold> heh, my favourite concerts are apparently in the 1.1 to 1.3 gb range :)
[20:52] <TJ-> sarnold: concerts are for attending, not videos :)
[20:52] <sarnold> TJ-: that is better, yes :)
[20:53] <TJ-> as in "shared experience" not passive consumption
[20:55] <TJ-> One of our innovation/maker-space activities is to simulate the 1990s Internet connections (56/64K modems) to educate our folks on how not to waste bandwidth and to focus on a decent signal to noise ratio in content design and transmission
[20:56] <sarnold> "why is my reaction gif taking twenty seconds to load?"
[20:57] <sarnold> "you could use this time to tell osomeone why you dislike their idea"
[20:59] <TJ-> The flip-side is, optimising for this means in current applications your application/service/site will absolutely FLY compared to most others, and users notice the seemingly incredible reaction speed and lack of spinners and delays in reacting
[21:01] <TJ-> The problem being, shallow knowledge in many devs mean they shovel abstractions and frameworks and 3rd part libraries into their applications without any consideration for performance... often because the dev's get to use the latest fastest powerful systems and don't consider what a fair number of their target market might be using.
[21:06] <sarnold> that reminds me of navigating around projects hosted on https://sourcehut.org/
[21:06] <sarnold> it's *so* responsive it's incredible
[23:26] <oerheks> uh oh https://thehill.com/policy/technology/483750-trump-administration-backs-oracle-in-supreme-court-battle-against-google
[23:27] <daftykins> oh dear :(
[23:28] <oerheks> could well be a push that helps Oracle loose :-D
[23:28] <jeremy31> Like an overdose of exlax?
[23:29] <oerheks> i think both are right, google should have created their own api structure and names. oracle should not prevent such api.
[23:40] <jeremy31> I don't think shrinking the Windows install from Windows is needed anymore.  The Ubuntu installer should handle it fine
[23:45] <oerheks> i would avoid alignment and antivirus issues by doing so.
[23:45] <oerheks> i hope he moves it to the end :-D